Celestial Family Values [Archive] - Wizards Community

Celestial Family Values [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Psionycx
08-31-04, 02:00 PM I was pondering the half-celestial template and it had me thinking. What exactly are the sexual mores of celestial beings like Aasimon, Archons, Eladrin and Guardinals?

It seems fairly apparent from the statements made in the MM description of the half-celestial template that celestials due seem to have whirlwind romances with staggering array of beings. I suppose if you're Talisid and you're so inclined you can do it with a willing wemic or something. But it seems interesting that celestials not only have interracial affairs, they also have children from these affairs that they may or may not (typically not) directly parent and raise.

So are the Upper Planes a big landscape of free love? What are some of the relationship ideals up there? Queen Morwel is part of a bisexual menage a trois, but then she's chaotic and you can expect that I suppose. What about the lawful archons? And the neutral guardinals? How do celestial attitudes about sex and love compare with mortal attitudes about those things? They seem to be more liberal, but is that truly the case?

Any thoughts?
Xenu
08-31-04, 03:04 PM Yes they are. :)
Nuntius128
08-31-04, 03:40 PM What I think is strange is that when a Celestial has a Half-Celestial child, that child has better abilities. Example, how many Celestials can cast Resurrection once per day?
Psionycx
08-31-04, 09:46 PM What I think is strange is that when a Celestial has a Half-Celestial child, that child has better abilities. Example, how many Celestials can cast Resurrection once per day?

Depends, if you're talking about 19th level celestials then the answer is quite a few of them. I guess the potential for power is one incentive to breed them. More potential champions for Good and all that.

Still, this sure ain't Jerry Falwell's Heaven!

Angelic beings producing illegitimate children? Out-of-wedlock? What's next, bestiality? Oops, I think that was covered under the "mating-with-unicorns" piece.

What kind of social conventions surrounding relationships and family do celestials have? Do they feel guilty if their children turn to evil after being neglected by a celestial parent who had better things to do than raise a child? Or is this even a common problem? What is the primary paradigm for sex, love, and family in the Upper Planes I wonder?
Zed
09-01-04, 04:09 PM The creatures you seek isn't the archons, eladrins and such.
The creatures you seek are all celestial beings in the way:

Put that celestial template on them.

It is those creatures you seek.
Xenu
09-02-04, 08:18 AM Please don't be boring! :mad:
OF COURSE it's archons et all who are the divine parants. :D
Pagan priest
09-02-04, 06:42 PM I am currently running a ghaele with the intention of fathering as many kids on the Prime Material plane as I can. The theory is that with such a wide selection, at least some of them will go on to do great things.
Psionycx
09-02-04, 10:40 PM That rather makes sense from a Chaotic Good perspective. All those half-celestial children are likely to produce at least some high-achievers in the war against Evil.

But does your eladrin see his role as simple "seeding" the mortal population with celestial blood? Does he have any plans to ensure that the children he sires are raised well?

How does alignment play into this? Would a lawful good celestial feel more parental obligation than a neutral good or chaotic good one?

And what about marriage? We know some Good deities like Isis highly endorse it. But what is the celestial view in general? Do celestials marry each other? What about mortals? And how do such relationships work?

For example, is monogamy really likely between immortal beings? Ironically it would seem easier if one partner in a couple were mortal, because at least then the relationship would have a definied duration (the mortal's lifetime). Could serial monogamy be the cause of all these half-celestial progeny?

What about homosexuality? It would seem odd that beings that sometimes mate with radically different creatures (a humanoid aasimon mating with a unicorn for example) to have a prejudice against same-sex relations, but who knows?
delroland
09-03-04, 04:04 PM What about homosexuality? It would seem odd that beings that sometimes mate with radically different creatures (a humanoid aasimon mating with a unicorn for example) to have a prejudice against same-sex relations, but who knows?

And just how potent is that celestial seed? Do we have to worry about immaculate conception-style Half-Celestial butt babies? (JK:P)
Loren Pechtel
09-04-04, 12:59 AM And just how potent is that celestial seed? Do we have to worry about immaculate conception-style Half-Celestial butt babies? (JK:P)

Yeah, quite a paradox. The usual result of such conceptions is politicians, but I don't see how that could happen with a celestial parent.

