Charisma not Comliness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charisma not Comliness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Yade
08-24-04, 05:02 AM I am working with a good friend of mine and he cannot get the idea out of his head that charisma is not just about comliness. I would like to hear some of your suggestions on how to explain the new use of charisma. The PHB has some good examples but it has not sparked the flame of recognition in his eyes yet.

Thanks so much for your time and creativity
q'afuu
08-24-04, 06:09 AM Beholder: Cha 15.
Harpy: Cha 17.

Does either of those two strike anyone as particularly comely? I guess not.

Cha is about asserting yourself. It's about how you affect the world around you merely by your presence. Comeliness will enter into that (someone with high Cha will probably be attractive, if not necessarily in a classical 'beautiful' way, to creatures with the right esthetic norms) but is only a part of it at best. It can't be an integral, consistent part of it since different kinds of beings have wildly varying sets of esthetic norms.

If you friend wants to know what Cha means, just let him look at what Cha does: which kinds of skills it applies to, how it powers spontaneous arcane casting, how it sets save DCs for many special monster attacks and abilities, turning.
Twisted Puppy
08-24-04, 11:58 AM Look at it this way: Adolf Hitler had a Charisma score of 20+, and was unlikely to ever be considered for the cover of GQ.:teach:
WraithXIII
08-24-04, 01:08 PM Like the guy above said, you could have a person who is physically beautiful, but might have the manners of an orc. There is definitely a difference between the two aspects of a person. We have all known a hot woman who was a total...yeah(COM: 19, CHA: 10). And then there was the person who would win no beauty contests, but they had a heart of gold and everyone gravitated towards them(COM: 10, CHA: 19). Those two abilities do not go hand in hand, as much as some might believe they do.

There were times when we actually made a COM "Ability" score, and we had some interesting characters, especially with a large margin between the two scores. If this doesn't convince your friend, nothing really will.
The Philosopher King
08-31-04, 08:37 AM Charisma is difficult to define. You'll have to excuse any psychobabble that creeps into this post, but I'm currently writing a thesis about charismatic leadership.
:teach:
'Charisma' is Greek for 'gift of grace', referring initially (well, in terms of written sources) to the gift of divine grace granted by God (Romans 12 I think if you feel an urge to look it up).
In essence, people perceive an individual who has a certain constellation of traits and behaviours and on that basis attribute them "charisma". These traits include (but are not limited to): excellent oratorical and public speaking ability, energy, unconventional expertise, articulation of an idealised vision which is in some way opposed to the status quo, high levels of self-confidence and commitment to their vision and mission, and - usually - success, by which they prove that they are the 'God-willed master', to quote Max Weber (I think). By means of these and other behaviours, the charismatic is able to inspire his/her followers to perform beyond expectations, and to win over others to their cause and value-system.

That's a short overview of current theory, anyway.
Probably doesn't help though, does it?
hmm...

Charisma does not require looking 'hawt' any more than being any other sort of leader does. Charisma exists in the attribution more than in the person. It's about causing others to accept and follow one's mission and vision sheerly through force of self. It's a type of authority based on emotions rather than on any rational/legal basis.

People follow the charismatic not out of tradition or self-interest or logic, but because they believe in the leader. They want to follow because the leader is an extraordinary person, gifted with seemingly magical abilities and inspiring greatness.

Actually, that's sort of one way to put it: it's about authority, not looks.
TheGreenGriffon
08-31-04, 07:09 PM The only real way to handle the players inability to register Charisma and Comliness is to bring back the infamous 7th stat itself. Roll it after all the other stats are assigned so the players dont get a free 7th roll they can desigante anywhere and if you wish you can adjust the roll by your charisma modifier as Charisma does play a roll such as Hygiene, grooming and style.
Random bloke
08-31-04, 07:27 PM As noted - not only do monsters have high charisma, but it's treated the same way for every race.

You can bet that the Illthid standard of beauty is not a Larry Elmore Elf. But, if the Elf has a lot of personality, (insert Pulp Fiction reference here) the Illthids get it, same as the aboleths...

It's still stupid, but less stupid then if you treat charisma as appearance.
TMPikachu
08-31-04, 10:49 PM comliness should be treated like alignment, generated at the beginning of the game, up to the PC to decide what it is, changable, and viewed favorably or negatively by different individuals.
q'afuu
09-01-04, 07:51 AM comliness should be treated like alignment, generated at the beginning of the game, up to the PC to decide what it is, changable, and viewed favorably or negatively by different individuals.That would make it dependent on Cha. ;) Let's face it, Comeliness has no effect on your Cha but the reverse is absolutely true. Or, to be more precise, Cha doesn't affect your Comeliness itself, but affects just about everything Comeliness does.
memberZ
09-01-04, 08:02 AM I bring back the good old 7th stat on occasion.
It usually is when a fighter type dumps a 6 into Chr and makes a blanket statement of " It's OK my character is just a little ugly and has a scar on his face!". To my twisted mind that just makes you more attractive to half-orcs not less attractive to all.

So after all other stats are fixed I make them roll Comb.(3d6 +Chr mod drop the lowest)
okaynowa
09-01-04, 08:39 AM I always explain low Charisma as low self-esteem, inarticulateness, shyness, or any other socially awkward quality. I've always found physical deformity a weak (not to mention inaccurate) excuse for a low Charisma score. Remember the Phantom of the Opera was the very definition of a charmer... or, if you want a less dramatic example, Humphrey Bogart in "Casablanca" (why would Mrs. Lazlo choose a guy with such a hang-dog look? Charisma).
Long time gamer
09-01-04, 10:46 AM For some reason my post on this subject did not transfer over to the new board format. :confused:

So I will repost the dictionary findings I found on line on the meaning of Charisma and Comeliness.

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

CHARIMA

1 : an extraordinary power (as of healing) given a Christian by the Holy Spirit for the good of the church
2 a : a personal magic of leadership arousing special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for a public figure (as a political leader) b : a special magnetic charm or appeal <the charisma of a popular actor>

COMELY (Noun; Comeliness)

1 : pleasurably conforming to notions of good appearance, suitability, or proportion
2 : having a pleasing appearance : not homely or plain
synonym see BEAUTIFUL
Xixt412
09-01-04, 11:17 AM Try keeping it simple.

Charisma=people skills

The simplicity of this explaination makes it more effective than talking about great leaders and Greek "gifts of grace"
Lord Arkhaven
09-01-04, 11:39 AM The honest truth of is that good looks enhance one's grace, and thus can contribute to explain one's Charisma score. Presidents who have been though of as good looking (like Clinton and Kennedy) receive an extra bit of adoration from the masses. Attractive people tend to become leaders (though there are of course exceptions.)

Too concur with the others in this thread, a high Charisma character may have a weather-worn and battle-scarred face, but also has piercing eyes that lock you in place when they gaze at you, or a deep booming voice that isn't used often but can silence a room. A high Charisma half-orc will still have some ugly orc traits, but they might cut an imposing silohette that harkens back to a savage, primative majesty.

On the other hand a high Charisma character could look like Angellina Jolie fighting evil in a bikini or Brad Pitt in Fight Club.

