Charisma as Luck [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charisma as Luck [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BlaineTog
09-22-06, 05:30 PM Ok, so I've this idea for a way to make Charisma useful to everyone, but it needs sanding (as it stands, it's somewhat inelegant). Once per day per four character levels (minimum 0), you may add your Charisma modifer to any d20 roll. If you have a negative Charisma modifier, there is a 5% chance for any d20 roll for which you would be unable to take ten that you take your charisma modifer as a penalty to your roll.

Now, this does mean an extra roll, but it's just a quick unmodified d20 roll; if it lands on 1, you're penalized.

Thoughts? Other than "leave Charisma be," preferably, as I'd really rather like some help making the idea workable than just ignoring the problem with Charisma altogether.
bassist33333
09-22-06, 05:36 PM Why?

A. Charisma doesn't really apply to luck; it's personality.
B. It would make some classes who are dependent on Charisma as a main attribute (Sorcerers, Bards, etc.) more powerful while others who thought it as a throw-away skill less powerful, since it'd make them more MAD (multiple-attribute-dependent) which would just disrupt all the balances there.
C. There's already a "luck" representative, and that's the three save throws you get.
D. It's not necessary, and it'd be just a meaningless roll that disrupts the balance. Also there's no "problem with Charisma." People just like to complain and pretend that there is one. As an attribute, I've always found it fine where it is.

Sorry for being pessimistic.

<_<
~Bass'-ist.
Neutronium_Dragon
09-22-06, 05:56 PM Hmm. Rather than dealing with an intrinsic which just adds more complexity (and a lot of added rolling with the penalty), how about a feat?

--

"Ace Rimmer Emulation"

Benefit: Once per day per point of Charisma bonus, you may add a +1 Luck bonus to any attack, save, skill check, or ability check.

--

There. Nice and straightforward and it doesn't create too much additional work during gameplay.
BlaineTog
09-22-06, 08:00 PM A. Charisma doesn't really apply to luck; it's personality.In movies and literature (ie some of the big source materials for D&D), strong personality and luck are very often tied very closely together.

B. It would make some classes who are dependent on Charisma as a main attribute (Sorcerers, Bards, etc.) more powerful while others who thought it as a throw-away skill less powerful, since it'd make them more MAD (multiple-attribute-dependent) which would just disrupt all the balances there.Undoubtable. However, why is this necessarily bad? And why should the classes that want to dump charisma get away with having a free dump stat while the Sorcerer and Bard can't dump anything without paying in one way or another.

C. There's already a "luck" representative, and that's the three save throws you get.No, your saving throws represent how good you are at resisting verious effects. The d20 roll represents the randomness of combat, neither working for or against you. Luck itself is only rarely represented.

D. It's not necessary, and it'd be just a meaningless roll that disrupts the balance. Also there's no "problem with Charisma." People just like to complain and pretend that there is one. As an attribute, I've always found it fine where it is.I believe I said something in the original post about this. But in any case, there is a problem with Charisma. Compare it with any other attribute. If you were a sorcerer and you were given the option to use any attribute you wanted for your casting stat, would you choose Charisma? Even excluding the physical ones, wouldn't you much prefer Int (for the skill points and bonus to Spellcraft) or Wisdom (for the Will save bonus) to Charisma (which, uh, adds to skills, just like all the other ones, and helps if you use Charm Person or Charm Monster, all of two spells)?

@Neutronium_Dragon,

Yes, one could do that. That would also not make Charisma any more useful. The feat may or may not be balanced, but it doesn't answer the design goal.
aotrscommander
09-22-06, 08:09 PM Interesting idea. Not one I'd use myself, but even so.

how about, instaed of making a gratuitous roll for when your penalty is applied, the DM instead chooses when to apply it?

Actually, you could go the whole hog and say you can apply your positive char bonus as a penalty to a roll you opponent makes instead of a bonus to you (or vice versa for a negative one).
Neutronium_Dragon
09-22-06, 08:35 PM Mr. Sorcerer with the super-Cha has a much easier time using a number of other spells, too - especially the Planar Binding ones, if he cares to go that route. (They're Cha-check based.)

But really, this is trying to solve a problem that isn't.

Every class has a dump stat and every class has a stat or two which they really want. A sorcerer can dump Str or Wis with little problem just like a fighter can dump Cha. All ability scores are not created equal within the context of a given class and they're not meant to be equally valuable (or in some cases, valuable at all) to every class.
Artector
09-22-06, 08:39 PM I'd keep it KISS.

Apply your charisma on one roll a day per point of charisma, negative charisma doesn't grant you this benefit.

