Charisma and Disfigurement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charisma and Disfigurement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Opiate
01-11-04, 04:04 PM Before anyone jumps to conclusions or spouts off on what Charisma is...

"Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting."
--Player's Handbook, page 9

Recently one of my NPC's took a magic missile in the face and was branded on his forehead during an interrogation. This character was an evil Cleric masquerading as a good Cleric. He was very handsome (which was an annoyance for all the male characters in the party) and studly. The torture has ruined his good looks. He was released after his torture and is off in the world planning his revenge.

Since attractiveness is part of the representation of Charisma in two ways, there should be some sort of penalty for disfigurement. The scarring has marred the character's beauty, and the bitterness and rancor he feels over it have marred his way of relating to the world. That has changed both his physical attractiveness and personal magnetism. There should be some negative, Charisma related result from this.

I've been unable to find anything in the DMG about handling disfigurement (just another example of this system's writers' ineptitude). There's nothing prominent in the PHB. So...any ideas from the general gaming community?

I was toying with three ideas.
1) A loss of 1 attribute point per aspect of Charisma marred. In this case, a -2. In the case of a general who has been soundly defeated ina humiliating and morale-shattering way, just a -1 due to his hit in leadership. I think the idea is clear...though somewhat unwieldy.
2) Assign values to disfigurement and apply attribute loss accordingly. Minor scarring is the lowest form for a -1 loss. Major scarring is a -2 loss. Massive disfigurement is a -4 loss.
3) Instead of affecting Charisma, affect social skills--since disfigurement has more affect on social standing than anything else. So a disfigured character would take a -2 (the opposite of the benefit given to skills through Feats such as Negotiator) modifier on Diplomacy, Disguise, and Gather Information checks. Using such a ruling one might also provide a bonus to Intimidate checks.

The only real solution for handling Charisma and related issues is to add another stat for physical beauty or create Feats to handle attractiveness. G.U.R.P.S. handles attractiveness with advantages and disadvantages, and does so in a more flexible, manageable, and realistic manner. It wouldn't be hard for the writers of this system to adapt it to handling physical beauty, and it would certainly solve a problem the system has had since its origins.
Bacon and Eggs
01-11-04, 08:45 PM Try Anti-Feats or Counter Feats. Otherwise known as Drawbacks.

Hand it out for just such an occasion. Because what you really want to have penalized is the use of social skills with respect to visual presentation.

Stick with option 3.
OldKyShark
01-12-04, 07:05 PM Physical disfigurement CANNOT apply a penalty to a mental stat.

It could possibly apply a situational penalty/bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and/or Gather Information.
q'afuu
01-12-04, 07:54 PM Originally posted by Opiate
just another example of this system's writers' ineptitude Please. If you expect a written rule for all details such as this one, you should expect both the PHB and the DMG to be about 4 times as thick (and consequently 4 times as costly and needing 4 times as much time to develop) as they are now.

Besides, you can't use a simple rule for this: some scars are disfiguring, others enhance a character's looks, some are intimidating, others might even be ridiculous. Same with visible tattoos: some people will like them, others will be turned off by them. IOW, depending on the situation and on what you want to do, the 'disfigurement' may be reason for a penalty, may have no real effect or may even be reason for a bonus.

I agree with OldKyShark: you shouldn't apply a penalty to the stat, nor even a flat penalty to specific skills. Whether a penalty or a bonus is appropriate or not is a situational issue.
SputnikCorp
01-12-04, 08:26 PM just institute a new stat: apperance. i'm considering it after seeing the rules in the book of erotic fantasy.

you shouldn't take away charisma like that. especially since many character classes depend on it.
strenoth
01-12-04, 10:26 PM CHA is a mental stat, or are you going to say that the ability of a cleric to turn undead is based off how good he looks?
Kaya Kenobi
01-12-04, 10:36 PM That's why Night Hags are ugly, and yet have a Cha of around 16?
ante_up
01-12-04, 11:42 PM First, by starting with "Before anyone jumps to conclusions or spouts off on what Charisma is..." you are encouraging people to discuss this.