Bascially a person with an 18 Charisma can be devestatingly beautiful, or not. I think it's up to the player to decide.
Random bloke
09-01-04, 01:27 PM Bascially a person with an 18 Charisma can be devestatingly beautiful, or not. I think it's up to the player to decide.Much like INT, depends on what they can RP. The proverbial Comic Shop Guy would find it easier to declare his character is a supermodel then to roleplay an extemely friendly and non-obnoxious person.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yade 08-24-04, 05:02 AM	I am working with a good friend of mine and he cannot get the idea out of his head that charisma is not just about comliness. I would like to hear some of your suggestions on how to explain the new use of charisma. The PHB has some good examples but it has not sparked the flame of recognition in his eyes yet. Thanks so much for your time and creativity
q'afuu 08-24-04, 06:09 AM	Beholder: Cha 15. Harpy: Cha 17. Does either of those two strike anyone as particularly comely? I guess not. Cha is about asserting yourself. It's about how you affect the world around you merely by your presence. Comeliness will enter into that (someone with high Cha will probably be attractive, if not necessarily in a classical 'beautiful' way, to creatures with the right esthetic norms) but is only a part of it at best. It can't be an integral, consistent part of it since different kinds of beings have wildly varying sets of esthetic norms. If you friend wants to know what Cha means, just let him look at what Cha does: which kinds of skills it applies to, how it powers spontaneous arcane casting, how it sets save DCs for many special monster attacks and abilities, turning.
Twisted Puppy 08-24-04, 11:58 AM	Look at it this way: Adolf Hitler had a Charisma score of 20+, and was unlikely to ever be considered for the cover of GQ.:teach:
WraithXIII 08-24-04, 01:08 PM	Like the guy above said, you could have a person who is physically beautiful, but might have the manners of an orc. There is definitely a difference between the two aspects of a person. We have all known a hot woman who was a total...yeah(COM: 19, CHA: 10). And then there was the person who would win no beauty contests, but they had a heart of gold and everyone gravitated towards them(COM: 10, CHA: 19). Those two abilities do not go hand in hand, as much as some might believe they do. There were times when we actually made a COM "Ability" score, and we had some interesting characters, especially with a large margin between the two scores. If this doesn't convince your friend, nothing really will.
The Philosopher King 08-31-04, 08:37 AM	Charisma is difficult to define. You'll have to excuse any psychobabble that creeps into this post, but I'm currently writing a thesis about charismatic leadership. :teach: 'Charisma' is Greek for 'gift of grace', referring initially (well, in terms of written sources) to the gift of divine grace granted by God (Romans 12 I think if you feel an urge to look it up). In essence, people perceive an individual who has a certain constellation of traits and behaviours and on that basis attribute them "charisma". These traits include (but are not limited to): excellent oratorical and public speaking ability, energy, unconventional expertise, articulation of an idealised vision which is in some way opposed to the status quo, high levels of self-confidence and commitment to their vision and mission, and - usually - success, by which they prove that they are the 'God-willed master', to quote Max Weber (I think). By means of these and other behaviours, the charismatic is able to inspire his/her followers to perform beyond expectations, and to win over others to their cause and value-system. That's a short overview of current theory, anyway. Probably doesn't help though, does it? hmm... Charisma does not require looking 'hawt' any more than being any other sort of leader does. Charisma exists in the attribution more than in the person. It's about causing others to accept and follow one's mission and vision sheerly through force of self. It's a type of authority based on emotions rather than on any rational/legal basis. People follow the charismatic not out of tradition or self-interest or logic, but because they believe in the leader. They want to follow because the leader is an extraordinary person, gifted with seemingly magical abilities and inspiring greatness. Actually, that's sort of one way to put it: it's about authority, not looks.
TheGreenGriffon 08-31-04, 07:09 PM	The only real way to handle the players inability to register Charisma and Comliness is to bring back the infamous 7th stat itself. Roll it after all the other stats are assigned so the players dont get a free 7th roll they can desigante anywhere and if you wish you can adjust the roll by your charisma modifier as Charisma does play a roll such as Hygiene, grooming and style.
Random bloke 08-31-04, 07:27 PM	As noted - not only do monsters have high charisma, but it's treated the same way for every race. You can bet that the Illthid standard of beauty is not a Larry Elmore Elf. But, if the Elf has a lot of personality, (insert Pulp Fiction reference here) the Illthids get it, same as the aboleths... It's still stupid, but less stupid then if you treat charisma as appearance.
TMPikachu 08-31-04, 10:49 PM	comliness should be treated like alignment, generated at the beginning of the game, up to the PC to decide what it is, changable, and viewed favorably or negatively by different individuals.
q'afuu 09-01-04, 07:51 AM	comliness should be treated like alignment, generated at the beginning of the game, up to the PC to decide what it is, changable, and viewed favorably or negatively by different individuals.That would make it dependent on Cha. ;) Let's face it, Comeliness has no effect on your Cha but the reverse is absolutely true. Or, to be more precise, Cha doesn't affect your Comeliness itself, but affects just about everything Comeliness does.
memberZ 09-01-04, 08:02 AM	I bring back the good old 7th stat on occasion. It usually is when a fighter type dumps a 6 into Chr and makes a blanket statement of " It's OK my character is just a little ugly and has a scar on his face!". To my twisted mind that just makes you more attractive to half-orcs not less attractive to all. So after all other stats are fixed I make them roll Comb.(3d6 +Chr mod drop the lowest)
okaynowa 09-01-04, 08:39 AM	I always explain low Charisma as low self-esteem, inarticulateness, shyness, or any other socially awkward quality. I've always found physical deformity a weak (not to mention inaccurate) excuse for a low Charisma score. Remember the Phantom of the Opera was the very definition of a charmer... or, if you want a less dramatic example, Humphrey Bogart in "Casablanca" (why would Mrs. Lazlo choose a guy with such a hang-dog look? Charisma).
Long time gamer 09-01-04, 10:46 AM	For some reason my post on this subject did not transfer over to the new board format. :confused: So I will repost the dictionary findings I found on line on the meaning of Charisma and Comeliness. Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary CHARIMA 1 : an extraordinary power (as of healing) given a Christian by the Holy Spirit for the good of the church 2 a : a personal magic of leadership arousing special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for a public figure (as a political leader) b : a special magnetic charm or appeal <the charisma of a popular actor> COMELY (Noun; Comeliness) 1 : pleasurably conforming to notions of good appearance, suitability, or proportion 2 : having a pleasing appearance : not homely or plain synonym see BEAUTIFUL
Xixt412 09-01-04, 11:17 AM	Try keeping it simple. Charisma=people skills The simplicity of this explaination makes it more effective than talking about great leaders and Greek "gifts of grace"
Lord Arkhaven 09-01-04, 11:39 AM	The honest truth of is that good looks enhance one's grace, and thus can contribute to explain one's Charisma score. Presidents who have been though of as good looking (like Clinton and Kennedy) receive an extra bit of adoration from the masses. Attractive people tend to become leaders (though there are of course exceptions.) Too concur with the others in this thread, a high Charisma character may have a weather-worn and battle-scarred face, but also has piercing eyes that lock you in place when they gaze at you, or a deep booming voice that isn't used often but can silence a room. A high Charisma half-orc will still have some ugly orc traits, but they might cut an imposing silohette that harkens back to a savage, primative majesty. On the other hand a high Charisma character could look like Angellina Jolie fighting evil in a bikini or Brad Pitt in Fight Club. Bascially a person with an 18 Charisma can be devestatingly beautiful, or not. I think it's up to the player to decide.
Random bloke 09-01-04, 01:27 PM	Bascially a person with an 18 Charisma can be devestatingly beautiful, or not. I think it's up to the player to decide.Much like INT, depends on what they can RP. The proverbial Comic Shop Guy would find it easier to declare his character is a supermodel then to roleplay an extemely friendly and non-obnoxious person.