| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Abaneth09-02-04, 04:15 PM | I think there should be an equivalant of D&D. Instead of using magic, you could use a different term, such as power. THis could allow many people who couldn't normally play D&D play. Name it Castles & Angels or something. What do ya'll think? |
| PSchirf09-02-04, 04:25 PM | Christian Campaign Project (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=166747) |
| Agamemnon66709-02-04, 04:29 PM | Hm, I'm going to make a terminology point here. Asking for a "Christian Alternative" to D&D implies that D&D is non-Christian, which I cannot agree to. I'd call it neutral in terms to Christianity, being neither actively for or actively against. Also, changing labels around is not necessarily a preferable way to resolve situations. Central in one of the most successful novels of this decade is the following thought that ought to be borne in mind: "Fear of a name only increases fear for the thing itself." If the concept of magic in the game is the problem, we should confront said problem instead of working around it. Evasion is the preferred tactic of one with something to fear. Dungeons and Dragons has been around for 30 years. We have nothing to fear, so why skirt the issue? |
| Bacon and Eggs09-02-04, 04:31 PM | Call it the Hello Kitty RPG. |
| Arrowhen09-02-04, 04:52 PM | Call it the Hello Kitty RPG. Nah, that game actually sounds fun. |
| Callista09-02-04, 04:55 PM | As a Christian who plays D&D, the biggest thing I've seen is that people simply don't understand D&D. Often, they'll allow just about any other RPG, but they've seen so much bad publicity with D&D that they're scared of it. Others believe magic is the problem; they think that (and I don't know how they justify this) pretending to cast spells is somehow wrong. To these people, I say: All right, say magic is wrong; but you've got to ban Cinderella and Santa Claus, too. (Some do, but they're real extremists that the average Christian thinks should lighten up a good bit). My own group has only one small restriction. Personally, I don't mind pretending my characters worship Kord or Pelor or whoever, but some of the players don't feel comfortable declaring that their characters worship gods other than the Christian God. But that's easily enough gotten around; clerics and paladins can be dedicated to an alignment or organization just as easily as a deity; and one of my players has a paladin who simply put down "God" as her deity. We've had no problems, either game-wise or conscience-wise. Perhaps that will change if we ever get to epic levels, where direct interaction with deities becomes much more common. But for now, no one's above 7th or 8th level; so that will be a while yet. At any rate, the gods of the D&D pantheon aren't nearly as powerful as the Christian God... they're more on the level of the Valar in Tolkien's Middle-Earth. |
| lightman09-02-04, 06:41 PM | in my campaingn, there is one true god who has a number of saints with great power. the devil also has his equivilant to this. characters are allowed to worship the saints, but they should take the true god as the greatest deity. |
| Fi'Irdray09-02-04, 07:09 PM | if you've established that there's only one god in your campeign world, wouldn't saint worship be considered idolatry? |
| The Rooster09-02-04, 08:39 PM | Hm, I'm going to make a terminology point here. Asking for a "Christian Alternative" to D&D implies that D&D is non-Christian, which I cannot agree to. I'd call it neutral in terms to Christianity, being neither actively for or actively against. I have to agree. I find nothing in the D&D game incompatible with Christianity. Therefore, I see no need for an alternative. There is simply a need for educating people who believe the game itself is inherently evil. Rooster |
| Count Arioch the 28th09-02-04, 08:52 PM | if you've established that there's only one god in your campeign world, wouldn't saint worship be considered idolatry? He's waiting until he gets the Reformation accesory for that. ;) |
| darkwave09-02-04, 10:01 PM | Actually, I myself simply wouldn't play "divine" casters in campaigns where one HAD to follow some power to get spells. I wasn't really comfortable when others were forced to, but I don't want to be suppressive, so I didn't comment. Since I often was the guy that played the "missing piece" in RPGs, people were ticked when I wouldn't play the band-aid boy for a D&D game a long time ago. In fact I was turned off the whole game system for something like a decade and was only brought back on board due to a catholic girlfriend that told me of rule changes and attitude changes in the "new" game system (3.0). BTW - this issue also hits people of other religions, so IMNSHO, this flexibility isn't to me a "Sop to Christians", but acknowledging that there are people in RL that have different faiths and want to play a fun game, but won't bend certain principles to do so. Shoot, I think one reason that I like psionics is the magic label, but since I have a tendency to view all super advanced technology as effectively magic, I don't have too big an issue with calling things magic either... :D _______ However doesn’t one feel that this thread may tread a hair closer to one of the not to be crossed lines than one wants... :-) |
