Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RecycledDM 06-13-06, 02:01 PM	I debated whether to post this on the “Players” forum or this forum…I figured it might get better exposure here. Anyway, I am creating a dungeon for the party I DM. I dreamed up a barrier, and I’d like some insight from experienced players on methods my party might use to try and get past this barrier. You are: a “prototypical” party of four (fighter, rogue, cleric and wizard), all 4th level, of core-only races, no min-maxing, and with typical gear for your level (i.e., no weird "uber-builds" or "I have 40 Strength"). Setting: a 10 foot wide by 10 foot high masonry-walled, flagstone-floored corridor. 30 feet down the corridor is a 10 ft square, 10 ft deep spiked pit. On the other side of the pit is a massive, vertical 10’ by 10’ steel “plate” or “door,” hinged at the bottom. It appears that the door is a sort of drawbridge that comes down to cover the pit and allow passage; however, no operating mechanism can be seen. There is no ledge of any kind around the sides of the pit, nor between the pit and the steel door. The door clears the walls and ceiling by only an inch or two, and a really keen Search check notices that the door is about two inches thick. Challenge: using equipment, skills, abilities, spells, and/or magic items appropriate to the party, how do you proceed to attempt to get past this barrier? Ground Rules: You can assume that the party is fully rested up and “charged up” on spells, etc. You can also assume that you can leave the dungeon to go to a nearby small city (pop 5,500) to buy "reasonable" equipment/items if needed. Also, everything must be core-only. (I will do my best to answer questions, e.g., if you need more details, or about results of your actions, etc.)
VrecknidjX 06-13-06, 02:17 PM	Shall we assume then, that the party has some good reason to get to whatever is on the other side of the steel door? Can we also assume that there are no secret passages in the walls, ceiling, floor, or in the pit somewhere that route around the situation? If the steel door clears the ceiling by an inch or two, then, when it comes fully down, it won't cross the pit and touch the floor, unless the base moves out a little as the door comes down (or unless the height of the hall and the width of the pit really aren't exactly the same). Are the hinges visible from this side of the pit? If there are pins (like modern doors), are they on the other side? Dave
dokesa 06-13-06, 02:23 PM	Using a ladder, some rope, and a grappling hook, climb down into the pit, step around the spikes, climb up to the door, secure the grappling hook in the crack between the door and the wall, get back across, then pull on the rope. Also useful in this method would be animate rope or mules to help pull.
Neratos 06-13-06, 02:25 PM	Well here is how i would solve it. 1. Wizard casts shatter and destroys the hinges on the door. 2. Rogue takes a wad of cloth and sokes it in soverin glue and attaches it to an end of a rope 3. Fighter uses his str to throw the rope accross the spike pit and hit the door, which sticks with the sticky ball 4. Everyone grabs on and heeves, and pulls the door down into the pit. 5. Leaves the navigation of the pit, which is no real trouble
Victor_Phoenix 06-13-06, 02:35 PM	Party buys 10 Donkeys cost 80 gold. Fighter, Bard, Barbarian, Ranger, or druid uses Handle Animal DC 15 to bring the donkey into dungeon. Then bring them in front of the pit individually and tells them to stay Handle animal DC: 10 Barbarian, Paladin "least likely", Fighter, Ranger, or Monk bull rushes donkeys into the pit till it is filled to the top with donkeys. Rogue, Bard, or Ranger walks across donkey balance check DC 15 and Picks Lock or Disables Device taking a 20. This is how my Players defeated a similar trap. I hate them....
shruggar 06-13-06, 02:41 PM	(too long of a pause before starting to write and submitting..)
Victor_Phoenix 06-13-06, 02:49 PM	10 ft square, 10 ft deep spiked pit Just a sugestion a 10 foot deep pit is just to shallow and easy to fill up. Make it a Hidden pit trap DC 15 search check to find, Spot DC 20 to see casualy. make it 10ft wide by 10ft long and 30ft deep.
Shotgun_badger 06-13-06, 02:52 PM	Party buys 10 Donkeys cost 80 gold. Fighter, Bard, Barbarian, Ranger, or druid uses Handle Animal DC 15 to bring the donkey into dungeon. Then bring them in front of the pit individually and tells them to stay Handle animal DC: 10 Barbarian, Paladin "least likely", Fighter, Ranger, or Monk bull rushes donkeys into the pit till it is filled to the top with donkeys. Rogue, Bard, or Ranger walks across donkey balance check DC 15 and Picks Lock or Disables Device taking a 20. This is how my Players defeated a similar trap. I hate them.... I love them
Victor_Phoenix 06-13-06, 02:58 PM	I love them :D They are the craftiest bunch of players a DM could ever hope fore. They are only one large fault with them. We laugh more than we play, which really isn’t a fault but it can at times become......Grrvating
Seeker95 06-13-06, 03:17 PM	Have the wizard cast summon monster I into the pit. See if that triggers the plate.
Bruunwald 06-13-06, 03:30 PM	Cast levitate on the rogue and push her over the pit with a pole. An "inch or two" of clearance around the door is plenty enough for a clever rogue to get a mirror or bent wire inside to possibly see/trigger whatever might be on the other side. Go from there.