:D :D
guardiandashi
09-04-04, 01:22 AM I believe that seed comment is covered in BoEF (if you want to consider its comment)

Blessed seed (spell)
Transmutation [Good, sexual]
Level Clr 4, Pal 4
Componants V, S, DF, XP
casting time 1 action
Range Personal
Target You
Duration 1 hour/level
Saving throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance Yes

description (effects)
This spell infuses your sperm/womb with power, the next time you have sex with the opposite gender, it results in a pregnancy REGARDLESS of mundane birth control methods taken (certain spells such as block the seed prevent this) contagon spell termanates the pregnancy (without inflicting a disease) the child gains the 1/2 celestial template.

xp cost 500

note on another place it also stipulates that (as in RL) semen MUST get into the womb ... somehow for conception to occur.

therefor heres some things I would say:
1 A sex = no child
2 oral sex no child
3 "genital" sex yes child
a few possible variations of 3 may exist but if in question see note about what causes conception.

of course celestials in their HOME plane CAN spontaniously come into existance /concieve but NOT in the prime material or when interacting with prime material creatures unless some REALLY bizzare circumstances occur.
Lina_Inverse
09-04-04, 05:36 AM les see here.

CG-obvious "your cute,i like you and good.lets have fun!",would run in terror of any children,sending gifts and trying to prob to good but avoiding the responsability at the same time.
NG-prolly with close friends,would probably settle down for any children.
LG-in some regulated way IE marriage,would defeinitly settle down and stay around if there were youngins.

thats all IMO of course.
Pagan priest
09-04-04, 03:53 PM That rather makes sense from a Chaotic Good perspective. All those half-celestial children are likely to produce at least some high-achievers in the war against Evil.

But does your eladrin see his role as simple "seeding" the mortal population with celestial blood? Does he have any plans to ensure that the children he sires are raised well?

What do you mean plans? Their mothers will take care of them, of course.
Psionycx
09-05-04, 12:39 PM What do you mean plans? Their mothers will take care of them, of course.

Well, aside from the assertion (usually made by "traditional family values" conservatives) that a child really needs both parents, what steps is the celestial taking to ensure that the mother is up to the job alone, that she won't let the child drift towards less virtuous behaviors, or that she doesn't die or otherwise leave the child in the care of others. Certainly some evil groups would LOVE to discreetly do away with the mother in order to take the child as a convert or a sacrifice.
Pagan priest
09-05-04, 01:56 PM In truth, I am hoping that the DM will simply sweep in under the rug and forget about it. ;) She is very new to DMing and I don't want to overwhelm her with too many details at the start, nor do I wish to bore the other players. If I were to actually take these things into account, yes, Kip (the previously mentioned ghaele) would be doing background checks, visiting frequently, leaving enough money to cover expenses, stuff like that.

BTW, I am certainly not a "'Traditional Famly Values' conservative" and I say that a child should have both parents... or all three, or :pile:
Valder
09-07-04, 02:49 PM What do you mean plans? Their mothers will take care of them, of course.

LOL - What if the mother is the celestial? ;)

I can see an active war between Heaven and Hell errupting instead of the traditional stagnant nose-thumbing that you have in core D&D.

A celestial woman returns to her former lover bearing a child in her arms, and warns him to keep the baby safe and raise him/her to be virtuous. She will return when she is able, but for now must take up arms against the hellspawn bubbling forth from the pit.
Pagan priest
09-07-04, 03:10 PM Actually, that is close to my character's back story. He spent years in an orphanage while mom & dad were off fighting evil and tyranny.
Psionycx
09-08-04, 08:58 AM Well, this kind of goes back to my thread topic. It would seem that celestials have a rather low opinion of the importance of parenting, given that they seem highly willing to just produce children and then discard them. What does this say about Good?
El_Machinae
09-08-04, 03:35 PM Since Celestials are "made" of goodness, wouldn't siring children 'use up' some of the limited amount of total goodness available? Not the emotion, but the raw resources available to "team goodness"?

