Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Silverwave 09-22-05, 11:25 AM	In the yesterday gaming session, we started to wonder how long a player can stay awake without resting and we never found the rule in the books about that. Seems there's no rule for this. A character who don't sleep for one night, is he considered fatigued ?
Zherog 09-22-05, 11:56 AM	There's no rules for it. There's also no rules that say your character has to eat, drink, or use the bathroom. A reasonable house rule is to require players to make Con checks after 24 hours. Not sure what a reasonable starting DC would be, though it should get progressively worse. The bonus from the Endurance feat should be allowed to count towards this check.
katarl 09-22-05, 11:57 AM	Not sure. Generally, when i dm, they're fatigued after 24 hrs without sleep, exhausted after 72 hrs sleep, and dead after a week. If you really want to get into it, you can actually reduce a persons lifespan by continually missing sleep, or having irregular sleeping times (like in real life), or introduce Arcane spell failure for not sleeping (since spellcasting, like math, becomes more difficult as you get tired).
not Yoda 09-22-05, 12:48 PM	introduce Arcane spell failure for not sleeping (since spellcasting, like math, becomes more difficult as you get tired). That IS good I think I might use it. Not that it comes up that often but...
glennhefley 09-22-05, 12:59 PM	WTH? Starvation and Thirst is on page 304 of the DMG . Magic users must sleep for spells. I know there are rules for how long a character has to stay up, but don't have time to look those up at the moment.
Wharin 09-22-05, 01:08 PM	I personally would shorten those hours dramitically. I'd say 16 hours before having to make a CON or Fort check to avoid being fatigued, and exhausted after 24 or 36 hours without sleep. I mean, it could be because I am a wuss, which is very likely, but i know that after pulling an all nighter on Guard duty, i start tripping out and my skin starts to hurt, if that makes any sense. Of course a good shot of adrenelin changes the world, and as adventurers experience adrenelin on a daily basis, maybe you could lengthen these. Just my 2 CP
weasel fierce 09-22-05, 01:20 PM	In the yesterday gaming session, we started to wonder how long a player can stay awake without resting and we never found the rule in the books about that. Seems there's no rule for this. A character who don't sleep for one night, is he considered fatigued ? A player can stay awake untill he runs out of mountain dew and cheetos. For PC's, I'd start applying penalties after 24 hours propably. -1 and a 5% chance of spell failure. Increase these by -1 / 5% for every 6 additional hours
Zherog 09-22-05, 03:05 PM	WTH? Starvation and Thirst is on page 304 of the DMG . Magic users must sleep for spells. I know there are rules for how long a character has to stay up, but don't have time to look those up at the moment. You know, I've been playing 3.x since it came out - and somehow managed to overlook those rules for the past 5 years! :blush: However, I'm fairly certain that you won't find any rules on resting, other than a wizard that is.
DragonDeadite 09-22-05, 03:10 PM	Find the rules on Forced Marching and just start appyling that to sleep deprivation, that's pretty much all we ever did.
Ottergame 09-22-05, 03:40 PM	Magic users must sleep for spells. Actually, only arcane casters need to sleep, divine caster have to pray a certain time every time to get their spells. Both have benefits and drawbacks. A wizard can take an 8 hour rest at any time to refresh spells. A cleric has to pray at dawn (or other time dictated by their faith), and if they miss that time they cannot prepare spells that day, but they don't need a second of sleep to get spells. All casters cannot refresh spell slots that have been cast in the last 8 hours, regardless.
Despana 09-22-05, 03:53 PM	Actually, only arcane casters need to sleep, divine caster have to pray a certain time every time to get their spells. Both have benefits and drawbacks. A wizard can take an 8 hour rest at any time to refresh spells. A cleric has to pray at dawn (or other time dictated by their faith), and if they miss that time they cannot prepare spells that day, but they don't need a second of sleep to get spells. All casters cannot refresh spell slots that have been cast in the last 8 hours, regardless. Not quite right. Divine casters still need to get 8 hours of rest to "clear their minds" in order to actually receive spells when they pray for them, just like arcane casters need 8 hours of rest for the same reason to prepare their spells/renew their spell slots.
