Character Efective Level VS Challenge Rating [Archive] - Wizards Community

Character Efective Level VS Challenge Rating [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Edark
12-23-07, 10:59 AM I'm preparing a special game session where two groups of 14th lvl player characters have to compete in an huge dungeon to get an ancient item. It should take two days (game time) for them.

The problem is that one of them wants to be a vampire elf sorcerer, and I don't know how many levels he has to have to be so powerfull as the other players.

Which criteria do I aply?

-If I consider CEL 14, he needs 6 levels of sorcerer, becose "level adjustment" in vampire template is +8.

-But if I use the Challenge Rating adjustment of the vampire template (+2) he can be a sorcerer 12th level!!!

The difference of power is considerable. Please help me! What can I do to balance this kind of game?
Anyr
12-23-07, 11:10 AM He'd be a 6th level Sorcerer. Level Adjustment is there to show how many levels behind a PC of that race needs to be to be (theoretically) balanced against a member of a normal race. Challenge Rating is there to show how dangerous a creature is when encountered as an enemy. Level Adjustment doesn't matter when building an enemy and CR doesn't matter when building a PC.

As an aside, it might be best to forbid races with ridiculous LA such as the Vampire, as it's likely to cause problems later down the road. Perhaps the Half Vampire template from Libris Mortis might be more suitable?
Edark
12-23-07, 11:32 AM He'd be a 6th level Sorcerer. Level Adjustment is there to show how many levels behind a PC of that race needs to be to be (theoretically) balanced against a member of a normal race. Challenge Rating is there to show how dangerous a creature is when encountered as an enemy. Level Adjustment doesn't matter when building an enemy and CR doesn't matter when building a PC.

Yes, that's true. The problem is that the game will be players VS players (and players VS monsters). The vampire will be a PC and also will be encountered as enemy.

For now, I think the best solution its half way between both criteria and let player take 9 levels instead of 6.
Prime32
12-23-07, 11:57 AM Think about it this way - there are two monsters, one of which can use wish once per minute, and one which can use it once per year. If those monsters fight the PCs, they get equal utility out of their abilities and should have the same CR.

Now imagine giving that ability to a PC. Every member of the party would have huge stats, powerful magic items, and dominated fodder. If you gave those to a monster, it's CR would jump considerably. That's why ECL is much higher than CR.

CR is for a creature that lives only for a single encounter, LA is for PCs, who get to use their abilities over a long period of time.
StevenO
12-23-07, 07:02 PM If your player want to be a vampire they should suck it up and accept that +8 LA. If there is going to be player vs. player it is their own fault for choosing a type with such a big LA.

Granted Vampires can make good recurring opponents players may well get XP for "defeating" them multiple times. As a monster several of the Vampire's abilities help it come back again but as a PC those same abilities become abusive. A run down on why the Vampire merits such a big LA even if it has a smaller CR adjustment:

Ability Scores/Natural Armor/Natural Attack: The vampire has a net +18 over its ability scores not counting CON and I can't honestly say I've ever seen anyone purposefully build a character by choice that will go into undeath with a CON greater than 10. Adding +6 Natural AC is also huge and just having a pair of natural attacks is also useful. I'd say these and the undead type alone are worth at least a +3 LA and possibly more.

Blood/Energy Drain: These are more useful to a PC type as there are likely to be more chances to use them. A monster uses these against the party and is done but as PC the ability can be used in the next encounter and the following and...

Dominate: For an NPC this may be an excuse to throw another creature at the party (which should be worth full XP) as well as an attack form. For the PC this is an easy way to expand the party pre-fight who make the fight easier but don't cost XP because they'll be dead.

Alternate Form: Mostly useless when encountering PCs but as a PC the utility provided by the forms is great.

Fast Healing/Gaseous Form: As an NPC fast healing can still be overcome but with a PC you'll start every encounter at maximum hp without any additional resources. Gaseous Form is another highly useful form that is more likely to be exploited by a PC.

Spider Climb: Somewhat useful for the NPC to surprise a party but the mobility aspects aren't so overpowering. A PC may get more use out of the improved mobility if they didn't already have the means to overcome environmental challenges.

Skill Bonus: An NPC is likely to use these once against a party but a PC may be using these over multiple encounters.

Bonus Feats: Up to five bonus feats. As always an NPC will usually get one encounter to benefit from them while a PC uses them again and again.

I should also note that your PC Vampire will have more treasure than a comprable NPC should.

If you have 14th level characters your Elven Vampire Sorcerer should only have six class levels. I see undead elf so I'd assume CON is the dump stat which makes losing it probably equivalent to another +4 ability increase without counting the step up in HD size. Sure, he may be frail if thrown up against a group of "peers" but I imagine if you set him against a typical village he would fair just as well or even better than a basic 14th level character.
Edark
12-23-07, 07:50 PM This information is being very useful to me. Thanks for your colaboration, overall to Steveno for his analysis.

I conclude that in this case I have to use a trained eye to balance.
For the game I got in mid, I'll let him a 8-9 lvl sorcerer, becose there will be direct encounters between players and also dungeon crawl. I can't let lvl 6 becose it is not gonna be a standar campaing, but can't be 12 becose it isn´t a monster encounter.

