Charnel Touch & Multiple Attacks. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charnel Touch & Multiple Attacks. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
krocha
09-17-06, 07:55 PM Can a Dread Necromancer use their Charnel Touch attack in conjunction with a normal attack?

For example, lets say the DN had a BAB of +6. Could they use one attack to delivernel the Charnel Touch and then the other to make a weapon attack? Can it be used as an off-hand attack (either primary or secondaty)?
claypigeons
09-17-06, 09:12 PM "... at will, but no more than once per round..."

So it is stated in the Dread Necromancer rules...
krocha
09-17-06, 09:37 PM "... at will, but no more than once per round..."

So it is stated in the Dread Necromancer rules...

Right, so does that mean it cam be combined with another weapons attack?
claypigeons
09-17-06, 09:44 PM Right, so does that mean it cam be combined with another weapons attack?

It's not a weapon attack to begin with. It's a melee touch attack that deals negative damage*. You can use it once per round...

*If you take Tomb Tainted Soul from Libris Mortis, you can heal yourself infinitely.
krocha
09-18-06, 01:11 PM It's not a weapon attack to begin with. It's a melee touch attack that deals negative damage*. You can use it once per round...

*If you take Tomb Tainted Soul from Libris Mortis, you can heal yourself infinitely.

You are missing the point of my question. The question is, WHAT (if anything) can it be combined with or are you saying that a PC who had a +6 Atack Bonus and used a full attack option could make a Charnel Touch attack, one melee attack at +6 and another melee at +1?
SephDragoon
09-18-06, 01:47 PM Well... I guess it comes down to, does it have to be recast for every use, or is it always on? If it is always on, then it would act like a touch attack that has been imbued onto your hand, and can be used as part of an attack, like a natural attack or unarmed, or can be used to simply make a touch attack. In that regard, if it is a permanent effect on your hand, you could as an attack action, and as part of a fullround attack, hit with it.

If you have to cast it, aka, if it is a spell-like ability with an instantatious effect, then you would have to cast it, and that's a standard action... unless you use quicken spell-like ability, but that requires it to be the equivalent of a spell.
krocha
09-18-06, 01:57 PM Well... I guess it comes down to, does it have to be recast for every use, or is it always on? If it is always on, then it would act like a touch attack that has been imbued onto your hand, and can be used as part of an attack, like a natural attack or unarmed, or can be used to simply make a touch attack. In that regard, if it is a permanent effect on your hand, you could as an attack action, and as part of a fullround attack, hit with it.

That was kind of my thought/plan. If it is considered the same as an Unarmed Attack, then it could be combined with "normal" weapon attacks in a full-round action. The description in the DN says it can be used once per round but the fact that it's not listed as a Standard Action leads me to believe that it should be treated like any other melee attack option (with Unarmed Attack being it's closest relative.)
SephDragoon
09-18-06, 03:20 PM Is there an equivalent spell to charnal touch that it lists? Or is it just there? I hate abilities that are ambiguous... like monster abilities that don't tell you how they get the DC... really bad if you want to increase one of its stats with magic or something *sighs*.
claypigeons
09-18-06, 04:03 PM That was kind of my thought/plan. If it is considered the same as an Unarmed Attack, then it could be combined with "normal" weapon attacks in a full-round action. The description in the DN says it can be used once per round but the fact that it's not listed as a Standard Action leads me to believe that it should be treated like any other melee attack option (with Unarmed Attack being it's closest relative.)

It can't be combined with a weapon attack (meaning you cant use a weapon to deliver it normally). It takes a standard action to use it anyway (it's a supernatural ability), so it can't be combined with more attacks just because of that.
Bulletproof_Condom
09-18-06, 04:39 PM It is "channel touch", isn't it? "Charnel" is a typo, right?

I only ask because he did it four times and nobody mentioned it. I wanted to check before saying something but I don't have that book.
a_psh
09-18-06, 04:41 PM Charnel. As in, y'know, "like dead things".
krocha
09-18-06, 04:47 PM It can't be combined with a weapon attack (meaning you cant use a weapon to deliver it normally).

That's not what I'm saying. Okay maybe it's best to lay it out. Let say the DN has Scimitar and with that Scimitar he has a total +10 to hit (+6 base, +4 Str). The ND also is +10 to hit with their Charnel Touch attack (+6 base, +4 Str) So can the DN do the following with a Full Attack option:

+10 Charnel Touch attack dealing Charnel Touch damage as listed in the HoH

and

+5 Scimitar attack dealing normal Scimitar damage

The Charnel Touch attack is resolved against the targets Touch Attack AC and the Scimitar is resolved against the targets normal AC.
krocha
09-18-06, 04:48 PM It is "channel touch", isn't it? "Charnel" is a typo, right?

I only ask because he did it four times and nobody mentioned it. I wanted to check before saying something but I don't have that book.

It is indeed Charnel in the HoH book. So unless the book itself has a typo...
krocha
09-18-06, 04:53 PM It takes a standard action to use it anyway (it's a supernatural ability), so it can't be combined with more attacks just because of that.

Okay now we're getting to the heart of what I was asking. So, if using a SU Melee Touch Attack is a Standard Action (even though it is called a "Melee" Touch Attack). Can a Standard Action be combined with an Off-Hand Attack? For example a PC can make a single attack as a Standard Action but can also take another attack with their Off-Hand (albeit with a penalty to all the attacks.)
SephDragoon
09-18-06, 04:59 PM It can only with multitasking, a feat used by creatures with four arms... otherwise, no. The ability doesn't seem to be able to be held after its casting and used like say chill touch, so it seems you have to deliver the touch immediately.
krocha
09-18-06, 05:09 PM It can only with multitasking, a feat used by creatures with four arms... otherwise, no. The ability doesn't seem to be able to be held after its casting and used like say chill touch, so it seems you have to deliver the touch immediately.

Okay, but where did you see that it has to be "Cast" or are all SU abilities managed like that?
claypigeons
09-18-06, 06:21 PM Okay now we're getting to the heart of what I was asking. So, if using a SU Melee Touch Attack is a Standard Action (even though it is called a "Melee" Touch Attack).

It's a melee touch attack rather than a ranged touch attack.

Can a Standard Action be combined with an Off-Hand Attack? For example a PC can make a single attack as a Standard Action but can also take another attack with their Off-Hand (albeit with a penalty to all the attacks.)

You can only make one attack roll during a standard action (which is why there is a manyshot feat). You can either choose to use charnel touch, or attack. Not both. Using charnel touch is its own standard action, and cannot be combined with another standard action (look up the lack of synergy between manyshot and the order of the bow initiate's precise shot for a similar case).
krocha
09-18-06, 06:28 PM You can only make one attack roll during a standard action (which is why there is a manyshot feat). You can either choose to use charnel touch, or attack. Not both. Using charnel touch is its own standard action, and cannot be combined with another standard action (look up the lack of synergy between manyshot and the order of the bow initiate's precise shot for a similar case).

Where is that listed? That's not the way we play it. We take the off-hand attack as an extra attack since there is nothing in the PHB which says it can only be taken during a full attack action (at least to the best of my knowledge.) Do you know where in the PHB you've seen that you cannot take the extra attack that an offhand weapon gives?
krocha
09-18-06, 06:32 PM Just saw on table 8-2 in the Players Handbook that using a Supernatural Ability is a Standard Action so that rules out using it as part of a Full-Attack Option. My guess is that would also then mean it can't be used as an Off-Hand attack as well.

Don't get why they bothered to specifically say in the description that it can only be used once per round since as a SU it can only be used once anyway. Oh well, makes it pretty useless at higher levels IMHO.

Thanks for all the help guys in working this out.
claypigeons
09-18-06, 06:38 PM Do you know where in the PHB you've seen that you cannot take the extra attack that an offhand weapon gives?

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

Emphasis mine.
claypigeons
09-18-06, 06:44 PM Don't get why they bothered to specifically say in the description that it can only be used once per round since as a SU it can only be used once anyway. Oh well, makes it pretty useless at higher levels IMHO.

In my opinion, charnel touch isnt even the best class ability you get. (Then again, I consider the dread necromancer an 8 level class..). I like to use charnel touch to heal my undead minions, and even myself if I take the tomb tainted soul feat.

While it's not a powerful ability, it does have it's uses if you are able to take advantage of them(meaning: if you have access to Libris Mortis, people will think you are the most broken class ever).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
krocha 09-17-06, 07:55 PM	Can a Dread Necromancer use their Charnel Touch attack in conjunction with a normal attack? For example, lets say the DN had a BAB of +6. Could they use one attack to delivernel the Charnel Touch and then the other to make a weapon attack? Can it be used as an off-hand attack (either primary or secondaty)?
claypigeons 09-17-06, 09:12 PM	"... at will, but no more than once per round..." So it is stated in the Dread Necromancer rules...
krocha 09-17-06, 09:37 PM	"... at will, but no more than once per round..." So it is stated in the Dread Necromancer rules... Right, so does that mean it cam be combined with another weapons attack?
claypigeons 09-17-06, 09:44 PM	Right, so does that mean it cam be combined with another weapons attack? It's not a weapon attack to begin with. It's a melee touch attack that deals negative damage. You can use it once per round... If you take Tomb Tainted Soul from Libris Mortis, you can heal yourself infinitely.
krocha 09-18-06, 01:11 PM	It's not a weapon attack to begin with. It's a melee touch attack that deals negative damage. You can use it once per round... If you take Tomb Tainted Soul from Libris Mortis, you can heal yourself infinitely. You are missing the point of my question. The question is, WHAT (if anything) can it be combined with or are you saying that a PC who had a +6 Atack Bonus and used a full attack option could make a Charnel Touch attack, one melee attack at +6 and another melee at +1?
SephDragoon 09-18-06, 01:47 PM	Well... I guess it comes down to, does it have to be recast for every use, or is it always on? If it is always on, then it would act like a touch attack that has been imbued onto your hand, and can be used as part of an attack, like a natural attack or unarmed, or can be used to simply make a touch attack. In that regard, if it is a permanent effect on your hand, you could as an attack action, and as part of a fullround attack, hit with it. If you have to cast it, aka, if it is a spell-like ability with an instantatious effect, then you would have to cast it, and that's a standard action... unless you use quicken spell-like ability, but that requires it to be the equivalent of a spell.
krocha 09-18-06, 01:57 PM	Well... I guess it comes down to, does it have to be recast for every use, or is it always on? If it is always on, then it would act like a touch attack that has been imbued onto your hand, and can be used as part of an attack, like a natural attack or unarmed, or can be used to simply make a touch attack. In that regard, if it is a permanent effect on your hand, you could as an attack action, and as part of a fullround attack, hit with it. That was kind of my thought/plan. If it is considered the same as an Unarmed Attack, then it could be combined with "normal" weapon attacks in a full-round action. The description in the DN says it can be used once per round but the fact that it's not listed as a Standard Action leads me to believe that it should be treated like any other melee attack option (with Unarmed Attack being it's closest relative.)
SephDragoon 09-18-06, 03:20 PM	Is there an equivalent spell to charnal touch that it lists? Or is it just there? I hate abilities that are ambiguous... like monster abilities that don't tell you how they get the DC... really bad if you want to increase one of its stats with magic or something sighs.
claypigeons 09-18-06, 04:03 PM	That was kind of my thought/plan. If it is considered the same as an Unarmed Attack, then it could be combined with "normal" weapon attacks in a full-round action. The description in the DN says it can be used once per round but the fact that it's not listed as a Standard Action leads me to believe that it should be treated like any other melee attack option (with Unarmed Attack being it's closest relative.) It can't be combined with a weapon attack (meaning you cant use a weapon to deliver it normally). It takes a standard action to use it anyway (it's a supernatural ability), so it can't be combined with more attacks just because of that.
Bulletproof_Condom 09-18-06, 04:39 PM	It is "channel touch", isn't it? "Charnel" is a typo, right? I only ask because he did it four times and nobody mentioned it. I wanted to check before saying something but I don't have that book.
a_psh 09-18-06, 04:41 PM	Charnel. As in, y'know, "like dead things".