I've always wondered if there was a cost to these kinds of things
Pagan priest
09-08-04, 04:08 PM If sireing my son had required more than a fraction of an ounce from me, I would not have minded, I could stand to loss a couple of pounds. In other words, I do not see any reason to assume that there is a finite amount of goodness in the multiverse. Creating new celestials is one way to create new champians of good and thus, increasing the net goodness of the multiverse.
El_Machinae
09-09-04, 10:51 AM Which begs the question of why the Prime is not flooded with "half-whatever" babies. If it was a viable method of boosting the forces of alignment, then everyone would do it.

The only answer, it seems, is that it's not actually a viable technique.
Pagan priest
09-09-04, 10:28 PM Hmmm, any time I have given it any thought (like 15 seconds ago...) I have considered that there would be a low cross species fertility rate, and the farther you get from the norm, the less likely a viable pregnancy is. Outsiders or fey can begat half breeds in the population, but the actual chances of any given act of insemination being suscessful is very slim.
Xenu
09-10-04, 12:09 PM I think it's quite simple.

*Half-celestials and half-fiends do not have any automatic alignments. A half-celestial might grow up to become evil, and vice verca.

*While halfbreed offspring of the right alignment makes good champions, so does many mortals. And more importantly, a progeny of the wrong alignment is a huge embarresment.
Lina_Inverse
09-11-04, 05:27 AM look at the planes boy,theres more aasimar/tieflings/whatever than the other mortal races COMBINED.i think that proves the forces of good like enjoying themselves,ooorrr at least the forces of chaos xP.

on a second note,although a half-breed may be able to turn towards evil.such a half-breed is woefully SCREWED.
Andrew_980
09-11-04, 11:59 PM on a second note,although a half-breed may be able to turn towards evil.such a half-breed is woefully SCREWED.

for a 1/2 demon it is better to fight evil than good, they cant ignor you DR
kdyal
09-16-04, 06:35 PM Slight problem: Selflessness is a fundamental element of good. It is SELFISH to spread your seed to the four winds and not take care of the results. In order to stay Good, the character in question MUST take responsibility for the progeny produced of his various unions.
teclis
10-13-04, 09:34 AM Slight problem: Selflessness is a fundamental element of good. It is SELFISH to spread your seed to the four winds and not take care of the results. In order to stay Good, the character in question MUST take responsibility for the progeny produced of his various unions.

I would argue that it is well within the chaotic framework. the mothers took responcibility for the children when they hooked up with a celestial, knowing he wouldn't be around to help with the parenting. (heck, he is super-boy, not like he can't deal with the other children picking on him for his wings)
Psionycx
10-13-04, 10:46 AM I would argue that it is well within the chaotic framework. the mothers took responcibility for the children when they hooked up with a celestial, knowing he wouldn't be around to help with the parenting. (heck, he is super-boy, not like he can't deal with the other children picking on him for his wings)

Actually, that kind of indifference would be well within the Chaotic Neutral framework.

Being Chaotic Good doesn't mean you're freed from all moral obligations on the grounds that you're Chaotic.

It seems to me that even Chaotic Good beings should feel some concern for what becomes of their children. If nothing else their progeny might turn to Evil if not reared properly and simply assuming that the mother will take care of things neglects that, as a mortal, she could die, change alignment or otherwise not be available to protect and nurture the child according to a Good ethos. Then you end up with "super-boy" serving the cause of enemy.
Objulen
10-14-04, 08:41 PM Technically (at least according to the BoVD), any half-celestial is a result of an evil act, since it falls under their definition of bestiality.

But to discuss something real and applicable, half-celestial mores would probably end up being what is considered 'good' in a sexual relationship and marriage, i.e. and equal partnership between two individuals who are in love, with possible complications because of the couples' respective duties, both to each other and their superiors/fellows/callings, and modified by the celestial's alignment on the law/chaos axis. A LG Celestial would be more likely to follow a structured courtship ritual that proscribed the various steps of intimacy culminating in some sort of marriage ceremony, while a CG Celestial would be guided more by what felt right, modified by the needs of her/his partner at the time, without the need for fanfair or any but the loosest rituals.
Lina_Inverse
10-15-04, 08:23 PM Actually, that kind of indifference would be well within the Chaotic Neutral framework.