Illithid13 09-22-05, 03:57 PM	Not sure. Generally, when i dm, they're fatigued after 24 hrs without sleep, exhausted after 72 hrs sleep, and dead after a week. If you really want to get into it, you can actually reduce a persons lifespan by continually missing sleep, or having irregular sleeping times (like in real life), or introduce Arcane spell failure for not sleeping (since spellcasting, like math, becomes more difficult as you get tired). that's a little steep. I'd say insane, not dead. Your body can function w/o sleep, but the mind starts to go.
curan69 09-22-05, 04:17 PM	i dont think divine spellcasters need to rest at all. Could you tell me where you read that?
Diase 09-22-05, 04:40 PM	i dont think divine spellcasters need to rest at all. Could you tell me where you read that? in the second edition PHB some where i dont feel like pulling it out to find that though man how do your players have there characters go long enough for you to ask this question is what im wandering... No casters? all tanks? you got to be running out of spells/Healing and stuff heck our group atm only acually adventures for like 7 hour days or so then we are out of spells and we go rest to get them back i think you have to at least get 6 hours of sleep in on a arcane caster to get your full spells per day as for a cleric your spells are gone after 24 hours i beleive then you must pray and recieve new ones Dont quote me off all that, thats off my head
Transit 09-22-05, 04:49 PM	Sleeping in Armor A character who sleeps in medium or heavy armor is automatically fatigued the next day. He or she takes a -2 penalty on Strength and Dexterity and can’t charge or run. Sleeping in light armor does not cause fatigue. Since sleeping in medium or heavy armor causes fatigue the next day, I'd house rule that not sleeping at all causes a similar state of fatigue. As for divine casters needing rest: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells.
Godzilla 09-22-05, 04:55 PM	Hm... I remember a rule in either the Player's Handbook, or the DMG about sleeping. Maybe they do sleep, but you just skip that part in your session.
The Almighty Dru 09-22-05, 05:13 PM	See the final line. Humanoid Type Features: A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —8-sided Hit Dice, or by character class. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —Good Reflex saves (usually; a humanoid’s good save varies). —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, or by character class. Traits: A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.
Lorianne 09-22-05, 05:17 PM	I remember having read something about sleeping... I can't remember where exactly though. But anyway, there has to be something we can work out on it... I mean, I can't stay awake for longer than 40 hours (and be active during that time), and I don't think many of you could top that...
Silverwave 09-22-05, 05:31 PM	I personnaly can stay awake for 3 days WITH physical activities (raving, for example lol, and this is without drug use)... but I think it's pretty unusual (i took the feat : Keep Awake when I reached the 3rd lvl, that it). :D
Ottergame 09-22-05, 05:50 PM	i think you have to at least get 6 hours of sleep in on a arcane caster to get your full spells per day as for a cleric your spells are gone after 24 hours i beleive then you must pray and recieve new ones Wrong on both accounts. Casters who prepare spells never lose them, short of dying and being brought back from the dead with just the Raise Dead spell (in which case each spell has a 50% chance of still being prepared). You can prepare a spell, and keep it there for weeks without re-preparing it every day. Secondly, arcane casters need -8- hours of rest, not actual sleep. Otherwise elves would be screwed, since they cannot sleep. :)
Ottergame 09-22-05, 05:52 PM	Not quite right. Divine casters still need to get 8 hours of rest to "clear their minds" in order to actually receive spells when they pray for them, just like arcane casters need 8 hours of rest for the same reason to prepare their spells/renew their spell slots. Nope, I was quite right. Divine casters need no sleep at all to prepare spells.
Zherog 09-22-05, 08:38 PM	Ottergame is completely correct in both his previous posts.
Ringmereth 09-22-05, 09:25 PM	After 24 hours, fatigued. After 36, exhausted. After that, things get fun. A quick Google search reveals the following: One of the symptoms of prolonged sleep deprivation is hallucinations (10). This could also be related to the I-function since it is the system that integrates the input from all other areas of the brain. If the neurons composing the I-function become too taxed then the picture in the head that the I-function produces may be more dissimilar from reality than usual. The neurons, under pressure to continue functioning but unable to perform optimally, create an image useful enough for a person to see most of his or her surroundings. Metabolic activity in the prefrontal cortex can drop as much as eleven percent after a person has missed sleep for only twenty four hours (8). As a person loses more sleep or continues to receive less-than-adequate amounts of sleep the neurons become even more taxed and the I-function may begin to generate even less coherent images possibly resulting in temporary insanity. And regarding death after a week: One of the possible side effects of a continued lack of sleep is death. Usually this is the result of the fact that the immune system is weakened without sleep. The number of white blood cells within the body decreases, as does the activity of the remaining white blood cells. The body also decreases the amount of growth hormone produced (8). The ability of the body to metabolize sugar declines, turning sugar into fat. One study stated that people who sleep less than four hours per night are three times more likely to die within the next six years (11). Although the longest a human has remained awake was eleven days rats that are continually deprived of sleep die within two to five weeks, generally due to their severely weakened immune system. And finally, a note about wizards and requiring sleep to memorize spells: When a person is taught a new skill his or her performance does not improve until he or she receives at least eight hours of sleep (11). An extended period of sleep ensures that the brain will be able to complete the full sleep cycle, including REM sleep. The necessity of sleep for learning could be due to the fact that sleep increases the production of proteins while reducing the rate at which they are broken down (10). Proteins are used to regenerate the neurons within the brain. Without them new synapses may not be able to be formed, thus limiting the amount of information a sleep-deprived individual can maintain. Source: http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web3/Ledoux.html
Dark Stryke 09-23-05, 01:44 PM	hmm... After failing a fortitude save while exhausted from lack of sleep, I'd houserule that the character simply passes out at the next reasonable opportunity. As a gamer, I know what lack of sleep is like. Sometimes if you're incredibly sleep deprived (4 hours of sleep in 48 hours for me) you just fall asleep. If the character were being FORCED to stay awake in some sort of bizarre torture, I would definately rule that hallucinations started after a few days (as the insanity spell) then a few days later, the possibility of death of a failed save. Of course, you could just use nonlethal damage. After failing a fortitude save to stay awake without becoming more tired while already exhausted from lack of sleep, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per hit die (so an 8th level human fighter would take 8d6 points of damage). This non lethal damage cannot be cured by any means, but goes away instantly after the character has at least 8 hours of sleep. This method would eventually force characters to sleep, as the damage would eventually knock them unconcious. Just my thoughts on the matter.
SirJamesOfNine 09-23-05, 01:59 PM	Just posted while I was reading this thread. http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript Later,
katarl 09-23-05, 03:31 PM	My post on sleep was partially based on what military personnel can do, since adventurers in a pseudo-medieval world would probably have the same, or better fitness. You can stay awake, and alert, with physical activity for quite a while , and it is not unknown for people under stress to stay awake for many days at a time, without causing long term damage or becoming anything other than grouchy (with the army, who would know?). Not sleeping for a week, will kill though, your brain needs it, and will permanently shut down otherwise (though it will probably fall asleep on its own long before that). I would not recommend sleep deprivation for anyone who wants a long and healthy life though, its the most important factor in aging to have a regular time to sleep, and living on irregular shifts is (in the long term) quite dangerous. They did a sleep experiment, and around 6 days in, the ordinarily passive subject beat up all the scientists in the room and escaped the facility just to sleep without being woken. Math fails, you can't think straight, your personality warps, you hate everyone, major migraines and many other nasty things. Unless you happen to be an elf, in which case you're fine.