Bruunwald 06-13-06, 03:37 PM	I love them :D They are the craftiest bunch of players a DM could ever hope fore. They are only one large fault with them. We laugh more than we play, which really isn’t a fault but it can at times become......Grrvating I'm sorry... I'm sure they have done something that qualifies them as "crafty." But shoving donkeys into a spiked pit so they can walk over it does not qualify. It's excessive, yes. It's almost funny in an absurdist "why-go-to-all-that-trouble" kind of way. Sort of like when I talk too much at 2:00 AM and the more I talk, the funnier it seems to me. But mostly, this is just childish, cruel and a waste of good donkeys. I suppose it might be considered somewhat clever if your players are in junior high, and possibly forgivable if they give that behavior up before their freshman year. But "crafty" will require a better example, please.
Sulaco 06-13-06, 03:41 PM	I debated whether to post this on the “Players” forum or this forum…I figured it might get better exposure here. Anyway, I am creating a dungeon for the party I DM. I dreamed up a barrier, and I’d like some insight from experienced players on methods my party might use to try and get past this barrier. You are: a “prototypical” party of four (fighter, rogue, cleric and wizard), all 4th level, of core-only races, no min-maxing, and with typical gear for your level (i.e., no weird "uber-builds" or "I have 40 Strength"). Setting: a 10 foot wide by 10 foot high masonry-walled, flagstone-floored corridor. 30 feet down the corridor is a 10 ft square, 10 ft deep spiked pit. On the other side of the pit is a massive, vertical 10’ by 10’ steel “plate” or “door,” hinged at the bottom. It appears that the door is a sort of drawbridge that comes down to cover the pit and allow passage; however, no operating mechanism can be seen. There is no ledge of any kind around the sides of the pit, nor between the pit and the steel door. The door clears the walls and ceiling by only an inch or two, and a really keen Search check notices that the door is about two inches thick. Challenge: using equipment, skills, abilities, spells, and/or magic items appropriate to the party, how do you proceed to attempt to get past this barrier? Ground Rules: You can assume that the party is fully rested up and “charged up” on spells, etc. You can also assume that you can leave the dungeon to go to a nearby small city (pop 5,500) to buy "reasonable" equipment/items if needed. Also, everything must be core-only. (I will do my best to answer questions, e.g., if you need more details, or about results of your actions, etc.) If the lock is visible then an Open Lock check, if not then a Disable Device check. DC is up to the DM.
Sulaco 06-13-06, 03:43 PM	I'm sorry... I'm sure they have done something that qualifies them as "crafty." But shoving donkeys into a spiked pit so they can walk over it does not qualify. It's excessive, yes. It's almost funny in an absurdist "why-go-to-all-that-trouble" kind of way. Sort of like when I talk too much at 2:00 AM and the more I talk, the funnier it seems to me. But mostly, this is just childish, cruel and a waste of good donkeys. I suppose it might be considered somewhat clever if your players are in junior high, and possibly forgivable if they give that behavior up before their freshman year. But "crafty" will require a better example, please. True. To qualify as crafty they'd have had to tie ropes to the donkeys and attach them to the metal plate so that their weight when falling into the pit pulls the door open too.
FloppyLlama 06-13-06, 03:46 PM	I'm sorry... I'm sure they have done something that qualifies them as "crafty." But shoving donkeys into a spiked pit so they can walk over it does not qualify. It's excessive, yes. It's almost funny in an absurdist "why-go-to-all-that-trouble" kind of way. Sort of like when I talk too much at 2:00 AM and the more I talk, the funnier it seems to me. But mostly, this is just childish, cruel and a waste of good donkeys. I suppose it might be considered somewhat clever if your players are in junior high, and possibly forgivable if they give that behavior up before their freshman year. But "crafty" will require a better example, please. Chill out. If he thinks it's crafty, it certainly doesn't harm you, nor does it require you to insult his or his players' level of maturity.
Araciel 06-13-06, 03:53 PM	buy a whole lot of gravel and dump it into the pit, then use a battering ram to knock the fargin door down
RecycledDM 06-13-06, 04:37 PM	OK, answers to some of the questions: 1) Yes, the party has good reason to believe that they must get to the other side of the door to fulfill their objectives. 2) There are no secret doors/passages in the vicinity that route around the barrier. 3) OK, so the pit is only 9'6" across, so that the 10" (OK, 9'10"!!!) drawbridge does span the pit. 4) There is a gap between the wall and the side edge of the door, but not between the door and the wall it rests against; therefore in "real life" there would be no effective way to apply leverage with a grappling hook (though in the game I would be a dear and give this a +2 on the Open Door check, as if using a crowbar)...bear in mind though that the rope used for pulling has a break DC of 23, which is lower than the DC to (break) open the door...so this plan COULD work...but is not guaranteed. 5) The hinge is visible, and is a single, continuous pin-hinge; with a pin of 1.5 inch diameter and 10 foot length, using a density of steel of at least 7.5 g/cc, the pin alone weighs in at about 60 lbs and will not be affected by a shatter spell at caster level 4th. 6) Sovereign glue, though pretty pricey for a 4th level party, is within their means; however, just applying it to the end of a rope and throwing it at the door will not make it stick...nothing in the description for sovereign glue says it is "sticky" or "tacky," just "thick" and "viscous"...you would have to figure out some way to hold the glue-laden rope against the door for one full round in order for it to bond. Also, like in 4) above, the rope has a lower break DC than the door (chain would be better in this case...) 7) I am not yet worried about the depth of the pit, because I haven't yet seen a practical suggestion for how to fill the pit...although I might want to make it harder to see. 8) Assuming the rogue got access to the door...there is no lock to pick. The only thing to "disable" is the hinge itself; taking 20 on a Disable Device entails a risk of failure, so that would cause either the hinge to NOT be disabled, or to be "jammed" instead of disabled (say a -2 on any Open Door attempt)...I would roll randomly for that. On a successful Disable Device ROLL against the hinge's DC (say 15 plus situational modifiers), I would say the Open Door attempt would go up by +2...I would also say that if the rogue made up to three successful Disable Device rolls (say, three separate saw cuts in the hinge pin), he could add up to three +2's (total +6) on any Open Door chances. Of course, opening the door after weakening the hinge pin might cause the door to break off its hinge and fall straight down into the pit instead of being a bridge... 9) Assuming there was some practical way to fill the pit (how are you going to carry 150,000 lbs of gravel?) or otherwise “bridge” the gap, the battering ram idea could work…though it would not be easy. I’d say that two groups of two, side-by-side, using portable rams, would give a total of +6 on Open Door to the strongest guy--and starting out by breaking the hinge pin (or disabling it, as in 8) above) could give another +2 to +6.
