Casting and touching and what not. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Casting and touching and what not. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Trollios
10-24-06, 09:48 PM There's no rules questions area any more, so I hope this is the right area.
OK, I'm going to try and do this with visuals, so bear with me.

First off, assume, everyone is wielding long swords.

My DM says that if you reach into a square that's threatened, you suffer an Attack of Opportunity.

XBXX
XXFX
XXPX

So, if my Priest is standing at P, and casts a spell, he does NOT get an AoO from the Badguy (B), but to deliver a touch spell to Fighter (F) like CLW, I suffer an AoO from bad guy B.

Same deal if

XBXX
XPFX
XXXX

If I'm standing directly in front of bad guy B, and cast defensively, He stills gets no AoO on P for casting, but does suffer one for touching Fighter F.

XBXX
XXFX
XXXX
XXPX

and if P stands here casts a touch spell which can be held,
then next round steps 5 ft. forward to deliver touch spell

XBXX
XXFX
XXPX

P gets AoOed for reaching into threatened square F to deliver the touch spell.

or same deal but with P one square left so moving

XBXX
XXFX
XXXX
XPXX

move to

XBXX
XXFX
XPXX

He says eeven though P is not in range of B, B gets an AoO because P had to reach into F's square.

Note these are all beneficial spells so they don't follow the rule as a touch spell is considered to be armed.

Does my DM have this right? and can anyone give me definitive proof that says one way or the other, because apparently there are various ways it is said in the 3.5 PHB that do not agree with each other and absolutely nothing in the FAQ or Errata.

Of course, I can't find where it says you suffer an AoO for reaching into a threatened square, but that's what my DM says, so does my DM have it right? and if not, what evidence is there that it is not?

Thanks for for helping me out with any answers.
Trollios
10-24-06, 10:06 PM Another thing he says is the P must succeed a touch attack on F to cast even a protective spell, because the fighter doesn't know a beneficial spell is coming up behind him, but I'm willing to accept this solely as a house rule, because the book does explicitly say you can touch one friend automatically.
Forged_Fury
10-25-06, 12:01 AM Lose your "DM". That's retarded.

As far as rules go...
Threatened Squares
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.
You really have to think of this on the combat grid. In order to provoke, you must cast the spell while within the threatened area, which you aren't doing. If you are adjacent to a character, you can touch them and not "enter" their space. You therefore do not draw an AoO.
An example where it is specified in the rules that you must enter someone's space is the rules concerning Grapple.

As for the touch attack to hit the willing target, it's unneeded as you have already pointed out.

Lose him.
-Forged_Fury
Ogre4Hire
10-25-06, 12:14 AM 1: You must threaten (be able to strike with a melee weapon with no cover) to make an AoO.

2: Touch Attacks do not provoke an AoO (certain things that require a touch attack, like Tripping or Grappling, provoke AoOs, but the touch attack itself does not).

3: You can always cast beneficial spells on someone. Always. There is nothing anywhere in the standard rules that says otherwise (there might be something in the variant rules, but that doesn't count for this arguement).
MarkB
10-25-06, 08:03 AM Another thing he says is the P must succeed a touch attack on F to cast even a protective spell, because the fighter doesn't know a beneficial spell is coming up behind him, but I'm willing to accept this solely as a house rule, because the book does explicitly say you can touch one friend automatically.
kay, so not only is your DM utterly abusing the AoO rules, he's also trying to have things both ways - saying that you don't count as armed with a touch spell, but that you do have to use a touch attack to deliver that spell. Basically, your DM is just nuts.

Aside from anything else, there is no facing in D&D. If you're on one side of the fighter and his opponent is on the other, the fighter is nevertheless able to look around himself enough during each 6-second round to have situational awareness, and know that you're standing there preparing to cast a spell on him. Even if that weren't the case, your character could simply tell him.
The_Jester
10-25-06, 11:29 AM It sounds like another victim of the AoO rules. :(

Read and re-read what was said here and tell your DM "what you found" before your next game. Don't tell him he was wrong, say you were curious because you didn't understand and want to share what you've just read.