And the problem I see with charisma is inherent in the point buy being so low, you can't play that diverse a character :/
Silverthumb128
09-22-06, 10:08 PM I kind of like the idea. Personally, I'd give this a time limitation between uses. And it makes me think that Halflings could drop the +1 bonus to saves in favor of getting a +1 bonus to this check.

I don't think that this would force MAD upon everyone, because basically, not everyone has to be lucky, you can still be good without being lucky. Its just that Charisma-based classes will be getting boosts without trying. But this will be possible for everyone, even NPCs(if I ran it, that is).

At the least, this could be a cool ability for a PrC, if it doesn't fly as a general rule.
BlaineTog
09-22-06, 10:40 PM I don't think that this would force MAD upon everyone, because basically, not everyone has to be lucky, you can still be good without being lucky.Ok first, everyone already has MAD if you consider this MAD.

Second, yes, you can be good without being lucky. You can also have a strong personality without being extremely beautiful, and you can likewise be extremely beautiful without having a strong personality. Charisma is already amorphous. A little more is hardly out of line.

Its just that Charisma-based classes will be getting boosts without trying. But this will be possible for everyone, even NPCs(if I ran it, that is).Cha-based classes'll get a boost, but it seems only fair, given that they had to stress Charisma.

I'd keep it KISS.

Apply your charisma on one roll a day per point of charisma, negative charisma doesn't grant you this benefit.Yeah, but that's not in keeping with the way ability scores work. They help you if they're high and hurt you if they're low.
Artector
09-22-06, 10:41 PM At the least, this could be a cool ability for a PrC, if it doesn't fly as a general rule.

There's already the fatespinner. Even though that's fate and not luck it comes to the same thing.
ArcTan
09-22-06, 10:52 PM In movies and literature (ie some of the big source materials for D&D), strong personality and luck are very often tied very closely together.

"We are TOO PRETTY to die!"
theotherdraxen
09-22-06, 11:08 PM Ok, so I've this idea for a way to make Charisma useful to everyone, but it needs sanding (as it stands, it's somewhat inelegant). Once per day per four character levels (minimum 0), you may add your Charisma modifer to any d20 roll. If you have a negative Charisma modifier, there is a 5% chance for any d20 roll for which you would be unable to take ten that you take your charisma modifer as a penalty to your roll.

Now, this does mean an extra roll, but it's just a quick unmodified d20 roll; if it lands on 1, you're penalized.

Thoughts? Other than "leave Charisma be," preferably, as I'd really rather like some help making the idea workable than just ignoring the problem with Charisma altogether.
BlaineTog, this is an excellent idea! I always play high-charisma characters, and a common theme amongst these characters is that they are incredibly lucky.

Charisma is regarded as the weakest of all stats. This would help the charisma-oriented to take some of the fight back. Most stats offer something beyond a bonus: Str increases attack & damage, Dex increases AC and reflex, Con increases HP and fort, Int increases skills, Wis increases will, but Charisma confers no such solid bonus. This is why most power-gamers will choose to dump charisma (and then proceed to complain about how over powered social skills are).

Although allowing it to apply to any roll seems a little unusual to me. I almost imagine a 'luck save' (applies to all spells that don't normally allow a save, saying that the caster fumbles the spell?) of some kind, but I don't know.

I don't think that this would force MAD upon everyone, because basically, not everyone has to be lucky, you can still be good without being lucky. Its just that Charisma-based classes will be getting boosts without trying. But this will be possible for everyone, even NPCs(if I ran it, that is).
In fact, many of my character concepts rely on luck, which is rarely a factor in D&D (I've found that DM's are willing to help me out here).

