Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gamer_Zer0 12-05-07, 10:00 AM	This thread is based on the one a thread started about how D&D and games like it are often banned in certain groups and organizations. If you would like to continue the discussion on this specific topic, please do so here. Thanks!
Owlperson2007 12-05-07, 07:11 PM	Thank you, G0, I was wondering where the buttons had gone while reading that one and hoped I hadn't been booted from my account by accident. I agree, it did degenerate, one mention of the word Israel and you usually have that kind of debate. I do understand about the need for a political CoC but we occasionally need to vent ;) sometimes. It's not just Israel but over here (Britain) as well. Louise and I have been looking for game shops and have found a lot closed down with next to no warnings about it (one in High Wycombe looks as if it had been ransacked three or four years ago and just left like that: the adverts on the door were for the Scourge Magic expansion, and after doing our research I found out Scourge was on sale in 2003...). The only one still doing a good trade is the one in Reading across the road from the bus and train station; Folkestone doesn't appear to have anywhere to buy the books at all. As a former gamer (1974-79, but Louise is teaching me Magic) I am sad and a little bit suspicious that it is gaming shops that are going at a time when gaming seems to be doing quite well as a hobby, and when kids need something to be promoted as a respectable hobby to take out their frustrations elsewhere than on members of the public. I am about the only person of my generation who would buy his grandson :):):D a playstation or similar because of the gratuitous violence; from experience I know that but for a feeling of knowing it is the wrong thing to do there are times when I could have strangled some of my colleagues and expiating this tendency towards bloodlust is an important facet of gaming where you legitimately get to put pen to paper and with the roll of the dice can cut off the head of the irritating little goblin, not have to toe the line and say, "Yes, Volpone, whatever you say, Volpone, certainly you can have my parliamentary seat for one of your cronies, I'm not done with it but you are my leader now and my life is your command..is that a press release saying I'm too old and want to try other things? why certainly I'll sign it, just put that gun away and ow...careful of that cigarette, I just got this place re-carpeted". As for Israel to be honest I am not surprised - militaries often need people to concentrate on the task at hand and being a member of the IDF is more of a full-time job than being a member of the British or American forces; BUT still it possibly shows a little reluctance on behalf of the high command to accept the positive aspects of gaming. As I point out a lot, gaming can have a cathartic effect on the system of impulses that lead to random violence in society, and most armies simulate warfare to train their troops without throwing them headlong into combat. Relieving troops of the tendency to destructive and over-enthusiastic violence is an important part of modern warfare because the nature of the "game" has changed from full-scale carnage to precision technology and, rightly or wrongly, demands a better-trained and more professional force. Gaming must have some relevance to this but what I read in the article does make sense - that it should possibly be orientated at actual situations rather than fantastic adventures in whatever "woods" there are in Israel itself. I feel the army wants to control wargaming and tactical practice and needs its forces on high alert for the duration of their service.
CosmicChaos 12-05-07, 08:05 PM	The US has fewer gaming and comic book stores. The profit margins on the books are not large enough to pay rent and other rising costs in several areas. Most of the gamers from my area have to do all their shopping on-line. I know it means for me that I buy less gaming books, mostly due to lower exposure. I have gone back to learning about gaming books at conventions.
kelvinaw273 12-06-07, 11:40 AM	I would have to say that Amazon and it's ilk has probably done away with many gaming stores, but the first nail in their coffin over here in the UK was Games Workshop. Also, you can buy RPGs in Waterstones and other book shop chains. Gaming itself is doing well, but the small enthusiast's corner store is as much a thing of the past in gaming as any other hobby that moves into the mainstream. The acceptability of gaming seems to have improved greatly from the late 70s and 80s and the days of BADD and the Satanic Panic, games are more widespread and players are from a much broader spectrum. That said I am sure there are still places and groups that condemn gaming for some reason or another - but I think they are getting rarer.
Seeker95 12-06-07, 01:50 PM	I would have to say that Amazon and it's ilk has probably done away with many gaming stores, but the first nail in their coffin over here in the UK was Games Workshop.I am not completely disagreeing with your assessment -- only adjusting it based on some of the things I have seen. Amazon and its ilk are the mechanism by which we-the-gamers are not as sorry to see the loss of the gaming stores. It did not do away with the gaming stores. Gaming store decisions did away with many gaming stores. In speaking with many gaming store owner-operators over the years, I have come to the conclusion that the majority of gaming store businesses failed because gaming store owners were gamers first, and business operators second (or third, or fourth, or not at all). In the late 80s, a rather large group of gaming store owners gathered at GenCon to discuss the idea of forming a buying cooperative. Basically, a cooperative would allow bulk order purchase rates, making the per-unit cost of items much lower, thereby increasing per unit profits. The idea died. That simple decision (or rather, lack thereof) was perhaps the order for the coffin. Amazon (and internet sales in general) simply sealed the coffin shut because we gamers were no longer forced to pay full retail price for every gaming object we wanted. We no longer *needed* the gaming store to buy our items. And with the virtual table top that 4e is bringing us, we will no longer need the gaming store for its table space or bulletin board flier space.
