Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kraul 12-13-04, 09:15 AM	Can anyone tell how to calculate the CR of a PC?
salamander 12-13-04, 10:23 AM	For characters with a starting ECL of +0 (like the core races), it's equal to their ECL. For others, it's equal to the CR of the base character, without taking class levels into account, plus one for every class level. Examples: Dwarf Ftr 5: ECL 5, starting ECL +0, so CR 5 as well. Ogre Ftr 5: ECL 11, starting ECL +6 which is higher than +0, so CR = 3 (CR for a base Ogre, as per the MM) + 5 (5 class levels) = 8. This kind of questions is better asked on the What's a DM to do? board, btw.
Kraul 12-13-04, 11:41 AM	First of all, thank you for your answer. However, I still have some doubts about this. How can be the CR of a PC the same as that of a NPC? Player characters are more powerful than non-player characters, they have more equipment, usually better ability scores, hitpoints, etc. At lower levels it is almost the same but at higher levels there is a huge difference between a PC and a NPC.
shakedown47 12-13-04, 12:14 PM	First of all, thank you for your answer. However, I still have some doubts about this. How can be the CR of a PC the same as that of a NPC? Player characters are more powerful than non-player characters, they have more equipment, usually better ability scores, hitpoints, etc. At lower levels it is almost the same but at higher levels there is a huge difference between a PC and a NPC. Well that depends, doesn't it? At low levels even a hastily put together NPC will be a match for a PC. At high levels, good NPC's just require some work on the part of their creator. Remember, Challenge Ratings are meant to reflect a challenge that a balanced party of four PC's in good health could reasonably easily overcome. At first level, this means a 1st level fighter or wizard. At 15th level, this means a 15th level fighter or wizard. The 15th level one just has to be fully fleshed out to take advantage of 15th level abilities, which takes time. It has to be more than just a collection of BAB, AC, and damage. It has to have all of the relevant feats, spells, and skills a PC of that level would have. Many people get lazy with NPC's at higher levels, which it sounds like you have experienced.
Stuntman 12-13-04, 12:17 PM	An NPC can have just as much if not more equipment than a PC. I don't see why a level 5 PC should be any more or less powerful than a level 5 NPC of the same race and class. If you feel that the PC in question is overly powerful compared to an average character of that class, then use the encounter level modifiers and make the appropriate adjustment.
Callista 12-14-04, 05:29 AM	Probably that's a combination of the fact that PCs are tailored specifically by their players; and NPCs are mass-produced by DMs. On top of that, an NPC is held more or less strictly to the wealth by level guidelines, while a PC is often too rich for his/her level. And of course, PCs will use 32 point buy or even more, while NPCs tend to have standard stats. Ever had a DM sic an old PC of his on you? Chances are it was a tough fight. Recommendation to DMs: Go to the character optimization board. Get some of those builds. Use 'em for NPCs. Watch your players squirm. (I do not recommend the Hulking Hurler, though, unless you truly want to be lynched...)
The BO 12-14-04, 06:45 AM	taken from www.systemreferencedocuments.org Revised (v3.5) System Reference Document ADDING CLASS LEVELS If you are advancing a monster by adding player character class levels, decide if the class levels directly improve the monster’s existing capabilities. When adding class levels to a creature, you should give it typical ability scores appropriate for that class. Most creatures are built using the standard array of ability scores: 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, adjusted by racial modifiers. If you give a creature a PC class use the elite array of ability scores before racial adjustments: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Creatures with NPC classes use the nonelite array of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. T Associated Class Levels Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1. Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability. Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage. A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability. Nonassociated Class Levels If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1. Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated. I'd say this says it all....
DungeonMaster 12-14-04, 10:56 AM	Ok I understand the problem. A four person party of level X should be able to down a monster of CR X. A two person party of level X+2 should be able to down a monster of CR X. A single person of level X+4 should be able to down a monster of CR X. A PC character should of level X-4 should then be an equivalent CR X. In practice this simplistic math doesn't work out. A level 1 PC with PC wealth isn't a real fight for a level 5 party, and he never will be. However a level 3 PC with PC wealth is a pretty good fight. Level-2 should be a good estimate. Not perfect, but good. Essentially an NPC will have a higher level of spells available to him but much less material resources. These "PC" challenges should probably have a large number of limited use items if you're going to use them regularly because otherwise they're like mini gold mines for the actual player characters.
salamander 12-14-04, 11:24 AM	Ok I understand the problem. A four person party of level X should be able to down a monster of CR X. A two person party of level X+2 should be able to down a monster of CR X. A single person of level X+4 should be able to down a monster of CR X. A PC character should of level X-4 should then be an equivalent CR X. In practice this simplistic math doesn't work out. Exactly how do you get from step 3 to step 4?
Someone 12-14-04, 12:59 PM	Don't forget that almost all PC's would be subject to the +1 CR for "elite stats". Also, a 4 person party is a CR of their level +4. So two equal level parties are very likely to wipe each other out.
The BO 12-14-04, 04:20 PM	Don't forget that almost all PC's would be subject to the +1 CR for "elite stats". :banghead: :teach: You don't apply the +1CR for "elite array" when the character has a PC class :teach:
Morwen 12-14-04, 05:09 PM	Ok I understand the problem. A four person party of level X should be able to down a monster of CR X. A two person party of level X+2 should be able to down a monster of CR X. A single person of level X+4 should be able to down a monster of CR X. A PC character should of level X-4 should then be an equivalent CR X. In practice this simplistic math doesn't work out. No, but that's because you skipped tons of steps in going from 3 to 4. It should be "A PC character of level X should then be an equivalent CR X". Which it is. Remember that the character isn't supposed to be able to win the encounter; it's just supposed to be able to force the opposing group to spend 20-25% of their resources.
nevcoup 12-14-04, 05:31 PM	:banghead: :teach: You don't apply the +1CR for "elite array" when the character has a PC class :teach: Unless I misunderstood the comment, Someone is not advocating adding the +1 CR for elite stats, just helping to parse out the actual encounter strengths associated with PC's, NPC's, and monsters. :teach: