Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sombrus 01-08-06, 11:24 AM	Charisma must be the most useless of all ability scores. Seriously. It bolsters all of about 8 skills (so does intelligence, not including the knowledge skills). After that, most classes can completely forget about Charisma. Sorcerors need it as a primary ability score, Bards need it as a secondary ability score (possibly first)... and Paladins, Clerics, well they need it....sorta. Compare that with strength... which could be considered the primary ability score for what... four classes, as well as being useful for a good number of feats and skills? But, enough of my ranting... here's the purpose of this thread. I would like anyone and everyone to list as many Charisma based selectable feats as possible. For now, we'll keep things broad. All this requires is that the feat have a prereq of 13 Cha or more. That's it, that's all. Even if the Feat has other requirements. So long as it requires a smidge of Charisma, I'd like to hear about it. However, in the interests of sanity, let's restrict this to non-epic feats only. I don't think I'll get a single reply to this concerning "cha" based feats... we'll see
Kresalak 01-08-06, 12:09 PM	Divine Metamagic? Divine Anything? Leadership? This was just from memory.
Pandaemoni 01-08-06, 12:16 PM	Plus, Charisma bolsters Diplomacy and Bluff, two of the most broken skills ever under the RAW if you can get your total skill modifier high enough. Admittedly, if you are not playing a Bard (where I do think it is the primary ability score, both spells and certain musical effects are keyed on it), Sorcerer or other base class that uses it to determine spell casting ability, then it is generally the throwaway stat of choice. That said, keep in mind that your DM should be rolling a Diplomacy/Charisma check every time you ever interact with an NPC to determine its mood. You could return to the king after having slain the dragon for him, only to discover that he's weaseling out of giving you your reward...because he just plain doesn't like you. In my experience, though, DMs only role Diplomacy checks when someone with a good Diplomacy score is on hand.
Kyuketsukiouji 01-08-06, 12:59 PM	Book of Vile Darkness: Verminfriend Dark Speech Book of Exalted Deeds: Words of Creation Sanctify Martial Strike Sanctify Ki Strike Ranged Smite Attack (indirectly, since it's based on Smite Evil) Quell the Proface (Cha used in the DC calculation) Nymph's Kiss (All Cha checks gain bonus) Holy Radiance Holy Ki Strike Hands of a Healer Gift Of Grace (indirectly, since it's based on Divine Grace) Fist of the Heavens (via Sanctify Ki Strike Prereq) Exalted Turning (indirectly, since it's based on Turn Undead) Exalted Smite (indirectly, since it's based on Smite Evil) Animal Friend Epic Level Handbook Deafening Song (Cha used in the DC calculation) Epic Inspiration Epic Leadership Familiar Spell (if the character is a sorcerer) Great Charisma Great Smite Holy Strike (indirectly, since it's based on Smite Evil) Improved Aura of Courage Improved Aura of Despair Incite Rage Legendary Commander Music of the Gods Negative Energy Burst Planar Turning Positive Energy Aura Undead Mastery Unholy Strike (indirectly, since it's based on Smite Good) Widen Aura of Courage Widen Aura of Despair Zone of Animation Complete Arcane Draconic Breath (Cha used in the DC calculation) Draconic Presence (Cha used in the DC calculation) Necropolis Born (Cha used in the DC calculation) Night Haunt (Cha used in the DC calculation) Soul of the North (Cha used in the DC calculation) Spell Hand (Cha used in the DC calculation)
darkness ninja of light 01-08-06, 01:08 PM	You've got to be kidding me. At first I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic or not, but it doesn't seem so. Anyways for the life of me I can't find my PHB, I think my cat might be sleeping on it. Instead I checked in some of the other books I had and there wasn't a SINGLE feats list that DIDN'T have a charisma-based feat. I also remembered that there was Goad and Force of Personality right off the top of my head. By Charisma-based feat I mean REQUIRING a certain charisma to take it (though there were even more that a high Charisma would make very potent). I divided the list up based on general, class, and race based CHA feats in case you don't count class/race feats for whatever reason. You'll see there are quite a lot, and there probably is about as many CHA based feats as other attribute based feats. (these come from Eberron, Races of Stone/Destiny/Wild, Stormwrack, and Complete Adventurer) General Force of Personality Goad Undead Empathy Scourge of the Seas Class-ability based Sanctify Water Race-based Burrow Friend Clan Prestige Natural Trickster Dallah Thaun's Luck Sociable Personality Again, these are only the ones that have "CHA 13" or some other number under "requirements". It would be too easy to find feats that are empowered by charisma.
ressurrector 01-08-06, 01:17 PM	Bluff+Feint in combat+Sneak attack=High damage. Seriously, Charisma is very usefull, just generally not for straight fighter/blaster types. It also looses alot of its utility if your DM makes you roleplay encounters without regard for skills or stats (effectively making diplomacy and "face" characters useless, and making charisma far too easy to dump and get away with). As far as in game, Charisma can dictate how much other characters respect, like, and listen to you; this is very usefull if the DM dosen't screw it up.
Edymnion 01-08-06, 01:17 PM	And of course, the oft overlooked real purpose of Charisma. Your character's Cool Factor. A low charisma character is unpleasant to look at or be around, and is incapable of asserting themselves in group settings. I enforce that as a DM. If you've used Charisma as a dump stat, its a pretty safe bet that most NPCs will ignore you, no one will think your plans are any good, and you will all around be the most un-cool character in the game. If you want somebody that people like, respect, and will follow orders from, you need a good Charisma score. If you've got a Charisma of 5 in my game, you can expect just about everybody you meet to talk over you, ignore you, and all around treat you like an ugly little wall flower. Because, with a low Charisma, thats exactly what you are. An ugly little wall flower that no one pays attention to.
Fargren 01-08-06, 01:25 PM	The problem with Charisma is that it doesn't give any benefit excpet raising Cha-based skills. All other stats give some benefit.
MasterOfPsychic 01-08-06, 01:36 PM	And let's not forget that if the party have a sorc. and a bard, then for what would the fighter and barb use their CHA for? they don't even need to open their mouths anytime...
Kyuketsukiouji 01-08-06, 01:44 PM	And let's not forget that if the party have a sorc. and a bard, then for what would the fighter and barb use their CHA for? they don't even need to open their mouths anytime... There's a barbarian feat that requires 25 Charisma. A plenty useful one, too.
Rickiel 01-08-06, 01:47 PM	What would a fighter or barbarian open their mouth for? The answer is obvious. FOR ONE HELLUVA SOUL-JARRING BATTLE CRY! AKA: Intimidation. Wonderful skill, used it as a first level fighter and I got a group of goblins to panic. Let the slaughter begin!
green_yawgmoth 01-08-06, 03:46 PM	It's been said before, but: BLUFF. I cannot express how useful that skill alone is. In a social setting, being able to make people believe you is worth more than anything, including being able to climb, jump, swim, and swing a sword really hard, which is all str does. Also, I agree with Edy and the "cool factor". People judge you by how you carry yourself, and the prettyboy rogue with a bright smile and his head held high is going to make a much better first impression than Grognard the Fugly smelling of the funk of 40,000 years and saying "duhhhh..." every third word. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Edymnion 01-08-06, 04:08 PM	And let's not forget that if the party have a sorc. and a bard, then for what would the fighter and barb use their CHA for? they don't even need to open their mouths anytime...A fighter/barb that doesn't make full use of Intimidate is being played by an amature, plain and simple ;)
Sae Cael Oanar 01-08-06, 05:57 PM	until my current statset/character didnt allow it, i usually put my third highest stat into charisma. gotta be cool. ladies, man, ladies.
High Octane 01-08-06, 06:05 PM	Turning undead is dependant on charisma, as is most of the paladins abilities. But you have all forgot the most important charisma based feat: Leadership.
ressurrector 01-08-06, 06:08 PM	THis is why I like playing Sorcerers, and my current character ideas are sorc/monk/enlightened fist and Rogue Bluff-nut (feint in combat). Charisma makes for the most FUN skills and methods outside of magic.