CryoSilver 12-06-07, 02:12 PM	In speaking with many gaming store owner-operators over the years, I have come to the conclusion that the majority of gaming store businesses failed because gaming store owners were gamers first, and business operators second (or third, or fourth, or not at all). I agree. This is often the case with many small business owners, in many industries: they started the store because they enjoy the things they're selling, but they really don't know the first thing about business. I like to think of this as "working in your business, but not working on your business." I've worked for two retail stores that went under because the owners cared more about their hobbies/interests as related to their stores than about pulling a profit or managing the store efficiently. I've watched a string of at least 4 stores file through the now empty spot in my downtown because none were managed well (plus parking sucks downtown). One was a gaming store.
Revenant07 12-06-07, 02:15 PM	In speaking with many gaming store owner-operators over the years, I have come to the conclusion that the majority of gaming store businesses failed because gaming store owners were gamers first, and business operators second (or third, or fourth, or not at all). In the late 80s, a rather large group of gaming store owners gathered at GenCon to discuss the idea of forming a buying cooperative. Basically, a cooperative would allow bulk order purchase rates, making the per-unit cost of items much lower, thereby increasing per unit profits. The idea died. That simple decision (or rather, lack thereof) was perhaps the order for the coffin. Amazon (and internet sales in general) simply sealed the coffin shut because we gamers were no longer forced to pay full retail price for every gaming object we wanted. We no longer *needed* the gaming store to buy our items. Right on.
Owlperson2007 12-06-07, 10:24 PM	It doesn't explain the vandalised shop or the lack of activity since 2003 on the premises - even to clear up the mess - and finding it that way in late 2007. I wish I had a photo to show you what I meant. It looked like they were in the middle of refurbishment, put their tools down for the evening some time in mid-03 and haven't been back since, not that the shop shut down to make way for something else. High Wycombe is a ghost town in other ways, but still...Reading's Blackwell shop was very popular - as Louise saw it anyway - and yet it suddenly went. Eclectic survives I think because it is a co-operative and it attracts a lot of children, and I assume it will not collapse because it gives people places to play as well as things to buy, but even still I can tell it is in financially good health but under pressure elsewhere. I can see now what you are saying about Amazon etc but there are other factors involved. I'm not so much paranoid but as I said, someone going out of business would have let the shop to someone else, and that particular shop was going well concurrent with Games Workshop for most of Louise's teenage years. She was surprised to see it in that state given that High Wycombe is a local "hub" of official Magic tournaments, moreso than Reading, and is surprised therefore that the only place to buy cards in town has been cleaned out so long ago.
Owlperson2007 12-06-07, 10:26 PM	It doesn't explain the vandalised shop or the lack of activity since 2003 on the premises - even to clear up the mess - and finding it that way in late 2007. I wish I had a photo to show you what I meant. It looked like they were in the middle of refurbishment, put their tools down for the evening some time in mid-03 and haven't been back since, not that the shop shut down to make way for something else. High Wycombe is a ghost town in other ways, but still...Reading's Blackwell shop was very popular - as Louise saw it anyway - and yet it suddenly went. Eclectic survives I think because it is a co-operative and it attracts a lot of children, and I assume it will not collapse because it gives people places to play as well as things to buy, but even still I can tell it is in financially good health but under pressure elsewhere. I can see now what you are saying about Amazon etc but there are other factors involved. I'm not so much paranoid but as I said, someone going out of business would have let the shop to someone else, and that particular shop was going well concurrent with Games Workshop for most of Louise's teenage years. She was surprised to see it in that state given that High Wycombe is a local "hub" of official Magic tournaments, moreso than Reading, and is surprised therefore that the only place to buy cards in town has been cleaned out so long ago.
CryoSilver 12-08-07, 01:49 PM	It doesn't explain the vandalised shop or the lack of activity since 2003 on the premises - even to clear up the mess - and finding it that way in late 2007. If the store just closed with no one else leasing or renting out the space, who's going to clean it up? There's three empty lots in my downtown. Two are total wrecks, one with various bits of fallen ceiling tile still on the floor. The third has just been leased a couple weeks ago and still looks like hell. No one is ging to clean up a lot if there's no reason to do so. High Wycombe is a ghost town in other ways, but still...Reading's Blackwell shop was very popular - as Louise saw it anyway - and yet it suddenly went. Eclectic survives I think because it is a co-operative and it attracts a lot of children, and I assume it will not collapse because it gives people places to play as well as things to buy, but even still I can tell it is in financially good health but under pressure elsewhere. Stores that do a lot of business are still perfectly capable of collapsing because their profit margin is so slim. I don't pretend to know how the British tax system or economy works, but I know over here, across the pond, rent is really high, there are dozens of hidden laws no one tells you about, and businesses that look successful can still be on the brink of bankruptcy constantly The ironic thing is that as far as I know, Amazon still fails to actually make a profit.
