Post/Author/DateTime	Post
razorboy 06-30-06, 09:31 AM	I recently had a long and interesting discussion with one of my players regarding children and stats for children in D&D, and how NPCs gain levels in general, so I thought I'd pitch the discussion on the boards. Basically the dilemma is as follows. In a normal medieval world, the life expectancy of an average peasant did not usually exceed 30-35 years old. A townsperson's life expectancy was sometimes longer, but also frequently shorter due to higher occurences of disease and so on. In a D&D world, many diseases can be prevented and cured, however the ratio of clerics/adepts/druids to the general population is still very slim so they obviously can't help the majority of the population. Considering that many clerics/adepts/druids may follow different gods, ideals and goals (cleric might only help the faithful of his church, adept charges a fee or only helps his tribe/community, a druid is more concerned with healing and helping nature), it's even less likely that divine casters will be able to help majority of the population. What this meant in medieval world is that children started helping their parents on the farm or in business at 4 or 5, looking after younger children, and livestock. At 8-10 many children (other than peasants) were apprenticed to a craftsman, and already had some acquired skills (children were frequently relegated to tasks such as knitting, caring for livestock, basket weaving, gathering food, had some knowledge of legends, god and saints, other lore, etc). Knights began their martial training very early on as well. So why then are there so many 1st level commoners that are adults, was what my player was asking? She was arguing that judging by skill DCs required to accomplish certain tasks, children would really be 1st level commoners, and adult NPCs (15 years of age and up) would be 3-5th level experts, commoners, etc. By 15-16 years old, most members of medieval population were quite competent at their tasks. Certainly the high volume of crafted goods that were produced all over Medieval Europe attests to the fact that there was a large pool of skilled labor available. So is NPC level progressions tied to age, rather than going on adventures and getting XP? If so, what would be the average level of a core D&D world NPC (15-30 years old)? What would be the level of children? Which NPC professions would level faster than others? What are your thoughts?
amatulic 06-30-06, 10:44 AM	Well, you could always have your party conform to what you think are realistic ages. In D&D, age doesn't matter except when a character gets old enough to weaken Str, Dex, and Con, and enhance Int, Wis, and Cha. Seems to me, though, as a child grows, her abilities would start out lower (say a 10-point buy) and improve faster than the D&D progression. Adults grow their abilities more slowly, 1 point for 1 ability every 3 levels. This progression makes sense considering abilities can improve somewhat with exercise and experience. And of course, skills improve more quickly with practice. Finally, children generally can't perform actions that one would consider a "feat" until they're old enough. Those 1st level commoners are generally not adventurers. An innkeeper, for example, likely wouldn't need to be more than 1st level to be competent. He doesn't need any high abilities except perhaps Int. And he'd come with significant class skill bonuses in Profession:Innkeeper, and perhaps also Bluff and Diplomacy. And the skill points would concentrate in the profession, probably more skill ranks at 1st level than would be allowed by the core rules. A guard or policeman makes sense for 1st level unless they're part of an elite unit. Typically these are grunts who never went off adventuring and know the rudiments of fighting. Personally, I think it makes sense for many adult NPCs to be first level. And in any town, you can always find high-level NPCs too. -Alex
runestar 06-30-06, 10:57 AM	Yeah, not to mention those child prodigies today who trounce people 10 times their age in chess tournaments or piano recitals... :cool:
razorboy 06-30-06, 11:14 AM	Good post Amatulic. It makes sense to me that children would be using stats with a 10 point buy while adults would use perhaps 15-20 point buy, and children would not have full or even average hit points at first level. However, considering the actual skill level required to be a farmer or a craftsman in a medieval setting, I still don't agree that majority of NPC adults would be level 1. They won't have the skills required for the Profession/Craft/, Diplomacy/Knowledge (for aristocrats, experts, scholars, etc) to realistically function and fulfill their required roles in a medieval society. I guess majority being 1st level NPCs makes sense in a metagame explanation for why they're so afraid of a nearby goblin or kobold tribe and need 1st level adventurers to clear them out. My player also raised another issue (she's an even bigger stickler for realism than I am): she argued that all players should start off as having a level in an NPC class and a level in a PC class. She argues that other than clerics, monks, and characters raised from a young age in a sheltered environment where they were given only a few specific tasks to master, characters should have a level of an NPC class to represent skills acquired before the character began adventuring. Has anyone ever tried anything like this in one of your games? Or perhaps apprentice rules (0-level characters)? How well did it work out, or not?
pres_man 06-30-06, 11:26 AM	Don't confuse average life expectancy with actual life expectancy. Peasants weren't dying by the load when they got to their mid-30's. The average takes into account a lot of children dying due to childhood illnesses, that in our day and age are easily prevented or cured. Thus the average gives a skewed view. If a peasant had made it to their twenties then they probably could safely live till their late fifties or sixties (in which they started to run into the other end of sickness problems, the people most likely to die from an illness are the very young and the very old). Since most of the DCs to craft items and the like are around 15, this only requires one or two levels of a class to make (take 10's on checks). Thus there is no push for them to advance. Though you can make level gain related to age for NPCs, this is how many monster races work, just look at dragons. Maybe set it on 5 year increases for humans (adjust for slower aging races). Probably start them out as d4 creatures with no skill points for less than 10. 10-15 everybody is a 1st level commoner, 15-20 they either gain another commoner level or switchout their commoner level for another NPC class. 20-25 gain another level, ...
Jaeron Dalur 06-30-06, 09:01 PM	Don't confuse average life expectancy with actual life expectancy. Peasants weren't dying by the load when they got to their mid-30's. The average takes into account a lot of children dying due to childhood illnesses, that in our day and age are easily prevented or cured. Thus the average gives a skewed view. If a peasant had made it to their twenties then they probably could safely live till their late fifties or sixties (in which they started to run into the other end of sickness problems, the people most likely to die from an illness are the very young and the very old). I agree, that is something that is too often overlooked when viewing average life expectancy. But even that's not a huge problem. A human adult, in D&D, is 14 or 15 years old (can't remember which). Until they are around 13-14 years old, children would be pretty useless on a farm anyway (Collecting eggs and milking cows doesn't count. I am taking about tilling the fields, sowing seeds, and picking crops). As you can probably tell, I'm in the "children don't need class levels" camp. I do think they need stats though. My favorite way to do it is to take one of the NPC classes as the base, and then give them 1/4 or 1/2 classes in it, advancing to a full level upon adulthood. A 10+ year old would get a half class and younger children would get a quarter class. Here's a mock-up of a commoner class that goes from 1/4 level to 1st level: HD BAB Will Fort Ref Total Skill Points 1/4 +0 +0 +0 +0 (2 + Int) x 1 1/2 +0 +0 +0 +0 (2 + Int) x 2 1* +0 +0 +0 +0 (2 + Int) x 4 * Gets feat for 1st HD at this level Note: HP for the fractional levels is equal to what it would be for first level divided by the fractional HD, rounded down, with a minimum of 1.
boozerker 06-30-06, 09:57 PM	Seems to me, though, as a child grows, her abilities would start out lower (say a 10-point buy) and improve faster than the D&D progression. Adults grow their abilities more slowly, 1 point for 1 ability every 3 levels. This progression makes sense considering abilities can improve somewhat with exercise and experience. And of course, skills improve more quickly with practice. Finally, children generally can't perform actions that one would consider a "feat" until they're old enough. Nice idea. You could probably just use the 15 or 20 point buy system for children ahead of time, but chop off any excess from Abilities above 8. Then, you could increase any of the lowest scores by 1 every year, until all their target numbers are full value. As you can probably tell, I'm in the "children don't need class levels" camp. I do think they need stats though. My favorite way to do it is to take one of the NPC classes as the base, and then give them 1/4 or 1/2 classes in it, advancing to a full level upon adulthood. A 10+ year old would get a half class and younger children would get a quarter class. Here's a mock-up of a commoner class that goes from 1/4 level to 1st level: HD BAB Will Fort Ref Total Skill Points 1/4 +0 +0 +0 +0 (2 + Int) x 1 1/2 +0 +0 +0 +0 (2 + Int) x 2 1* +0 +0 +0 +0 (2 + Int) x 4 * Gets feat for 1st HD at this level Note: HP for the fractional levels is equal to what it would be for first level divided by the fractional HD, rounded down, with a minimum of 1. In addition to the yearly Ability progression just mentioned, you could probably start the 1/4 stats somewhere between ages 4-10, and the 1/2 stats between ages 11-13. At age 14 onwards, the normal NPC stats could kick in.
dokesa 06-30-06, 10:38 PM	There was a post a page or two back about something similar. I like the incremental skill points. I may incorporate them into my system. I use infant (age 0) 1 in all scores, toddler (age 1-3) 1d3, child (age 4-8) 1d6, juvenile (age 9-14) 2d6, and adult (15-?) 3d6; minimum intelligence of 3 in all ages. There are a couple things to think about when assigning levels, skill points, and abilities. If we were to optimize a craftsman, we would put his highest ability score in intelligence, maybe make him older, give him four ranks and skill focus in the relevant craft. People in the Middle Ages usually went into their father's business. To create a realistic craftsman, he would probably be in the adult age category based on age demographics, his intelligence would only have a one in six chance of being his best score, and based on the craft description, he likely wouldn't have four ranks in craft, let alone skill focus. The DMG (which I don't have access to at the moment) has a guide that says how many NPCs at each level a city should have. When I start writing programs to create towns and people for me, I'll probably do some selective picking for royal servants (higher levels, guards with high strength, maidens with high charisma, etc.) and randomize everything else among the general population. I'm trying to find a medieval age chart. The closest I could find was one for the world's developing countries.
Escef 06-30-06, 10:43 PM	In a normal medieval world, the life expectancy of an average peasant did not usually exceed 30-35 years old. Once one survived childhood, one could reasonably expect to live to 50 or more. Average life expectancies are averages, and the significantly higher infant mortality rate serioiusly cuts into the average. If 1 in every 4 people died in infancy and the rest lived to 50 the average life expectancy is just shy of 19. Obviously, the infant mortality rate wasn't that high, but you get the picture.