Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MattD121 07-20-04, 09:40 PM	How many times has a golem severly ****** off your sorceror? Or why is it half the bosses in a campaign are purely immune to all of your spells? Nothing is worse than a spell immune creature to a spell caster. Here are some cheap tricks for a caster to deal with godsdamned golems. Some of these may be annoying and unfair, but so are spell immune creatures. 1. Summoning- Now I dont just mean summoning up a creature but heres something really tricky you can do. Take a collosal creature of your choice (Celestial Blue Whale is one of my favorites) and put it in a spell storing dagger. Next teleport far away. Cast vanish on the dagger and have it appear directly above your foe's head. Now activate it. Watch the distance in amusmant as a collosal whale turns your enemy into a pancake. (Can anyone say hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy?) 2. Control Weather/Control Water- Now if you use the same magic system as my group a Fireball is not actually fire. It is just magic acting as fire. However when you summon up a storm there is nothing magical about the tornados and lightning. Nor is there anything magical about the whirlpool. Although a lot of these are suicidal there is always the teleport trick. 3. Evocation- I love casters who love evocation. Its like Final fantasy, the best spells are the damage dealing ones. But gennerally this school of magic is useless against spell immune creatures. However the terrain, (At least I think) isnt spell immune. So, the next time the golem is stalking towards you put it in a crater and blow up the cliff above it. Maybe destroy the ceiling above it to crush it. Getting through afterwards shouldnt be a problem, your an evocation mage remember? 4. Another thing are those who can "reflect" spells. An infuriating move that normally entails the enemy punching your spell back at you. This can be avoided by aiming your meteor swarm 20 feet away. The enemy is still in the AOE but cannot reflect it (unless of course this is a huge or larger creature but this is usually medium-sized monks). 5. The ultimate trick to pull on your DM. Make a prestige class, it could be a wizard for all practical purposes but add one little side note "At level 7 the Magi chooses one of their spells to become part of them, making it supernatural..." it looks so harmless at first. Once again many of these would be described as "Munchkinizing" or "Cheesy" its my opinion that you should never use these against a non-spell-immune creature but its really the anti-magic creatures that are the munchkins...
Ogre4Hire 07-21-04, 12:04 AM	Vs creatures with high SR or a golem's spell immunity. Most spells from the Conjuration school don't check SR. That means that you're free to hammer the annoying Stone Golem or Rakshasa with Melf's Acid Arrow all day long. AoE spells are uneffected by Spell Turning. Spell Turning only works on spells with range greater than Touch that target a single creature. If it's a case of Energy Resist/Immune, a sorcerer with one level of Archmage and Energy Mastery can't be beat. The spell slot you lose is not such a hardship when you can simply bombard that irritating Balor with Sonic damaging Fireballs and Chain Lightnings. Spells never effect the terrain unless they specifically say so in their description. This is why you don't cause forest fires when you try to obliterate the attacking trolls. However, Disintigrate can target objects. If you happen to be standing over a long drop, try disintigrating the floor under the enemy. Or the support colum he's standing next to. It's bound to leave a lasting impression.:devil: Various Wall spells are also usefull. If you can't hurt the damn things, you can at least slow them down so that the group can take them on one at a time. Note that most creatures that lack an INT score will not consider a Wall of Iron or Wall of Stone as a valid target, and Walls of Force, Fire, and Ice are excellent ways to slow down and isolate groups of enemies. Finally, Telekinesis is just possibly one of the most versitile spells available. Disarm Archers, Bull-rush enemies off cliffs or into traps (hintWallofFirehint) or simply Violent Thrust boulders at them.
Escef 07-21-04, 09:11 AM	Originally posted by MattD121 Take a collosal creature of your choice (Celestial Blue Whale is one of my favorites) and put it in a spell storing dagger. Next teleport far away. Cast vanish on the dagger and have it appear directly above your foe's head. Now activate it. Watch the distance in amusmant as a collosal whale turns your enemy into a pancake. (Can anyone say hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy?) Ok, this doesn't work. You can't summon an aquatic creature to an area outside of the water. Nor can you summon a creature into thin air. And how exactly do you intend to activate the dagger when it isn't in hand? Originally posted by Ogre4Hire Spells never effect the terrain unless they specifically say so in their description. This is why you don't cause forest fires when you try to obliterate the attacking trolls. Actually, yes they can. If a fireball can burn through doors, why not trees? It is something most DMs don't take into account because it is just too much work for too little gain. If you hit a stone floor with enough fire damage you can liquify it. It takes a LOT of damage, but it can be done. You just have to get by hardness, keep in mind the damage may be halved (or even quartered), and deal enough damage to "destroy" the stone. But this only goes an inch down, the rest of the floor has cover from the layer of molten rock above it.
