Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boozerker 09-08-06, 12:36 AM	What level would a group of 5 PCs be in order to win a fight against 200 townspeople?
Novacat 09-08-06, 12:48 AM	Describe the situation in more detail please: 1. Will the population be previously aware of your attack? 1a. If so, how many will be aware, and how many are capable combatants? 1b. Will there be non-combatants for the townspeople to protect? 2. What races are present in the town? 3. How well-equipped is the town? 4. Of the combatants, how many have adventuring levels, as opposed to NPC levels, and what are the level ranges? 4a. If there are PC-classed martial combatants present, how many of each? 4b. If there are PC-classed spellcasting combatants present, how many of each? 5. How big (in area) is the town? 6. Are the PCs aiming to assault the town and kill everyone, or just defending themselves and trying to escape?
Seerow 09-08-06, 12:48 AM	depends, what are the townspeople? If they're all first level commoners, I wouldn't even give experience for it. Seriously, a 4th level Fighter with Great Cleave can take out an entire village on his own in a few rounds. And that's a FIGHTER. A 5th level Wizard could just drop a Fireball and level a few buildings along with roasting a dozen or more commoners. Hell, even a 1st-2nd level character can just kind of sit there and never get hit with an AC of 20 (easily attained at first level). Now if they're something other than commoners, more details are needed.
Calestin Kethal 09-08-06, 01:03 AM	You also have to look at the fact that statistically, one in 20 of the commoners *will* hit even an epic level character, assuming no house rules. So depending on the weapons in question, every round 10 townspeople will land a blow on one of them. This also assumes they don't run screaming when they see armed adventurers coming in to town and slaughtering people. There's a lot of things that could happen. Alchemists fire available? Even a commoner can hit the attack roll on the throw for that one fairly regularly. That'd 1d6 the first round with a chance of catching fire and splash damage.
Seerow 09-08-06, 01:12 AM	You also have to look at the fact that statistically, one in 20 of the commoners *will* hit even an epic level character, assuming no house rules. So depending on the weapons in question, every round 10 townspeople will land a blow on one of them. Not really. Unless they all have ranged weapons of some sort, the fighter shouldn't have more than 8 people surrounding him. So he takes one hit every 2 and a half rounds statistically. Then he attacks and great cleaves through all 8 of them, then takes his move action to move next to some more commoners so when they attack him he cleaves through all of them. Unless of course, as you pointed out, they all run.
Calestin Kethal 09-08-06, 01:19 AM	Not really. Unless they all have ranged weapons of some sort, the fighter shouldn't have more than 8 people surrounding him. Yeah, my bad. I was thinking loaded light crossbows, since they are simple weapons. I should make these things clear. And while there is the issue of soft cover and firing into melee, a natural 20 will still hit. ;)
boozerker 09-08-06, 01:21 AM	All commoners, sprinkled with the standard amount of NPC classes for a town that size. Actually, let's say 200 able-bodied townspeople, out of a larger population. The PCs would just deal with those 200 (not women, children nor old). One 1st-level aistrocrat One 1st-level adept Seven 1st-level experts Nine 1st-level warriors Nine 1st-level NPCs One 3rd-level commoner One 3rd-level expert One 3rd level warrior Three 3rd-level NPCs One hundred sixty six 1st-level commoners By the way, PCs aren't epic, or even anything yet. The question is what level they need to be for an even fight?
Seerow 09-08-06, 01:34 AM	With the stats just given? 4th, 5th level. Maybe around 6-8 if they aren't prepared or optimized for fighting large groups. I mean, my earlier examples were assuming a 4th level Fighter at first, then any first level character with 20 AC. Some description of the party makeup could help too.
Mystyc 09-08-06, 02:32 AM	Some description of the party makeup could help too. And the win condition.
boozerker 09-08-06, 02:50 AM	It's a "what if" scenario, nobody's fighting a whole town or anything. I want a general idea the next question: a pop. 5000 city against the PCs :) Anyway yes, the town is aware of PCs and vice versa. Just got thinking, what if the PCs decide to take on a whole town -- can they? That'd be crazy. So the CR is just for a clue in a future case to know the possibilities if that looks about to happen. (if anyone wishes to figure out PCs vs. city of 5000...)
boozerker 09-08-06, 02:54 AM	And the win condition. The win condition is the same as any encounter: death or glory. The party make-up is likely to be a mix: wizard, barbarian, rogue, cleric, fighter. Why's it matter? --Some classes better than others? Use your imagination, set the scenario -- just be fair though, not too wacky.. straightforward.
Calsan 09-08-06, 04:06 AM	Won't the "higher autoraty" object? I asume they are in a country and random slaughter is not realy legal in any case. Unless your PC's are Evil random slaughter is not realy a recomended course of action. If you wana do it anyways, take a look at the Town creating section of the DMG. That should help. @Boozerker: your are talking about a 200 man army but only man??? Last time I checked 200 people in any village/town are equel woman/man.
C_K_Dalfort 09-08-06, 06:21 AM	Is it just me or should we be concidering the "campaign" goal as well, surely the challenge should be geared to the story and "DM" desired consequencies? Eg. Low CR = Legal consequencies/ Outlawed and on the run Medium CR = As above plus longer term bad feeling in the community (possible contract killers) High CR = Dont mess with my finely balanced mileu!!! lol
boozerker 09-08-06, 10:24 AM	@Boozerker: your are talking about a 200 man army but only man??? Last time I checked 200 people in any village/town are equel woman/man. Nowhere on this page is "men" or "man" mentioned except your post. :rolleyes: Is it just me or should we be concidering the "campaign" goal as well, surely the challenge should be geared to the story and "DM" desired consequencies? Haha, it's a "what if" situation, not completely serious. Forget about plots and consequences and whatever. In fact, the information gained could be used as a story hook. What happens when PCs hear that a group of NPCs slaughtered an entire town? So finding out what's possible has other advantages, as well. What level would PCs (or evil NPCs with levels in base classes) need to be against a city of 5000? Does anyone care to make an educated judgment? By the way, the city is made of humanoids, a males and ladies mix :)
dokesa 09-08-06, 11:09 AM	The PCs would just deal with those 200 (not women, children nor old). Nowhere on this page is "men" or "man" mentioned except your post. not women=men
boozerker 09-08-06, 11:28 AM	not women=men =|= ___ _ (DOH!) What I meant is no stereotype housewives, but of course there'd be warrior ladies :D
Harrowdroth 09-08-06, 11:44 AM	I'd use the mob template from Dmg2.
Calestin Kethal 09-08-06, 12:21 PM	Haha, it's a "what if" situation, not completely serious. Forget about plots and consequences and whatever. In fact, the information gained could be used as a story hook. What happens when PCs hear that a group of NPCs slaughtered an entire town? In that case, the CR of the people/NPC group should be whatever the party is supposed to be when they finally encounter said NPC group. I know that's not very much help, but if the PC's aren't doing it and it's a hypothetical plot point, the actual CR of the village doesn't matter all that much. Also, if you reference Table 3-1 in the DMG (pg 49) the chart doesn't go past 10-12 opponents per encounter. The fewer opponents the NPC group fights, the tougher the villagers. So at that point, you have to ask if the NPC adventurers are fighting the whole village at once or just pockets of them as they burn their way through town? If the question is *completely* hypothetical and you want to use it in your next rules debate…. Well, sure it’s possible. Actual CR and Encounter Level will vary depending on the needs of the story. -Calestin Kethal
boozerker 09-08-06, 12:35 PM	Also, if you reference Table 3-1 in the DMG (pg 49) the chart doesn't go past 10-12 opponents per encounter. The fewer opponents the NPC group fights, the tougher the villagers. So at that point, you have to ask if the NPC adventurers are fighting the whole village at once or just pockets of them as they burn their way through town? Definitely the whole town at once. At first a few pockets here and there, but then an entire gang-up (not because they refused to flee, but because there's only one way out, and that's where the PCs are standing). Harrowdroth's idea for the mob template from DMG2 sounds good, but I haven't gotten the book yet. Don't forget, the info is still useful to give a realistic power level of the NPC group. So as not to say "Word is they just massacered the entire city of 5000" and only make the NPCs level 3 -- not that I would make them level 3, but get the drift? It's just nice to know things like that sometimes, for whatever reason that might come by.
