Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Novacat 04-17-07, 10:28 PM	So I'm assembling a castle for my PCs to invade in my game soon. I want there to be devices and puzzles strewn throughout the castle. In particular, the PCs should be unable to reach the highest point of the castle without visiting most of the areas (at least one or two rooms on each of the four floors). I hereby request ideas, suggestions, etc. I'm also accepting ideas for general traps, puzzles, encounters, and the like. Info: The party is 6th level, will possibly be higher by the time they get through the castle. The castle was once inhabited by a VERY wealthy baron who was slightly paranoid about people finding his secret treasure, but is now occupied by a Vampire who has many minions. Therefore, magical forms of protection, or very complicated mechanical protections are possible.
Seeker95 04-18-07, 08:35 AM	As far as keeping them out of the top one or two rooms... you could pull a Myst requirement: levers that must be set at different points around the castle. However, a part of me says (screams, actually) that if I *lived* in the castle, I would not want to have difficulty getting into my private sanctum. So why would I make it even possible (much less "necessary") to do so? Instead, perhaps the only entry to the top level is from the Master's suite or study? A portal, secret stairway, etc.
Leilond 04-18-07, 08:41 AM	There are two ways to enter the top rooms The master key (that is in the master hands in the top, so they cannot have it without entering) The two (or more) "sub-master" keys used IN THE SAME TIME. In this way your character must find the sub-masters rooms to find their keys Obviously the top rooms doors must have a open lock DC of 200 to be sure not to be opened. They must be inside an "antimagic field" or a "death magic" field to be sure they don't find a magical manner to enter or open. The walls must be "adamantium" walls (or permanent "force walls") or your characters will say you "Ok, let's break this wall with our picks" (my players always have two picks with them to demolish walls when there's no stealth necessity)
CharlieRock 04-18-07, 09:12 AM	Why not pattern the design after a spiral. You'd have to walk up a steadily elevating ramp style walkway between rooms as you go around and around. Don't set off the trap. A large boulder will come rolling down those ramps. Gaining momemtum. Too bad no one will see it before it picks up an atrocious amount of speed and rounds the next corner in front of the party.
Leilond 04-18-07, 09:15 AM	Why not pattern the design after a spiral. You'd have to walk up a steadily elevating ramp style walkway between rooms as you go around and around. Don't set off the trap. A large boulder will come rolling down those ramps. Gaining momemtum. Too bad no one will see it before it picks up an atrocious amount of speed and rounds the next corner in front of the party. Well... it's not very belivable that everytime the boss have to go to his room he have to walk all rooms It's a castle, design it as a castle
_Jayne_Cobb_ 04-18-07, 10:36 AM	The main defense mechanism of a castle is to keep people out. The main defensive devices inside a castle are spiral staircases and armed men. Once your enemy is inside the castle it is pretty much game-over for the residents. No matter how paranoid someone is about guarding their treasure, human nature will always win out. No one, beyond the seriously OCD, will traverse the entire length and breadth every time they want to get a snack or let the dog out. No one. Think about it realistically. No matter how paranoid you are you are not going to plant land mines in the front hall and make the only entrance to your bedroom a hatch in the roof.
CharlieRock 04-18-07, 10:46 AM	Well... it's not very belivable that everytime the boss have to go to his room he have to walk all rooms It's a castle, design it as a castle Secret passageway up the middle. With an elevator even. :cool:
Leilond 04-18-07, 10:51 AM	Secret passageway up the middle. With an elevator even. :cool: And the players will use the secret passage instead of using the stairs :P
RobbyPants 04-18-07, 11:09 AM	The party is 6th level, will possibly be higher by the time they get through the castle. Just make sure you keep spells in mind like Fly, Dimension Door, and Teleport. The players are likely to get mad at you if they try to bypass some door/trap/whatever, and then, after-the-fact, you tell them they can't for some bizare, contrived reason. Make sure you take things like that into account ahead of time! I remember this riddle/trap we were supposed to bypass in a game I played in. The idea behind the trap was quite interesting, but the implementation of it wasn't. There were about half a dozen ways around it, the the DM had to keep preventing by re-explaining the layout. It kind of kills the suspension of disbelief, and lead the party to think that nothing-you-try-will-work-unless-you-try-what-I-want-you-to-try.
