Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lekpic 07-02-04, 01:16 PM	Is there such thing as a Celtic Pantheon of Gods? Or would it be the same as the Asgaurdian Pantheon in Dieties and Demigods? I am playing a Charecter who is a cleric of Thor, but his cohort is celtic and obvioucly may not beleive in the same pantheon or god for that matter. Where could I find a Celtic Pantheon? PLEASE HELP! I was told that in Legends and Lore there was a Celtic Pantheon. I am specifically looking for a CN, CG, N, NG god similar to Thor or a Female God that would be compatible with the heafty God of Thunder and the hammer. Could someone help me with those stats or information?
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 07-02-04, 04:30 PM	Oh yes. The Celts had numerous, numerous gods. However, the only one I can remember off the top of my head was Morrigan, the Three-Aspected Raven-Goddess of War. However, one thing you'll notice about celtic gods, as compared to the asgardian, olympian, and pharaonic pantheon, is that their gods have a tendency to be less about a specific THING (war, the hearth, love) and more about a personality. They tend to be almost....really powerful heroes, rather than what are classically considered gods. We used to call them gods of "Inherent Superiority", because their main divine power was usually just to be better than you at EVERYTHING. Smarter, Stronger, more Artistically talented, etc.
Arakano 07-04-04, 09:18 AM	I think Teutates was somewhat similar to Thor, maybe a CG or CN god of war and braveness. The only other god that comes to my mind right now is Cerunnos, the horned god of the woods and woodlife (a deity for hunters and such).
Taelohn 07-04-04, 01:45 PM	http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/europe/celtic/articles.html Check out that if you want to learn about Celtic mythology. It'll be a long read...
the Horc 07-04-04, 08:17 PM	Shouldn't this be in Deities and Demigods?
Elrana 07-06-04, 09:05 AM	As a British archaeologist I feel that it is incumbent upon me to point out that the 'Celts' never existed as such. There were various different peoples who had similar cultures and traded between groups thus sharing similar technologies and no doubt picking up on and joining in with differing beliefs, but as a people Celts are a fairy tale. If you are looking for a war god from that period who was widely recognised and NG then I suggest Mithras. He was worshipped very widely and Maiden Castle (the biggest iron age hill fort in Britain) has a temple to him at the top of it, that's a seriously important relic of the period generally associated with the Celts so shouldn't really go ignored in this conversation. His worship crossed boundaries, enemy soldiers joining together in worship as fellow and equals when in his temples. In order to join you had to be introduced and forwarded as a great soldier and a man of honour, and then put through a pretty harsh initiation test. A soldier might even suggest and sponsor an enemy he saw fighting bravely and with honour against him on the field of battle! He is generally represented as a black bull and his worship involved the sacrifice of a bull to him on an altar over a blood pit. His temples were generally just below ground with an overground entrance that leads directly to a flight of stairs. That's about all I can really tell you, I was primarily a Romanist by Jove! ;)
Elendur 07-06-04, 12:21 PM	You can download the 2nd edition Legends and Lore here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/LegendsAndLore.rtf It includes Celtic mythology. Even though the Celts as a people were a fairy tale, last time I checked so was everything else in D&D, so it should work out nicely.
lekpic 07-06-04, 12:23 PM	Thank you all for your help. I think I got what I needed for now.
Elrana 07-06-04, 01:02 PM	Originally posted by Elendur You can download the 2nd edition Legends and Lore here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/LegendsAndLore.rtf It includes Celtic mythology. Even though the Celts as a people were a fairy tale, last time I checked so was everything else in D&D, so it should work out nicely. True, elves, dwarves, gnomes etc. are all a fairy tale, as are the members of the D&D pantheons. D&D is a fairy tale that never existed based on someone's or someones' imagination(s). The Celts are a fairy tale based on romanticised misinterpretation of facts and (mis)information related to races and peoples who did exist. These are two eminently different definitions of 'fairy tale'. In my games we play in a fairy tale world filled with fairy tale gods and people called the D&D world. There are no references to any real world influences. Therefore there is no need for any kind of accuracy, only a need for consistency. What was asked for was information about the real world to be used in a D&D game. If someone is attempting to base a game on an historical period/people/pantheon then they should be given accurate information relating to that period/people/pantheon. If you can't see that then fine, not my problem, but there is no requirement for you to denegrate or criticise someone else's attempts to assist just because you fail to understand the basic difference between the made up from nowhere and the made up from somewhere. In other words although sarcasm in the right place at the right time (both of these usually rely to a pretty large extent on the person being sarcastic also being correct) can be both amusing and taken as harmless jibing, misplaced sarcasm is neither. It is merely unpleasant and unfunny. :)
lekpic 07-06-04, 01:09 PM	Ok, no need to get snippy. Since I was the one who started the thread I will be the one to say why I started it. I beleive that all pantheons were myth. I understand that Celts were not entirely true, but Celtic bloodlines do exist. I was looking for ancient pantheons of peoples from the UK, particularly Ireland and Scotland and Wales. The D&D Legends and Lore had exactly what I was looking for.