Also, for those still in question as to why charisma=luck, consider the Legendary Leader PrC, a class that is virtually charisma oriented, gets Luck bonuses, and Heroic Success (instantly succeed on a save roll 1/day: they get lucky alot). Bards are a class that I would regard as exceptionally lucky as well (iconically anyway).
Max Octavious Xavier
09-23-06, 10:06 AM Once per day per four character levels (minimum 0), you may add your Charisma modifer to any d20 roll. If you have a negative Charisma modifier, there is a 5% chance for any d20 roll for which you would be unable to take ten that you take your charisma modifer as a penalty to your roll. I like the basic concept of CHR as luck :thumbsup: but I think that mechanic is a little much. 1/day/4 levels is too often and the penalty for a negative CHR makes for too many rolls.
I would drop the penalty part and make the positive bonus 1/session. Then tell your players that CHR is the luck stat, so if you ever need a luck roll (no plot/plan survives contact with a player :) ), just give them a CHR roll. Finally, I might add some feats for CHR. Swashbuckling Adventures from AEG has some interesting ideas. I do like the flavor of Bards being lucky. :w00t:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlaineTog 09-22-06, 05:30 PM	Ok, so I've this idea for a way to make Charisma useful to everyone, but it needs sanding (as it stands, it's somewhat inelegant). Once per day per four character levels (minimum 0), you may add your Charisma modifer to any d20 roll. If you have a negative Charisma modifier, there is a 5% chance for any d20 roll for which you would be unable to take ten that you take your charisma modifer as a penalty to your roll. Now, this does mean an extra roll, but it's just a quick unmodified d20 roll; if it lands on 1, you're penalized. Thoughts? Other than "leave Charisma be," preferably, as I'd really rather like some help making the idea workable than just ignoring the problem with Charisma altogether.
bassist33333 09-22-06, 05:36 PM	Why? A. Charisma doesn't really apply to luck; it's personality. B. It would make some classes who are dependent on Charisma as a main attribute (Sorcerers, Bards, etc.) more powerful while others who thought it as a throw-away skill less powerful, since it'd make them more MAD (multiple-attribute-dependent) which would just disrupt all the balances there. C. There's already a "luck" representative, and that's the three save throws you get. D. It's not necessary, and it'd be just a meaningless roll that disrupts the balance. Also there's no "problem with Charisma." People just like to complain and pretend that there is one. As an attribute, I've always found it fine where it is. Sorry for being pessimistic. <_< ~Bass'-ist.
Neutronium_Dragon 09-22-06, 05:56 PM	Hmm. Rather than dealing with an intrinsic which just adds more complexity (and a lot of added rolling with the penalty), how about a feat? -- "Ace Rimmer Emulation" Benefit: Once per day per point of Charisma bonus, you may add a +1 Luck bonus to any attack, save, skill check, or ability check. -- There. Nice and straightforward and it doesn't create too much additional work during gameplay.
BlaineTog 09-22-06, 08:00 PM	A. Charisma doesn't really apply to luck; it's personality.In movies and literature (ie some of the big source materials for D&D), strong personality and luck are very often tied very closely together. B. It would make some classes who are dependent on Charisma as a main attribute (Sorcerers, Bards, etc.) more powerful while others who thought it as a throw-away skill less powerful, since it'd make them more MAD (multiple-attribute-dependent) which would just disrupt all the balances there.Undoubtable. However, why is this necessarily bad? And why should the classes that want to dump charisma get away with having a free dump stat while the Sorcerer and Bard can't dump anything without paying in one way or another. C. There's already a "luck" representative, and that's the three save throws you get.No, your saving throws represent how good you are at resisting verious effects. The d20 roll represents the randomness of combat, neither working for or against you. Luck itself is only rarely represented. D. It's not necessary, and it'd be just a meaningless roll that disrupts the balance. Also there's no "problem with Charisma." People just like to complain and pretend that there is one. As an attribute, I've always found it fine where it is.I believe I said something in the original post about this. But in any case, there is a problem with Charisma. Compare it with any other attribute. If you were a sorcerer and you were given the option to use any attribute you wanted for your casting stat, would you choose Charisma? Even excluding the physical ones, wouldn't you much prefer Int (for the skill points and bonus to Spellcraft) or Wisdom (for the Will save bonus) to Charisma (which, uh, adds to skills, just like all the other ones, and helps if you use Charm Person or Charm Monster, all of two spells)? @Neutronium_Dragon, Yes, one could do that. That would also not make Charisma any more useful. The feat may or may not be balanced, but it doesn't answer the design goal.
aotrscommander 09-22-06, 08:09 PM	Interesting idea. Not one I'd use myself, but even so. how about, instaed of making a gratuitous roll for when your penalty is applied, the DM instead chooses when to apply it? Actually, you could go the whole hog and say you can apply your positive char bonus as a penalty to a roll you opponent makes instead of a bonus to you (or vice versa for a negative one).