Second, the definition of Charisma includes physical attractiveness; however, everything else points to it having nothing else to do with looks.
q'afuu
01-12-04, 11:52 PM I figure physical attractiveness comes from having high charisma, not the other way 'round.
Opiate
01-13-04, 04:38 AM Most players associate physical beauty with high Charisma and then get sniffy when someone like me suggests docking Charisma for physical flaws. Suddenly they're rule-mongers who claim that Charisma isn't about beauty. <sigh> Not even God gets to have it both ways...

Originally posted by OldKyShark
Physical disfigurement CANNOT apply a penalty to a mental stat.

Let me refresh your memory:
"Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting."
--Player's Handbook, page 9

Notice where I've highlighted physical.
Charisma is NOT a "mental" stat. It's just one example of the needlessly nebulous stats that the game creators just throw out haphazardly. It's a blend of several real concepts that the designers chose not to deal with and lumped together. Charisma is physical, maybe a touch mystical/spiritual, and VERY social. Social and physical are both affected by disfigurement.

Your agreement with my idea for skill penalties falls in line with the majority of constructive responses. I think I've decided this is the way to go.
I agree that robbing a character of Charisma for disfigurement could seriously hurt class abilities and be an unbalanced method of dealing with the situation. I was leaning toward my original #3 suggestion in the first place, and the constructive commentary here has decided it for me. I think anything short of full facial disfiguration is going to be a -2 penalty and having one's face ripped off will be a -4 penalty.
These penalties will only apply with one's creature type (Humanoids, Giant, Outsider, Dragon). Beauty is, after all, in the eye of the beholder. A Night Hag (to borrow...) might find a disfigured Human Cleric quite attractive, or at least be more friendly than with a golden-haired, George Hamilton tanned Paladin.

Originally posted by q'afuu
Please. If you expect a written rule for all details such as this one, you should expect both the PHB and the DMG to be about 4 times as thick (and consequently 4 times as costly and needing 4 times as much time to develop) as they are now.

G.U.R.P.S. Basic Set...single book...hardcover (older copies were paperback)...smaller than the PHB and DMG combined...sells for ($29.95) less than the PHB and DMG...only book you NEED to play the game...details the exact rules you just said were impossible to print in a timely and inexpensive fashion.
My wife was lucky enough to catch a Wizards store going out of business, selling the PHB and DMG for their actual value (half price), and they were still more expensive than the G.U.R.P.S. Basic Set.
In addition, the G.U.R.P.S. system doesn't strive to suck your pocket dry. The most recent printing of the rules has collected most of the core skills and advantages/disadvantages into the Basic Set (they used to be printed in a Compendium)...they actually pack MORE value into each printing. Wizards keeps you buying new books every few months.
I've never been disappointed with a G.U.R.P.S. sourcebook, but I wouldn't wipe my...nethers...with the pages of the 3.5 Fighter "splat" book. It is possible to pack better rules and more content into less space for less money.
Try again.

And as for your comment about physical attractiveness coming from Charisma: it's apparent that you really don't understand the concept of Charisma in d20 (and who can blame you when it's so poorly written and handled).
Charismatic characters are not specifically attractive. They, "may be attractive, striking, personable, and confident." Read your PHB again...page 10. Charisma does not denote high personal beauty any more than it denotes forceful presence. It's an amalgam of all of these things, and up to the player to figure out how his/her character fits Charisma. It's a balance of many qualities.

For example, I play a nomadic Fighter in a friend's campaign. She's sharp, impatient, and somewhat condescending. Coupled with her cultural differences, this has given her a bad rep with the rest of the party. So I play her as pretty with a strong presence and confidence. On the other hand, I once had an ogre with a higher than normal Charisma. He wasn't pretty, but he bathed regularly and was personable. His Charisma was higher than 10 regardless of his beauty.

Originally posted by ante_up
Second, the definition of Charisma includes physical attractiveness; however, everything else points to it having nothing else to do with looks.