Victor_Phoenix 06-13-06, 04:40 PM	craft·y adj. craft·i·er, craft·i·est Skilled in or marked by underhandedness, deviousness, or deception. Chiefly British. Skillful; dexterous. Steals 10 Donkeys worth 80 gold={underhandedness}. Fighter, Bard, Barbarian, Ranger, or druid uses Handle Animal DC 15 to bring the donkeys into dungeon. Then bring them in front of the pit individually and has them to stay and says everything will be okay={Deception}Handle animal DC: 10 Barbarian, Paladin "least likely", Fighter, Ranger, or Monk bull rushes donkeys into the pit till it is filled to the top with donkeys. Rogue, Bard, or Ranger walks across donkey balance check DC 15 and Picks Lock or Disables Device taking a 20= Skillfull and Dexterous. Added more deceit and showed clearly how this was done with craftiness.
Whisper_Swiftblade 06-13-06, 05:03 PM	cast knock!!! (I love knock it is so deseptivly useful)
Darkuwa 06-13-06, 05:34 PM	What holding it up? A mage hand at the top will easily be enough if it is just balancing. Both spider climb and levitate will get somone over to pull it down. True Strike then fireball to throw the little bead through the crack, the resulting explosion should nock the door down
RecycledDM 06-13-06, 05:46 PM	10) At 4th caster level, knock can only affect a door up to 40 sq ft in area; this door is about 100 sq ft. 11) If I understand what Darkuwa is saying, he is suggesting that the door is being held up--just prevented from tipping forward--by a mage hand spell...that's a good one, but not what's going on here.
Darkuwa 06-13-06, 05:50 PM	No, I'm saying use a mage hand to push it down. We need to know what is holding it up still. If nothing is holding it up theres 3 million ways to get it down, but we won't be able to guess wich ones work until you give a better description.
RecycledDM 06-13-06, 06:34 PM	Sorry Darkuwa, I misunderstood you. Let's just say that any attempt to pull on/pry open the door reveals that there is indeed something substantial holding the door in place. OK, Let's go back to something Bruunwald alluded to earlier and say that after enough poking around, the climbing/and or levitated rogue (or whomever...someone with darkvision, a hooded lantern, the ability to cast light, or some other way to see into the darkness beyond the door) finds a "gap" at the edge of the door just wide enough to peek through. They see that the mechanism for operating the door is a pair of chains, through some rings set into the ceiling, leading down to some capstans...your traditional drawbridge mechanism. The capstans appear to be designed to be operated by a pair of Large humanoids.
Whisper_Swiftblade 06-13-06, 07:29 PM	10) At 4th caster level, knock can only affect a door up to 40 sq ft in area; this door is about 100 sq ft. . oh right level 4, even with an empowered knock spell that would still be too low. Never mind then.
ArcTan 06-13-06, 09:29 PM	Party buys 10 Donkeys cost 80 gold. Fighter, Bard, Barbarian, Ranger, or druid uses Handle Animal DC 15 to bring the donkey into dungeon. Then bring them in front of the pit individually and tells them to stay Handle animal DC: 10 Barbarian, Paladin "least likely", Fighter, Ranger, or Monk bull rushes donkeys into the pit till it is filled to the top with donkeys. Rogue, Bard, or Ranger walks across donkey balance check DC 15 and Picks Lock or Disables Device taking a 20. This is how my Players defeated a similar trap. I hate them.... The only reason this idea makes any sense is because the price of donkeys is more prominent in the PHB than the price of great big buckets of mud or bales of cotton, but I'm willing to bet the total cost of just pouring tons of mud or gravel into the pit would've been a *lot* cheaper, even if it would've taken more work. And doing that with a trap like this, assuming time is not a problem here, is a perfectly sensible thing to do. In fact, *most* traps are amenable to this kind of stupid solution, and the reason they're still threatening is that, for most adventuring parties, time *is* a factor. I assume that any solution that requires going back and forth to the surface for a matter of days is not a viable one in this scenario.
jaelis 06-13-06, 11:29 PM	So there is no difficulty with the party climbing a ladder down into the pit and another ladder up to the door? Could the wizard peek through the crack and cast a spell on the chains or capstans? He could try to shatter a link of the chains, or grease the capstans and turn them with mage hand. Acid arrow might be able to break the chains. If the door might fall on him, another character could stand by and prop it up. The door should have hardness 10 and 60 hit points. Eventually, the fighter should be able to smash through it. Vials of acid might help. Perhaps he could target just the pin, if you think the door is big enough to have a lot more hit points. A silence spell would keep the neighbors from complaining. Before trying anything, an augury to see if it is a bad idea never hurts.
