Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Athos 03-10-06, 08:48 AM	So in the game I've been playing lately there has been a lot of character death... A lot (in the last 5 sessions I've gone threw 3 characters). We had a bit of a discussion with it with our DM and came to only a half conclusion about better party builds and better choices making. So I pose this question to you, how much character death is in you campaigns? How often do you loose a PC? How often should you loose a PC? P.S. I realize this could fit in "what a DM/Player to do" but I'd think it would span both sides of the table, also were currently playing return to the temple of elemental evil, if that matters.
Illion the Red 03-10-06, 09:21 AM	Adventuring is dangerous business. Death is a fact of life in D&D - especially at lower levels. When all it takes is one confirmed critical on an Orc's Falchion to drop most first level characters (and many 2nd and even some 3rd), death should be expected. Are there steps you can take to prevent it? Sure. Having a high AC, high hit points, and not letting the monsters even get a swing at you are great ways to prevent your own death. But, in the end, there is no reward without risk. If the risk is not real, then the challenge is lessened, or perhaps, nonexistant.
DaMullet 03-10-06, 09:26 AM	In the campaign I DM, there hasn't been a death yet. I'm trying my best, but the players are too good. In the campaign my friend DMs, an Ogre got a crit against the party druid while using Power Attack. Then the DM rolled high. 30 damage wwith only 20 HP isn't pretty.
Athos 03-10-06, 09:47 AM	Adventuring is dangerous business. Death is a fact of life in D&D - especially at lower levels. When all it takes is one confirmed critical on an Orc's Falchion to drop most first level characters (and many 2nd and even some 3rd), death should be expected. Are there steps you can take to prevent it? Sure. Having a high AC, high hit points, and not letting the monsters even get a swing at you are great ways to prevent your own death. But, in the end, there is no reward without risk. If the risk is not real, then the challenge is lessened, or perhaps, nonexistant. All to true and I appologize if I seemed to be one unnacepting of death, trust me I have come to accept this fact, and I don't fear death at all, I'n fact at times I enjoy it, getting a chance to create a new charichter. But when is there too much death is the question at this point, in the campain of which I speak I haven't even have time to give a charichter a back story of a personality, is death too often then?
Huniko 03-10-06, 09:51 AM	I've done my share of DMing myself, and I would say 3 deaths in 5 sessions seems a little excessive, but of course it depends on many factors as well. If you charge into a band of orcs at level 1, you prolly deserve it. Luck is a decent factor at lower levels as well, but if you're dying that much, you're probably either making choices that aren't the best choices for your characters life, the DM is setting you up with CRs too high. or you just have horrible, horrible luck.
kerveroc 03-10-06, 09:54 AM	Well, it depends what kind of scenario you are running, for example I made a campaign high-powered, prophesies and fate... so I can't have them die, because they are the key to the final adventure. Despite that, what I roll is what they take, I won't roll 20hps and say you suffer only 5hps. What is rolled, is rolled... what I do to keep them alive? Once a character died, I applied a Deathless template over him and he would fall and die when the final battle was over (4-5 adventures later), that brought interesting role playing from his part, as he would start behaving differently and more distant from his pregnant mate. Another time a character died, and because it is high powered I had a chance to introduce a mutated gene-affecting virus (else known as X-gene) with which he shrugged all damage as subdual (but did not heal any faster). So he got regeneration 0 except from acid/fire. In my latest campaign, they are once again destined for a specific future, so when they died, they true nature was revealed, Dragon-King and Illumian-Chosen, so their true nature is unleashed (of course they have rather lots of extra powers, but they never knew what I had in store for them). Of course I don't suggest this for very low level characters or for pretty down-to-earth campaigns. If you want to introduce a big fight and you are not sure they can handle it, they can do it in the Astral plane, where death means return to reality! :)
Novacat 03-10-06, 10:09 AM	In a campaign that I was in until it just recently ended... The party was in the Lich Queen's palace on the Astral Plane, and had just opened the door to what turned out to be the throne room (oops). Surprise round: Two huge-sized red dragons breath on us, catching us all in the blast. No problem, right? We all have huge resistances, if not immunities, to fire, since we knew that we'd be fighting red dragons (not to mention the fact that the palace was partially fused with the elemental plane of fire. Turns out, there's a spell that changes your breath weapon's energy type. We all got drenched in acid. 156 points of damage between the two breaths, and I only had 110 HP, and failed both saves (sorcerer). Wouldn't have been too bad, except that I was carrying a Staff of Power... with 45 charges remaining. It failed its save vs the damage and promptly released a Retributive Strike, dealing 360 damage to the entire party. All except our lizardman barbarian and our elan psion (elans really are broken at high levels) died in the surprise round! It was over at that point, since even if they managed to win (which they couldn't, since they died in the first actual round of combat), I was the one with Plane Shift. This was the end to a very long and brutal game. Death happens.
erc1971 03-10-06, 10:15 AM	Are you talking a total of 3 deaths in 5 sessions, or everyone had to make 3 new characters within that 5 sessions span? The 1st would cause me to talk to the DM about it, the 2nd would cause me to walk away from the game. Though, IMO both are extremely high fatality rates. D&D is about the heroes. How good of a movie would LotR been if the entire fellowship died in Moria except Frodo? Then Galadriel sent 8 elves to assist him on his mission. Then, they all die and Faramir gives him 8 Gondor soldiers to trek to Mordor with him. But, then Frodo dies on the way to Mordor, and Gollum takes the ring the rest of the way. I know I would not have watched that movie! Death needs to be rare for many reasons. First off, the players are not going to like having thier beloved character ganked. If it happens rarely, that is OK, it gives death a meaning, and a really intense story can be developed from it. When death happens alot, players will stop caring about thier characters. "Oh this is Eric the Generic Cleric, and um, he worships a god of some type, not sure which." Games start to become silly when no one cares about thier characters, they have no history, no personality, etc. Now, if a player has his character do something completely and utterly stupid "I know I am only level 2, but I will attack the Balor anyways!", then I let them die of course. But when I DM, I like to keep character death at a minimum, aiming for 1 or 2 permanent deaths in a campaign - just enough to keep the players wary that it is possible, but not enough to keep bringing in new characters and mess up the story.
The_Unfan 03-10-06, 10:15 AM	In a campaign that I was in until it just recently ended... Surprise round: Two huge-sized red dragons breath on us, catching us all in the blast. No problem, right? We all have huge resistances, if not immunities, to fire, since we knew that we'd be fighting red dragons (not to mention the fact that the palace was partially fused with the elemental plane of fire. Turns out, there's a spell that changes your breath weapon's energy type. We all got drenched in acid. 156 points of damage between the two breaths, and I only had 110 HP, and failed both saves (sorcerer). Wouldn't have been too bad, except that I was carrying a Staff of Power... with 45 charges remaining. It failed its save vs the damage and promptly released a Retributive Strike, dealing 360 damage to the entire party. All except our lizardman barbarian and our elan psion (elans really are broken at high levels) died in the surprise round! It was over at that point, since even if they managed to win (which they couldn't, since they died in the first actual round of combat), I was the one with Plane Shift. Owned.
The_Unfan 03-10-06, 10:20 AM	Now, if a player has his character do something completely and utterly stupid "I know I am only level 2, but I will attack the Balor anyways!", then I let them die of course. But when I DM, I like to keep character death at a minimum, aiming for 1 or 2 permanent deaths in a campaign - just enough to keep the players wary that it is possible, but not enough to keep bringing in new characters and mess up the story. I agree sorta, though even with trying to be dodgy on the death thing if a character dies than he's dead. If someone gets slobber knocked via stupidly horrid dice rolls I'd let the death slide.
Sh0ck-Wave 03-10-06, 10:27 AM	I agree with Huniko, 3 deaths in 5 sessions for the same player is excessive. If it was for different players then it might be acceptable, but not for the same player unless you were performing some direly ridiculous moves or the DM just didn't like the munchies you brought those days. You can put some deaths down to bad rolling, but again 3 in 5 sessions for 1 player is still too many. I'd be wondering if the DM is creating adventures without really taking into account the players abilities. My players can put a lot of thought into their characters, and I like to challange them with games that allow them to use their characters to their best potential. Like the old rule 'there's no point putting dropping the party into a trap filled dungeon if there's not a dedicated rogue'. If you think your character simply didn't have a chance in the adventure then maybe talk to the DM and find out (whether through subterfuge, bribery, or just being nice .. DM's like that from players) the sort of adventures your characters are going to be put through. I put my PC's through their paces quite a bit, but we actually don't have that many deaths. Don't get me wrong, heck I try to kill them a lot. Considering the amount of combat we have and the amount of healing we go through its pretty amazing sometimes. But these guys play out their battle tactics very well on the map, and work very well as a team (well most of them do anyway). Seeing that as a DM can be quite rewarding .. although you always wear the face of 'damnit that guy took ages to roll up !!' :) Maybe your DM just has a different focus.
Illion the Red 03-10-06, 10:42 AM	With the plethora of ressurection magic available in D&D, death just ain't what it used to be. It's not the end, and at high levels, it's rarely more than a temporary inconvenience. Addressing this specific case with the same Player losing a Character 3 times over 5 sessions: If no other PCs died, the problem may not be on the DM side of the screen. In my current campaign, I've had one PC die twice already. In both cases he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The first time he was standing behind the Rogue while the Rogue was disarming a trap...which went off - the Rogue made his save, the Sorcerer didn't. The next time, he was just unlucky and following the fighter too closely into the dragon turtle's lair. He got toasted in the surprise round - breath weapon. The PC is not a strong build (Sorcerer/Wilder), but better tactical placement would have saved his bacon each time. Sometimes it's the DM's "fault." Sometimes it's the Player's "fault." Most of the time, though, it's just dumb luck.
Athos 03-10-06, 11:21 AM	With the plethora of ressurection magic available in D&D, death just ain't what it used to be. It's not the end, and at high levels, it's rarely more than a temporary inconvenience. Addressing this specific case with the same Player losing a Character 3 times over 5 sessions: If no other PCs died, the problem may not be on the DM side of the screen. In my current campaign, I've had one PC die twice already. In both cases he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The first time he was standing behind the Rogue while the Rogue was disarming a trap...which went off - the Rogue made his save, the Sorcerer didn't. The next time, he was just unlucky and following the fighter too closely into the dragon turtle's lair. He got toasted in the surprise round - breath weapon. The PC is not a strong build (Sorcerer/Wilder), but better tactical placement would have saved his bacon each time. Sometimes it's the DM's "fault." Sometimes it's the Player's "fault." Most of the time, though, it's just dumb luck. Well on of them was a half-dragon barbarian that rollled 3 on 3/4 of his die rolls, but that was just one of them. Perhaps it might be that I play martial charichters that go into melee, but this should not spell death if you use combat expertise, have a decent XP and play tactically including flaking, high ground and other things. on of the problems might be is that when we play we have two melee fighters go into the fray, one spell caster, a ranged person, and on fake melee person that hates death and is constatly avoiding even being in the enemys threated squares (which makes him espcially useless against large and larger creatures, of which we have been facing alot). I talk to my DM about it and he said what am I to do when the guys surrounded by melee fighters but to attack the melee fighters. anyone have any tips I could give him at getting at those farther targets when theres powerful melee around?
StormKnight 03-10-06, 11:24 AM	Depends very much on what your group wants. For some groups, its "expend PCs as needed to encourage a highly tactical risk based game". For other groups its "a PC never dies except when dramatically appropriate and acceptable to the player to encourage deep continuing backstories and in depth emotional roleplaying" For most its somewhere in between. No style is right or wrong...though having a group with players in both extremes can be tricky to balance.