Seeker95 07-21-04, 09:28 AM	There are many ways to affect creatures with SR or immune to magic. And there are many threads that list pages of suggestions on how to accomplish this.
Zherog 07-21-04, 10:03 AM	Originally posted by MattD121 1. Summoning- Now I dont just mean summoning up a creature but heres something really tricky you can do. Take a collosal creature of your choice (Celestial Blue Whale is one of my favorites) and put it in a spell storing dagger. Next teleport far away. Cast vanish on the dagger and have it appear directly above your foe's head. Now activate it. Watch the distance in amusmant as a collosal whale turns your enemy into a pancake. (Can anyone say hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy?) As has been pointed out, this doesn't work for several reasons. First, to activate the dagger, it has to be in your hand. Second, when you conjure a creature, it must appear on a surface capable of supporting it. 2. Control Weather/Control Water- Now if you use the same magic system as my group a Fireball is not actually fire. It is just magic acting as fire. However when you summon up a storm there is nothing magical about the tornados and lightning. Nor is there anything magical about the whirlpool. Although a lot of these are suicidal there is always the teleport trick. These work, but there's better ways. 3. Evocation- I love casters who love evocation. Its like Final fantasy, the best spells are the damage dealing ones. But gennerally this school of magic is useless against spell immune creatures. However the terrain, (At least I think) isnt spell immune. So, the next time the golem is stalking towards you put it in a crater and blow up the cliff above it. Maybe destroy the ceiling above it to crush it. Getting through afterwards shouldnt be a problem, your an evocation mage remember? Actually, Evocation is one of the weakest schools. 4. Another thing are those who can "reflect" spells. An infuriating move that normally entails the enemy punching your spell back at you. This can be avoided by aiming your meteor swarm 20 feet away. The enemy is still in the AOE but cannot reflect it (unless of course this is a huge or larger creature but this is usually medium-sized monks). I'm really curious how a monk is "reflecting" spells back at you. And your Meteor Swarm answer doesn't pass the test - it allows Spell Resistance to anybody within the area of effect. 5. The ultimate trick to pull on your DM. Make a prestige class, it could be a wizard for all practical purposes but add one little side note "At level 7 the Magi chooses one of their spells to become part of them, making it supernatural..." it looks so harmless at first. Perhaps it would slip past your DM, but I know I would catch that. Once again many of these would be described as "Munchkinizing" or "Cheesy" its my opinion that you should never use these against a non-spell-immune creature but its really the anti-magic creatures that are the munchkins... You're ideas are neither "munchkin" (well, the last one is, since you're intentionally looking to break the syste) nor cheesy. What they are is lame.
meabolex 07-21-04, 11:00 AM	Here's a list of sorc/wiz spells that work on creatures regardless of spell resistance. This list doesn't count self-only buffs -- only spells that either can target enemies, that can have enemies in their area of effect, or that can interact directly with other creatures count. Stars indicate which spells deal damage through without spell resistance. I ignore most of the (conjuration) calling spells, since those are obviously not subject to spell resistance. 1st - Grease Obscuring Mist Silent Image Ventriloquism Animate Rope 2nd - Melf's Acid Arrow * Fog Cloud Glitterdust Web Detect Thoughts Darkness Minor Image Pyrotechnics (Smoke Cloud) 3rd - Dispel Magic Sepia Snake Sigil Sleet Storm Stinking Cloud Daylight Major Image 4th - Evard's Black Tentacles * Solid Fog Locate Creature Hallucinatory Terrain Illusory Wall 5th - Cloudkill * (ability damage) Wall of Stone Wall of Force False Vision Mirage Arcana Persistent Image Telekinesis (Violent Thrust hurling an object) * Transmute Mud to Rock Transmute Rock to Mud 6th - Greater Dispel Magic Acid Fog * Wall of Iron * Analyze Dweomer Mislead Permanent Image Programmed Image Control Water 7th - Forcecage Project Image Control Weather * Reverse Gravity * 8th - Incendiary Cloud * Discern Location 9th - Mordenkainen's Disjunction So, given this list, we see that spells not affected by SR are fairly numerous through the first two-thirds of the game, but then they tend to get less and less after 6th level, reducing to only one spell at 9th level. The shortage of SR-less spells during the later levels can be mitigated slightly by metamagic -- but you'll probably get more mileage out of party buffs than actual attack spells during that time.
eca 07-21-04, 11:27 AM	is pollymorph other affected by SR? (it probably is but i just want to make sure)
MattD121 07-21-04, 01:24 PM	Hmm so far the only thing you have against me is that you cant summon a whale out of water. So make it a roc. It dosent matter if its summoned in the air and it will take it a minute to start flying so it works just as well. Anyway a spell does affect terrain but only for the duration of the spell. Thats why a door can be blown down by a fireball but a forest wont burn away. So if you cast is in a forest it will destroy some trees yea but it wont spread. At least thats my take on it. im not sure what you consider munchkinziing but i think "lame" and "unfair" is a pretty good description. As for evocation being a weak school I have NO idea what your smoking. It takes 4 restricted schools and your balls just to specialize in it. Oh and zheorg read epic level handbook. Its not SR at all its an ability.