Leilond 04-18-07, 11:20 AM	Just make sure you keep spells in mind like Fly, Dimension Door, and Teleport. The players are likely to get mad at you if they try to bypass some door/trap/whatever, and then, after-the-fact, you tell them they can't for some bizare, contrived reason. Make sure you take things like that into account ahead of time! I remember this riddle/trap we were supposed to bypass in a game I played in. The idea behind the trap was quite interesting, but the implementation of it wasn't. There were about half a dozen ways around it, the the DM had to keep preventing by re-explaining the layout. It kind of kills the suspension of disbelief, and lead the party to think that nothing-you-try-will-work-unless-you-try-what-I-want-you-to-try. Very good point
CharlieRock 04-18-07, 11:59 AM	And the players will use the secret passage instead of using the stairs :P Not when I stick a search DC you wouldn't believe on it. :P (they may use it to get down though) I've ran Sunken Ziggurat (http://www.goodman-games.com/5022preview.php). It had some neat puzzles to it. You could just waltz past them. You wouldn't like what happened though. And you had to go to each room (well, almost) to get the puzzle solved.
CryoSilver 04-18-07, 02:04 PM	Have the castle built as a spiral, but with many teleportation circles or portals scattered around that can only be activated by having the right "key." Accessing higher levels requires either wading through the castle physically, or finding the right key.
Echo_that_Pains 04-18-07, 02:25 PM	Heres a thought that someone in the past has brought up (in a Lich's Plycharty thread) that could be used here very well. In the "secret treasure" area (or other such type of area, it works well) have 1 or 2 small holes in the wall that pass from one side to the other. The only way to enter into that room is going to be using the Gaseous Form spell (wizard/sorcerer 3) which would allow the vampire to access these rooms as well. They can then drift into the room in gaseous form through the small hole(s). From there, you can have a lever inside the room to open a door or a 1/way portal that will get the characters out of the room back into the hallway.
Thought 04-18-07, 02:38 PM	Not when I stick a search DC you wouldn't believe on it. :P (they may use it to get down though) Of course, as we all know DC is supposed to be a mathematical representation of real-world factors. So I must ask, what will you use to justify such a large DC? I know that as a player I would ask that. "What? I rolled 35 on my search check, how could I not have noticed that there was a secret passage in here before?!" "The DC was 500." "What? Why?" "Because... um... oh look, something shiney! *runs away*" Your best bet might actually be to trick the PCs into not noticing it. "I look in that hole over there" "The stench of human waste is nearly overpowering. Congratulations, you've found the secret passage... I mean, toilet."
Stormonu 04-18-07, 05:38 PM	Some interesting ideas: The "main entrance" is a false entry that leads into a chamber that is a sealed deathtrap (steel/stone door, water trap, murder holes or the like) To actually enter the real castle, there is a faded slogan carved into one wall on the way to the trapped room. The slogan is a "reminder" or riddle. If the correct word is spoken, it opens a passwall into the castle proper. The stairwells are filled with solid stone between levels. Each stairwell has a slogan/riddle on it. When the correct word is spoken, an ethereal passage through the stone forms. The portals are one way, designed either to only allow movement up the stairs or down the stairs (via a modified Freedom of Movement spell known as Restriction of Movement). Further, they could be trapped with a glyph that Dispels Magic on the passageway, dumping the unfortunate adventurers into solid stone. Certain doors do not not have conventional locks. Instead, they have circular slots that accept specially created wands of knock to open them. The surface of the doors have been treated that regular attempts to use knock do not work, and they may have been permanently enchanted with Repulsion spells to prevent characters from reaching them to batter them down. The topmost tower appears ghostly, for it is not on the prime material plane, but magically displaced to another plane. To access the tower, four items must be collected from within the castle and placed in special niches at the base of the tower. Only once all four items are collected (or fascimiles created of the items, say via Minor Creation spell (especially nasty, if over the years, one of the four items has been destroyed or lost), will allow the tower to manifest and be entered. There may be a time limit on how long the tower may manifest, or the danger if one of the items is removed from the niche, the tower will vanish. The vault itself is contained within a Mordenkainen's Magnificient Mansion that has been made permanent on the top floor. The treasure has been affected by a Mass Shrink Item spell and attached as decorations to a cloak, and the room they are in is under the effect of a Vanish spell to protect them from location by divination,
taradusis 04-18-07, 08:54 PM	Perhaps scatter a few "resource wasters"around.I placed a statue of a gargoyle in a dungeon a week after the party lost a PC to gargoyles.The party used holy water,arrows and spells on the statue before the dwarf ran up and bashed it to pieces with his hammer.I also had a necromancer who stuffed orcs and left them as decorations,the thief snuck up and backstabbed one.One orc had crawling claws hidden inside.RANDOM THOUGHTS
daggeroflath 04-19-07, 01:26 AM	As far as keeping them out of the top one or two rooms... you could pull a Myst requirement: levers that must be set at different points around the castle. However, a part of me says (screams, actually) that if I *lived* in the castle, I would not want to have difficulty getting into my private sanctum. So why would I make it even possible (much less "necessary") to do so? True, but if I were a vampire with a bunch of minions who I mind-control telepathically, having ten levers in different places that need to be pulled wouldn't be that much of an inconvenience. Generally I find anything that you can do really easily, that's hard for others is a good technique for such things. A bard might have a treasure vault that opens when you sustain a particular note perfectly, etc, etc, etc. Deadlocks and alarm systems prove people are willing to exchange some convenience for security.