Ut-Napishtim 09-08-06, 01:02 PM	Oh yeah, those mob rules can turn a group of angry, hungry peasants with torches and pitchforks into a formidable opponent. :ayyyy!:
elondir 09-08-06, 01:27 PM	All commoners, sprinkled with the standard amount of NPC classes for a town that size. Actually, let's say 200 able-bodied townspeople, out of a larger population. The PCs would just deal with those 200 (not women, children nor old). One 1st-level aistrocrat One 1st-level adept Seven 1st-level experts Nine 1st-level warriors Nine 1st-level NPCs One 3rd-level commoner One 3rd-level expert One 3rd level warrior Three 3rd-level NPCs One hundred sixty six 1st-level commoners By the way, PCs aren't epic, or even anything yet. The question is what level they need to be for an even fight? That would be an EL 13 encounter, granting four 13th level characters either 0 XP (for RaW CR based) or 1,318 XP (for EL based, which is the type that I prefer to use).
Calsan 09-08-06, 04:43 PM	Oh yeah, those mob rules can turn a group of angry, hungry peasants with torches and pitchforks into a formidable opponent. Forgot about those, True Pitchforks Forward!!!
Darkuwa 09-08-06, 05:01 PM	1 fighter with DR 10 could solo a town of 200.
LCD2YOU 09-08-06, 05:14 PM	Well, if a party just walked into a town and started killing, they better be of high level. First, the only 1st level anybodies are those under the age of 18. If they are in a border town that has orc incursions, I'd say many have 2 or 3 levels of warrior as well as 3 or 4 levels of commoner as all are in the militia. If you're marching into to Pax Gardens, then it's a cake walk and the 2nd or 3rd level NPC class is the most common. Remember, it only takes a "commoner" 3 or 4 succesful hunts for deer meat to make 2nd level. At twice a year, in less than 10 years they'll be 3rd level. That's only 26 years old. By the time they reach 5th or 6th level, late 30s early 40s, it is too hard to get exp worth taking so they level out there. I don't believe in 1st level commoners being anything like "common".
boozerker 09-08-06, 11:33 PM	That would be an EL 13 encounter, granting four 13th level characters either 0 XP (for RaW CR based) or 1,318 XP (for EL based, which is the type that I prefer to use). EL 13? Wow, by the sounds of it, the rest of posters made it out to be much lower.
Seerow 09-08-06, 11:38 PM	That's because he used the CR system, which has the rule that each time you double the number of enemies, it's CR+2. Generally a good rule of the thumb, but when you have so many it breaks down. The characters once they're about 4 levels higher can pretty much ignore these creatures.
The_Jester 09-09-06, 10:56 AM	The CR would be 200 CR 1-4s. What you need is the Encounter Level.
boozerker 09-09-06, 01:25 PM	The CR would be 200 CR 1-4s. What you need is the Encounter Level. Damn, would've been better to ask for the Encounter Level right from the start.