Assume he just goofed on the rules but don't be confrontational or hold it over his head.
Trollios
10-25-06, 02:14 PM 1: You must threaten (be able to strike with a melee weapon with no cover) to make an AoO.

2: Touch Attacks do not provoke an AoO (certain things that require a touch attack, like Tripping or Grappling, provoke AoOs, but the touch attack itself does not).

3: You can always cast beneficial spells on someone. Always. There is nothing anywhere in the standard rules that says otherwise (there might be something in the variant rules, but that doesn't count for this arguement).

1. he says because I'm reaching into a square that is considered threatened, that's why I'm threatened by AoO

2. It's not a touch attack, it's a beneficial touch spell, which the PHB says nothing about being treated as being armed, so for sake of agreement, I'll say even though I have a touch spell with the charge held, I'm considered unarmed.

3. the questions isn't whether I can cast the spell, it's whether or not I can do the touch into a threatened square, whether the bad guy gets an AoO for reaching into a threated square and if he gets the AoO, does it disrupt the spell?
MarkB
10-25-06, 02:59 PM 1. he says because I'm reaching into a square that is considered threatened, that's why I'm threatened by AoO
He's wrong. The opponent must be threatening the square you're standing in.

2. It's not a touch attack, it's a beneficial touch spell, which the PHB says nothing about being treated as being armed, so for sake of agreement, I'll say even though I have a touch spell with the charge held, I'm considered unarmed.
You're also not taking an action that provokes an AoO. "Deliver a Touch spell to an ally" does not provoke.

3. the questions isn't whether I can cast the spell, it's whether or not I can do the touch into a threatened square, whether the bad guy gets an AoO for reaching into a threated square and if he gets the AoO, does it disrupt the spell?
You don't provoke an AoO, and even if you did, the reaching out part occurs after you've completed casting, so you wouldn't lose the spell.