Seeker95 04-19-07, 09:49 AM	True, but if I were a vampire with a bunch of minions who I mind-control telepathically, having ten levers in different places that need to be pulled wouldn't be that much of an inconvenience.The vampire didn't build the castle. The previous owner was the paranoid owner that installed whatever barrier to access we are trying to devise. Even with paranoia, he would not create an entrance mechanism that prevented *him* from getting access to his treasure.
Sajek 04-19-07, 10:41 AM	If you need some traps, check here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=674705
CharlieRock 04-19-07, 10:42 AM	Of course, as we all know DC is supposed to be a mathematical representation of real-world factors. So I must ask, what will you use to justify such a large DC? I know that as a player I would ask that. Magic. The secret passage was magically hidden. You have a decent chance of finding it from the top room. But it was magically hidden from the bottom. Some things are going to be impossible to do no matter what your skill roll is. Like, attempting a diplomacy check on Cthulhu. Maybe the wall has a lever on the secret passage side that moved an entire section of the wall. Unless you can push over the wall (and who does this commonly at level 6?) your not going to notice it. Or even a 17th level hold portal keyed to the owner's special ring. P.S. For especially stubborn players , give them the hold portal explanation.
Thought 04-19-07, 01:39 PM	Magic. The secret passage was magically hidden. You have a decent chance of finding it from the top room. But it was magically hidden from the bottom. Some things are going to be impossible to do no matter what your skill roll is. Like, attempting a diplomacy check on Cthulhu. Maybe the wall has a lever on the secret passage side that moved an entire section of the wall. Unless you can push over the wall (and who does this commonly at level 6?) your not going to notice it. Or even a 17th level hold portal keyed to the owner's special ring. P.S. For especially stubborn players , give them the hold portal explanation. Detect magic would then negate the search check, no? Three rounds of detect magic and the party's wizard/cleric should be able to sense it from halfway across the castle. The only things that are impossible are those things that can't happen. Cthulu doesn't have compassion or morals, therefore appealing to them won’t work. There IS a passage in your situation, however, so it IS possible to find it. Nothing is perfectly hidden. So the entire wall moves? Gee, don't you think it would be terribly suspicious that where there are solid corners everywhere else in the room while one wall has cracks at every single corner to allow room for it to slide? Might be suspicious that there is nothing hanging on the wall that would be pushed off. A perfectly smooth wall (for sliding) in a friggen castle should tip the player's off too. Hold Portal? That added 5 DC to forcing open a portal is sure going to stop players, just like free beer will stop college students from going to party. Better hope they don't have a lvl 3 magic user around, or else that Hold Portal will meet Mr. Dispel Magic. Do you hear that? Why, I think I hear a train coming. Guess that means there is a railroad going on somewhere around here.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 04-19-07, 04:53 PM	So I'm assembling a castle for my PCs to invade in my game soon. Well there's your problem. You should be creating a castle that was someone's home and defensive structure which the PCs happen to be invading. Your results will be much more verisimilar that way.
CharlieRock 04-19-07, 05:11 PM	Detect magic would then negate the search check, no? Three rounds of detect magic and the party's wizard/cleric should be able to sense it from halfway across the castle. The only things that are impossible are those things that can't happen. Cthulu doesn't have compassion or morals, therefore appealing to them won’t work. There IS a passage in your situation, however, so it IS possible to find it. Nothing is perfectly hidden. So the entire wall moves? Gee, don't you think it would be terribly suspicious that where there are solid corners everywhere else in the room while one wall has cracks at every single corner to allow room for it to slide? Might be suspicious that there is nothing hanging on the wall that would be pushed off. A perfectly smooth wall (for sliding) in a friggen castle should tip the player's off too. Hold Portal? That added 5 DC to forcing open a portal is sure going to stop players, just like free beer will stop college students from going to party. Better hope they don't have a lvl 3 magic user around, or else that Hold Portal will meet Mr. Dispel Magic. Do you hear that? Why, I think I hear a train coming. Guess that means there is a railroad going on somewhere around here. Railroad? We're trying to come up with castle design that requires the PCs to visit over half the rooms to complete it. When wasn't this a railroad? Ring of teleport. There. Now are you happy? No secret passage. The guy just *BAMF* to the top and bottom whenever he wants. Or anywhere else in the castle. It's extremely convenient.