ZeronHitaro 09-09-06, 03:06 PM	Not really. Unless they all have ranged weapons of some sort, the fighter shouldn't have more than 8 people surrounding him. So he takes one hit every 2 and a half rounds statistically. Then he attacks and great cleaves through all 8 of them, then takes his move action to move next to some more commoners so when they attack him he cleaves through all of them. Unless of course, as you pointed out, they all run. This isn't exactly true. Think about something for a moment, what happens in a riot? If you're outnumbered 200 to 4, do you think the other 168 people will stand there and watch while only 32 of them fight with each of the 4 party members? With a large group of people like this, technically this could constitute a human "swarm", minus the swarm traits. You get 200 people charging at the fighter, sure he may take out quite a few of them from AoOs, but eventually they are going to plow over and trample him underfoot. To use an analogy, it doesn't matter if you're level 1000, if your head gets crushed while you can't make any saves (via the helpless status), you're dead. Having that many people running over you in a human wall is probably a good indication of "helpless" for that moment.
Psychokinetic 09-09-06, 04:09 PM	This isn't exactly true. Think about something for a moment, what happens in a riot? If you're outnumbered 200 to 4, do you think the other 168 people will stand there and watch while only 32 of them fight with each of the 4 party members? With a large group of people like this, technically this could constitute a human "swarm", minus the swarm traits. You get 200 people charging at the fighter, sure he may take out quite a few of them from AoOs, but eventually they are going to plow over and trample him underfoot. To use an analogy, it doesn't matter if you're level 1000, if your head gets crushed while you can't make any saves (via the helpless status), you're dead. Having that many people running over you in a human wall is probably a good indication of "helpless" for that moment. What if said fighter had an item giving him freedom of movement, would the towns people still be able to trample him into helplessness? (but most likely not if the fighter was a low level) otherwise what you say kinda makes sense, if the town people tried to pin the fighter and they assisted each other, the odds are eventually they would succeed.
Jhaelen 09-09-06, 04:39 PM	That's because he used the CR system, which has the rule that each time you double the number of enemies, it's CR+2. Generally a good rule of the thumb, but when you have so many it breaks down. The characters once they're about 4 levels higher can pretty much ignore these creatures. Yup. I'd say it's effectively EL 9. That is because starting with ECL 9 adding creatures with a CR lower than one does no longer increase the difficulty in any way (which is why they no longer grant any XP). You could add 10,000 level 1 commoners without changing the ECL the slightest bit. It's totally different if you use the mob rules from DMG2, though.
boozerker 09-10-06, 12:53 AM	Yup. I'd say it's effectively EL 9. That is because starting with ECL 9 adding creatures with a CR lower than one does no longer increase the difficulty in any way (which is why they no longer grant any XP). You could add 10,000 level 1 commoners without changing the ECL the slightest bit. It's totally different if you use the mob rules from DMG2, though. Mob rules (no, not Dio's Black Sabbath). Gotta get that. (It's probably like swarm, though)
High Octane 09-10-06, 01:13 AM	I dont want to attach a number to this because I get the feeling my players would expect the resulting ECL in exp after they burn a few villages down.
Korhal_IV 09-10-06, 01:51 AM	Unless you're using the mob rules, then I would say a town of 200 commoners (give or take) would be pretty easy to destroy for a group that is 3rd or 4th level. If they are stupid enough to bring the wrath of the town down on them (say, by jumping into an assembly or church gathering with weapons drawn), then they should die. However, a smart group of evil PCs would split up the town. They might harry houses on the outskirts first, or lure stragglers on the roadside into alleyways. By the time they deal with the pub crowd or the guardhouse, they should already have done a great deal of damage.
boozerker 09-10-06, 04:40 AM	I dont want to attach a number to this because I get the feeling my players would expect the resulting ECL in exp after they burn a few villages down. Just PM me then :D If they are stupid enough to bring the wrath of the town down on them (say, by jumping into an assembly or church gathering with weapons drawn), then they should die. However, a smart group of evil PCs would split up the town. They might harry houses on the outskirts first, or lure stragglers on the roadside into alleyways. By the time they deal with the pub crowd or the guardhouse, they should already have done a great deal of damage. Nope, this would be a head-on match.