Darkuwa 06-14-06, 03:04 AM	Scrolls of gaseous form.
Shaggy_Shaggs 06-14-06, 07:10 AM	6) Sovereign glue, though pretty pricey for a 4th level party, is within their means; however, just applying it to the end of a rope and throwing it at the door will not make it stick...nothing in the description for sovereign glue says it is "sticky" or "tacky," just "thick" and "viscous"...you would have to figure out some way to hold the glue-laden rope against the door for one full round in order for it to bond. vis·cous adj. 1. Having relatively high resistance to flow. 2. Viscid; sticky. This looks like a job for the fighter, though. HP enough to ignore the pit of spikes, Power Attack, and an adamantine two-hander go a long way toward solving problems like this.
Seeker95 06-14-06, 10:22 AM	Nobody is commenting on my suggestion to the arcane caster summoning something?
rogue_lettuce 06-14-06, 11:38 AM	Nobody is commenting on my suggestion to the arcane caster summoning something? You could give it a go. Personally I'd be inclined to get the wizard over the pit [wedge a ladder in place, fill it, or whatever method you prefer] and cast burning hands around the side [hopefully he has good reflexes] because it would seem to me as if there's a rope on the other side holding it up. If I were unlucky though, it could be a chain, which wouldn't burn and might throw me off for another 5 minutes. :( Other than that I'd probably try and get a horse or strong barb/fighter/etc down there, attach a chain to them, tie it around the door, wedge something in the gap above so the chain doesn't just slip off, and then tell them to pull. Hehe.
jaelis 06-14-06, 11:55 AM	Nobody is commenting on my suggestion to the arcane caster summoning something? It's a good idea to check for additional traps in the pit. I'd make that the first step, then the second would be to send the rogue into the pit to look for mechanisms. Then send the rogue up the other side to inspect the door. I got the impression from the OP that there's nothing to find on this side of the door.
RecycledDM 06-14-06, 12:37 PM	Seeker95, Tossing the poor summoned creature into the pit results only in an impaled creature; sorry, no pressure trigger. Shaggy_Shaggs, I would still rule, from my reading of the DMG, that the glu-ey end of the rope would have to be held in place while the glue sets (for 1 round)...kinda like super-glue. That could be accomplished with a 10' pole and an extended arm, I would think (possibly with a balance check if no other party member says they brace the pole-holder). I'd also say that an adamantine weapon in the hands of a 4th level character, while certainly possible, is at about the upper limit of economic possibility...you also didn't explain how your fighter would reach the door to bash it in. jaelis, You are correct, there is really nothing more to find on this side of the door, apart from that "crack" or "gap" that Bruunwald located earlier. I would rule that, should the wizard manage to get over to the crack, he could easily either shatter the chain(s) on the other side, or use the mage hand to yank levers and put the capstans into "freespool" mode. Of course, if you shattered both chains or freespooled both capstans, you'd better elaborate on that plan for having someone stand by and prop up the door, since it weighs some 8000 lbs! I would rule that the mage hand is not strong enough to actually "operate" the capstan (i.e., slowly lower the door), even with the grease spell. Darkuwa, Gaseous form sounds like a great way for someone to slip through the crack. ------- (Now I think I've got to make this pit deeper, to get around the simple ladder trick; then again, if some fighter wants to stand at the top of a ladder and bash the door, some wicked balance checks might be in order...) ------- So far, between Bruunwald's rogue finding that gap, and either jaelis' or Darkuwa's wizard shattering chains/freespooling capstans or gaseous form-ing through the crack, I think we're getting somewhere! (By the way, in case you hadn't noticed, I am taking all your "suggestions" and incorporating the ones I like as I go along...in effect, you are helping me create this encounter. I do want the party to be able to get around this barrier, but not TOO easily, and preferably WITHOUT having to go back to town!)
Sulaco 06-14-06, 12:56 PM	8) Assuming the rogue got access to the door...there is no lock to pick. The only thing to "disable" is the hinge itself; taking 20 on a Disable Device entails a risk of failure, You can take 20 when there are no consequences of failure (such as setting off a trap of falling off a cliff). In this case there are no consequence of failure apart from failure, thus they can take 20 on it.
Sulaco 06-14-06, 12:59 PM	8) Assuming the rogue got access to the door...there is no lock to pick. The only thing to "disable" is the hinge itself; taking 20 on a Disable Device entails a risk of failure, You can take 20 when there are no consequences of failure (such as setting off a trap of falling off a cliff). In this case there are no consequence of failure apart from failure, thus they can take 20 on it. By enforcain an affective "fumble" result on the check in this instance you are unfairly penalizing your players for using their skills and the game rules as designed. The scenario/puzzle/door you describe is not particularly difficult and numerous methods for defeating it have been given.
Insane Pixie 06-14-06, 01:06 PM	I go around.
Bruunwald 06-14-06, 01:31 PM	Chill out. If he thinks it's crafty, it certainly doesn't harm you, nor does it require you to insult his or his players' level of maturity. But it does give me the opportunity to have a little sarcastic fun at his players' expense. And since you did not detect that, perhaps you need a chill out of your own. But is this really a battle worth fighting? Let's recap, shall we? I'm insulting him for not agreeing that going back to town to get donkeys to bring to a spiked pit underground so they can be pushed in and impaled as a means of crossing said pit, is "crafty?" I'm sorry. I appreciate that you are a person who defends others. Me too. In this case though, I think the donkeys and decency (not to mention common sense) are a little more in need of defending. After all, who is doing the insulting here? Him for gloating about the extravagant lengths gone to, to perpetrate a violent act, you for defending it, or me for merely pointing it out as silly? (In case you aren't sure, now I'm having a little sarcastic fun at your expense.)