Merrill_Clarke 01-08-06, 06:21 PM	(A few personal examples to help show the point in here... I'm not really listing feats because I honestly don't know that many that rely on charisma. But I will try to show why charisma doesn't NEED feats or extra things. It stands high enough on skills alone) Every character I've made in the past... year and a half has had above average charisma, and usually, it's the primary score. But that makes sense, because I typically play bards. First and foremost, as already mentioned a few times, there's the RP aspect of it. Charisma means STYLE. You've got flair, even if all you can do is cast flare. And you can use that! Well, you can use it to have fun. Seriously, that's what DnD comes down to is having fun, and being charismatic helps! In terms of gameplay, using the PHB's ruling for it, diplomacy is hands-down the most broken skill in DnD. One of my campaigns started at level 8. I played a bard that was under the delusion of being a paladin (Delusions are REALLY fun, by the way), but she was also far from violent and talked her way out of almost every fight. Had she been under the delusion of being a druid, instead, she may have even gotten out of fights with animals! All you have to do is make a rushed check (-10) and make them not hostile. Then just work them over and make them friendly, maybe even loyal, and you've got them fighting FOR you. Bluff is also incredibly useful. I'm currently playing a sorceror that has a lot of ranks in bluff, and I took the cosmopolitan feat from Forgotten Realms (Only non-core addition, so pif at you) to make disguise a class skill. So far, over half of what she's said has been a complete lie, and no one's really caught on. And in the most recent fight, the enemy saw us and even conversed a little before the fight (They had a sort of "Leave and we won't attack" attitude), but thanks to a nice bluff, my mage convinced the enemy's mage that she thought they were old friends (Having a reputation for being absent-minded helps with this). They hugged, in the way old friends do to greet each other, and the enemy got a stilled and silent vampiric touch in doing so. She then proceeded to worry about being right next to an angry samurai, but it was a good tradeoff. And since I mentioned disguise up there, this is also pretty high up there on useful skills. Going with my sorceror again, her secret to the entire party is that she is a she. Because of sexism in her order, she's been dressed as a guy since before even meeting them. It leads to a lot more of RP moments. Gameplay-wise, combined with her bluffing, she could pass as almost anyone, meaning legal freedom, getting into places she's not supposed to be, and finding out things from party members that they wouldn't otherwise tell her. To really get the best out of this, you'll have to stress to other characters that player knowledge and character knowledge don't mix. And finally, despite having no ranks in intimidate, with her high charisma, she can do a decent job of it (Better than the average level 1 fighter, at least). Ignoring the obvious benefits of intimidate, there's a nice RP aspect of it: Instead of the usual "RARR ANGRY," you can make calm, cool, collected threats. The kind that really sink in and give you a little chill, because they're so SERIOUS about it and at the same time, it's so NORMAL to them (Look below this paragraph and you'll see the treat my sorceror will be giving the enemy wizard if she makes it out of the fight alright). If you're lucky, your DM will give you a nice situational bonus for intimidation using threats such as those. Etc., etc., Annora, the enemy mage, will be tied up and Aeron, my mage, will have a dagger held near her wrists. "You're going to tell me everything you know about Avalon, or I'll see to it personally that you never cast another spell in your life. I'll multilate your hands, I'll cut out your tongue. Even if you do somehow get out of this place, your livelihood will be GONE. So! What do you know?" If I had devoted my entire life to arcane studies, even knowing that a cleric technically can bring those back, assuming one can be found, and even if wasn't the best delivered threat, that would still be quite serious, and I'd still consider saying more than intended after making a mental note to prepare more still spells in the future. Now, we'll take a 5 cha barbarian trying to intimidate in the same situation. "YARG. KRUSK SMASH PUNY WIZARD IF PUNY WIZARD NO TELL KRUSK WHERE CITY IS." Intimidating, yes, but smashing heals better than mutilation. Then, as an added bonus, with charisma you get Leadership. Seriously, it's an amazing feat. Get a bunch of level 1 followers, and give them all greataxes. Send them out. The sheer swarm will gaurantee at least a few get criticals, and that's a nice easy 3d12 damage. And that's just one of MANY possibilities! But you don't get charisma for the feats. You don't get it for those kick-in-the-door adventures, either. You get it because characters have their own lives when they're not off adventuring, and as a rule of thumb, really ugly people don't have very nice lives! So, strength can have its attack rolls, its weight, it's melee damage. No one needs those when you're a smooth talker. Dexterity can have its AC bonus and its reflex bonus. Your words give more AC than any dodge modifier. Constitution has that HP I hate to give up, as well as the fortitude bonus, but I can go without it. Who'd try to poison me, after all? I'm loved! Intelligence-- Pfft, who needs that? It's all an "I know more than you do" bluff, anyway. Wisdom, what a waste it'd be to be wise. They have no fun-- Too serious, too stubborn, those that can't be swayed to new ideas. But charisma... it's just too COOL not to take.
