Post/Author/DateTime	Post
11d7 02-05-05, 06:16 PM	Ok so I was thinking ealier about this and was wondering. Charisma is Strength of Character and Personality right? Skills its used for: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff and Disguise. I understand how it works for Intimidate, Bluff and Disguise but Diplomacy I find to be to relitive to use it for. Since diplomacy is influencing others to makes people with high Cha better at it however it doesnt take into account what context its being used in. I persoanly get sick of and want to shot with hammers people who act like those with 'high charisma' act. The minipulative type who I can see right through but others let influence them. However by D&D rules I have to 'like' or have 'freindly status' towards or 'take risk to help' these people if they try to influence me with the broken diplomacy skill. Sure you could say that the check repusents them blackmailing me into helping them but that would be more of a Bluff or Intimadate thing than diplomacy and still doesnt account for the 'freindly status' towards them thing, I would still 'wish them harm'. Also what one race finds convicing and nice another might find terrable and discusting. Like on startrek the Tellarites (sp?) show respect by insulting eachother, constantly. Differnt races have differnt mind sets. This is even more set off by Humans being the defulto blank stale all other races are modfied from because a Dwarf has lower Cha than a human....so what to a human they have low cha what out to themselves or Gnomes or Assimar? Compaired to them how would they be veiwed? Charisma for some of its uses in D&D isn't fit for them becuase the entire concept is relitive, what one race or even culture might find positive another might find negative or feel indifernt about. At minus -2 cha dwarves are stereotyped as being more rough around the edges than humans. Well guess what, what if someone likes people like that, will they still get penaties when dealing with them? By the core rules yes. Also withthe way Diplomacy works a High Cha Bard is more likly to convice a person of something with a illconceved plan they drew on a napkin with ketchup than a high Int Wizard who took weeks if not months to make the alternate plan. I can understand the Strength of personality part intierly, I just dont see all of its uses crossing the speicies barrer without alot of work.
Seeker95 02-05-05, 08:43 PM	It crosses the species barrier, but that doesn't mean it is enough to overcome the penalties that crossing the species barrier already provide. The DM is supposed to create DCs on the basis of the realities in his or her world. An elf with a high charisma still isn't going to get very far with a drow. And nobody is going to get too far with an aboleth. Using "just roll the dice" doesn't work in any game. Charisma modifiers simply make this more obvious that the other stats.
Thorak 02-05-05, 10:05 PM	Also, charisma and, especially, ranks in the social skills doesn't mean you become a smarmy manipulative type. If your target will get offended by that kind of crap, you'll realize that and present yourself as a just-folks type. If they're antagonistic to anyone controlling them, then you'll start the conversation condemning the kinds of people they hate. Manipulation is a LOT more subtle and intricate than you think. A good manipulator can get anyone to do what they want, and like it. Regardless of who their audience is. A politician who consistently gets pushed forward because he obviously has rich friends and their support isn't doing a good job. If he convinces the people he's on their side, while at the same time convincing the wealthy few that his plans will benefit them, he's being diplomatic and charismatic. Sure, neither position is necessarily true, but all that matters is convincing people that it is. You don't do that by being overtly manipulative, you do that by making yourself seem like someone your audience would like, and then showing how (whether you lie or not) what you want them to do is good, and/or a necessary evil that will benefit them in the future.
11d7 02-06-05, 09:55 AM	I see what your saying Thorak however the the fact they can do this with 3 Int, 4 Wis and 18 Cha that boths me. Someone that stupid should not know how to do thoses things effectivly just becuase they would otherwise be able to because the 18 Cha. Sure if you inforce RPing it will work becuase that would be Impossable to play however I know lot of DMs who doesnt force RPing and I know thats just bad DMing but it should be in the core rules a way to force DMs to atleast do that properly. I have seen a character with these stats: Str 12, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 4, Cha 18 allowed to be played (at a level of around 10 Int and Wis) and I left the group soon after becuase how broken it was. They used the Cha based skills at most all maxed out but realisticly they should not have been smart enouph to convince anyone of anything becuase they are barly above animal intellegence. The core rules need a way to stop bad DMing in this regard.
Thorak 02-06-05, 02:52 PM	I see what your saying Thorak however the the fact they can do this with 3 Int, 4 Wis and 18 Cha that boths me. Someone that stupid should not know how to do thoses things effectivly just becuase they would otherwise be able to because the 18 Cha. Sure if you inforce RPing it will work becuase that would be Impossable to play however I know lot of DMs who doesnt force RPing and I know thats just bad DMing but it should be in the core rules a way to force DMs to atleast do that properly. I have seen a character with these stats: Str 12, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 4, Cha 18 allowed to be played (at a level of around 10 Int and Wis) and I left the group soon after becuase how broken it was. They used the Cha based skills at most all maxed out but realisticly they should not have been smart enouph to convince anyone of anything becuase they are barly above animal intellegence. The core rules need a way to stop bad DMing in this regard. Can Jessica Simpson get people to love her music and worship her enough to watch her reality TV show? Even though she's apparently dumb as a post and lacking in the common sense to tell fish from chicken? While the character you describe would be even stupider the Mrs. Simpson, she sets a good example. It doesn't have to be intricately planned, charisma just reflects force of presence and how you make people notice and want to help you. Maybe it's out of respect, maybe it's out of fear, and in the case of someone ridiculously stupid, maybe it's out of pity. Maybe he gets people to do things by failing so miserably at them, but seeming to be trying so hard, that they pity the poor bugger and decide to give him a hand. That's charisma. If he lacked it, they'd either sneer at the idiot who's so incompetent, or not even notice his fumbling. In a more general way, keep a rolled-up newspaper handy. When someone introduces a character like this, thwap them upside the head while saying, sternly "No! Bad munchkin! Down!"
Escef 02-06-05, 05:14 PM	Diplomacy isn't neccesarily about being conniving. Sometimes it is just the difference between saying "Do this, now." and "Can you please do this?". The first is a demand, the second a request. A request is diplomatic, a demand is asking for trouble. Diplomacy is also about knowing how to show a little respect, despite cultural differences. Diplomacy is used spareingly amonst people who are familiar with each other, say from daily association. Diplomacy is largely used when you first meet someone, to make a good impression. And, yes, the human mindset is used as the standard. This is largely because it is the only thing we actually have to go by. Does anyone really know what it's like to be an elf and have a childhood that lasts longer than a human lifespan?
Soichiro Arima 02-06-05, 07:07 PM	Does anyone really know what it's like to be an elf and have a childhood that lasts longer than a human lifespan? Longer infact! So there :P