Bobmakenzie 06-14-06, 01:37 PM	Stoneshape spell would be the easiest way to go. 700 gold for a scroll (Ok the wizard has a good chance to failure) but itw ould be fairly simple and easy to buy two or so and get at least one off. DAve-
Drachasor 06-14-06, 01:44 PM	10 feet across and 10 feet up to the top of this thing? That's about 14 feet diagnally (square root of 2 times 10). Let's say one of the party members is 5.5' tall. Enlarge him. Now he is 11' tall. His armspan is also about 11'. So he can reach about 15' in total. One hand up against the wall, and the other hand is use to pull down the bridge (after using a thin tool to pry open some finger room of course). Give him a Bull Strength form the Cleric for good measure (Total +6 strength bonus). Of course, tie a rope around his waist so if he shrinks back while doing this he doesn't fall into the pit. If he can pry it all the way open, then you are done. If he can pry it a few inches, then have the Wizard's familiar check things out. If he can pry it a foot or more, then have the rogue climb up the wall and sneak in. There is likely a mechanism inside that can be activated. Beyond that, buy some vials of acid and break the hinge up into shatterable parts. -Drachasor
Clawhound 06-14-06, 02:02 PM	If I understand this right, (or bothering to read any other answers, and giving myself one minute to think of non-magical, easy-to-do things.) 1. Fill the pit with dirt. 2. Use a battering ram to break the door. Alternately, 1. Fill the pit with branches, stones pulled from dungeon walls, etc. 2. Use battering ram. Alternately, 1. Build wooden platform from timbers and a few extra doors. Alternately, 1. Pull out a door. Throw that down onto the spikes. Jump down. Tallest character holds up another character. Chisel out around one hinge. Wedge the door down by breaking the second hinge.
DeathsAudit 06-14-06, 02:33 PM	15ft ladder. :D
Seeker95 06-14-06, 03:51 PM	passwall. Not through the door, but through the wall near the door. Although the party cannot directly cast it, they could use a scroll of passwall, albeit with a risk of failure. Then, either go around the door completely, or walk up to the opening behind it, cut the chains, go back, and walk across.
Varia 06-14-06, 05:28 PM	You carry 150k lbs of gravel/dirt to fill the pit the same way people always have- teams of porters with baskets or wheelbarrows, depending on your level of technology. Just dig dirt etc from somewhere just outside the dungeon, carry it in and dump it in the hole. Should take a team of 20 porters less than a day to carry the dirt, depending how long a walk it is from the entrance to the hole. Obviously not practical when youre on a schedule, but there are times when brute force of that type is practical, and when it is, well there ya go! :) *Hugs* Varia
Archmage_Vall 06-14-06, 05:47 PM	Have the wizard cast Knock on the drawbridge, then everyone quickly runs across before it closes again. or Have the rogue make a bluff check, yelling, "Hello!! Your gold is here, but I need you to open the door so I can deliver it."
Thiez 06-14-06, 06:10 PM	Let's ignore the pit trap. It means nothing. If you're really bored, you can have the cleric stand there and keep on casting 'create water' till it's full. Maybe get a ladder, and get the wiz or the clr to summon a monster behind the door? If you get a scroll of summon monster III, you can get a hellhound -> Int 6, smart enough to understand "Destroy whatever's holding this door shut". Use blink to walk through the door? Needs scroll. Gaseous form has been suggested. Would work. Shrink item on the door would work too. Needs scroll A good way to prevent the door from falling open upon your party members is to have the wizard ARCANE LOCK it :)
Vanigo 06-15-06, 12:50 AM	Use mage hand or animate rope to put ropes through the gap, loop them around the handles of the capstans, and pull on them. You'll have to reloop it every quarter turn or so, of course, but mage hand has a duration of concentration, so that's no big deal.
green_yawgmoth 06-15-06, 01:21 AM	Party buys 10 Donkeys cost 80 gold. Fighter, Bard, Barbarian, Ranger, or druid uses Handle Animal DC 15 to bring the donkey into dungeon. Then bring them in front of the pit individually and tells them to stay Handle animal DC: 10 Barbarian, Paladin "least likely", Fighter, Ranger, or Monk bull rushes donkeys into the pit till it is filled to the top with donkeys. Rogue, Bard, or Ranger walks across donkey balance check DC 15 and Picks Lock or Disables Device taking a 20. This is how my Players defeated a similar trap. I hate them.... Throw enough goblins at a problem and it'll go away. Or you'll have less goblins around. Either way, win. :D http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
the_smoking_spell 06-15-06, 01:23 AM	maybe get a portable ram and bash the door down? i also heard some really good ones, like the spell knock or mage hand. The pit trap isn't that much of a problem. Go back to town and get stuff to fill it up with. I heard create water somewhere in the thread. The donkey thing was a good idea to. So many possibilities.
StarDrifter 06-15-06, 01:36 AM	get the cleric up to where he can see the humanoids operating the thing and cast command and tell them to lower it.
Molitor 06-15-06, 01:44 AM	Simple. Melf's Acid Arrow/Scorching Ray/Acid Splash till you get a hole big enough for the largest character to get through, then throw a rope and grapple across through the hole after the acid has dried. PCs climb through hole. I think acid ignores hardness though I could be wrong. Or Melf's Acid Arrow/Scorching Ray/Acid Splash on the spikes until a fighter with enlarge person cast on him can get in there and swing a weapon or pick axe at the stone floor under the door. Crawl through hole. A fighter with str arround 20(thanks to the spellcaster's bull strength) and power attack will do more than enough damage in the 4 minutes to get the party in. Actually the fighter might not need to be in the pit at all considering that his reach is now 10', but I guess that is the DMs call.
Sphyre 06-15-06, 07:11 AM	cast knock!!! (I love knock it is so deseptivly useful) my first thoughts exactly. Simple, easy. As a druid I can think of a billion other creative ways to get past it, although they can take higher level slots than 2nd level.
Pindar 06-15-06, 08:16 AM	Bang on the door and make a load of noise. When something comes to investigate make it clear the door is being fixed close with spikes or whatever. Then whoever is on the otherside of the door will either attempt to stop this possibly opening the door allowing readied fighters to charge them. Or they will completly ignore it because they know of another way in which the players should go look for. Or they get reinforcements and come looking for the party, the party move away and try to ambush the creatures that come out and then make one of them tell them how to get in. Edit: you don't say what the ceiling is. If its natural/unworked stone then a 2nd level druid spell Soften Earth and Stone will let you scoop away the ceiling to get past it.
Clawhound 06-15-06, 09:02 AM	A few more: * Summon a bombadier beetle and melt the door with acid. (This is how we killed a fire troll on the elemental plane of fire when we had no ice.) * Shatter (if you are high enough level) * Vials of acid on the hinges * Go to an area above it and bore down. (Not practical, but it works.) * While others are working, your rogue searches the area for a hidden secret door into the rear of the complex. :P * Find a creature handler with a rust monster and rent the critter for a few days. * Have a metalsmith rivet handles to the doors. Hire donkeys. Now pull. (No donkeys were harmed in the making of this solution.)
rogue_lettuce 06-15-06, 10:05 AM	my first thoughts exactly. Simple, easy. As a druid I can think of a billion other creative ways to get past it, although they can take higher level slots than 2nd level. I would agree where it not for the fact that I think this is technically a drawbridge rather than a door. As such, I don't think knock will open it. *barred gates/portcullis* sound more similar to this than *door/chest* in my opinion. And the spell specifically states it doesn't work on the former.
Puggins 06-15-06, 11:52 AM	Using spells the wizard can cast: Levitate over to the little opening. Use Dimensional Hop (or whatever the mini dim-door is at second level) to get to the other side, since the wizard can now see the space he wants to hop to. Open drawbridge and let party in.
speeblefreak 06-15-06, 12:40 PM	Simple. Melf's Acid Arrow/Scorching Ray/Acid Splash till you get a hole big enough for the largest character to get through, then throw a rope and grapple across through the hole after the acid has dried. PCs climb through hole. I think acid ignores hardness though I could be wrong. Arr, beat me to it.
FloppyLlama 06-15-06, 01:22 PM	But it does give me the opportunity to have a little sarcastic fun at his players' expense. And since you did not detect that, perhaps you need a chill out of your own. Nah, just learn to expect that sarcastic fun doesnt' convey particularly well on the internet, especially when jerks freely roam message boards making uncalled for insults it will :P But is this really a battle worth fighting? Nope. Hence why I am leaving my responses to this, and the previous comment which you m ight want to keep in mind. =)
ginja_ninja 06-15-06, 02:30 PM	7) I am not yet worried about the depth of the pit, because I haven't yet seen a practical suggestion for how to fill the pit...although I might want to make it harder to see. Filling the pit with murky water would make it harder to judge depth, could turn the spikes into a nasty surprise, and make it much harder to fill. In the Arms and Equipment Guide, there are several items that could help - grappling ladder at 40gp, to hook into the gap at the top, a pulley at 5gp, to use in pulling rope attached to the top, or stilts, at5gp, to cross the pit.
DGrey 06-15-06, 04:00 PM	My group of players have seen similar things in the past. 10 Steps to get past any similar trap/door at 4th level: 1. Have the cleric, or party if the cost is an issue, purchase a scroll of stone shape. 2. Tie 2 ropes around the cleric taking twenty if need be. 3. Have the wizard cast levitate on the cleric. 4. Push the cleric out past the pit to the door. 5. Cleric casts Stone Shape around where the door is attached to the floor/wall, causing the floor/wall to flow away from where the door is attched to the floor/wall. Congradulations the door is no longer attached to anything and should fall with a nice big bang sounding noise. If he has enough volume left have him make a crude closed-loop handle. 6. Pull the cleric back over to the party with the ropes, and re push him over to the now cleared section of the hallway. 7. The cleric ties a rope to his newly-made closed-loop handle. 8. Pull the cleric back over to the party. 9. With 3 people holding on to the end of rope, the heaviest member, non-cleric climbs across. Repeat process until only the cleric is on the initial side. 10. Pull the cleric back over to the other side of the pit. Tada! you're across.
Sphyre 06-15-06, 05:53 PM	I would agree where it not for the fact that I think this is technically a drawbridge rather than a door. As such, I don't think knock will open it. *barred gates/portcullis* sound more similar to this than *door/chest* in my opinion. And the spell specifically states it doesn't work on the former. He kinda described it as a drawbridge like door, considering he said it's in a freaking hallway. I'm well aware of what knock can open. And considering he said it actually WAS a door, I don't see why it wouldn't open it. If he would like to amend his statement about his door, then he can, but then my using knock would no longer apply if it isn't a door. Personally, I always find the most inventive ways to go about things as a druid. I'd have no problem with spiderclimbing over and using stoneshape to get past. I remember spiderclimbing over an underground river with a rope to allow the other side to get the bridge across (that had been rolled up on the other side) and then when someone cut the rope on us, I used stoneshape to create a bridge for them. Fun stuff :)
benstundze 06-15-06, 08:05 PM	wizerd cast fireball in same spot over and over till rogue can get through then a rope shimmy acrost and your through
rogue_lettuce 06-16-06, 08:40 AM	He kinda described it as a drawbridge like door, considering he said it's in a freaking hallway. I'm well aware of what knock can open. And considering he said it actually WAS a door, I don't see why it wouldn't open it. If he would like to amend his statement about his door, then he can, but then my using knock would no longer apply if it isn't a door. Arguably the spell says it opens DOORS, not THINGS DESCRIBED BY THE DM AS DOORS WHEN IN FACT BETTER JUDGEMENT TELLS US THEY ARE DRAWBRIDGES. But now we're looking too in-depth haha. But personally as a DM even if I did make the mistake of describing it as a door [remember the OP could have limited English] I wouldn't allow knock to work on something like that. Unless my mental image is wrong. :twocents: And I wasn't saying you were dumb or anything. Just that I wasn't sure it would work, technically. :)
RecycledDM 06-16-06, 01:44 PM	Wow, so many replies! I know I won't be able to respond to everything in this thread, but I try to respond to / rebut / elaborate upon a few: rogue_lettuce, Sphyre: I would rule this to be a door subject to a knock spell, considering: a) I called it a door; b) it is hinged, like a door; however, let's remember that it would take a 10th caster level knock spell to open a door with a 100 sq ft area. This would not be an "off the shelf" item, and the nearby town of 5,500 would not be likely to have a wizard or sorceror of high enough level to commision such an item from. To all those suggesting the use of a stone shape spell; I'd have to think about that one...the spell description says "You can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits your purpose..." Now, is an entire wall made of masonry blocks a "piece" of stone, or is each individual block a "piece" of stone? Hmmm....(And yes, the ceiling is made of masonry, too!) ginja_ninja: I've got to get my hands on that Arms & Equipment Guide. To all those who want to fill the pit with gravel, donkeys, kobolds, or what have you...I've obviously got to make it deeper (like 40 feet), probably hide it somehow (illusionary cover or mechanical trapdoor), and I've clearly got to put a time limit--even if measured in days--on the adventurers' need to get past the door. To all those who want to bang on the door: Due to the nature of the planned encounters on the other side of the door, banging on the door will get no response. BTW, whoever it is that operates the capstans cannot be seen from the crack beside the door. To all those that want to use fire and/or acid to get through the door. Yes, that would work, given enough spell usage...and it would take ALOT of spell usage (and/or scrolls). Remember, these guys are only 4th level...they don't know fireball. Acid is likely better. Puggins: What is the "2nd level mini-dimension door" spell you refer to? Thiez: Seems like the wizard could blink through the door quite easily, yes (once he found a way to GET to the door, such as levitate). As for shrink item, where are you gonna find a 50th caster level scroll? Seeker95: Please elaborate on your use of passwall (assuming such a scroll could be found for sale in the town). Drachasor: The Enlarge and Bull's strength route would certainly improve the fighter's chances of opening the door; however, starting with a 16 STR and given the DC of the door (not disclosed here), he would still need further assistance to have ANY chance of opening it (crowbar, another helper, the rogue having first disabled the hinge, etc.). I consider this to be the most efficient (and cost-effective!) start to a "brute strength" strategy I have heard so far. Insane Pixie: Please elaborate on "I go around." Sulaco: I would not allow a take 20 on the rogue attempting to disable the hinge. There most certainly is a consequence of failure...namely, the rogue thinking he has succeded when he hasn't. Quote from SRD: "If you’re attempting some sort of sabotage, you think the device is disabled, but it still works normally." I do concede that the RAW does not support a consequence such as "jamming" the hinge on a failure. I also concede that this barrier is, as you say, "not particularly difficult," given the level of experience of many players on this board and my generosity (or stupidity :D ) in a) not putting a time limit on the task, b) allowing the party to go shopping for items. To all: Please note that my intention here is NOT to say "I am an uber-DM and you will never get past my barrier!" Truth is, my party is NOT all that experienced (nor am I as a DM, frankly), and I am mostly looking for ideas about what kind(s) of low-level magic item(s) (e.g., a scroll or two) I should pepper the dungeon with so that the party, with a little ingenuity, CAN get through. My plan is to use this barrier as a "teaching tool" for my party. Note also that the arcane caster in my party is actually a sorceror, so all those handy "utility" spells just ain't there...got to be scrolls.
RecycledDM 06-16-06, 02:12 PM	Ok, so to add to what I said above, and to take this duscussion to the next phase... Let's now twist the plot a bit and say that the party has reason to believe that they must get through this barrier within a matter of hours...thus going back to town to go shopping or to hire help is not an option. Also, let's say the pit is now 40' deep, so that filling it is made less practical. Also, as is the true case with my party, the arcane caster is a 4th level sorcerer, so his spells known doesn't include much in the way of utility spells (he does have a wand with a few charges of Bull's Strength). Given these twists, what one (or maybe two) minor magic item(s) (say upper value limit of around 1500 gp apiece), would be most helpful in getting around this door?
benstundze 06-16-06, 03:45 PM	if the wall is still 2 inches thick then id still say that 3 flaming sphere's lasting4 rounds each could easely melt through it then through a grapiling hook through the hole and have the rogue go through and pull the leaver
benstundze 06-16-06, 03:50 PM	my 2end stradigy is to have the sorcerer levitate himself and then alter him self to slip through the gap and pull the leaver maby you can put a 2end lvl rogue kolbolt on the other side to attack any who climbs of forces there way through iv hered the saying if its to easy through a few kolbolt's at it hehe
Big_Mac 06-16-06, 04:16 PM	Not know why the party is going in here... They could try some type of trickery to get the "Door" open. Injured party member, or faking as someone in-charge.
Sulaco 06-16-06, 04:19 PM	Sulaco: I would not allow a take 20 on the rogue attempting to disable the hinge. There most certainly is a consequence of failure...namely, the rogue thinking he has succeded when he hasn't. That is an interesting interpretation of the rule. Not one I would make but it's your game. In what way, then, would any skill check not have a consequence for failure? By consequence they meant stuff like setting off a trap you are tryin gto disable, falling off a cliff you are trying to clime, etc. In other words real, demonstrable failures, not just "Okay, I think it worked. Let's find out." However, like I said, it's your game so play it as makes you happy. I think you are needlessly and unfairly compromising a valid skill use, and thus negating points the player has invested in said skill and his PC, but as long as your players have fun then roll with it.
Vaelan 06-16-06, 04:23 PM	I read two-inch thick steel, so I'm going to go with that. Arcane spellcasters get Orb of Sound, which deals 2d6 sonic (hardness-bypassing) damage. Average damage of 7 means it would take 9 castings of Orb of Sound to get through it. Any level 4 Sorcerer can cast it exactly this many times in a single day.
Sphyre 06-16-06, 05:08 PM	And I wasn't saying you were dumb or anything. Just that I wasn't sure it would work, technically. :) I know you weren't saying I'm dumb, esspecially because of what you said in the other thread about me... But the fact remains that the difference between our opinions would be that of interpretation. Is a door still a door if it has more thon 3 hinges, or only 1? What if the hinges are at the bottom or the top? What if it's made out of people? What if it's animate? Is it still a door? Really... we're not going to see eye to eye on this, because obviously the DM is the one who makes the call, esspecially since he made the door! erm... barrier. But we're not in a game in which the adjucation of whether knock would work on this 'barrier' or not. If it falls under the definition of a door, then it works. If it doesn't, and falls under a different category of barrier, it doesn't. The problem lies in that we have a shoddy description, not that either of us don't know what the knock spell does.
grelna 06-17-06, 01:33 AM	I'd guess there are lots of ways to do this but I always think of the way I'd do it if I were in the party. I play wizards. So, I'm in the party... The wizard, Timkin, casts Levitate from a scroll on himself. Then Timkin pulls himself self along the ceiling until he has reached the door. Meanwhile, Piggli the rogue wrinkles her nose and grouses about how this is totally cheating. Timkin now casts Rope Trick on a 30' length of rope directly next to the door. Timkin mysteriously rises into the extradimensional space he has now created. He could now quite easily see what is on the other side of the door if he wanted, because Rope Trick creates a 3 foot by 5 foot window leading from the extradimensional space to normal reality, centered on the rope. However, Timkin is a wizard and thus his head is far too precious to risk by poking it into possible danger. That's what fighters are for. And so Timkin magnanimously throws the dangling end of the rope to the best climber in the party, who just coincidentally is the fighter, Groog. Groog climbs up the rope, but only after Piggli uses her Use Rope skill to rig a harness to ensure he can't fall all the way to the bottom of the pit. Groog makes a crude comment while Piggli is wrapping rope around him, but just as she decides to deliberately sabotage the knots, the cleric, Zeke, smooths over the dispute with a successful Diplomacy roll. Groog climbs up the rope, and then pulls up Zeke and Piggly. Now the entire party is in an extradimensional space looking down into the room on the other side. The only real problem they've got is that if they go down the other side, the doorway out is not immediately open to them if they have to flee, although the extradimensional space will remain there for close to four hours more. If they see creatures to fight Zeke will buff himself and/or Groog and then the two of them will slide down the rope (which has had the dangling end thrown down the other side of the door, even though its anchor point is unchanged) and attack for surprise while Piggli sneak attacks with a ranged weapon. Timkin probably stays where he is, feeling that his part is done, unless a Sleep spell looks as if it would prevent an alarm being given, in which case he levitates down just far enough to be out of the area of the Rope Trick. And that is how a low level wizard might solve a big metal door with adjoining pit. Of course, Timkin will start to make himself obnoxious to his party immediately afterwards by talking up how essential he is to the party's success, saying that, without him, they would have had to watch what Groog does to donkeys again. But never fear, Timkin will learn his lesson when Piggli steals some of his treasure in town the next day, even though he can never prove it, and Zeke starts talking about the need to conserve his healing spells for the party members that contribute, and Groog's breath has bothered Timkin even before this. So Timkin is properly humbled. Until the next time, anyway.
rogue_lettuce 06-17-06, 05:50 AM	The problem lies in that we have a shoddy description, not that either of us don't know what the knock spell does. Agreed although I wouldn't be so harsh on the OP. Hahaha. Well it appears he ruled that you won that argument anyway. :P
StarDrifter 06-17-06, 10:54 AM	so levitating the cleric over to the gap (where you said he can see the humanoids at the winch) so he can command one of the humanoids to lower the gate with a spell...