And you're the one person I knew would come along with this argument. That's why I highlighted, "not merely how one is perceived" in my original post.
What are you smoking? Is physical beauty a part of Charisma or not? How can the definition include physical attraction as part of what Charisma is and then say looks have nothing to do with it? You're chasing your tail.
I'll make it simple...it's not JUST about physical appearance, but it's also not JUST about strength of presence. It's an amalgam: a combination of diverse elements; a mixture. Physical appearance is a part of that JUST as much as any "mental" stat.

And speaking of "mental"...
For you mental stat folks...Charisma is in no way "mental". Spiritual, maybe. It's about your force of presence, social interaction, and physical appearance. There's nothing "mental" about that except the suggestion itself. If the game creators have declared it "mental" somewhere, then they're just as wrong about that as they were about creating AoO. However, I can find no reference to it being "mental" and think that's just the inanity of board chatter.

Kenobi...you are but a padawan.
Night Hags are ugly but apparently have a greater personal presence...one that borders on the mystical. Vampires, too, are often depicted as being hideous (Nosferatu), and yet can command lovely beauties through their personal magnetism. Their presence intimidates and leaves mortals in awe. It's that balance of the various components of Charisma that I mentioned earlier.

Thanks to those with constructive posts. For the rest of you, you've reminded me why I don't come here to chat and discuss creative ideas more often.
Palin the Wizard
01-13-04, 05:13 AM Opiate -- since you are praising G.U.R.P.S. so much, how come you are here, asking a question about D&D? If the writers of 3rd Edition were as inept as you claim, why are you even bothering?

Yes, Charisma is composed of several different components, but all the other statistics are so as well.
Confidence, personality, persuasiveness, personal magnatism, ability to lead... How is Charisma not mental? Yes, these abilities are also social. However, that does not stop them from being mental.

Charisma is also more than what you have described. At the core, Charisma is the ability to differ between yourself and others. Anything with a Cha score of 0 is not a creature; it is defined as an object.
Escef
01-13-04, 05:37 AM Opiate, I suggest you reread that paragraph you qouted and count how many different traits charisma covers. Five. So you would have us believe that damaging one of those would severly impact the rest? I'd give him penalties on initial reactions, but that's about it. And as for your anti-D&D/pro-G.U.R.P.S. ranting all I have to say is: Have fun playing G.U.R.P.S., D&D won't suffer for the loss of you. Why are you playing a game you hate so much? Play G.U.R.P.S. and have fun, don't bash a system we enjoy using and expect us to take it lying down.

SputnikCorp: In the 1e Unearthed Arcana a Comeliness stat was introduced. No group I ever gamed with used it for long. It was largely a useless stat, and it's only purpose was to give power-gamers another dump stat. I wouldn't bother if I were you, but if you insist upon using it please lets us know what results you get. (Hopefully better than some of my older groups.)
Lankin the Mad Mage
01-13-04, 05:44 AM If charisma depended on your looks your charisma would fluctuate with every person you met, since beauty is wholly subjective.

How does mindflayers measure beuty? Would they find a human attractive/lovely? Probably not.

Orcs actually think scars are nice. If he met an orc, the scar would make his Cha go UP.

If you absolutely MUST do something about this, impose a -2 penalty to Diplomacy due to bad attitude and +2 bonus to Intimidate due to bad attitude.

What you describe as a personality change is rolepleying. If every time my character roleplayed, his stats would change, how could the game work?

Barbarian has int 3.
Player plays him as if he had Int 18.
Player now claims Barbarian has Int 18 since that is how he is played.

Anyone else see the problem with this? Allowing roleplaying to change everything on the character sheet.
Kaya Kenobi
01-13-04, 07:20 AM Originally posted by Opiate
Kenobi...you are but a padawan.
Night Hags are ugly but apparently have a greater personal presence...one that borders on the mystical. Vampires, too, are often depicted as being hideous (Nosferatu), and yet can command lovely beauties through their personal magnetism. Their presence intimidates and leaves mortals in awe. It's that balance of the various components of Charisma that I mentioned earlier.

That's basicly what I was getting at.