Thanks again for your ideas.
Mojo_Rat
12-23-07, 11:05 PM If you want to let the character be a vampire type but have it a little more balanced. Might I recomend Vampire spawn instead?. Its weaker than Vampire but you get 4hd out of it and works out to be the same +la as vampire (4hd +4la) so he would be 6 level sorcerer 4 levels of unded hd. If the character took
Practiced spellcaster he would be casting as level 10 but admitedly only up to level 3 spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edark 12-23-07, 10:59 AM	I'm preparing a special game session where two groups of 14th lvl player characters have to compete in an huge dungeon to get an ancient item. It should take two days (game time) for them. The problem is that one of them wants to be a vampire elf sorcerer, and I don't know how many levels he has to have to be so powerfull as the other players. Which criteria do I aply? -If I consider CEL 14, he needs 6 levels of sorcerer, becose "level adjustment" in vampire template is +8. -But if I use the Challenge Rating adjustment of the vampire template (+2) he can be a sorcerer 12th level!!! The difference of power is considerable. Please help me! What can I do to balance this kind of game?
Anyr 12-23-07, 11:10 AM	He'd be a 6th level Sorcerer. Level Adjustment is there to show how many levels behind a PC of that race needs to be to be (theoretically) balanced against a member of a normal race. Challenge Rating is there to show how dangerous a creature is when encountered as an enemy. Level Adjustment doesn't matter when building an enemy and CR doesn't matter when building a PC. As an aside, it might be best to forbid races with ridiculous LA such as the Vampire, as it's likely to cause problems later down the road. Perhaps the Half Vampire template from Libris Mortis might be more suitable?
Edark 12-23-07, 11:32 AM	He'd be a 6th level Sorcerer. Level Adjustment is there to show how many levels behind a PC of that race needs to be to be (theoretically) balanced against a member of a normal race. Challenge Rating is there to show how dangerous a creature is when encountered as an enemy. Level Adjustment doesn't matter when building an enemy and CR doesn't matter when building a PC. Yes, that's true. The problem is that the game will be players VS players (and players VS monsters). The vampire will be a PC and also will be encountered as enemy. For now, I think the best solution its half way between both criteria and let player take 9 levels instead of 6.
Prime32 12-23-07, 11:57 AM	Think about it this way - there are two monsters, one of which can use wish once per minute, and one which can use it once per year. If those monsters fight the PCs, they get equal utility out of their abilities and should have the same CR. Now imagine giving that ability to a PC. Every member of the party would have huge stats, powerful magic items, and dominated fodder. If you gave those to a monster, it's CR would jump considerably. That's why ECL is much higher than CR. CR is for a creature that lives only for a single encounter, LA is for PCs, who get to use their abilities over a long period of time.
StevenO 12-23-07, 07:02 PM	If your player want to be a vampire they should suck it up and accept that +8 LA. If there is going to be player vs. player it is their own fault for choosing a type with such a big LA. Granted Vampires can make good recurring opponents players may well get XP for "defeating" them multiple times. As a monster several of the Vampire's abilities help it come back again but as a PC those same abilities become abusive. A run down on why the Vampire merits such a big LA even if it has a smaller CR adjustment: Ability Scores/Natural Armor/Natural Attack: The vampire has a net +18 over its ability scores not counting CON and I can't honestly say I've ever seen anyone purposefully build a character by choice that will go into undeath with a CON greater than 10. Adding +6 Natural AC is also huge and just having a pair of natural attacks is also useful. I'd say these and the undead type alone are worth at least a +3 LA and possibly more. Blood/Energy Drain: These are more useful to a PC type as there are likely to be more chances to use them. A monster uses these against the party and is done but as PC the ability can be used in the next encounter and the following and... Dominate: For an NPC this may be an excuse to throw another creature at the party (which should be worth full XP) as well as an attack form. For the PC this is an easy way to expand the party pre-fight who make the fight easier but don't cost XP because they'll be dead. Alternate Form: Mostly useless when encountering PCs but as a PC the utility provided by the forms is great. Fast Healing/Gaseous Form: As an NPC fast healing can still be overcome but with a PC you'll start every encounter at maximum hp without any additional resources. Gaseous Form is another highly useful form that is more likely to be exploited by a PC. Spider Climb: Somewhat useful for the NPC to surprise a party but the mobility aspects aren't so overpowering. A PC may get more use out of the improved mobility if they didn't already have the means to overcome environmental challenges. Skill Bonus: An NPC is likely to use these once against a party but a PC may be using these over multiple encounters. Bonus Feats: Up to five bonus feats. As always an NPC will usually get one encounter to benefit from them while a PC uses them again and again. I should also note that your PC Vampire will have more treasure than a comprable NPC should. If you have 14th level characters your Elven Vampire Sorcerer should only have six class levels. I see undead elf so I'd assume CON is the dump stat which makes losing it probably equivalent to another +4 ability increase without counting the step up in HD size. Sure, he may be frail if thrown up against a group of "peers" but I imagine if you set him against a typical village he would fair just as well or even better than a basic 14th level character.
Edark 12-23-07, 07:50 PM	This information is being very useful to me. Thanks for your colaboration, overall to Steveno for his analysis. I conclude that in this case I have to use a trained eye to balance. For the game I got in mid, I'll let him a 8-9 lvl sorcerer, becose there will be direct encounters between players and also dungeon crawl. I can't let lvl 6 becose it is not gonna be a standar campaing, but can't be 12 becose it isn´t a monster encounter. Thanks again for your ideas.
Mojo_Rat 12-23-07, 11:05 PM	If you want to let the character be a vampire type but have it a little more balanced. Might I recomend Vampire spawn instead?. Its weaker than Vampire but you get 4hd out of it and works out to be the same +la as vampire (4hd +4la) so he would be 6 level sorcerer 4 levels of unded hd. If the character took Practiced spellcaster he would be casting as level 10 but admitedly only up to level 3 spells.