krocha 09-18-06, 04:47 PM	It can't be combined with a weapon attack (meaning you cant use a weapon to deliver it normally). That's not what I'm saying. Okay maybe it's best to lay it out. Let say the DN has Scimitar and with that Scimitar he has a total +10 to hit (+6 base, +4 Str). The ND also is +10 to hit with their Charnel Touch attack (+6 base, +4 Str) So can the DN do the following with a Full Attack option: +10 Charnel Touch attack dealing Charnel Touch damage as listed in the HoH and +5 Scimitar attack dealing normal Scimitar damage The Charnel Touch attack is resolved against the targets Touch Attack AC and the Scimitar is resolved against the targets normal AC.
krocha 09-18-06, 04:48 PM	It is "channel touch", isn't it? "Charnel" is a typo, right? I only ask because he did it four times and nobody mentioned it. I wanted to check before saying something but I don't have that book. It is indeed Charnel in the HoH book. So unless the book itself has a typo...
krocha 09-18-06, 04:53 PM	It takes a standard action to use it anyway (it's a supernatural ability), so it can't be combined with more attacks just because of that. Okay now we're getting to the heart of what I was asking. So, if using a SU Melee Touch Attack is a Standard Action (even though it is called a "Melee" Touch Attack). Can a Standard Action be combined with an Off-Hand Attack? For example a PC can make a single attack as a Standard Action but can also take another attack with their Off-Hand (albeit with a penalty to all the attacks.)
SephDragoon 09-18-06, 04:59 PM	It can only with multitasking, a feat used by creatures with four arms... otherwise, no. The ability doesn't seem to be able to be held after its casting and used like say chill touch, so it seems you have to deliver the touch immediately.
krocha 09-18-06, 05:09 PM	It can only with multitasking, a feat used by creatures with four arms... otherwise, no. The ability doesn't seem to be able to be held after its casting and used like say chill touch, so it seems you have to deliver the touch immediately. Okay, but where did you see that it has to be "Cast" or are all SU abilities managed like that?
claypigeons 09-18-06, 06:21 PM	Okay now we're getting to the heart of what I was asking. So, if using a SU Melee Touch Attack is a Standard Action (even though it is called a "Melee" Touch Attack). It's a melee touch attack rather than a ranged touch attack. Can a Standard Action be combined with an Off-Hand Attack? For example a PC can make a single attack as a Standard Action but can also take another attack with their Off-Hand (albeit with a penalty to all the attacks.) You can only make one attack roll during a standard action (which is why there is a manyshot feat). You can either choose to use charnel touch, or attack. Not both. Using charnel touch is its own standard action, and cannot be combined with another standard action (look up the lack of synergy between manyshot and the order of the bow initiate's precise shot for a similar case).
krocha 09-18-06, 06:28 PM	You can only make one attack roll during a standard action (which is why there is a manyshot feat). You can either choose to use charnel touch, or attack. Not both. Using charnel touch is its own standard action, and cannot be combined with another standard action (look up the lack of synergy between manyshot and the order of the bow initiate's precise shot for a similar case). Where is that listed? That's not the way we play it. We take the off-hand attack as an extra attack since there is nothing in the PHB which says it can only be taken during a full attack action (at least to the best of my knowledge.) Do you know where in the PHB you've seen that you cannot take the extra attack that an offhand weapon gives?
krocha 09-18-06, 06:32 PM	Just saw on table 8-2 in the Players Handbook that using a Supernatural Ability is a Standard Action so that rules out using it as part of a Full-Attack Option. My guess is that would also then mean it can't be used as an Off-Hand attack as well. Don't get why they bothered to specifically say in the description that it can only be used once per round since as a SU it can only be used once anyway. Oh well, makes it pretty useless at higher levels IMHO. Thanks for all the help guys in working this out.
claypigeons 09-18-06, 06:38 PM	Do you know where in the PHB you've seen that you cannot take the extra attack that an offhand weapon gives? Full Attack If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones. Emphasis mine.
claypigeons 09-18-06, 06:44 PM	Don't get why they bothered to specifically say in the description that it can only be used once per round since as a SU it can only be used once anyway. Oh well, makes it pretty useless at higher levels IMHO. In my opinion, charnel touch isnt even the best class ability you get. (Then again, I consider the dread necromancer an 8 level class..). I like to use charnel touch to heal my undead minions, and even myself if I take the tomb tainted soul feat. While it's not a powerful ability, it does have it's uses if you are able to take advantage of them(meaning: if you have access to Libris Mortis, people will think you are the most broken class ever).