1 ton ghost 12-08-07, 03:19 PM	i've said it before, i'll say it again...video games. another variable to this "problem", but a big one. there is a huge explosion of that industry now, unions even. there's a big merger pending from EA Games and another one too on NPR the other day if i'm not mistaken. basically, it's always the bottom line. my old arguement: when Goldeneye came out, it was good, ppl like Bond, a decent cinema success. grossed over $100mil, giving them a few million in profit. tidy, but profit. then they did the FPS game. R&D was around $10mil, and it sold...God did it sell. made roughly the same as the movie, but the profit was vastly larger w/ much less initial capital. this is why a lot of movie producers are getting into another part of Cali' that isn't Hollywood. Silicon Valley is where the real money is so to speak. video games are easilly marketed and very profitable. i guess it's the new hotness these days. pen&paper RPGs are just competition, pure and simple. with such rampant bankrolls for these videogame companies, they can advertise (does WotC?) the Hell out of even a crap game and it will still sell cuz' some dumb kid thought, "ah, big swords! i like big swords." he gets suckered in as the world's youth is far more suggestible these days, and to make it worse, w/ so much mass media proliferation, they are bombarded constantly w/ consumerist ideas, hearsay and conjecture, fluff filler, glitz and glammer... something cerebral like D&D can't compete as easilly as a plug and play console game where all the bells and whistles are done for you...so is the thinking in most cases.
Owlperson2007 12-08-07, 08:14 PM	If the store just closed with no one else leasing or renting out the space, who's going to clean it up? There's three empty lots in my downtown. Two are total wrecks, one with various bits of fallen ceiling tile still on the floor. The third has just been leased a couple weeks ago and still looks like hell. No one is ging to clean up a lot if there's no reason to do so. How long have they been unoccupied? However the rate at which old shops are colonised elsewhere suggests to me there's still something going on. It's not normal, let's just say, for this to happen. Empty shops usually paint over their windows, take down their extraneous signage (adverts etc) and await the next occupier completely emptied of contents. To me it looks like something similar that has happened to the Wycombe shop has happened to shops in your own downtown area. What were they selling beforehand? Why were they shut? Do you know why or are you assuming this happens everywhere? I've seen differences, trust me, between something that has closed down legitimately and something that has been closed down. Stores that do a lot of business are still perfectly capable of collapsing because their profit margin is so slim. I don't pretend to know how the British tax system or economy works, but I know over here, across the pond, rent is really high, there are dozens of hidden laws no one tells you about, and businesses that look successful can still be on the brink of bankruptcy constantly To my knowledge, yes, you could say that. The margin of error I'm working on here is that I just don't know what is going on. Blackwell's was part, for example, of a national chain whose branches elsewhere were still going last time I looked. They did shut the upstairs part of their shop about two or three weeks before they were colonised by Circle 7 (essentially a version of Poundstretcher selling things like cheap candles and spare batteries) but it was surprising as it was a sci-fi shop and had been doing pretty well. Tax over here is skyrocketing and we are past the stage where the law of diminishing returns has kicked in - that is, we are stifling new business and thus tax generation simply by having high taxes in place - but that should mean that all shops are affected, not just gaming shops. I'm not saying something is definitely happening. I'm aware that a lot of shopping is done over the internet particularly in terms of books and games and I'm not trying to suggest this is official persecution of gaming or anything. I accept the arguments about Amazon and so on (and businesses don't have to make a profit to keep going - Amazon probably turns over a huge amount of money but keeps innovating; in terms of business practices it is cash-flow, not profit, that keeps a retailer going; if the cash runs out the business is stuffed but even if all that comes in goes straight out again, as it probably does in Amazon's case, the business can still operate) but still, the same thing is happening to other niche markets like new age shops which do not have the same competition from online marketplaces as gaming shops might do. The overt pressure in the 1980s has gone (and it was never as big over here anyway), but covert pressure is more dangerous simply because people don't know where it is coming from and why. Having worked in politics I know that things that have a simple and rational explanation on the face of it - competition, economic factors and so on - often are more complicated than they look. I'm not paranoid by any means - the shop that survives in Reading survives because it is in a good position to get the after-school crowd in and it also runs games most evenings - but things that seem simple on first look are never that clear-cut. The military in the original article objected to D&D on grounds that it distracted the soldiers and diverted their attention away from reality into make-believe fantasy. Official disapproval in Britain of something which is a minority pursuit, like gaming or spiritualism - knowing the way the system works intimately - often works on such a basis without real notice by a press geared towards reporting very little in the way of real investigative journalism and more in the way of cynical, pro-Establishment propaganda. I've been able to live two years in Westminster circles with very little of the real truth about me broadcast at all and although I make occasional public appearances on news discussion programmes where I nod sagely and give a pat answer to questions as a party "grandee", my private life is still very much private and my ability to publicly comment virtually nil. Thus anything could be going on - and only the people who know the situation at hand able to tell me anything at all about it. Thus there is little ability for me to understand why it should be gaming shops and New Age shops that are going under now rather than small businesses in general. Do you understand what I mean?