Neutronium_Dragon 09-22-06, 08:35 PM	Mr. Sorcerer with the super-Cha has a much easier time using a number of other spells, too - especially the Planar Binding ones, if he cares to go that route. (They're Cha-check based.) But really, this is trying to solve a problem that isn't. Every class has a dump stat and every class has a stat or two which they really want. A sorcerer can dump Str or Wis with little problem just like a fighter can dump Cha. All ability scores are not created equal within the context of a given class and they're not meant to be equally valuable (or in some cases, valuable at all) to every class.
Artector 09-22-06, 08:39 PM	I'd keep it KISS. Apply your charisma on one roll a day per point of charisma, negative charisma doesn't grant you this benefit. And the problem I see with charisma is inherent in the point buy being so low, you can't play that diverse a character :/
Silverthumb128 09-22-06, 10:08 PM	I kind of like the idea. Personally, I'd give this a time limitation between uses. And it makes me think that Halflings could drop the +1 bonus to saves in favor of getting a +1 bonus to this check. I don't think that this would force MAD upon everyone, because basically, not everyone has to be lucky, you can still be good without being lucky. Its just that Charisma-based classes will be getting boosts without trying. But this will be possible for everyone, even NPCs(if I ran it, that is). At the least, this could be a cool ability for a PrC, if it doesn't fly as a general rule.
BlaineTog 09-22-06, 10:40 PM	I don't think that this would force MAD upon everyone, because basically, not everyone has to be lucky, you can still be good without being lucky.Ok first, everyone already has MAD if you consider this MAD. Second, yes, you can be good without being lucky. You can also have a strong personality without being extremely beautiful, and you can likewise be extremely beautiful without having a strong personality. Charisma is already amorphous. A little more is hardly out of line. Its just that Charisma-based classes will be getting boosts without trying. But this will be possible for everyone, even NPCs(if I ran it, that is).Cha-based classes'll get a boost, but it seems only fair, given that they had to stress Charisma. I'd keep it KISS. Apply your charisma on one roll a day per point of charisma, negative charisma doesn't grant you this benefit.Yeah, but that's not in keeping with the way ability scores work. They help you if they're high and hurt you if they're low.
Artector 09-22-06, 10:41 PM	At the least, this could be a cool ability for a PrC, if it doesn't fly as a general rule. There's already the fatespinner. Even though that's fate and not luck it comes to the same thing.
ArcTan 09-22-06, 10:52 PM	In movies and literature (ie some of the big source materials for D&D), strong personality and luck are very often tied very closely together. "We are TOO PRETTY to die!"
theotherdraxen 09-22-06, 11:08 PM	Ok, so I've this idea for a way to make Charisma useful to everyone, but it needs sanding (as it stands, it's somewhat inelegant). Once per day per four character levels (minimum 0), you may add your Charisma modifer to any d20 roll. If you have a negative Charisma modifier, there is a 5% chance for any d20 roll for which you would be unable to take ten that you take your charisma modifer as a penalty to your roll. Now, this does mean an extra roll, but it's just a quick unmodified d20 roll; if it lands on 1, you're penalized. Thoughts? Other than "leave Charisma be," preferably, as I'd really rather like some help making the idea workable than just ignoring the problem with Charisma altogether. BlaineTog, this is an excellent idea! I always play high-charisma characters, and a common theme amongst these characters is that they are incredibly lucky. Charisma is regarded as the weakest of all stats. This would help the charisma-oriented to take some of the fight back. Most stats offer something beyond a bonus: Str increases attack & damage, Dex increases AC and reflex, Con increases HP and fort, Int increases skills, Wis increases will, but Charisma confers no such solid bonus. This is why most power-gamers will choose to dump charisma (and then proceed to complain about how over powered social skills are). Although allowing it to apply to any roll seems a little unusual to me. I almost imagine a 'luck save' (applies to all spells that don't normally allow a save, saying that the caster fumbles the spell?) of some kind, but I don't know. I don't think that this would force MAD upon everyone, because basically, not everyone has to be lucky, you can still be good without being lucky. Its just that Charisma-based classes will be getting boosts without trying. But this will be possible for everyone, even NPCs(if I ran it, that is). In fact, many of my character concepts rely on luck, which is rarely a factor in D&D (I've found that DM's are willing to help me out here). Also, for those still in question as to why charisma=luck, consider the Legendary Leader PrC, a class that is virtually charisma oriented, gets Luck bonuses, and Heroic Success (instantly succeed on a save roll 1/day: they get lucky alot). Bards are a class that I would regard as exceptionally lucky as well (iconically anyway).
Max Octavious Xavier 09-23-06, 10:06 AM	Once per day per four character levels (minimum 0), you may add your Charisma modifer to any d20 roll. If you have a negative Charisma modifier, there is a 5% chance for any d20 roll for which you would be unable to take ten that you take your charisma modifer as a penalty to your roll. I like the basic concept of CHR as luck :thumbsup: but I think that mechanic is a little much. 1/day/4 levels is too often and the penalty for a negative CHR makes for too many rolls. I would drop the penalty part and make the positive bonus 1/session. Then tell your players that CHR is the luck stat, so if you ever need a luck roll (no plot/plan survives contact with a player :) ), just give them a CHR roll. Finally, I might add some feats for CHR. Swashbuckling Adventures from AEG has some interesting ideas. I do like the flavor of Bards being lucky. :w00t: