Challenge Rating? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenge Rating? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
raidzuo
10-13-06, 06:02 PM "Challenge Rating

This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty."

Does this mean a single level 10 character and 10 level 10 characters is considered the same when fighting a CR 10 monster? I don't get it.
Zherog
10-13-06, 06:04 PM The books assume a "party of adventurers" contains 4 PCs. So, a CR 10 encounter is a reasonable encounter for a group of 4 10th level PCs. It would be a really, really tough encounter for a single 10th level PC, and it'd be a cakewalk for a group of 10 10th level PCs.
SilvercatMoonpaw
10-13-06, 06:07 PM Of course, I've heard some people complain that the CRs are designed for a "standard" party consisting of one arcane caster, one healer-type (preferably cleric), one warrior type, and one rogue-type. If a party lacks a class that can fill one of these rolls, or lacks some feature that the designers included when thinking of the particular class (such as a fighter having a ranged weapon), they might be very screwed, even for a creature at or below their level.
Dragonsblood
10-13-06, 06:56 PM Can someone go over combining monsters for CR? As I understand it, two CR 10 monsters is a CR 11 encounter, then 4 CR 10s is a CR 12 encounter, 8 is 13, etc. Is this accurate? What about a CR 10 monster with 5 CR 4s?
The_Jester
10-13-06, 07:01 PM Look up "Encounter Level" in the DMG. CR of monsters does not vary or add up but the EL changes as you add or subtract monsters.
The_Jester
10-13-06, 07:03 PM http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm
Zherog
10-13-06, 07:07 PM Can someone go over combining monsters for CR? As I understand it, two CR 10 monsters is a CR 11 encounter, then 4 CR 10s is a CR 12 encounter, 8 is 13, etc. Is this accurate? What about a CR 10 monster with 5 CR 4s?

Two CR 10 creatures is an encounter level 12, but awards the XP for CR 10 twice.
Lina_Inverse
10-14-06, 03:30 AM Of course, I've heard some people complain that the CRs are designed for a "standard" party consisting of one arcane caster, one healer-type (preferably cleric), one warrior type, and one rogue-type. If a party lacks a class that can fill one of these rolls, or lacks some feature that the designers included when thinking of the particular class (such as a fighter having a ranged weapon), they might be very screwed, even for a creature at or below their level.

They did. And bad resourse mangement isnt the designers fault nor the GM's, but the players.

Players who play poorly should suffer the penaltys of failure.
Escef
10-14-06, 04:25 AM EL (Encounter Level) increases by 2 everytime you double the number of creatures. For example one CR 2 creature is EL 2, two of them is EL 4, four is EL 6, etc. Note that at a certain point the EL/CR system breaks down. A tenth level part has very dicey odds against a pack of 16 worgs because of their trip ability, especially if the worgs have surprise.

If the party is of uneven levels, the best way I've found to compute what CR/EL for them to face is to figure out what EL the party would be for an enemy and subtract 2. Note that this will also easily break down if the levels of the party are highly divergent.
raidzuo
10-14-06, 10:59 AM Thank you very much. I tried searching for CR, but had poor results. Thanks again!
Jhaelen
10-15-06, 01:36 PM If the party is of uneven levels, the best way I've found to compute what CR/EL for them to face is to figure out what EL the party would be for an enemy and subtract 2.Why substract 2? Shouldn't you have to substract 4? Examples:
4 characters with level 5: EL9; standard encounter: CR/EL 5.
4 characters with levels 3, 4, 5, 7: EL9; standard encounter: CR/EL 5.
Someone
10-15-06, 01:45 PM I can't give an exact reference, but I believe some of the other CR/EL guidelines are:
one of CR ? and one of CR ? -1 = an EL of CR ? +1.
three of CR ? = an EL of CR ? +3.

Also note that two of CR ? gives the same amount of exp as a CR ? +2. So the way I've figured out exp for an encounter with a group of creatures is to work out the equivalent EL, and then look that value up on the CR/exp table.
Escef
10-15-06, 02:05 PM Why substract 2? Shouldn't you have to substract 4? Examples:
4 characters with level 5: EL9; standard encounter: CR/EL 5.
4 characters with levels 3, 4, 5, 7: EL9; standard encounter: CR/EL 5.