Being Chaotic Good doesn't mean you're freed from all moral obligations on the grounds that you're Chaotic.

It seems to me that even Chaotic Good beings should feel some concern for what becomes of their children. If nothing else their progeny might turn to Evil if not reared properly and simply assuming that the mother will take care of things neglects that, as a mortal, she could die, change alignment or otherwise not be available to protect and nurture the child according to a Good ethos. Then you end up with "super-boy" serving the cause of enemy.

responsibility is a lawfull,not a good one.a chaotic celestial wouldnt raise the child unless they wanted,and if they did they would be most zealous in that pursuit.

oh i just checked.the child will be good so no celestial needs to worry.alingment:always good.
Objulen
10-16-04, 04:15 AM responsibility is a lawfull,not a good one.a chaotic celestial wouldnt raise the child unless they wanted,and if they did they would be most zealous in that pursuit.

But betrayal is an evil act, and abandoning your child and lover could be seen as such an act.

oh i just checked.the child will be good so no celestial needs to worry.alingment:always good.

Nearly predetermined alignments for creatures with mortal blood? I would make it frequently
Lina_Inverse
10-16-04, 07:11 AM But betrayal is an evil act, and abandoning your child and lover could be seen as such an act.

by whos standards?to beings without codes and who have no concept of responsibility it would not be.betrayel is stabing your friend in the back,it is not however haveing a one night fling and forgetting about it.the CG outsider wouldnt even realize theres consequenses to a fling,its enjoying the fling.

Nearly predetermined alignments for creatures with mortal blood? I would make it frequently

by the RAW it is always,remember there also of CELESTIAL blood.there made from good as much as they are of mortal blood.
Objulen
10-16-04, 09:14 PM by whos standards?to beings without codes and who have no concept of responsibility it would not be.betrayel is stabing your friend in the back,it is not however haveing a one night fling and forgetting about it.the CG outsider wouldnt even realize theres consequenses to a fling,its enjoying the fling.

Whose standards? One possible standard I am leaning towards, and the PHB if nothing else. First, there is a difference between not following an actual code and doing whatever you feel like doing -- a CG Celestial isn't going to murder, rape, or rob people just because he/she is Chaotic; the character in question still has a 'code' that they follow, its just not layed down, written up, and followed to the letter. The PHB states that good implies "altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings." Betrayal is quite easily a violation of the dignity of sentient beings.

Secondly, Outsiders, especially the Celestials, are not stupid. An Eladrin is going to be intelligent enough to realize that sex can lead to pregnancy. How is getting someone pregnant and then leaving them to deal with the consequences, in any way, showing "concern for the dignity of senteint beings."

by the RAW it is always,remember there also of CELESTIAL blood.there made from good as much as they are of mortal blood.

Indeed, they are of Celestial blood, which is why I would make them frequently good. Always implies that those who deviate from the alignment are one-in-a-million individuals, which would be the Celestials themselves. Since half-celestials have mortal blood (and thus more free will IMO), they would be 'Usually' good, one step down from 'Always', which means that more than 50% fo these creatures have the given alignment. How high that percentage is (such as 95% as opposed to 65%) is upto the DM, but it is a greater ratio than the 99.999999999999999% implied by the 'Always' description.
Belladonna5012
10-20-04, 03:58 PM This begs the question: are two mentally competent adults in a consensually unequel D/S and/or S&M relationship committing an "evil act"?

Or is that the kind of things a lot of those chaotic celestials would jump at the chance for? Can't be any worse than carelessly sleeping around. ;)

And yes. If you follow the BoVD to the letter, those celestials are committing an evil act (a terrible evil act!) every time they knock up or get knocked up by a unicorn (bestiality, as was mentioned by an earlier poster).

Isn't it fun how "good" and "evil" are supposed to be rigidly defined in black and white in this game, yet there's virtually no consistency whatsoever in the application of this standard? :D

~Belladonna Knight
Objulen
10-20-04, 11:05 PM This begs the question: are two mentally competent adults in a consensually unequel D/S and/or S&M relationship committing an "evil act"?

You have to ask the question of the mental and emotional health of people in at least a D/S relationship, and possibly an S&M relationship, but I must leave the answers to such questions upto those with greater expertise and knowledge on the subject than myself.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psionycx 08-31-04, 02:00 PM	I was pondering the half-celestial template and it had me thinking. What exactly are the sexual mores of celestial beings like Aasimon, Archons, Eladrin and Guardinals? It seems fairly apparent from the statements made in the MM description of the half-celestial template that celestials due seem to have whirlwind romances with staggering array of beings. I suppose if you're Talisid and you're so inclined you can do it with a willing wemic or something. But it seems interesting that celestials not only have interracial affairs, they also have children from these affairs that they may or may not (typically not) directly parent and raise. So are the Upper Planes a big landscape of free love? What are some of the relationship ideals up there? Queen Morwel is part of a bisexual menage a trois, but then she's chaotic and you can expect that I suppose. What about the lawful archons? And the neutral guardinals? How do celestial attitudes about sex and love compare with mortal attitudes about those things? They seem to be more liberal, but is that truly the case? Any thoughts?
Xenu 08-31-04, 03:04 PM	Yes they are. :)
Nuntius128 08-31-04, 03:40 PM	What I think is strange is that when a Celestial has a Half-Celestial child, that child has better abilities. Example, how many Celestials can cast Resurrection once per day?
Psionycx 08-31-04, 09:46 PM	What I think is strange is that when a Celestial has a Half-Celestial child, that child has better abilities. Example, how many Celestials can cast Resurrection once per day? Depends, if you're talking about 19th level celestials then the answer is quite a few of them. I guess the potential for power is one incentive to breed them. More potential champions for Good and all that. Still, this sure ain't Jerry Falwell's Heaven! Angelic beings producing illegitimate children? Out-of-wedlock? What's next, bestiality? Oops, I think that was covered under the "mating-with-unicorns" piece. What kind of social conventions surrounding relationships and family do celestials have? Do they feel guilty if their children turn to evil after being neglected by a celestial parent who had better things to do than raise a child? Or is this even a common problem? What is the primary paradigm for sex, love, and family in the Upper Planes I wonder?
Zed 09-01-04, 04:09 PM	The creatures you seek isn't the archons, eladrins and such. The creatures you seek are all celestial beings in the way: Put that celestial template on them. It is those creatures you seek.
Xenu 09-02-04, 08:18 AM	Please don't be boring! :mad: OF COURSE it's archons et all who are the divine parants. :D
Pagan priest 09-02-04, 06:42 PM	I am currently running a ghaele with the intention of fathering as many kids on the Prime Material plane as I can. The theory is that with such a wide selection, at least some of them will go on to do great things.
Psionycx 09-02-04, 10:40 PM	That rather makes sense from a Chaotic Good perspective. All those half-celestial children are likely to produce at least some high-achievers in the war against Evil. But does your eladrin see his role as simple "seeding" the mortal population with celestial blood? Does he have any plans to ensure that the children he sires are raised well? How does alignment play into this? Would a lawful good celestial feel more parental obligation than a neutral good or chaotic good one? And what about marriage? We know some Good deities like Isis highly endorse it. But what is the celestial view in general? Do celestials marry each other? What about mortals? And how do such relationships work? For example, is monogamy really likely between immortal beings? Ironically it would seem easier if one partner in a couple were mortal, because at least then the relationship would have a definied duration (the mortal's lifetime). Could serial monogamy be the cause of all these half-celestial progeny? What about homosexuality? It would seem odd that beings that sometimes mate with radically different creatures (a humanoid aasimon mating with a unicorn for example) to have a prejudice against same-sex relations, but who knows?
delroland 09-03-04, 04:04 PM	What about homosexuality? It would seem odd that beings that sometimes mate with radically different creatures (a humanoid aasimon mating with a unicorn for example) to have a prejudice against same-sex relations, but who knows? And just how potent is that celestial seed? Do we have to worry about immaculate conception-style Half-Celestial butt babies? (JK:P)