Escef 07-21-04, 01:35 PM	Originally posted by MattD121 Hmm so far the only thing you have against me is that you cant summon a whale out of water. And you can't activate a magic item that you don't have on your person. :D
MattD121 07-21-04, 08:04 PM	Even with spell storing daggers? Darn well then I guess you choose a smaller creature or use heightened spell.
Zherog 07-22-04, 11:11 AM	Originally posted by MattD121 Hmm so far the only thing you have against me is that you cant summon a whale out of water. So make it a roc. It dosent matter if its summoned in the air and it will take it a minute to start flying so it works just as well. I'm sorry to say, but you're wrong. Look at the magic overview section of your player's handbook, under the Conjuration school. You'll see something very similar to this (which is from the SRD): A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. It can't be floating in empty space - even if it's a bird. Anyway a spell does affect terrain but only for the duration of the spell. Thats why a door can be blown down by a fireball but a forest wont burn away. So if you cast is in a forest it will destroy some trees yea but it wont spread. At least thats my take on it. These work. Whether it spreads or not is open to interpretation, since (using Fireball as an example) unattended objects can catch fire. im not sure what you consider munchkinziing but i think "lame" and "unfair" is a pretty good description. "Munchkinizing" is intentionally ignoring one rule to gain a better benefit from another rule. Cheating, in other words. As for evocation being a weak school I have NO idea what your smoking. It takes 4 restricted schools and your balls just to specialize in it. In 3.0, that's true. And the entire school can be reproduced by two Illusion spells - Shadow Evocation and Greater Shadow Evocation. Oh and zheorg read epic level handbook. Its not SR at all its an ability. What the hell are you talking about? In the core rules immunity is unbeatable spell resistance. If you cast a spell that says, "Spell Resistance: No" the creature is affected. Period. meabolex provided a list of all the core spells that would work on a creature "immune" to spells (a golem, for example).
Ertai Planeswalker 07-22-04, 05:33 PM	They way i understood it, in 3.5 spell immunity means unbreakable SR. So spells that do not require SR affect golerms normally.
Zherog 07-22-04, 08:00 PM	Originally posted by Ertai Planeswalker They way i understood it, in 3.5 spell immunity means unbreakable SR. So spells that do not require SR affect golerms normally. Exactly correct. I vaguely recall the same thing being in 3.0, but it's been too long for me to remember for sure.
Jurosem 07-22-04, 08:36 PM	Golem Magic Immunity goes beyond merely being unbeatable SR. They are also immune to supernatural effects and energy attacks except as noted in their descriptions. And Zherog, when Matt said read the epic rule book for information on Monks, he was refering to their ability to deflect (or reflect) ray spells as though they were missiles, which has nothing to do with SR or spell immunity, so what the hell are you talking about? ;)
Zherog 07-22-04, 09:32 PM	Originally posted by Jurosem And Zherog, when Matt said read the epic rule book for information on Monks, he was refering to their ability to deflect (or reflect) ray spells as though they were missiles, which has nothing to do with SR or spell immunity, so what the hell are you talking about? ;) Well, duh! Non-epic rules, obviously. :D
MattD121 07-22-04, 10:07 PM	Well its just another anoying anti-magic type thing. Anyway Ive just found a way to *%&^ on your argument. Your enemies head is a surface is it not? Ohhh touché. And I guess ive been wrong about munchkinizing I always thought it was twisting rules and using them unfairly not actually breaking them. I always thought the word for that was just cheating. Shadow evocation isnt nearly as reliable as a good old fireball. Sorry to say it.
Seeker95 07-22-04, 10:19 PM	Originally posted by MattD121 Shadow evocation isnt nearly as reliable as a good old fireball. Sorry to say it. Don't be sorry. It's a true statement. Except that a fireball is just a fireball every single time you cast it, while shadow evocation is whatever evocation spell you need at the time. So you can have fireball, or you can have the following 25 spells with shadow evocation: Flare Light Dancing Lights Ray of Frost Burning Hands Magic Missile Shocking Grasp Tenser's Floating Disk Darkness Gust of Wind Scorching Ray Continual Flame Flaming Sphere Shatter Daylight Fireball Leomund’s Tiny Hut Lightning Bolt Wind Wall Shout Otiluke's Resilient Sphere Wall of Ice Fire Shield Ice Storm Wall of Fire Heck, my sorcerer gets all 25 of these spells with one shadow evocation, and another 18 spells with shadow conjuration. Versatility any day!