Basically, your DM doesn't have a leg to stand on for any of this.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Trollios 10-24-06, 09:48 PM	There's no rules questions area any more, so I hope this is the right area. OK, I'm going to try and do this with visuals, so bear with me. First off, assume, everyone is wielding long swords. My DM says that if you reach into a square that's threatened, you suffer an Attack of Opportunity. XBXX XXFX XXPX So, if my Priest is standing at P, and casts a spell, he does NOT get an AoO from the Badguy (B), but to deliver a touch spell to Fighter (F) like CLW, I suffer an AoO from bad guy B. Same deal if XBXX XPFX XXXX If I'm standing directly in front of bad guy B, and cast defensively, He stills gets no AoO on P for casting, but does suffer one for touching Fighter F. XBXX XXFX XXXX XXPX and if P stands here casts a touch spell which can be held, then next round steps 5 ft. forward to deliver touch spell XBXX XXFX XXPX P gets AoOed for reaching into threatened square F to deliver the touch spell. or same deal but with P one square left so moving XBXX XXFX XXXX XPXX move to XBXX XXFX XPXX He says eeven though P is not in range of B, B gets an AoO because P had to reach into F's square. Note these are all beneficial spells so they don't follow the rule as a touch spell is considered to be armed. Does my DM have this right? and can anyone give me definitive proof that says one way or the other, because apparently there are various ways it is said in the 3.5 PHB that do not agree with each other and absolutely nothing in the FAQ or Errata. Of course, I can't find where it says you suffer an AoO for reaching into a threatened square, but that's what my DM says, so does my DM have it right? and if not, what evidence is there that it is not? Thanks for for helping me out with any answers.
Trollios 10-24-06, 10:06 PM	Another thing he says is the P must succeed a touch attack on F to cast even a protective spell, because the fighter doesn't know a beneficial spell is coming up behind him, but I'm willing to accept this solely as a house rule, because the book does explicitly say you can touch one friend automatically.
Forged_Fury 10-25-06, 12:01 AM	Lose your "DM". That's retarded. As far as rules go... Threatened Squares You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity. You really have to think of this on the combat grid. In order to provoke, you must cast the spell while within the threatened area, which you aren't doing. If you are adjacent to a character, you can touch them and not "enter" their space. You therefore do not draw an AoO. An example where it is specified in the rules that you must enter someone's space is the rules concerning Grapple. As for the touch attack to hit the willing target, it's unneeded as you have already pointed out. Lose him. -Forged_Fury
Ogre4Hire 10-25-06, 12:14 AM	1: You must threaten (be able to strike with a melee weapon with no cover) to make an AoO. 2: Touch Attacks do not provoke an AoO (certain things that require a touch attack, like Tripping or Grappling, provoke AoOs, but the touch attack itself does not). 3: You can always cast beneficial spells on someone. Always. There is nothing anywhere in the standard rules that says otherwise (there might be something in the variant rules, but that doesn't count for this arguement).
MarkB 10-25-06, 08:03 AM	Another thing he says is the P must succeed a touch attack on F to cast even a protective spell, because the fighter doesn't know a beneficial spell is coming up behind him, but I'm willing to accept this solely as a house rule, because the book does explicitly say you can touch one friend automatically. kay, so not only is your DM utterly abusing the AoO rules, he's also trying to have things both ways - saying that you don't count as armed with a touch spell, but that you do have to use a touch attack to deliver that spell. Basically, your DM is just nuts. Aside from anything else, there is no facing in D&D. If you're on one side of the fighter and his opponent is on the other, the fighter is nevertheless able to look around himself enough during each 6-second round to have situational awareness, and know that you're standing there preparing to cast a spell on him. Even if that weren't the case, your character could simply tell him.
The_Jester 10-25-06, 11:29 AM	It sounds like another victim of the AoO rules. :( Read and re-read what was said here and tell your DM "what you found" before your next game. Don't tell him he was wrong, say you were curious because you didn't understand and want to share what you've just read. Assume he just goofed on the rules but don't be confrontational or hold it over his head.
Trollios 10-25-06, 02:14 PM	1: You must threaten (be able to strike with a melee weapon with no cover) to make an AoO. 2: Touch Attacks do not provoke an AoO (certain things that require a touch attack, like Tripping or Grappling, provoke AoOs, but the touch attack itself does not). 3: You can always cast beneficial spells on someone. Always. There is nothing anywhere in the standard rules that says otherwise (there might be something in the variant rules, but that doesn't count for this arguement). 1. he says because I'm reaching into a square that is considered threatened, that's why I'm threatened by AoO 2. It's not a touch attack, it's a beneficial touch spell, which the PHB says nothing about being treated as being armed, so for sake of agreement, I'll say even though I have a touch spell with the charge held, I'm considered unarmed. 3. the questions isn't whether I can cast the spell, it's whether or not I can do the touch into a threatened square, whether the bad guy gets an AoO for reaching into a threated square and if he gets the AoO, does it disrupt the spell?
MarkB 10-25-06, 02:59 PM	1. he says because I'm reaching into a square that is considered threatened, that's why I'm threatened by AoO He's wrong. The opponent must be threatening the square you're standing in. 2. It's not a touch attack, it's a beneficial touch spell, which the PHB says nothing about being treated as being armed, so for sake of agreement, I'll say even though I have a touch spell with the charge held, I'm considered unarmed. You're also not taking an action that provokes an AoO. "Deliver a Touch spell to an ally" does not provoke. 3. the questions isn't whether I can cast the spell, it's whether or not I can do the touch into a threatened square, whether the bad guy gets an AoO for reaching into a threated square and if he gets the AoO, does it disrupt the spell? You don't provoke an AoO, and even if you did, the reaching out part occurs after you've completed casting, so you wouldn't lose the spell. Basically, your DM doesn't have a leg to stand on for any of this.