Loren Pechtel 09-04-04, 12:59 AM	And just how potent is that celestial seed? Do we have to worry about immaculate conception-style Half-Celestial butt babies? (JK:P) Yeah, quite a paradox. The usual result of such conceptions is politicians, but I don't see how that could happen with a celestial parent. :D :D
guardiandashi 09-04-04, 01:22 AM	I believe that seed comment is covered in BoEF (if you want to consider its comment) Blessed seed (spell) Transmutation [Good, sexual] Level Clr 4, Pal 4 Componants V, S, DF, XP casting time 1 action Range Personal Target You Duration 1 hour/level Saving throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance Yes description (effects) This spell infuses your sperm/womb with power, the next time you have sex with the opposite gender, it results in a pregnancy REGARDLESS of mundane birth control methods taken (certain spells such as block the seed prevent this) contagon spell termanates the pregnancy (without inflicting a disease) the child gains the 1/2 celestial template. xp cost 500 note on another place it also stipulates that (as in RL) semen MUST get into the womb ... somehow for conception to occur. therefor heres some things I would say: 1 A sex = no child 2 oral sex no child 3 "genital" sex yes child a few possible variations of 3 may exist but if in question see note about what causes conception. of course celestials in their HOME plane CAN spontaniously come into existance /concieve but NOT in the prime material or when interacting with prime material creatures unless some REALLY bizzare circumstances occur.
Lina_Inverse 09-04-04, 05:36 AM	les see here. CG-obvious "your cute,i like you and good.lets have fun!",would run in terror of any children,sending gifts and trying to prob to good but avoiding the responsability at the same time. NG-prolly with close friends,would probably settle down for any children. LG-in some regulated way IE marriage,would defeinitly settle down and stay around if there were youngins. thats all IMO of course.
Pagan priest 09-04-04, 03:53 PM	That rather makes sense from a Chaotic Good perspective. All those half-celestial children are likely to produce at least some high-achievers in the war against Evil. But does your eladrin see his role as simple "seeding" the mortal population with celestial blood? Does he have any plans to ensure that the children he sires are raised well? What do you mean plans? Their mothers will take care of them, of course.
Psionycx 09-05-04, 12:39 PM	What do you mean plans? Their mothers will take care of them, of course. Well, aside from the assertion (usually made by "traditional family values" conservatives) that a child really needs both parents, what steps is the celestial taking to ensure that the mother is up to the job alone, that she won't let the child drift towards less virtuous behaviors, or that she doesn't die or otherwise leave the child in the care of others. Certainly some evil groups would LOVE to discreetly do away with the mother in order to take the child as a convert or a sacrifice.
Pagan priest 09-05-04, 01:56 PM	In truth, I am hoping that the DM will simply sweep in under the rug and forget about it. ;) She is very new to DMing and I don't want to overwhelm her with too many details at the start, nor do I wish to bore the other players. If I were to actually take these things into account, yes, Kip (the previously mentioned ghaele) would be doing background checks, visiting frequently, leaving enough money to cover expenses, stuff like that. BTW, I am certainly not a "'Traditional Famly Values' conservative" and I say that a child should have both parents... or all three, or :pile:
Valder 09-07-04, 02:49 PM	What do you mean plans? Their mothers will take care of them, of course. LOL - What if the mother is the celestial? ;) I can see an active war between Heaven and Hell errupting instead of the traditional stagnant nose-thumbing that you have in core D&D. A celestial woman returns to her former lover bearing a child in her arms, and warns him to keep the baby safe and raise him/her to be virtuous. She will return when she is able, but for now must take up arms against the hellspawn bubbling forth from the pit.
Pagan priest 09-07-04, 03:10 PM	Actually, that is close to my character's back story. He spent years in an orphanage while mom & dad were off fighting evil and tyranny.
Psionycx 09-08-04, 08:58 AM	Well, this kind of goes back to my thread topic. It would seem that celestials have a rather low opinion of the importance of parenting, given that they seem highly willing to just produce children and then discard them. What does this say about Good?
El_Machinae 09-08-04, 03:35 PM	Since Celestials are "made" of goodness, wouldn't siring children 'use up' some of the limited amount of total goodness available? Not the emotion, but the raw resources available to "team goodness"? I've always wondered if there was a cost to these kinds of things
Pagan priest 09-08-04, 04:08 PM	If sireing my son had required more than a fraction of an ounce from me, I would not have minded, I could stand to loss a couple of pounds. In other words, I do not see any reason to assume that there is a finite amount of goodness in the multiverse. Creating new celestials is one way to create new champians of good and thus, increasing the net goodness of the multiverse.
El_Machinae 09-09-04, 10:51 AM	Which begs the question of why the Prime is not flooded with "half-whatever" babies. If it was a viable method of boosting the forces of alignment, then everyone would do it. The only answer, it seems, is that it's not actually a viable technique.
Pagan priest 09-09-04, 10:28 PM	Hmmm, any time I have given it any thought (like 15 seconds ago...) I have considered that there would be a low cross species fertility rate, and the farther you get from the norm, the less likely a viable pregnancy is. Outsiders or fey can begat half breeds in the population, but the actual chances of any given act of insemination being suscessful is very slim.
Xenu 09-10-04, 12:09 PM	I think it's quite simple. Half-celestials and half-fiends do not have any automatic alignments. A half-celestial might grow up to become evil, and vice verca. While halfbreed offspring of the right alignment makes good champions, so does many mortals. And more importantly, a progeny of the wrong alignment is a huge embarresment.
Lina_Inverse 09-11-04, 05:27 AM	look at the planes boy,theres more aasimar/tieflings/whatever than the other mortal races COMBINED.i think that proves the forces of good like enjoying themselves,ooorrr at least the forces of chaos xP. on a second note,although a half-breed may be able to turn towards evil.such a half-breed is woefully SCREWED.
Andrew_980 09-11-04, 11:59 PM	on a second note,although a half-breed may be able to turn towards evil.such a half-breed is woefully SCREWED. for a 1/2 demon it is better to fight evil than good, they cant ignor you DR
kdyal 09-16-04, 06:35 PM	Slight problem: Selflessness is a fundamental element of good. It is SELFISH to spread your seed to the four winds and not take care of the results. In order to stay Good, the character in question MUST take responsibility for the progeny produced of his various unions.
teclis 10-13-04, 09:34 AM	Slight problem: Selflessness is a fundamental element of good. It is SELFISH to spread your seed to the four winds and not take care of the results. In order to stay Good, the character in question MUST take responsibility for the progeny produced of his various unions. I would argue that it is well within the chaotic framework. the mothers took responcibility for the children when they hooked up with a celestial, knowing he wouldn't be around to help with the parenting. (heck, he is super-boy, not like he can't deal with the other children picking on him for his wings)
Psionycx 10-13-04, 10:46 AM	I would argue that it is well within the chaotic framework. the mothers took responcibility for the children when they hooked up with a celestial, knowing he wouldn't be around to help with the parenting. (heck, he is super-boy, not like he can't deal with the other children picking on him for his wings) Actually, that kind of indifference would be well within the Chaotic Neutral framework. Being Chaotic Good doesn't mean you're freed from all moral obligations on the grounds that you're Chaotic. It seems to me that even Chaotic Good beings should feel some concern for what becomes of their children. If nothing else their progeny might turn to Evil if not reared properly and simply assuming that the mother will take care of things neglects that, as a mortal, she could die, change alignment or otherwise not be available to protect and nurture the child according to a Good ethos. Then you end up with "super-boy" serving the cause of enemy.
Objulen 10-14-04, 08:41 PM	Technically (at least according to the BoVD), any half-celestial is a result of an evil act, since it falls under their definition of bestiality. But to discuss something real and applicable, half-celestial mores would probably end up being what is considered 'good' in a sexual relationship and marriage, i.e. and equal partnership between two individuals who are in love, with possible complications because of the couples' respective duties, both to each other and their superiors/fellows/callings, and modified by the celestial's alignment on the law/chaos axis. A LG Celestial would be more likely to follow a structured courtship ritual that proscribed the various steps of intimacy culminating in some sort of marriage ceremony, while a CG Celestial would be guided more by what felt right, modified by the needs of her/his partner at the time, without the need for fanfair or any but the loosest rituals.
Lina_Inverse 10-15-04, 08:23 PM	Actually, that kind of indifference would be well within the Chaotic Neutral framework. Being Chaotic Good doesn't mean you're freed from all moral obligations on the grounds that you're Chaotic. It seems to me that even Chaotic Good beings should feel some concern for what becomes of their children. If nothing else their progeny might turn to Evil if not reared properly and simply assuming that the mother will take care of things neglects that, as a mortal, she could die, change alignment or otherwise not be available to protect and nurture the child according to a Good ethos. Then you end up with "super-boy" serving the cause of enemy. responsibility is a lawfull,not a good one.a chaotic celestial wouldnt raise the child unless they wanted,and if they did they would be most zealous in that pursuit. oh i just checked.the child will be good so no celestial needs to worry.alingment:always good.
Objulen 10-16-04, 04:15 AM	responsibility is a lawfull,not a good one.a chaotic celestial wouldnt raise the child unless they wanted,and if they did they would be most zealous in that pursuit. But betrayal is an evil act, and abandoning your child and lover could be seen as such an act. oh i just checked.the child will be good so no celestial needs to worry.alingment:always good. Nearly predetermined alignments for creatures with mortal blood? I would make it frequently
Lina_Inverse 10-16-04, 07:11 AM	But betrayal is an evil act, and abandoning your child and lover could be seen as such an act. by whos standards?to beings without codes and who have no concept of responsibility it would not be.betrayel is stabing your friend in the back,it is not however haveing a one night fling and forgetting about it.the CG outsider wouldnt even realize theres consequenses to a fling,its enjoying the fling. Nearly predetermined alignments for creatures with mortal blood? I would make it frequently by the RAW it is always,remember there also of CELESTIAL blood.there made from good as much as they are of mortal blood.
Objulen 10-16-04, 09:14 PM	by whos standards?to beings without codes and who have no concept of responsibility it would not be.betrayel is stabing your friend in the back,it is not however haveing a one night fling and forgetting about it.the CG outsider wouldnt even realize theres consequenses to a fling,its enjoying the fling. Whose standards? One possible standard I am leaning towards, and the PHB if nothing else. First, there is a difference between not following an actual code and doing whatever you feel like doing -- a CG Celestial isn't going to murder, rape, or rob people just because he/she is Chaotic; the character in question still has a 'code' that they follow, its just not layed down, written up, and followed to the letter. The PHB states that good implies "altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings." Betrayal is quite easily a violation of the dignity of sentient beings. Secondly, Outsiders, especially the Celestials, are not stupid. An Eladrin is going to be intelligent enough to realize that sex can lead to pregnancy. How is getting someone pregnant and then leaving them to deal with the consequences, in any way, showing "concern for the dignity of senteint beings." by the RAW it is always,remember there also of CELESTIAL blood.there made from good as much as they are of mortal blood. Indeed, they are of Celestial blood, which is why I would make them frequently good. Always implies that those who deviate from the alignment are one-in-a-million individuals, which would be the Celestials themselves. Since half-celestials have mortal blood (and thus more free will IMO), they would be 'Usually' good, one step down from 'Always', which means that more than 50% fo these creatures have the given alignment. How high that percentage is (such as 95% as opposed to 65%) is upto the DM, but it is a greater ratio than the 99.999999999999999% implied by the 'Always' description.
Belladonna5012 10-20-04, 03:58 PM	This begs the question: are two mentally competent adults in a consensually unequel D/S and/or S&M relationship committing an "evil act"? Or is that the kind of things a lot of those chaotic celestials would jump at the chance for? Can't be any worse than carelessly sleeping around. ;) And yes. If you follow the BoVD to the letter, those celestials are committing an evil act (a terrible evil act!) every time they knock up or get knocked up by a unicorn (bestiality, as was mentioned by an earlier poster). Isn't it fun how "good" and "evil" are supposed to be rigidly defined in black and white in this game, yet there's virtually no consistency whatsoever in the application of this standard? :D ~Belladonna Knight
Objulen 10-20-04, 11:05 PM	This begs the question: are two mentally competent adults in a consensually unequel D/S and/or S&M relationship committing an "evil act"? You have to ask the question of the mental and emotional health of people in at least a D/S relationship, and possibly an S&M relationship, but I must leave the answers to such questions upto those with greater expertise and knowledge on the subject than myself.