It's been a while since I've had to use it. You're right, I should've said 4 instead of 2.
Jhaelen
10-16-06, 03:53 PM I can't give an exact reference, but I believe some of the other CR/EL guidelines are:
one of CR ? and one of CR ? -1 = an EL of CR ? +1.
three of CR ? = an EL of CR ? +3.
Nope for the first, yep for the second. Actually there's only two rules:
1. CR n + CR n = EL n+2 (e.g. CR 4 + CR 4 = EL6)
2. CR n + CR n-2 = EL n+1 (e.g. CR 4 + CR 2 = EL 5)
The second guideline you mention follows from applying the two rules in conjunction (first apply rule 1, then rule 2), e.g.: CR 4 + CR 4 + CR 4 = EL 6 + CR 4 = EL 7

The system is not without faults, though:
- it only really works for CR > 1 (e.g. CR 1 + CR1 is closer to EL2 than EL3)
- changing the order of applying the rules may result in a slightly different EL (fractions only)
- sometimes there's no way to get a final EL without fractions (e.g. CR 4 + CR5 + CR 6 + CR 7 + CR 8 = EL7 + EL8 + CR8 = EL7 + EL10 = EL10+ ~ EL11), if so, always round up!

There are also several Encounter Level Calculators available on the internet (I use version 4.1 from arcady (wihch is based on the ones from Tiera Starr and John Dells)) which also works off-line (sorry, can't find address right now :()
Nom
10-16-06, 07:40 PM Considering that EL is a "ready reckoner" and not a game mechanic, exact numbers aren't that important. XP is still awarded by CR, not EL.
Someone
10-17-06, 02:13 AM Nope for the first, yep for the second. Actually there's only two rules:
1. CR n + CR n = EL n+2 (e.g. CR 4 + CR 4 = EL6)
2. CR n + CR n-2 = EL n+1 (e.g. CR 4 + CR 2 = EL 5)Ah, okay then. So what's the EL for CR n + CR n-1?
Nom
10-17-06, 09:19 AM Ah, okay then. So what's the EL for CR n + CR n-1?Somewhere between n+1 and n+2. The exact value doesn't really matter, since EL is only a "rule of thumb" anyway and the EL value is never used in a game mechanic calculation.
Jhaelen
10-18-06, 06:45 PM Somewhere between n+1 and n+2. The exact value doesn't really matter, since EL is only a "rule of thumb" anyway and the EL value is never used in a game mechanic calculation.Yup. As mentioned above, in case of fractions I always round up to get the EL category (easy, challenging, very difficult, overpowering) but there's no rule about it, that's just how it works for me :)
P.S.: When selecting or rolling for treasure, the encounter's EL can be used, instead of applying the treasure entries of the individual creatures - but that's just an option.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
raidzuo 10-13-06, 06:02 PM	"Challenge Rating This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty." Does this mean a single level 10 character and 10 level 10 characters is considered the same when fighting a CR 10 monster? I don't get it.
Zherog 10-13-06, 06:04 PM	The books assume a "party of adventurers" contains 4 PCs. So, a CR 10 encounter is a reasonable encounter for a group of 4 10th level PCs. It would be a really, really tough encounter for a single 10th level PC, and it'd be a cakewalk for a group of 10 10th level PCs.
SilvercatMoonpaw 10-13-06, 06:07 PM	Of course, I've heard some people complain that the CRs are designed for a "standard" party consisting of one arcane caster, one healer-type (preferably cleric), one warrior type, and one rogue-type. If a party lacks a class that can fill one of these rolls, or lacks some feature that the designers included when thinking of the particular class (such as a fighter having a ranged weapon), they might be very screwed, even for a creature at or below their level.
Dragonsblood 10-13-06, 06:56 PM	Can someone go over combining monsters for CR? As I understand it, two CR 10 monsters is a CR 11 encounter, then 4 CR 10s is a CR 12 encounter, 8 is 13, etc. Is this accurate? What about a CR 10 monster with 5 CR 4s?
The_Jester 10-13-06, 07:01 PM	Look up "Encounter Level" in the DMG. CR of monsters does not vary or add up but the EL changes as you add or subtract monsters.
The_Jester 10-13-06, 07:03 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm
Zherog 10-13-06, 07:07 PM	Can someone go over combining monsters for CR? As I understand it, two CR 10 monsters is a CR 11 encounter, then 4 CR 10s is a CR 12 encounter, 8 is 13, etc. Is this accurate? What about a CR 10 monster with 5 CR 4s? Two CR 10 creatures is an encounter level 12, but awards the XP for CR 10 twice.
Lina_Inverse 10-14-06, 03:30 AM	Of course, I've heard some people complain that the CRs are designed for a "standard" party consisting of one arcane caster, one healer-type (preferably cleric), one warrior type, and one rogue-type. If a party lacks a class that can fill one of these rolls, or lacks some feature that the designers included when thinking of the particular class (such as a fighter having a ranged weapon), they might be very screwed, even for a creature at or below their level. They did. And bad resourse mangement isnt the designers fault nor the GM's, but the players. Players who play poorly should suffer the penaltys of failure.
Escef 10-14-06, 04:25 AM	EL (Encounter Level) increases by 2 everytime you double the number of creatures. For example one CR 2 creature is EL 2, two of them is EL 4, four is EL 6, etc. Note that at a certain point the EL/CR system breaks down. A tenth level part has very dicey odds against a pack of 16 worgs because of their trip ability, especially if the worgs have surprise. If the party is of uneven levels, the best way I've found to compute what CR/EL for them to face is to figure out what EL the party would be for an enemy and subtract 2. Note that this will also easily break down if the levels of the party are highly divergent.
raidzuo 10-14-06, 10:59 AM	Thank you very much. I tried searching for CR, but had poor results. Thanks again!
Jhaelen 10-15-06, 01:36 PM	If the party is of uneven levels, the best way I've found to compute what CR/EL for them to face is to figure out what EL the party would be for an enemy and subtract 2.Why substract 2? Shouldn't you have to substract 4? Examples: 4 characters with level 5: EL9; standard encounter: CR/EL 5. 4 characters with levels 3, 4, 5, 7: EL9; standard encounter: CR/EL 5.
Someone 10-15-06, 01:45 PM	I can't give an exact reference, but I believe some of the other CR/EL guidelines are: one of CR ? and one of CR ? -1 = an EL of CR ? +1. three of CR ? = an EL of CR ? +3. Also note that two of CR ? gives the same amount of exp as a CR ? +2. So the way I've figured out exp for an encounter with a group of creatures is to work out the equivalent EL, and then look that value up on the CR/exp table.
Escef 10-15-06, 02:05 PM	Why substract 2? Shouldn't you have to substract 4? Examples: 4 characters with level 5: EL9; standard encounter: CR/EL 5. 4 characters with levels 3, 4, 5, 7: EL9; standard encounter: CR/EL 5. It's been a while since I've had to use it. You're right, I should've said 4 instead of 2.
Jhaelen 10-16-06, 03:53 PM	I can't give an exact reference, but I believe some of the other CR/EL guidelines are: one of CR ? and one of CR ? -1 = an EL of CR ? +1. three of CR ? = an EL of CR ? +3. Nope for the first, yep for the second. Actually there's only two rules: 1. CR n + CR n = EL n+2 (e.g. CR 4 + CR 4 = EL6) 2. CR n + CR n-2 = EL n+1 (e.g. CR 4 + CR 2 = EL 5) The second guideline you mention follows from applying the two rules in conjunction (first apply rule 1, then rule 2), e.g.: CR 4 + CR 4 + CR 4 = EL 6 + CR 4 = EL 7 The system is not without faults, though: - it only really works for CR > 1 (e.g. CR 1 + CR1 is closer to EL2 than EL3) - changing the order of applying the rules may result in a slightly different EL (fractions only) - sometimes there's no way to get a final EL without fractions (e.g. CR 4 + CR5 + CR 6 + CR 7 + CR 8 = EL7 + EL8 + CR8 = EL7 + EL10 = EL10+ ~ EL11), if so, always round up! There are also several Encounter Level Calculators available on the internet (I use version 4.1 from arcady (wihch is based on the ones from Tiera Starr and John Dells)) which also works off-line (sorry, can't find address right now :()
Nom 10-16-06, 07:40 PM	Considering that EL is a "ready reckoner" and not a game mechanic, exact numbers aren't that important. XP is still awarded by CR, not EL.
Someone 10-17-06, 02:13 AM	Nope for the first, yep for the second. Actually there's only two rules: 1. CR n + CR n = EL n+2 (e.g. CR 4 + CR 4 = EL6) 2. CR n + CR n-2 = EL n+1 (e.g. CR 4 + CR 2 = EL 5)Ah, okay then. So what's the EL for CR n + CR n-1?
Nom 10-17-06, 09:19 AM	Ah, okay then. So what's the EL for CR n + CR n-1?Somewhere between n+1 and n+2. The exact value doesn't really matter, since EL is only a "rule of thumb" anyway and the EL value is never used in a game mechanic calculation.
Jhaelen 10-18-06, 06:45 PM	Somewhere between n+1 and n+2. The exact value doesn't really matter, since EL is only a "rule of thumb" anyway and the EL value is never used in a game mechanic calculation.Yup. As mentioned above, in case of fractions I always round up to get the EL category (easy, challenging, very difficult, overpowering) but there's no rule about it, that's just how it works for me :) P.S.: When selecting or rolling for treasure, the encounter's EL can be used, instead of applying the treasure entries of the individual creatures - but that's just an option.