Elendur 07-07-04, 01:22 PM	Sorry to offend you Elrana. Lekpic asked for the stats from Legends and Lore, which I provided a link to. I should have kept my snide remark to myself. I guess I misread your signature.
Elrana 07-07-04, 04:34 PM	Originally posted by Elendur Sorry to offend you Elrana. Lekpic asked for the stats from Legends and Lore, which I provided a link to. I should have kept my snide remark to myself. I guess I misread your signature. Perhaps, to quote some other poster sometime who, despite being forgotten by name, should still be mentioned, text on a forum is not the best medium for getting tone across. Hence smilies. Following your reference if misinterpretation is the case (on my part) then consider apology unecessary and my response unbidden. :)
Elven Kendo Master 07-08-04, 03:07 PM	The Celtic Pantheon can be found in Dragon issue 283.
lekpic 07-08-04, 03:37 PM	Great, I'll look into getting that back issue. Thanks!
Pagan priest 07-08-04, 09:08 PM	Originally posted by Elrana As a British archaeologist I feel that it is incumbent upon me to point out that the 'Celts' never existed as such. There were various different peoples who had similar cultures and traded between groups thus sharing similar technologies and no doubt picking up on and joining in with differing beliefs, but as a people Celts are a fairy tale. While there was no one group, no nation, that was called the Celts, it is proper to name certain tribes as being part of the Celtic folk. Both the Greeks and the Romans make refeences to the Celtic people. As far as that goes, you could make the same claim for the "Greeks"... since they were really all different city-states, and therefore not a unified people. Unfortunately, there are about as many myths about the Celts as there are about the Vikiings. Secondly, Mithras. Say what? No. Absolutely, totally, and completely wrong. Mithras was brought to the British Isles by the Roman legions, after they learned of Him in the Orient. Prior to Julius Ceaser in 55 B.C.E. Mithras was not worshiped in the British Isles, and I would doubt anywhere else that was Celtic, either. While I am not specifically familiar with Maiden Castle, I say with fair certainty that any temple located there dates to the time of the Roman occupation, and not one year earlier.
NialapMoria 07-08-04, 10:35 PM	celts or Keltoi in greek is the uncivilized. If you want a good read into the irish/scotish/uk Celts then read the "Tain Bo Cuailnge" for some background and diety interaction.
Elrana 07-09-04, 03:30 AM	Originally posted by Pagan priest While there was no one group, no nation, that was called the Celts, it is proper to name certain tribes as being part of the Celtic folk. Both the Greeks and the Romans make refeences to the Celtic people. As far as that goes, you could make the same claim for the "Greeks"... since they were really all different city-states, and therefore not a unified people. That's about right, Minoans, Mycanaeans through to Spartans, Athenians and so on. No unified nation of Greeks at all just a collection of city states and island races with traditions and cultural influences in common. I don't catch what your argument here is. The tone implies disagreement but the content doesn't. What am I missing? Unfortunately, there are about as many myths about the Celts as there are about the Vikiings. Secondly, Mithras. Say what? No. Absolutely, totally, and completely wrong. Mithras was brought to the British Isles by the Roman legions, after they learned of Him in the Orient. Prior to Julius Ceaser in 55 B.C.E. Mithras was not worshiped in the British Isles, and I would doubt anywhere else that was Celtic, either. While I am not specifically familiar with Maiden Castle, I say with fair certainty that any temple located there dates to the time of the Roman occupation, and not one year earlier. And the problem here? Are you suggesting that the 'Celts' just stopped existing the day that Caesar landed on the British shores? Or are you suggesting that Celtic tradition encapsulates only that which the very first Celt believed? As far abroad as there are people who maintained cultural influences associated with Celts there is a history of the worship of Mithras. Prior to 55BC there was cross channel trade from Gaul, which was under Roman rule. We have Roman artifacts uncovered in Britain from prior to Roman occupation due to this trade. Do you think that ideas, culture and influence failed to cross the channel with those artifacts? Assuming that we can take Celtic tradition to have evolved and expanded over time we can certainly accept that a mere five or six hundred years is a long enough period within which we may associate the worship of a specific deity with a people. True the 'Celts' did not invent the Mithraic tradition, but they certainly embraced it, along with Xianity and pretty much any other gods that came along. That's the beauty of pantheism, you can hedge your bets! In far less than 600 years there are aspects of the US that we accept as associated aspects of a culture. Therefore using that as a modern example I shall continue to associate Mithras with the confederation of Celtic people, my ancestors and the ancient people of my country, all three of which are a mix of different cultures, traditions and religions. I know that I am basing that solely on archaeology and written history rather than jingoism but I'll just have to live with that. :) (By the way, I think you mean the Levant rather than the orient.)
Pagan priest 07-09-04, 03:00 PM	Originally posted by Elrana That's about right, Minoans, Mycanaeans through to Spartans, Athenians and so on. No unified nation of Greeks at all just a collection of city states and island races with traditions and cultural influences in common. I don't catch what your argument here is. The tone implies disagreement but the content doesn't. What am I missing? Your earlier statement claimed that there were no Celts. While I agree that there was never any single unified nation(*), it is still accurate to identify various tribes as being Celtic, just as it is to identify certain people as Greek. As such, one can speak of the Parisii, or generalize and speak about the Gaul, or generalize further and speak of the Celts. (*I have heard tales of the Druids as being a unifying force across all the Celtic people, including the concept that all Druids trained at a single location. It makes a nice concept for the game, goes back to the 1st ed version of a Druid.) And the problem here? Are you suggesting that the 'Celts' just stopped existing the day that Caesar landed on the British shores? Or are you suggesting that Celtic tradition encapsulates only that which the very first Celt believed? As far abroad as there are people who maintained cultural influences associated with Celts there is a history of the worship of Mithras. Prior to 55BC there was cross channel trade from Gaul, which was under Roman rule. We have Roman artifacts uncovered in Britain from prior to Roman occupation due to this trade. Do you think that ideas, culture and influence failed to cross the channel with those artifacts? First, the best answer to the original question would involve those Gods of Celtic origin, not those brought in with the Romans. Talking about Mithras no more gives a useable answer than does talking about the Culdean Christians. Second, just how wide spread do you think the worship of Mithras was? I doubt you can find any significant evidence of it outside the area of the Roman occupation. Assuming that we can take Celtic tradition to have evolved and expanded over time we can certainly accept that a mere five or six hundred years is a long enough period within which we may associate the worship of a specific deity with a people. True the 'Celts' did not invent the Mithraic tradition, but they certainly embraced it, along with Xianity and pretty much any other gods that came along. That's the beauty of pantheism, you can hedge your bets! As I mantioned above, yes, in the areas of Roman occupation, Mithraism and later, Xianity were embraced. "The Romans won, so their Gods must be stronger" sort of thing. (By the way, I think you mean the Levant rather than the orient.) It was east of Rome, therefore it was part of the Orient...
lekpic 07-09-04, 03:07 PM	Why are we fighting over this. The subject seems moot on this particular thread.
Pagan priest 07-09-04, 03:18 PM	Since when do Celts need an excuse to fight?
lekpic 07-09-04, 03:28 PM	Originally posted by Pagan priest Since when do Celts need an excuse to fight? Since the thread could get shut down if it turns into a flame war. And besides I started this thread to ask for advice on Celtic Pantheon, since when did anything need to be justified historically? Celts are what I used for kilt wearing, wonders like the Scots, the Irish and the Welch. It was an easier way to term them all together. MAN!
Pagan priest 07-09-04, 03:57 PM	I hardly think that an intellectual debate regarding archaeological evidence can be construed as a flame war. And as far as the original question goes, I would suggest the Morrigan, Queen of Battle. In spite of the write up given Her in the L&L book (2nd ed), She is not evil. I have played in games where paladins served Her.