Syd_Galion 03-10-06, 11:46 AM	All death in the game I'm playing right now has involved rolls of nat 1, the barb died twice due to massive damage, I was destroyed and my cohort was destroyed and fingered of death. All fort saves came up nat 1, it sucks but hey the same has happened to our enemies so it balances out.
Sh0ck-Wave 03-10-06, 12:02 PM	Bad rolling is always a pain. A guy in one of my more recent games rolled 1 on a D20 nine times in a night, with a hat trick of 1's on three subsequent attacks. There's not much a DM can do about that .. 2 fighters, 1 spell caster (arcane or divine ?), a ranged attack character and a non-combative character. First thoughts are: Do you have a cleric ? You'd probably want the non-combat character to become a cleric, that way he can avoid combat and just focus on keeping characters alive. My highest level party had a cleric of Pelor who was simply played as a 'keep the party alive' character. Our Paladin was the front line man, and he dished out a phenominal amount of damage due to some awesome rolling (his tally in our book of kills is frightning). However he also RECEIVED a phenominal amount of damage, but the guy playing the cleric always positioned him close to the paladin so when he went down he was normally back up again during the same round. Let me tell you its very frustrating as a DM when you FINALLY get the tough guy out of the way, only to have him stand up again with full hits in the same damn round. Getting your players surrounded on the battlefield is always a problem, but maybe you need to get your players to take out the enemy one at a time. One of our parties biggest problem early on was that they'd wittle away at multiple enemies, the enemy would all be on screw all hits but they'd still be on the map. The problem with DnD, unlike say ShadowRun or RoleMaster, is that a guy with 1 hit point is still as dangerous as a guy with maximum hit points. Maybe your fighters need to work with the archer to take out enemy one at a time. Feats like Cleave and Combat Expertise are very useful in this situation as your fighters can gain extra attacks on the next foe before their next round. Just remember which guy on the battlefield you hit. Another tactic is using the battlefield to your advantage. Stand next to a wall or a tree or a column .. anything that stops the enemy from surrounding you. If the DM is putting in lots of melee guys chances are he's not going to be dropping area effect spells on you as well because then he'd be hitting his own guys (and orks and gnolls generally have pretty dire reflex saves). However my way of dealing with characters who get surrounded is to get them to cast spells like Ring of Blades (Complete Divine, Cleric level 3) or FireBurst (Complete Arcane, Wiz/Sor level 2). These spells can deal a lot of damage to anyone standing next to you, and usually mean your character gets left alone from melee attackers. Not even orcs are dumb enough to run into a Ring of Blades dealing 1D6+caster level damage with no save every round. That said though, I changed ring of blades from 1 min/lvl to 1 rnd/lvl because at its normal duration its a bit too powerful.
SureFoot 03-10-06, 01:38 PM	Wouldn't have been too bad, except that I was carrying a Staff of Power... with 45 charges remaining. It failed its save vs the damage and promptly released a Retributive Strike, dealing 360 damage to the entire party. I hope that retributive strike wasn't what actually killed the rest of the party, because that is NOT how Ret Strike works. Ret Strike is ONLY when the wielder consciously chooses to use it. The staff failing the save does NOT repeat NOT trigger the Ret Strike. In any case, in the campaign I'm in, death usually happens because of -players doing something stupid and/or -bad luck and that's about it. More often than not, it has to be both, unless whta the player(s) did was very very stupid. Like a sorcerer provoking an AoO due to movement when he could have 5' stepped, or a bard running into a magically darkened room known to have hostiles in it--stuff like that. We had one character die twice in two game days. But he bounced back and is pretty close to levels with the rest of us.
Illion the Red 03-10-06, 01:47 PM	First thoughts are: Do you have a cleric ? You'd probably want the non-combat character to become a cleric, that way he can avoid combat and just focus on keeping characters alive. My highest level party had a cleric of Pelor who was simply played as a 'keep the party alive' character. Our Paladin was the front line man, and he dished out a phenominal amount of damage due to some awesome rolling (his tally in our book of kills is frightning). However he also RECEIVED a phenominal amount of damage, but the guy playing the cleric always positioned him close to the paladin so when he went down he was normally back up again during the same round. Let me tell you its very frustrating as a DM when you FINALLY get the tough guy out of the way, only to have him stand up again with full hits in the same damn round. Even better - make the Character into a Healer (MH). With a feat or two from the Complete Divine, they'll keep everyone healed up without a worry.