Chimaera2000 01-08-06, 06:41 PM	The single easiest and most effective fix for Charisma I've seen so far is to have Charisma as the ability score for Will saves and Wisdom as the ability score for Initiative. It achieves stat balance mechanically (increases Charisma, keeps Wisdom about the same, and decreases Dexterity), while still making sense flavor-wise, since Charisma represents force of personality and Wisdom represents quick thinking. Some might grumble that not having one's reflexes (Dexterity) factored into Initiative might not make as much sense from a flavor perspective, but it's a necessary evil.
General_Ridley 01-08-06, 07:13 PM	Charisma isn't totally useless, in fact, it's the only score a Dread Necromancer even needs.
Bruunwald 01-09-06, 01:38 PM	Turning undead is dependant on charisma, as is most of the paladins abilities... As well as some of the Samurai's special abilities. And sorcerers aren't the only spellcasters who base their spells off of it: warmages do, and warlocks need it for their abilities as well. But getting back to turning undead, which was the purpose of my own reply, the OP acts like this is an inconsequential ability. I can personally vouch for the power of a good cleric with plenty of Charisma and how he saved the party's hide more than once with a massive turning check. Scratch that: how he personally turned the tide of battle with a single standard action and a nice, high Charisma.
Rocketboy13 01-09-06, 08:12 PM	The single easiest and most effective fix for Charisma I've seen so far is to have Charisma as the ability score for Will saves and Wisdom as the ability score for Initiative. It achieves stat balance mechanically (increases Charisma, keeps Wisdom about the same, and decreases Dexterity), while still making sense flavor-wise, since Charisma represents force of personality and Wisdom represents quick thinking. Some might grumble that not having one's reflexes (Dexterity) factored into Initiative might not make as much sense from a flavor perspective, but it's a necessary evil. I use this too, but I just make charisma the stat that determines initiative. I would do it entirely your way but the attention span of my players is to short to remember multiple rules changes. :rolleyes:
psychic_infinity 01-09-06, 09:04 PM	There are a lot of non-PHB classes that rely on Charisma: Wilder (XPH) Dread Necromancer (HoH) Warmage (CA) Warlock (CA) Shugenja (CD) Favored Soul (CD) Hexblade (CW) I'm sure there are more...but I can't think of any more right now. There is one major problem with Charisma since it's really only useful to classes that need it, and it's an overlooked one. "Focus your attacks on the one with the highest charisma score; he has to have powerful spellcasting abilities! Why else would he have a high charisma score?"
devinmdp 01-09-06, 09:56 PM	Charisma can be the most versitile and useful stat in the game...if you build for it. Seriously, I even wrote about it in Redgar's Repository. I know from experience. I designed my current 10th level Living Greyhawk character entirely from ground up with the intent to see how far I could stretch every possible use out of a high Charisma. It's really quite easy as long as you take a class with access to Divine Feats (and that merely requires a single level of Cleric or a few levels of Paladin). My PC is 10th level. He has a 21 Charisma (thanks to a cloak of charisma +2). He is a Paladin for the most part, with a single level of Marshal. My Charisma gives me: a +5 bonus to all saves (paladin Divine Grace) a +5 bonus to AC (Divine Shield feat) a +5 attack bonus (when using Smite Good) a +5 damage bonus (Divine Might feat) a +5 bonus to Will saves to me and all allies within 60 ft (Marshal minor aura) the ability to heal 5 hp of damage per level (paladin Lay on Hands) In addition, it increases the duration of a feat that grants me +20 hp and +10 Spd. All this in addition to providing bonuses to some pretty useful skills, mainly Diplomacy and Gather Information. With the build of my character, I would much rather get an Eagle's Splendour than any of the other stat-boosting spells cast on me, since every +1 Charisma bonus protects me, gives me more healing, and lets me hit harder. No other single stat can provide such a wide swath of benefits. A couple can multitask, but none comes close to the versitility of Charisma. Devin