Zherog 07-22-04, 10:28 PM	Originally posted by MattD121 Well its just another anoying anti-magic type thing. Anyway Ive just found a way to *%&^ on your argument. Your enemies head is a surface is it not? Ohhh touché. No, actually, Let's try again... A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The ball's back in your court. ;)
Seeker95 07-22-04, 11:01 PM	Zherog... If your opponent is a blockhead, perhaps his skull is thick enough to support it. Beware getting into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. You may have the obvious advantage, but when they land a blow, it hurts the pride all the worse!
AmbiguousAkira 07-23-04, 05:35 AM	Here's a fun thing to do to pretty much anything in your way, including those nasties that are immune to magic. Create a wall of iron, push the wall over on to the enemy (telekinesis is a good one for that). Should anything survive the crushing damage, which is similar to a cave-in, simply cast heat metal to burn them away as they try to get the friggin' wall off their head. If they are immune to fire, chill metal instead.
diablos666 07-23-04, 05:54 AM	If there's a golem coming towards you, use Polymorph Any Object to liquify the floor and watch him sink into it. Then maybe leave him to thrash around or re-solidify the floor. Fun!
Sweet Steph 07-23-04, 06:18 AM	Originally posted by MattD121 Your enemies head is a surface is it not? If your DM is so stupid as to buy that line, I'm glad to not be in that game. One might as well say that airborne particles of dust constitute a surface.
meabolex 07-23-04, 08:06 AM	Originally posted by Jurosem Golem Magic Immunity goes beyond merely being unbeatable SR. They are also immune to supernatural effects and energy attacks except as noted in their descriptions. That's how the term "Magic Immunity" is defined in the 3.0 Epic Handbook. In the 3.5 core books, the term "Magic Immunity" simply means: [A creature with magic immunity is] immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. So, supernatural effects and energy effects (the flaming mod on a flaming sword) work normally on golems.
MattD121 07-23-04, 10:56 AM	Lol 4 people thought I was serious when I said "Your enemies head is a surface isnt it?" What is this world coming to when people cant detect a simple joke.... Anyways ambigous I like your idea :) although isnt chill and heat metal divine whereas wall of iron is arcane? I could be wrong there. And as for shadow evocation being 25 spells... I say its not as reliable because a wizard can make a simple concentration check to know your casting shadow evocation. Then they take 1/5 damage, if they have time to yell to their allies not to beleive in it they also take 1/5 damage. Although it dosent matter with certain spells it almost always will matter with an evocation spell and therefore counters your entire argument. Geeze people cant take a joke these days...
Sweet Steph 07-23-04, 06:24 PM	Joking/sarcasm/spite/whatever doesn't come across very well in plain text, especially when one doesn't use emoticons to make the point clear.
Escef 07-24-04, 07:42 AM	Originally posted by MattD121 And as for shadow evocation being 25 spells... I say its not as reliable because a wizard can make a simple concentration check to know your casting shadow evocation. Then they take 1/5 damage, if they have time to yell to their allies not to beleive in it they also take 1/5 damage. Although it dosent matter with certain spells it almost always will matter with an evocation spell and therefore counters your entire argument. Actually, that would be a spellcraft check, and only while casting, IMX, players don't ask for the check. And the DM shouldn't be telling the players they took 1/5th damage, because they beleive the remaining 4/5ths is real unless they make a save.
MattD121 07-24-04, 10:45 PM	What? If they took 1/5 damage then they know it was shadow evocation... maybe if its a particularly uneducated group the DM would say "You notice something translucent and fake, you take 9 damage" and if the group didnt catch on that it was a pitiful amount of damage so the enemy must have screwed up in some way (well first off the group is retarted) but second of all they still made the save so... who cares? Also, the group gets to make the save the spell normally allows too so, in the end, shadow evocation is less reliable then a normal spell... theres really no denying it, its meant to be that way. Im kind of against emoticons... ever since they made them into little pictures rather than simple text things. Next time Ill be more obvious for the "special" folk.
WizO_Catoblepas 07-25-04, 01:17 AM	Personally, I always liked the oldie but goodie one of Transmute Rock to Mud followed by Transmute Mud to Rock. However, on a more official tone, let's keep the posts to the subject matter of the thread, not other guests. When it come to sarcasm, it really doesn't convey that well on the boards since much of sarcasm is in body language as well. Thus, this is the reason why the WizOs aren't really big on it on the boards. When in doubt, post politely. I've never seen anyone get an official warn for doing that.
MattD121 07-25-04, 12:58 PM	Alright alright I didnt mean any offence