Athos 03-10-06, 02:51 PM	the non-combat charichter was a cowardly Monk, that was one of the problems, and the spell caster was a warmage, like I said above poor party build, no one wan'ts to be the cleric cause it(at least how most my group looks at it) the b!tch class, I played one for a fedw month and was sick of it. One thing you also have to understand is that we have been playing for 3 years, but still discovering things and rules about the game, only been using grids and now minatures for about 4 months. Also we haven't been facing alot of hoards, mostly just large or larger creatures, and when you only healer is a bard with very little hp, well the chances of him coming in to the threated space to use cure light wounds... not to great.
Darkuwa 03-10-06, 03:02 PM	I find it very hard to kill only one character in a battle. Usually it will either be the Party wins or there's a TPK never anything in between. Which makes me mad cause I hate those gorram gnomes so much.
nightwing 03-10-06, 03:34 PM	IMO, character death really only comes from a) bad luck b) stupid mistakes c) fighting BBEGs My players are quite experienced, and usually avoid the stupid mistakes. The most recent death came when the fighter of the group taste-tested a potion that he got off the BBEGs table, which turned out to be poison. He failed his saves and... (That fits under category a/c.) But the PCs' base of operations at the time was at the church of a friendly NPC cleric, so he came out ok in the end. Another near miss happened when the same fighter decided to attack a "flock" of sphinxes...very nearly got the whole party slaughtered. (That fits category b pretty well.) All that said, I don't fudge rolls for my players, just like the players don't fudge rolls for me. Coming up with appropriate challenges for the party is key. It is an artform, trying to keep your players terrified of death without actually slaying them repeatedly. But when done well, it's really fun to see how creative the strategy and roll playing gets when players are working hard and really using their resources. That's really what makes DMing any fun at all.
Cashban 03-10-06, 03:36 PM	While yes, player death can happen it should not be a regular event unless your players are a bunch of idiots (no offense) With that much death I would guess your DM has seriously over estimated your abilitys and levels. It's not challenge to kill off a group of characters. When I have Dm'd (and that has been a long long time.) I have fudged dice rolls to save players, or if god help us a death happens because I through something that was just too hard or the players had some really bad luck rolling. I usually make it possible for those characters to be reserected. The DM job is not to see how many players he can cut through like a scyth through wheat. The goal is to provide a reasonable challenge with a reasonable risk to provide and I stress this "enjoyment" for the group. Maybe you should have him re-evaluate what his goal is.
Sh0ck-Wave 03-10-06, 07:27 PM	Athos, just on your comment about the cleric class .. I agree that the cleric class can seem pretty average, it can feel like its a bit 'too' required in a party and can turn players away from it (ie. just another healer). But you can have some fun with the class itself, and make up a non-average style of cleric. My current Cleric is angled to be a warrior of Heironious, Pick the War domain as then you get Weapon focus in Longsword. Only pick combat orientated spells, or spells that enhance the parties combat prowess, and make sure you let the party know that your NOT there to heal anyone. Falling in combat is the greatest honour, which gets you out of having to run to everyone's aid (like people are normally expecting from a cleric). It ends up being more of a magic-warrior, and coupling it with feats like Block Arrow and Shield Wall (from heroes of battle) means your normally a front line fighter. You got the hits, the AC, and the spell enhancements to really deal some woe in combat. The party might be anoyed at you NOT being a healer, but when you start casting spells like Elation they're normally pretty happy to have you around.
DoomSquirrel718 03-14-06, 07:17 AM	Characters don't seem to die so terribly often in the games I hear about. I heard a story from my friend, he rolled 21 ones on a d20 in a row then a three then 4 more ones. needless to say he has nearly the worst luck in the world, he had a dreadful night of gaming that night but his character survived.