Disfigurement could also be a great intimidation tool, or a good unity tool. Say you're famous in everyone's eye in town. Some orcs rob you and beats you to a bloody pulp. Suddenly everyone who loves you, will rise up and slaughter every orc in sight. That's the case of the father who killed every snake because his son/daughter was bitten by a snake. Except this one, without snakes, rats will multiply quickly.. And in the case of the orcs, without them, the goblins will become so many in number it would be impossible to contain the chicken (food) of the monster armies..
q'afuu
01-13-04, 08:58 AM Originally posted by Opiate
1) G.U.R.P.S.

2) Charismatic characters are not specifically attractive. They, "may be attractive, striking, personable, and confident." Read your PHB again...page 10. Charisma does not denote high personal beauty any more than it denotes forceful presence. It's an amalgam of all of these things, and up to the player to figure out how his/her character fits Charisma.
1) I don't like GURPS. Give me a class-based system any day. That said, not even GURPS covers every detail that's as insignificant as scarring just because it covers that specific one. Other than that, you can't compare GURPS and the D20 system that easily. Flat rules for scars like what you suggest may work in GURPS, they don't in D20.

2) In that case, it's obvious none of your suggested rules work. They might (to an extent) work for the specific character you mention if for that character's Cha is all due to good looks, they won't work at all for the next character whose Cha is all due to 'force of personality'.

Then again, most of things affected by Cha aren't affected by a marring of beauty (a sorcerer's spellcasting, a cleric's turning, a paladin's divine grace, skills like handle animal and UMD). There are skills where it might have an effect, but even for those that effect will be situational and might be a bonus as often as a penalty.

Physical attractiveness does often come at least in part from force of personality. It's the difference between someone with say, classical good looks and a vacuous expression on his/her face and the same person with the same looks but who radiates an aura of confidence and wit.
Ashlock
01-13-04, 09:09 AM I highly recommend applying a circumstance penalty whenever the character is dealing with someone who is subject to such prejudice as disfigurement or scarring. Not everyone will be, but as in real life, many people do judge you by your appearance.

If you try to lay down a drain on Charisma, how then will you handle it when the character interacts with a blind NPC? Then you'd just have to add a circumstance bonus for the NPC's being blind. And that just gets messy.

Having a floating circumstance penalty makes the most sense to me, which you suspend on the rare occassion that the character meets an NPC who is bereft of such bias.
SputnikCorp
01-13-04, 10:38 AM SputnikCorp: In the 1e Unearthed Arcana a Comeliness stat was introduced. No group I ever gamed with used it for long. It was largely a useless stat, and it's only purpose was to give power-gamers another dump stat. I wouldn't bother if I were you, but if you insist upon using it please lets us know what results you get. (Hopefully better than some of my older groups.)

good point. i remember that as well. if i do do this, after all the stats have been allocated, i'll let each player roll 3d6 and add in their charisma modifier, thus giving their apperance stat. it has no real effect in the game, it's just a role-playing tool. just to see which PC the comely wench takes upstairs sort of thing.
Salla
01-13-04, 10:46 AM Well, if you've houseruled disfigurements, I suppose you may as well houserule how you want 'em to affect the person who got 'em.

Any reason Mr. Scarred Guy doesn't just go pay for a Cure Moderate Wounds and get his face fixed?
Hogre
01-13-04, 10:59 AM The penalty should definately not be applied to the stat.

A penalty to certain skills may be warranted, but it is very circumstancial.
Selebius
01-13-04, 12:33 PM Give the character a -2 penalty to Diplomacy and a +2 bonus to intimidate.

To change a stat a Wish is needed, a MM and some hot iron will not do that trick ;).

Sel
diaglo
01-13-04, 01:12 PM next he is gonna add critical hits as core and called shots to the rules.:eek:

if you use cure spells to cure hps. then mr. disfigured should be cured.

otherwise every hit that causes a wound will leave a scar/disfigurement.

and every adventurer would be in the negatives for Cha.
Kaya Kenobi
01-13-04, 06:01 PM Originally posted by diaglo
next he is gonna add critical hits as core and called shots to the rules.:eek:

if you use cure spells to cure hps. then mr. disfigured should be cured.

otherwise every hit that causes a wound will leave a scar/disfigurement.

and every adventurer would be in the negatives for Cha.