daggeroflath 04-19-07, 05:19 PM	The vampire didn't build the castle. The previous owner was the paranoid owner that installed whatever barrier to access we are trying to devise. Even with paranoia, he would not create an entrance mechanism that prevented *him* from getting access to his treasure. Oh yeah, I forgot that detail.
kelvinaw273 04-19-07, 05:19 PM	Presumably the 'uppermost chamber' is where the BBEG is. Why make it uppermost? Most castles have layered defences. Once you get past one layer, you have the problem of getting past the next (and are usually in an exposed position until you do). What I suggest you do is have the 'final chamber' quite easy to get in and out of once you know where it is and how to get in. Put the entrance somewhere innocious, and make the players really search for it. The BBEG can get in and out, but if the emergency key is in another section of the castle entirely they will have to go find it.
Thought 04-19-07, 06:02 PM	Railroad? We're trying to come up with castle design that requires the PCs to visit over half the rooms to complete it. When wasn't this a railroad? Sorry, was talking from the player's perspective. A DM can railroad players without shoving it in their face. Modules that one buys in a store generally will railroad players, but it isn't terribly overt so it doesn't subtract from gameplay. However, when a DM starts creating a convoluted reason as to why something that should be possible isn't (or just uses the ol "because I said so" trick), that is when players will/should start leaving. Railroading is more than just getting a player to do what you want, it is also making it obvious to the player that this is what you are doing.
Novacat 04-19-07, 09:17 PM	Anyone playing in the Castle Hadderoc playtesting game, you are honor-bound to not read the following. Alright... for all you crying "railroading", here's the REASON I want the castle designed this way: The vampire that took over the castle is now working for a demon lord (not really, but that's his story), who requires strong (living) bodies. The method chosen for gathering these bodies is to create a gauntlet situation, where only those strong enough survive to the end. Therefore, the logic behind the castle's design is somewhat different from what it was under the previous management. Baron Calda, the previous lord of the castle, was indeed paranoid. However, the vampire, Vanguard Lucroy, has performed a major remodel on the castle in order to be a test of strength for the adventuring parties that are lured there by promise of fame and fortune. The puzzles should be logical, if perhaps awkward, and the journey to the top should require both thought and fortitude. Lucroy is not interested in protecting a treasure. He's interested in testing adventurer parties.
CharlieRock 04-20-07, 08:36 AM	Sorry, was talking from the player's perspective. A DM can railroad players without shoving it in their face. Modules that one buys in a store generally will railroad players, but it isn't terribly overt so it doesn't subtract from gameplay. However, when a DM starts creating a convoluted reason as to why something that should be possible isn't (or just uses the ol "because I said so" trick), that is when players will/should start leaving. Railroading is more than just getting a player to do what you want, it is also making it obvious to the player that this is what you are doing. I don't attach negative conotations to railroading the way I 'should' be, I suppose. If you want xp for an encounter you have to overcome it. One way in, one way out. So I'd agree that railroading players is a good thing sometimes and bad (I've been badly railroaded before, dude.) Now here is why it wouldn't become so obvious that you hid a secret door right in the first room of the dungeon. Use something that is technically not a secret door: Say the BBEG purchased a phase door keyed to his identity (now the PCs may never find it actually). Edit: I like this one the best. :) A dimension door activated from the top room (and thusly undetectable from the bottom of the secret passage). The BBEG knows ethereal jaunt. Shadow Walk could work. Any of these magical means can deny most 6th level characters entry. Why not just use them on the front door? Because then the BBEG's parents couldn't come over on Evil Day. :cool:
Thought 04-20-07, 10:39 AM	Anyone playing in the Castle Hadderoc playtesting game, you are honor-bound to not read the following. Alright... for all you crying "railroading", here's the REASON I want the castle designed this way: Ah, but see that isn't quite the same as the railroading I was talking about. There is a reason for having the castle that way, a real logical reason. Saying that the PCs could never find a hidden passage, which does in fact exist, because the DC is too high but being unable to provide a justification for that DC being so high... well that is just bad DMing. Better to not include something (or find another work around) than to set an unjustifiable DC.
Seeker95 04-20-07, 12:47 PM	Furthermore (building on Thought's comment)... That the current occupant *did* make modifications changes some of the parameters within which we can/should work.
CharlieRock 04-20-07, 10:07 PM	Ah, but see that isn't quite the same as the railroading I was talking about. There is a reason for having the castle that way, a real logical reason. Saying that the PCs could never find a hidden passage, which does in fact exist, because the DC is too high but being unable to provide a justification for that DC being so high... well that is just bad DMing. Better to not include something (or find another work around) than to set an unjustifiable DC. The phase door thing?