Rogue Elendae 12-11-07, 02:44 AM	I'll have to say that the biggest challenge that I've seen in my neck of the woods (Nor-Cal) is in finding anywhere to actually game. Every local game shop has been forced to close, and not just due to lack of sales, in one case. The only game shop in my actual hometown was forced to close because the shop's layout was simply too large for the owner to keep an eye on things from the register counter, and led to him having much of his merchandise stolen. That's one of the downsides to many average shop layouts that I've seen; they're plenty large enough for there to be a gaming area and a shopfront, but that can often work against the best interests of the shop. In this case, there were plenty of people who liked to casually "borrow" D&D or other gaming books from the shelves right near the game tables in the back half of the shop to add to their game. Then, all they had to do was quietly pack those books in with their own and slip out the back door of the shop, which was down a short corridor and was left unlocked to facilitate deliveries and the like. And there were plenty of small items throughout the store that could likewise be tucked in a pocket or under a shirt, what have you. It was because of this that the shop lost money, moreso in many ways than anything else. Lord knows, it was the only place to buy any CCGs, as it was the only place in town that didn't mark the boosters up by another $5 just because they were in another layer of packaging on top of their foil. And it was the only place in the immediate area for anyone to purchase Raw Deal (a professional wrestling-based CCG centered around the WWF/WWE), so the entirety of the Raw Deal-playing population in the area came there to buy, trade, and play. When that store went down, and with the other two comic and card stores in the immediate area already gone, the only place to play was no less than a 15 minute drive for most of our group, who were without cars (and in some cases, w/o licenses, in spite of being in college):( Needless to say, that made it ridiculous to meet regularly like we did when we either had the old shop or our JC's cafeteria (a bunch of us were leaving the college), so we fell out of the habit. Then, even that shop closed down for reasons we're still not sure of. Now, the only time we can really play is at one of 2 people's houses, and neither one is ideal for it. So yeah, I'll agree that the biggest challenge that seems to face most D&D fans is that there is just plain nowhere to meet other players, or even to play, plain-and-simple. Part of the reason game shops close down might be that their owners are gamers first, entrepreneurs second. Part of it might be that Amazon, Barnes&Noble, and other places make it harder for these shops to sell their expensive D&D books at full price (when Amazon has used books on the cheap, and B&N or Borders have discount cards to knock 10% off the price, who's gonna buy a full price copy?). Or it could just be that too many people don't have any respect for the shop owners who try to offer them a safe environment in which to game, meet other gamers (who are often instrumental in helping new players into the game), etc. All I know is, it's really lousy when the only game shop I can go to is about 15 minutes from my current university, but requires me to either run out to feed the meter, or park in an overpriced parking garage and blow my cash on that rather than the CCGs and such I want to use it for. Never mind that my friends live (at best) over an hour away from this shop, and therefore couldn't be there to play even if I wanted to ask. The downfall of the FLGS is, in my mind, the biggest challenge for D&D players, and it appears to be happening across the board.
Rustmonster 12-11-07, 09:35 AM	i've said it before, i'll say it again...video games. another variable to this "problem", but a big one. there is a huge explosion of that industry now, unions even. there's a big merger pending from EA Games and another one too on NPR the other day if i'm not mistaken. basically, it's always the bottom line. my old arguement: when Goldeneye came out, it was good, ppl like Bond, a decent cinema success. grossed over $100mil, giving them a few million in profit. tidy, but profit. then they did the FPS game. R&D was around $10mil, and it sold...God did it sell. made roughly the same as the movie, but the profit was vastly larger w/ much less initial capital. this is why a lot of movie producers are getting into another part of Cali' that isn't Hollywood. Silicon Valley is where the real money is so to speak. video games are easilly marketed and very profitable. i guess it's the new hotness these days. pen&paper RPGs are just competition, pure and simple. with such rampant bankrolls for these videogame companies, they can advertise (does WotC?) the Hell out of even a crap game and it will still sell cuz' some dumb kid thought, "ah, big swords! i like big swords." he gets suckered in as the world's youth is far more suggestible these days, and to make it worse, w/ so much mass media proliferation, they are bombarded constantly w/ consumerist ideas, hearsay and conjecture, fluff filler, glitz and glammer... something cerebral like D&D can't compete as easilly as a plug and play console game where all the bells and whistles are done for you...so is the thinking in most cases. Yes, let's blame it on those evil videogames killing our hobby! It's not like video gamers can also be P&P RPG gamers! Oh, wait, I am.:rolleyes:
Everdreaming 12-11-07, 04:59 PM	i've said it before, i'll say it again...video games. another variable to this "problem", but a big one. there is a huge explosion of that industry now, unions even. there's a big merger pending from EA Games and another one too on NPR the other day if i'm not mistaken. basically, it's always the bottom line. my old arguement: when Goldeneye came out, it was good, ppl like Bond, a decent cinema success. grossed over $100mil, giving them a few million in profit. tidy, but profit. then they did the FPS game. R&D was around $10mil, and it sold...God did it sell. made roughly the same as the movie, but the profit was vastly larger w/ much less initial capital. this is why a lot of movie producers are getting into another part of Cali' that isn't Hollywood. Silicon Valley is where the real money is so to speak. video games are easilly marketed and very profitable. i guess it's the new hotness these days. pen&paper RPGs are just competition, pure and simple. with such rampant bankrolls for these videogame companies, they can advertise (does WotC?) the Hell out of even a crap game and it will still sell cuz' some dumb kid thought, "ah, big swords! i like big swords." he gets suckered in as the world's youth is far more suggestible these days, and to make it worse, w/ so much mass media proliferation, they are bombarded constantly w/ consumerist ideas, hearsay and conjecture, fluff filler, glitz and glammer... something cerebral like D&D can't compete as easilly as a plug and play console game where all the bells and whistles are done for you...so is the thinking in most cases. I think it depends. For example I used to and still do play video games, as well as DnD. I found DnD precisely because I prefer very free-roaming open ened games, and you cannot truely find that in a video game. So, while some people do reject DnD in favor of video games, the two are not mutually exclusive.
Bruunwald 12-11-07, 08:04 PM	Ironically, it is right up the street from a church whose leader was most vocal about the "demonic" symbols being "sold to children" through what he called "Dragons & Demons" and the evil Pokemon cards he was so on about, that one local hobby store is thriving. Actually, the place in question has been there since the mid-eighties. I've been shopping there since about '88, I think. In 1998, the aforementioned religious dude moved a congregation into, of all places a gymnasium, right up the street. In 1999, he decided to launch his campaign against the store on, of all days, Easter Sunday. Coincidentally, my fiancee and I were there that day. Her mom was in that church, and though she and I were not religious, was making us go to every church event she could, possibly because she did not want us to end up having some sort of pagan wedding? I don't know -- it was all very weird; you'd have to ask my wife what that was all about. Anyway, the guy told some lies that day to the congregation. I tend to be very respectful of other people's beliefs, but I can't stand a dirty, rotten, outright lie, especially told some place where you're supposed to be truthful, like church, so I said it was a lie out loud. The guy lost his place for a second, but thankfully his ego was so big he recovered pretty quickly. Anyway, later, he met with the lady who owns the store, and according to my wife, he found out it was not all about evil and about little kids being lured into "demonic" Poke-worship with the "promise of huge displays of candy." (His words.) He gave up that cause, and soon after it was found out he was cheating on his wife with a parishoner. Now his church is replaced with another one, but the store is still there, and the new church has no problem with it. My mother-in-law gave up thinking everything in the world was evil after that, so now my wife and I can display our gaming stuff without fear of offending her. Meanwhile, I think that most local game stores actually make more money off the minis, the terrains, the paint and other materials. GW is a big seller that obviously is making more money than any of the RP materials in the local stores. Reaper and other minis and card games make way more money than RP books, for sure. The local stores hold tournaments to keep the people coming in. Only one store has closed in my area in the past ten years or so. It didn't close because it was not making enough money, but because the owner had two stores in other cities already and didn't care to renew the lease. Still, I have two stores (not related to the one that closed) thriving within easy driving distance, and a good five or so stores if I want to make a day of it. So... take that as you will, I guess.
1 ton ghost 12-11-07, 11:25 PM	Yes, let's blame it on those evil videogames killing our hobby! It's not like video gamers can also be P&P RPG gamers! Oh, wait, I am.:rolleyes: easy cowboy. you're not helping... you're missing the point. the new way of marketing and the corporate aspect often infringes into RPGs, not the spirit of gaming on a whole. Packman didn't kill off D&D despite such close intervals in their inception. though i've seen a million diehards shelf their PHBs as a monthly fee and a Wow/EQ account was easier. quite a few contemporaries and/or friends went MMO rather than P&P which is odd as it's cost them more financially in most cases as well as a few eye strains/bad backs from 8+hrs in a chair slouched over a keyboard. there's no RP in it either, just min/maxing. right for some, just not for me. i'm an avid gamer of both schools however (not MMO's though). i just knocked out a 1/2 hr. on my g/f's Wii for what it's worth and we'll go from 5-10 every Sunday like clockwork for my Faerun campaign. it's just balance is all. w/ super huge budgets and a complacent and highly suggestible new generation, video games sell themselves and seem far more accessible and appealing. just a bigger fish than most RPG companies is all.
Eldritch_Id 12-12-07, 01:12 AM	...something cerebral like D&D can't compete as easilly as a plug and play console game where all the bells and whistles are done for you...so is the thinking in most cases... Yes, let's blame it on those evil videogames killing our hobby! It's not like video gamers can also be P&P RPG gamers! ...i've seen a million diehards shelf their PHBs as a monthly fee and a Wow/EQ account was easier. quite a few contemporaries and/or friends went MMO rather than P&P... I'm a video game & P&P RPG'er as well. Whether you can participate in both or not isn't the issue. The way I see it, the two industries don't really compete for the exact same crowd. I think that video games appeal more to power-gamers and more 'casual' role-players (that's people who like to get in-character somewhat, but aren't all that concerned about it) because video games are easier. The participants in P&P RPG's are usually going to the effort of buying materials, setting up play sessions (often DM'ing, finding a place to play, other logistics), and playing the decidedly more complex game because they want more than videogames currently offer - namely deeper role-playing and story creation. The difficulty of simply buying the video game and popping it into the console versus the logistics of P&P are obvious. That's not to mention video games seem to be more affordable than even 5 years ago for a better product. On a personal note, I'm dissatisfied with P&P right now precisely because it's so difficult to get a good group together. The immersive experience somehow looses its luster when I'm playing Elder Scrolls IV and a peon in Tamriel looks at my character and tells them "they are now an associate of the Wizards' Guild", when your thinking, "You know I'm the one who saved the empire from the hordes of Oblivion, right, lady? Daedra not pouring out of the gates all over the countryside now? Not ringing a bell?" I'll be the first to admit I'd drop the P&P in a heartbeat if I could get the same experience in an easier package.
Rustmonster 12-12-07, 09:36 AM	easy cowboy. you're not helping... you're missing the point. the new way of marketing and the corporate aspect often infringes into RPGs, not the spirit of gaming on a whole. Packman didn't kill off D&D despite such close intervals in their inception. though i've seen a million diehards shelf their PHBs as a monthly fee and a Wow/EQ account was easier. quite a few contemporaries and/or friends went MMO rather than P&P which is odd as it's cost them more financially in most cases as well as a few eye strains/bad backs from 8+hrs in a chair slouched over a keyboard. there's no RP in it either, just min/maxing. right for some, just not for me. i'm an avid gamer of both schools however (not MMO's though). i just knocked out a 1/2 hr. on my g/f's Wii for what it's worth and we'll go from 5-10 every Sunday like clockwork for my Faerun campaign. it's just balance is all. w/ super huge budgets and a complacent and highly suggestible new generation, video games sell themselves and seem far more accessible and appealing. just a bigger fish than most RPG companies is all. Hmm, I see I have jump over yet another conclusion. Sorry bout that one. Still, I get very defensive about videogames on these forums, because I dislike how it is used, basiclly, as a swear by many posters. It is sad that some gamers will gang up on gamers of other types like that (you are not included in that, it seems). Really, I see no reason why people assume that if you start playign videogames, you either stop playing P&P games or you become a "powergaming" munchkin who can't roleplay. I can tell you, I roleplay in most of the videogames I play, even those (actually, espcially those) that arn't RPGs. If I am playing a game without a real story, I will make one up and play it out in my head. I do this with basiclly ever game I play. I am not a worse roleplayer because of videogames, and I have no intent of dropping P&P for videogames. Fo this christmas, I asked for WoW. Many decry this game as "the RPG killer". I have no intention of playing WoW over P&P games. I will still play both. It won't make me a worse roleplayer. Sorry about the misunderstanding back there. I just had to get this off my chest. I beleive it fits rather well into this thread, because although not a challange facing D&D players (neccesarily), it is a challange facing a group of gamers in some circles.
Ariakus 12-12-07, 09:40 AM	I'm both as well...I play the video games and P&P as well. I love DDO, NWN (all), Elder Scrolls, etc...I wouldn't give them up unless I had to make a choice between them and P&P, in which P&P is easily my favorite. I think if I were to argue that there are challenges facing D&D fans, I don't see one of them being video games, but rather new players having a hard time grasping the rules of the newer generations of games. I've been playing for a long time, through all of the generations of D&D, and the rules got slightly more difficult as time ticked by, and there was a huge jump in rules when 3.0 came out. 4e is now coming out and seems to be geared more towards the technologically savvy, and this may be a good thing as it will take a lot of the complexity out of D&D by having software do the calculations, and I think most D&Ders are computer literate to say the least. I personally don't know anyone who plays D&D that doesn't own a computer and know how to use it to a general degree, most are actually quite exceptional at working with computers.
1 ton ghost 12-12-07, 05:08 PM	Hmm, I see I have jump over yet another conclusion. Sorry bout that one. Still, I get very defensive about videogames on these forums, because I dislike how it is used, basiclly, as a swear by many posters. It is sad that some gamers will gang up on gamers of other types like that (you are not included in that, it seems). Really, I see no reason why people assume that if you start playign videogames, you either stop playing P&P games or you become a "powergaming" munchkin who can't roleplay. I can tell you, I roleplay in most of the videogames I play, even those (actually, espcially those) that arn't RPGs. If I am playing a game without a real story, I will make one up and play it out in my head. I do this with basiclly ever game I play. I am not a worse roleplayer because of videogames, and I have no intent of dropping P&P for videogames. Fo this christmas, I asked for WoW. Many decry this game as "the RPG killer". I have no intention of playing WoW over P&P games. I will still play both. It won't make me a worse roleplayer. Sorry about the misunderstanding back there. I just had to get this off my chest. I beleive it fits rather well into this thread, because although not a challange facing D&D players (neccesarily), it is a challange facing a group of gamers in some circles. no biggie. tensions run hot on the forums, and i'm sure Christmas isn't helping. for the most part, you're 100% to which i agree wholeheartedly. it just breaks my heart is all to see veteran P&P gamers throw in the towel given an unwillingness to try and maintain their campaign(s). sometimes, you just can't find a group, sometimes others argue that P&P can't stay relevant when you can just jog over to GameStop and swipe your plastic. hmm, given the arguements/observations about the vanishing gaming stores, particularly in the UK, and the new proliferation of video game retailers, well, seems directly proportional, but is nonetheless another conspiracy theory, no more no less. i'm sure someone somewhere has graphed it out and has the answers, i'm only hip shooting here.
Sinfire Titan 12-12-07, 11:50 PM	Hmm, I see I have jump over yet another conclusion. Sorry bout that one. Still, I get very defensive about videogames on these forums, because I dislike how it is used, basiclly, as a swear by many posters. It is sad that some gamers will gang up on gamers of other types like that (you are not included in that, it seems). Really, I see no reason why people assume that if you start playign videogames, you either stop playing P&P games or you become a "powergaming" munchkin who can't roleplay. I can tell you, I roleplay in most of the videogames I play, even those (actually, espcially those) that arn't RPGs. If I am playing a game without a real story, I will make one up and play it out in my head. I do this with basiclly ever game I play. I am not a worse roleplayer because of videogames, and I have no intent of dropping P&P for videogames. Fo this christmas, I asked for WoW. Many decry this game as "the RPG killer". I have no intention of playing WoW over P&P games. I will still play both. It won't make me a worse roleplayer. Sorry about the misunderstanding back there. I just had to get this off my chest. I beleive it fits rather well into this thread, because although not a challange facing D&D players (neccesarily), it is a challange facing a group of gamers in some circles. WoW isn't an RPG killer, it's a friend thief. I've lost 6 good men to that game. Too bad Oblivion and Halo 3 are just as sticky-fingered.
celestialkin 12-13-07, 12:54 AM	I think it depends. For example I used to and still do play video games, as well as DnD. I found DnD precisely because I prefer very free-roaming open ened games, and you cannot truely find that in a video game. So, while some people do reject DnD in favor of video games, the two are not mutually exclusive. Probably not related, but I have found the opposite. I love free-roaming open ended games which allow you to "experience" the world as you like. However, I have found many more video games which give me that options. Due to the endless selection of premade modules it is extremely rare to find a DM willing to put a whole world together himself. I am actually attempting to become a DM just for this reason. *Back on topic* Based on what I read above, I get the feeling the virtual tabletop WotC is setting up might end up killing off our gaming industry completely. Is anyone else worried about this? Sure we can now get most of our gaming stuff online, but if all the gaming stores go under there will be no places for gamers to gather and meet, or for new people to be introduced to the system. Also, if pen&paper games become exclusively played online, why would new people (or experienced gamers for that matter) bother buying all these books and learning this extremely complicated system just to play it online? They could get the exact same fantasy-like experience with an MMO like World of Warcraft, and the computers would do all the complicated calculations for them. They would also not need to buy $100s of dollars worth of books, and they would not need to learn complicated gaming systems, since they would get the exact same thing minus the work for $20 and another occasion $30 for an expansion (which would be the equivalent of a whole D&D setting worth of books). The local chain of comic/gaming stores I go to here in Central Florida is supposedly the largest in the South Eastern US, but only has a total of 5 stores or so. Considering there is either a Gamestop or EB Games (or both) on every major street and shopping district here, we seem to just be holding on by a thread. Heck, the local chain I mentioned recently had to close down two of it's stores to merge them, since both stores were doing poorly. They also closed down another of their stores late last year I believe. Oh well, if everything goes downhill at least there are other hobby options nowadays. D&D served it purpose, and it basically inspired things like video games RPGs & MMOs. Maybe it is just evolution. Who knows, if we had the technology we do today back in the 70s maybe Gygax would have initially made D&D a computer game or MMO instead?
Revenant07 12-13-07, 02:05 AM	o yeah, I'll agree that the biggest challenge that seems to face most D&D fans is that there is just plain nowhere to meet other players, or even to play, plain-and-simple. Right on.
1 ton ghost 12-13-07, 12:05 PM	concerning on-line D&D, MMO's, and other "new ways of gaming": -not having to buy books and so forth as one could get "the exact same thing" on-line is wildly inaccurate. apples and oranges, they just happen to be selling them under the same "blue light special". that is, you cannot RP in MMOs at all. you're limited by miles and miles of code no matter how much programming they add to it. some can kick ass truly, but there is no comparison to true RPGs (P&P). it's never completely open-ended, far from it. -your campaign is only as good as your DM and players. like their digital counterparts, garbage in, garbage out. you just don't need a patch or update when a gentle "aside" or constructive critique will do. -practicality; not everyone has a connection. even if you have net access, you don't always have it w/ you, storm can knock it out, someone needs it for school/work, etc. RPG books are for gaming, creative inspiration, or paper weights. -cost; technically, you only need 3 core books (so they say). monthly subscriptions, a cable/DSL line, new updates, downloads from WotC's site(s), etc., add up. it's like buying a car. they get ya' w/ the add-ons. eventually, it's "keeping up w/ the jones's" and updating software just so you can use the barebones, be free of hacks, and God knows what else. books do not contract viruses, are not contingent on electricity, and help employ a ton of ppl that are like us...work for a living, have families, etc. -competition; if everything goes digital, what's gonna' happen to all those minis factories? artists? nothing like scraping your entire portfolio as it's Photoshop/Illustrator or nothing. not all designers/artists are computer savvy and forcing them to stay relevant (for lack of a better word) can be expensive, and dare i say, unethical at some points. think scabs & $...
Breetai 12-13-07, 01:18 PM	concerning on-line D&D, MMO's, and other "new ways of gaming": -not having to buy books and so forth as one could get "the exact same thing" on-line is wildly inaccurate. apples and oranges, they just happen to be selling them under the same "blue light special". that is, you cannot RP in MMOs at all. This goes to the heart of the problem of what I see as the future of the game. I've seen RP side become more and more discouraging in D&D with the feel of the splat books as flavorless power-gaming making it really no different than the mind numbing MMO's. And then there's this stuff about 4th edition and having clearly defined roles. Well if that isn't shoe horn style MMO I don't know what is. To me PnP is about drawing players into it like a good book, they'll fall right into their role. The only stuff I'm seeing in the future of D&D being officially proposed discourages that.
CryoSilver 12-13-07, 02:58 PM	I have no problem min maxing with half a dozen books and still RPing the hell out of my character. Just because I play Orgar the Smasher with Leap Attack and Shock Trooper does not make me a worse RPer than the guy playing Jim, the Blind Basket Weaver with Skill Focus: Basketweaving I like new books, because they give me new options, and to me, being a very math oriented kind of guy, new ways to crunch numbers are fun. I also love RPing, and it's really no different in terms of how I RP when I have a core-only fighter than when I have a warblade. I played an MMO for a long time before money got really tight, and it got cut. I played City of Villains, mostly because a good friend of mine was a clan leader. It was fun, but not even close to the same as PnP D&D. But both have their perks. One big advantage of an MMO is you can sit down and play for an hour whenever you get the chance, and don't have to schedule around four other people every week. I'm a busy guy; I'll have two jobs and be going to school full time come the new yea. I might not have time for a 4 hour session of D&D every week, and an MMO might be just what I need. Or not.