I had a half orc barbarian who loved battle scars, and would get :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: when a cure spell healed them too..

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Opiate 01-11-04, 04:04 PM	Before anyone jumps to conclusions or spouts off on what Charisma is... "Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting." --Player's Handbook, page 9 Recently one of my NPC's took a magic missile in the face and was branded on his forehead during an interrogation. This character was an evil Cleric masquerading as a good Cleric. He was very handsome (which was an annoyance for all the male characters in the party) and studly. The torture has ruined his good looks. He was released after his torture and is off in the world planning his revenge. Since attractiveness is part of the representation of Charisma in two ways, there should be some sort of penalty for disfigurement. The scarring has marred the character's beauty, and the bitterness and rancor he feels over it have marred his way of relating to the world. That has changed both his physical attractiveness and personal magnetism. There should be some negative, Charisma related result from this. I've been unable to find anything in the DMG about handling disfigurement (just another example of this system's writers' ineptitude). There's nothing prominent in the PHB. So...any ideas from the general gaming community? I was toying with three ideas. 1) A loss of 1 attribute point per aspect of Charisma marred. In this case, a -2. In the case of a general who has been soundly defeated ina humiliating and morale-shattering way, just a -1 due to his hit in leadership. I think the idea is clear...though somewhat unwieldy. 2) Assign values to disfigurement and apply attribute loss accordingly. Minor scarring is the lowest form for a -1 loss. Major scarring is a -2 loss. Massive disfigurement is a -4 loss. 3) Instead of affecting Charisma, affect social skills--since disfigurement has more affect on social standing than anything else. So a disfigured character would take a -2 (the opposite of the benefit given to skills through Feats such as Negotiator) modifier on Diplomacy, Disguise, and Gather Information checks. Using such a ruling one might also provide a bonus to Intimidate checks. The only real solution for handling Charisma and related issues is to add another stat for physical beauty or create Feats to handle attractiveness. G.U.R.P.S. handles attractiveness with advantages and disadvantages, and does so in a more flexible, manageable, and realistic manner. It wouldn't be hard for the writers of this system to adapt it to handling physical beauty, and it would certainly solve a problem the system has had since its origins.
Bacon and Eggs 01-11-04, 08:45 PM	Try Anti-Feats or Counter Feats. Otherwise known as Drawbacks. Hand it out for just such an occasion. Because what you really want to have penalized is the use of social skills with respect to visual presentation. Stick with option 3.
OldKyShark 01-12-04, 07:05 PM	Physical disfigurement CANNOT apply a penalty to a mental stat. It could possibly apply a situational penalty/bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and/or Gather Information.
q'afuu 01-12-04, 07:54 PM	Originally posted by Opiate just another example of this system's writers' ineptitude Please. If you expect a written rule for all details such as this one, you should expect both the PHB and the DMG to be about 4 times as thick (and consequently 4 times as costly and needing 4 times as much time to develop) as they are now. Besides, you can't use a simple rule for this: some scars are disfiguring, others enhance a character's looks, some are intimidating, others might even be ridiculous. Same with visible tattoos: some people will like them, others will be turned off by them. IOW, depending on the situation and on what you want to do, the 'disfigurement' may be reason for a penalty, may have no real effect or may even be reason for a bonus. I agree with OldKyShark: you shouldn't apply a penalty to the stat, nor even a flat penalty to specific skills. Whether a penalty or a bonus is appropriate or not is a situational issue.
SputnikCorp 01-12-04, 08:26 PM	just institute a new stat: apperance. i'm considering it after seeing the rules in the book of erotic fantasy. you shouldn't take away charisma like that. especially since many character classes depend on it.
strenoth 01-12-04, 10:26 PM	CHA is a mental stat, or are you going to say that the ability of a cleric to turn undead is based off how good he looks?
Kaya Kenobi 01-12-04, 10:36 PM	That's why Night Hags are ugly, and yet have a Cha of around 16?
ante_up 01-12-04, 11:42 PM	First, by starting with "Before anyone jumps to conclusions or spouts off on what Charisma is..." you are encouraging people to discuss this. Second, the definition of Charisma includes physical attractiveness; however, everything else points to it having nothing else to do with looks.
q'afuu 01-12-04, 11:52 PM	I figure physical attractiveness comes from having high charisma, not the other way 'round.
Opiate 01-13-04, 04:38 AM	Most players associate physical beauty with high Charisma and then get sniffy when someone like me suggests docking Charisma for physical flaws. Suddenly they're rule-mongers who claim that Charisma isn't about beauty. <sigh> Not even God gets to have it both ways... Originally posted by OldKyShark Physical disfigurement CANNOT apply a penalty to a mental stat. Let me refresh your memory: "Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting." --Player's Handbook, page 9 Notice where I've highlighted physical. Charisma is NOT a "mental" stat. It's just one example of the needlessly nebulous stats that the game creators just throw out haphazardly. It's a blend of several real concepts that the designers chose not to deal with and lumped together. Charisma is physical, maybe a touch mystical/spiritual, and VERY social. Social and physical are both affected by disfigurement. Your agreement with my idea for skill penalties falls in line with the majority of constructive responses. I think I've decided this is the way to go. I agree that robbing a character of Charisma for disfigurement could seriously hurt class abilities and be an unbalanced method of dealing with the situation. I was leaning toward my original #3 suggestion in the first place, and the constructive commentary here has decided it for me. I think anything short of full facial disfiguration is going to be a -2 penalty and having one's face ripped off will be a -4 penalty. These penalties will only apply with one's creature type (Humanoids, Giant, Outsider, Dragon). Beauty is, after all, in the eye of the beholder. A Night Hag (to borrow...) might find a disfigured Human Cleric quite attractive, or at least be more friendly than with a golden-haired, George Hamilton tanned Paladin. Originally posted by q'afuu Please. If you expect a written rule for all details such as this one, you should expect both the PHB and the DMG to be about 4 times as thick (and consequently 4 times as costly and needing 4 times as much time to develop) as they are now. G.U.R.P.S. Basic Set...single book...hardcover (older copies were paperback)...smaller than the PHB and DMG combined...sells for ($29.95) less than the PHB and DMG...only book you NEED to play the game...details the exact rules you just said were impossible to print in a timely and inexpensive fashion. My wife was lucky enough to catch a Wizards store going out of business, selling the PHB and DMG for their actual value (half price), and they were still more expensive than the G.U.R.P.S. Basic Set. In addition, the G.U.R.P.S. system doesn't strive to suck your pocket dry. The most recent printing of the rules has collected most of the core skills and advantages/disadvantages into the Basic Set (they used to be printed in a Compendium)...they actually pack MORE value into each printing. Wizards keeps you buying new books every few months. I've never been disappointed with a G.U.R.P.S. sourcebook, but I wouldn't wipe my...nethers...with the pages of the 3.5 Fighter "splat" book. It is possible to pack better rules and more content into less space for less money. Try again. And as for your comment about physical attractiveness coming from Charisma: it's apparent that you really don't understand the concept of Charisma in d20 (and who can blame you when it's so poorly written and handled). Charismatic characters are not specifically attractive. They, "may be attractive, striking, personable, and confident." Read your PHB again...page 10. Charisma does not denote high personal beauty any more than it denotes forceful presence. It's an amalgam of all of these things, and up to the player to figure out how his/her character fits Charisma. It's a balance of many qualities. For example, I play a nomadic Fighter in a friend's campaign. She's sharp, impatient, and somewhat condescending. Coupled with her cultural differences, this has given her a bad rep with the rest of the party. So I play her as pretty with a strong presence and confidence. On the other hand, I once had an ogre with a higher than normal Charisma. He wasn't pretty, but he bathed regularly and was personable. His Charisma was higher than 10 regardless of his beauty. Originally posted by ante_up Second, the definition of Charisma includes physical attractiveness; however, everything else points to it having nothing else to do with looks. And you're the one person I knew would come along with this argument. That's why I highlighted, "not merely how one is perceived" in my original post. What are you smoking? Is physical beauty a part of Charisma or not? How can the definition include physical attraction as part of what Charisma is and then say looks have nothing to do with it? You're chasing your tail. I'll make it simple...it's not JUST about physical appearance, but it's also not JUST about strength of presence. It's an amalgam: a combination of diverse elements; a mixture. Physical appearance is a part of that JUST as much as any "mental" stat. And speaking of "mental"... For you mental stat folks...Charisma is in no way "mental". Spiritual, maybe. It's about your force of presence, social interaction, and physical appearance. There's nothing "mental" about that except the suggestion itself. If the game creators have declared it "mental" somewhere, then they're just as wrong about that as they were about creating AoO. However, I can find no reference to it being "mental" and think that's just the inanity of board chatter. Kenobi...you are but a padawan. Night Hags are ugly but apparently have a greater personal presence...one that borders on the mystical. Vampires, too, are often depicted as being hideous (Nosferatu), and yet can command lovely beauties through their personal magnetism. Their presence intimidates and leaves mortals in awe. It's that balance of the various components of Charisma that I mentioned earlier. Thanks to those with constructive posts. For the rest of you, you've reminded me why I don't come here to chat and discuss creative ideas more often.
Palin the Wizard 01-13-04, 05:13 AM	Opiate -- since you are praising G.U.R.P.S. so much, how come you are here, asking a question about D&D? If the writers of 3rd Edition were as inept as you claim, why are you even bothering? Yes, Charisma is composed of several different components, but all the other statistics are so as well. Confidence, personality, persuasiveness, personal magnatism, ability to lead... How is Charisma not mental? Yes, these abilities are also social. However, that does not stop them from being mental. Charisma is also more than what you have described. At the core, Charisma is the ability to differ between yourself and others. Anything with a Cha score of 0 is not a creature; it is defined as an object.
Escef 01-13-04, 05:37 AM	Opiate, I suggest you reread that paragraph you qouted and count how many different traits charisma covers. Five. So you would have us believe that damaging one of those would severly impact the rest? I'd give him penalties on initial reactions, but that's about it. And as for your anti-D&D/pro-G.U.R.P.S. ranting all I have to say is: Have fun playing G.U.R.P.S., D&D won't suffer for the loss of you. Why are you playing a game you hate so much? Play G.U.R.P.S. and have fun, don't bash a system we enjoy using and expect us to take it lying down. SputnikCorp: In the 1e Unearthed Arcana a Comeliness stat was introduced. No group I ever gamed with used it for long. It was largely a useless stat, and it's only purpose was to give power-gamers another dump stat. I wouldn't bother if I were you, but if you insist upon using it please lets us know what results you get. (Hopefully better than some of my older groups.)
Lankin the Mad Mage 01-13-04, 05:44 AM	If charisma depended on your looks your charisma would fluctuate with every person you met, since beauty is wholly subjective. How does mindflayers measure beuty? Would they find a human attractive/lovely? Probably not. Orcs actually think scars are nice. If he met an orc, the scar would make his Cha go UP. If you absolutely MUST do something about this, impose a -2 penalty to Diplomacy due to bad attitude and +2 bonus to Intimidate due to bad attitude. What you describe as a personality change is rolepleying. If every time my character roleplayed, his stats would change, how could the game work? Barbarian has int 3. Player plays him as if he had Int 18. Player now claims Barbarian has Int 18 since that is how he is played. Anyone else see the problem with this? Allowing roleplaying to change everything on the character sheet.
Kaya Kenobi 01-13-04, 07:20 AM	Originally posted by Opiate Kenobi...you are but a padawan. Night Hags are ugly but apparently have a greater personal presence...one that borders on the mystical. Vampires, too, are often depicted as being hideous (Nosferatu), and yet can command lovely beauties through their personal magnetism. Their presence intimidates and leaves mortals in awe. It's that balance of the various components of Charisma that I mentioned earlier. That's basicly what I was getting at. Disfigurement could also be a great intimidation tool, or a good unity tool. Say you're famous in everyone's eye in town. Some orcs rob you and beats you to a bloody pulp. Suddenly everyone who loves you, will rise up and slaughter every orc in sight. That's the case of the father who killed every snake because his son/daughter was bitten by a snake. Except this one, without snakes, rats will multiply quickly.. And in the case of the orcs, without them, the goblins will become so many in number it would be impossible to contain the chicken (food) of the monster armies..
q'afuu 01-13-04, 08:58 AM	Originally posted by Opiate 1) G.U.R.P.S. 2) Charismatic characters are not specifically attractive. They, "may be attractive, striking, personable, and confident." Read your PHB again...page 10. Charisma does not denote high personal beauty any more than it denotes forceful presence. It's an amalgam of all of these things, and up to the player to figure out how his/her character fits Charisma. 1) I don't like GURPS. Give me a class-based system any day. That said, not even GURPS covers every detail that's as insignificant as scarring just because it covers that specific one. Other than that, you can't compare GURPS and the D20 system that easily. Flat rules for scars like what you suggest may work in GURPS, they don't in D20. 2) In that case, it's obvious none of your suggested rules work. They might (to an extent) work for the specific character you mention if for that character's Cha is all due to good looks, they won't work at all for the next character whose Cha is all due to 'force of personality'. Then again, most of things affected by Cha aren't affected by a marring of beauty (a sorcerer's spellcasting, a cleric's turning, a paladin's divine grace, skills like handle animal and UMD). There are skills where it might have an effect, but even for those that effect will be situational and might be a bonus as often as a penalty. Physical attractiveness does often come at least in part from force of personality. It's the difference between someone with say, classical good looks and a vacuous expression on his/her face and the same person with the same looks but who radiates an aura of confidence and wit.
Ashlock 01-13-04, 09:09 AM	I highly recommend applying a circumstance penalty whenever the character is dealing with someone who is subject to such prejudice as disfigurement or scarring. Not everyone will be, but as in real life, many people do judge you by your appearance. If you try to lay down a drain on Charisma, how then will you handle it when the character interacts with a blind NPC? Then you'd just have to add a circumstance bonus for the NPC's being blind. And that just gets messy. Having a floating circumstance penalty makes the most sense to me, which you suspend on the rare occassion that the character meets an NPC who is bereft of such bias.
SputnikCorp 01-13-04, 10:38 AM	SputnikCorp: In the 1e Unearthed Arcana a Comeliness stat was introduced. No group I ever gamed with used it for long. It was largely a useless stat, and it's only purpose was to give power-gamers another dump stat. I wouldn't bother if I were you, but if you insist upon using it please lets us know what results you get. (Hopefully better than some of my older groups.) good point. i remember that as well. if i do do this, after all the stats have been allocated, i'll let each player roll 3d6 and add in their charisma modifier, thus giving their apperance stat. it has no real effect in the game, it's just a role-playing tool. just to see which PC the comely wench takes upstairs sort of thing.
Salla 01-13-04, 10:46 AM	Well, if you've houseruled disfigurements, I suppose you may as well houserule how you want 'em to affect the person who got 'em. Any reason Mr. Scarred Guy doesn't just go pay for a Cure Moderate Wounds and get his face fixed?
Hogre 01-13-04, 10:59 AM	The penalty should definately not be applied to the stat. A penalty to certain skills may be warranted, but it is very circumstancial.
Selebius 01-13-04, 12:33 PM	Give the character a -2 penalty to Diplomacy and a +2 bonus to intimidate. To change a stat a Wish is needed, a MM and some hot iron will not do that trick ;). Sel
diaglo 01-13-04, 01:12 PM	next he is gonna add critical hits as core and called shots to the rules.:eek: if you use cure spells to cure hps. then mr. disfigured should be cured. otherwise every hit that causes a wound will leave a scar/disfigurement. and every adventurer would be in the negatives for Cha.
Kaya Kenobi 01-13-04, 06:01 PM	Originally posted by diaglo next he is gonna add critical hits as core and called shots to the rules.:eek: if you use cure spells to cure hps. then mr. disfigured should be cured. otherwise every hit that causes a wound will leave a scar/disfigurement. and every adventurer would be in the negatives for Cha. I had a half orc barbarian who loved battle scars, and would get :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: when a cure spell healed them too..