| Harmor09-02-04, 10:15 PM | "You're a paladin of which diety?...Oh yeah nevermind." |
| Leibel09-03-04, 03:44 PM | A thread like this was shut down so if I run away lest I be locked under this thread don't mind - Try green ronins Testament - Once you've ordered it spend the time it takes for you local comic/hobby store to get it researching the 1st century in Israel, Roman empire, Jewish religious divisions, early christianity, etc. - You can keep the fantasy aspect of the DnD(look at LOTR) including magic(king arthor story) - Make all DnD dieties angels people pray to as intermediaries to you know who |
| Lord Stigius09-03-04, 05:57 PM | Personally, I see no problems in calling on imaginary beings in a game of imagination. When a character of mine, either PC or NPC asks his/her god for blessing, I do not confuse the character with myself any more than I could confuse a book character with the writer. I really hope the difference is visible without the need of having an university degree in literature ;) When my paladin smites infidels in the name of, say, Tyr, it's a purely in-game act, with completly no influence on real life (and real religion), and no direct reference to it. I see problems the other way: even in a quasi-historical game, not in a fantasy world, using names from real religion may go against the Second Commandment, depending on how strictly you take it (I'm talking about Christianity here, not being aware how things go with other faiths). I start feeling uncomfortable when my character has to refer to God because it is 'required' (say, I'm playing a historical crusader in a game which reenacts medieval crusade). The things would go even worse if I were to play a D&D priest of real God. Here I have the feeling of mixing two orders that simply do not mix. Calling on a real world God (I'm not arguing here whether God exists or not, simply using the word 'real' for 'worshipped in real word') is like believing that real world God works within D&D universum, grants clerics their spells... Well, I think I'll stop before they remind ne of CoC. I simply like having my game world and my RL world easily discernible. |
| D+109-04-04, 12:58 AM | I also have to agree with Agamemnon - D&D is not in and of itself evil, nor anti-Christian. It is FICTION. It is IMAGINARY. Do not confuse the two. If a fictional world that includes "demons", "devils", and both divine and arcane magic is uncomfortable or undesirable then play spies under d20 Modern, Traveller d20, or some other genre than traditional fantasy which includes those elements. Otherwise, a monotheistic campaign is simple to arrange because it's mostly just a matter of removing or altering the words that upset you. |
| EvilDuck09-04-04, 10:22 AM | We've got a couple of people in our group that are devoutly religious, and nothing's come up against them yet. I think that RPG magic(along with CCG magic, video game magic, etc.) is far enough from reality to where it won't offend anyone's RL god of choice. Really, you're just hitting buttons or turning cards sideways, or crossing a spell off your list and saying "Nuke dat *****." |
| Willie the Duck09-04-04, 11:59 AM | Actually, I myself simply wouldn't play "divine" casters in campaigns where one HAD to follow some power to get spells. I wasn't really comfortable when others were forced to, but I don't want to be suppressive, so I didn't comment. Since I often was the guy that played the "missing piece" in RPGs, people were ticked when I wouldn't play the band-aid boy for a D&D game a long time ago. In fact I was turned off the whole game system for something like a decade and was only brought back on board due to a catholic girlfriend that told me of rule changes and attitude changes in the "new" game system (3.0). Are you serious? Nothing could have been more more apologetically PC towards religion that 2.0. Devils and Demons became biatsu and tanari. Nothing was listed in the PHB about worshiping fictional gods (worshiping an overgod or philosophy was the assumed method). How could 3.0 be less offensive? |
| Elrana09-04-04, 12:31 PM | As a practising Jew I have no objection to D&D in any way shape or form. My characters cast spells on Saturday and don't even keep Kosher! As I am fully aware of the distinction between an imaginary character in a fantasy role-playing setting biting into a nicely roasted loin of pork and me in the real world doing it I have absolutely no problems. It seems to me that there are two issues, one is borne by ignorance and misunderstanding, anyone who has never played the game and tells me it is evil will get very short shrift from me, and the second is blurring the lines between fantasy and reality and confusing the two issues. Do the people who don't like their characters to worship a D&D god feel as uncomfortable writing about a fictional character who is non-Xian? Or watching a film such as Jason and the Argonauts or reading Homer's Odyssey? At the end of the day you could go so far as to feel uncomfortable watching the Simpsons, after all we were made in god's image but the Springfieldians only have three fingers! Heresy! There has to be a line drawn between what is real and affects the real world (whether it includes god or not) and the fantasy world where actions don't impact on the real world. I follow a religion in the real world but I don't expect my elf to bring down the wrath of Corellon the next time I play. Equally I play an elf who worships Corellon in a fantasy world and don't expect god to strike me down as I walk out of the session. This lack of distinction can lead to all sorts of problems, hell, I kill people left, right and centre on a daily basis but I don't expect my Paladin to be censured by his church next time I play. Hang on. I may have that the wrong way round. :confused: :) |
| Ringmereth09-04-04, 11:54 PM | I'm a Christian. I play D&D. I see no need for an alternative, and agree that using real-world religion mixed with the game is much worse than having a consistant, fully fictional game world. If D&D as it is still doesn't work for you, I recommend d20 Modern, and the upcoming d20 Past. Both can be played with an absence of deities, real or ficticious. |
| Abaneth09-05-04, 04:07 PM | I personally have no problem with D&D, but I know that some people(even some of my relatives) think that it is satanic, etc. There will not listen to anything anyone else says. But, I think that there should be a slightly revised version for those radicals who don't like the game. |
| Elrana09-05-04, 07:41 PM | I personally have no problem with D&D, but I know that some people(even some of my relatives) think that it is satanic, etc. There will not listen to anything anyone else says. But, I think that there should be a slightly revised version for those radicals who don't like the game. There is. It's called the 'D&D self-censorship version'. Basically it allows the person who doesn't like it not to buy, play or involve themselves in it and doesn't require any action to be taken against those who do! :) |
| obrysii09-05-04, 11:26 PM | In my campaign, there is only one God....well, God. He has many servants who are active in the world...one of which would have a DR 21+ (Divine Rank 21+, aka, an Overdiety according to the ranking system). Anyway, all of the other "dieties" in the PhB are all just powerful beings...but not gods. All of those people who are so hyper sensitive about the content of DnD should really look at it for once. They're so hypocritical that nothing they say should be taken seriously. |
| BlaineTog09-06-04, 01:09 AM | if you've established that there's only one god in your campeign world, wouldn't saint worship be considered idolatry?No. Because we don't worship saints. We think they were cool people who deserve respect (and have nothing to do up in Heaven but listen to us whine :D). I think you should take a look at the Planar Handbook (the new one). There's a sect (with its very own PrC) described in it that has the belief that the "gods" are merely powerful mortals and that there is only one true God who is mostly unknown. I suggest you check it out. |
| deusxmachina09-06-04, 02:43 AM | I personally have no problem with D&D, but I know that some people(even some of my relatives) think that it is satanic, etc. There will not listen to anything anyone else says. But, I think that there should be a slightly revised version for those radicals who don't like the game. If they don't like the game, they are free to play one of the other multitudes of games out there. I don't think most people who think those things about D&D have ever or would ever play a typical roleplaying game anyway. They are either ignorant by accident or closed-minded on purpose. Either way, I doubt they'd play anything more "controversial" than Yahtzee. This thread makes me wonder if socialists ever play Monopoly. Same difference. |
| The WarOverlord09-06-04, 09:45 AM | I think there should be an equivalant of D&D. Instead of using magic, you could use a different term, such as power. THis could allow many people who couldn't normally play D&D play. Name it Castles & Angels or something. What do ya'll think? What is wrong with Magic? Magic is not a "super natural" force...well actually it depends where the source of the magic comes from eh? The most basic form of Magic is "ether" which is a extra-dimensional type of energy that can be controlled by the will and the mind of the Sorcerer or Mage to create "magical" effects.....in effect making what is of the mind and will "real" in reality. Now if the Christan's believe that GOD made all things then GOD made this extra dimension too yes? And if people have the gift to tap into this place that GOD made and make things happen then it is by GOD's will, yes? The more 'Sore Point" I think is Clerical Magic which is granted by the Cleric's god, or in some cases really powerful extra-terrestrials like Demons, or powerful beings like the Dragons of Athas Now, in Christianity there Bible speaks of "angels" from the Sky and "stones" of fire proclaiming to be gods" but in truth they are the creatures that have been around before humans on Earth in creation (and no, "existence" didn't start with Adam and eve or their Earth in the "Geniuses" and it says so in the Psalms, but that is not the point of this post) These Creatures of immortal status do in fact have "great power" and the Hierarchy consists of the "Uber-gods" (Ancient Ones) which do nothing more than watch the Over-gods, the Over-gods(Old Ones) that watch over the different realities (universes) of reality and their related planes of existence and within these "Shperes" of existence containing different universes/planes they usually have a Pantheon of guardians(gods) managing their projects...sometimes interactively, sometimes indirectly Now be clear...Christianity never said their weren't "other gods", it just said that Christan's shouldn't worship them. If GOD made all existence, and GOD made all the creatures within, then wouldn't have GOD had made those claiming to be Uber-Gods that live in the dimensions just before the "dimensional ceiling" in a rift that kills "old Ones, or the "old Ones" that live above the "6th Dimensional vortex" that kills "gods" (or make them lost forever at the very least) or even some of the super powerful beings that proclaim to be gods? In fact the "rebellion" of the "Angels" is what created most of the "self proclaimed gods" and the modern gods where either created by them or are descended from them. (And no they were cast into "existence" and out of GOD's home plane of "Heaven" not into "hell"..and would that be the 9 hells or 666 hells?) Oh and to get that straight "Heaven" which GOD and his minions occupy is adjunct to the Multiverse with all its universes and planes of existence and isn't accessible by anyone but GOD, his minions, and his believers because of a "dimensional ceiling" that is inaccessible to mortals and Uber-gods, and Over-gods,and gods and their magic that, if entered, is pitch black and every emotionally uncomfortable to be in and eventually uncontrollable insanity sets in (called "the pit" by those that ventured in it...and yes those thrown out of Heaven end up having o go through "the pit" though you can easily "phase" out of it if you have the magic/ability to do so ) This like the 2 other rifts were created during the "rebellion of Angels" The "Uber-gods" protected themselves from attacks by rebel "Over-gods" by creating a 11th dimensional rift that seems "all Grey' and featureless to anyone but a "Uber-god" and is impassible to over-gods or mortals. In turn the "Over-gods" protected their territory from rebel "gods" with a "6th dimensional vortex". Any gods trying to "phase" into the 6th dimension find them selfs in a mist of swirling Grey fog who's center is like a "black hole" (Shperes of annihilation) and gods will tend to get lost in the swirl but if they fall into the hole they are annihilated (no matter how much power they thought they had) In the Beginning all the projects and positions that the "Uber-gods", "Over-gods",and "gods" were held by GOD's minions but their were more positions to fill than the minions could handle so GOD gave the power to his minions to promote mortals in existence to those positions......over the Milena more and more were promoted by fellow formal members as GOD's minions were either transfered to other duties or grew tired of the tasks at hand and delegated power to formal mortals, and eventually the "rebellion" happened Now all the Uber-Gods, and Over-gods, and gods are descended from formal mortals and/or promoted from mortal stock and their are no GOD's minions among their rank, though a handful of Overgods and Uber-Gods may still know the truth of their existence and may even still serve in proper reflection to their duties. (Ao supposedly serves the "celestial Light" if I remember correctly, though I think that might be a "Over-god Counsel" he must answer to) Okay, some ground rules for Christan PCs Being a Sorcerer is okay as long as the source of Magic comes from "the Ether" plane that GOD created and remember, if you can use this magic GOD blessed you with this gift Being a Mage is okay also as long as the magic comes from "the Ether" that god created and you do not associate with Extra-planers that are "gods" for your magic knowledge Christan Clerics aren't going to get Spells, as GOD is not a Interactive type like how some of the "so called gods" are dishing out "miracles" and granting them spells so they worship them. On the other hand the "Holy Word" that the Cleric can mutter instantly destroys Undead (no save), will make most evil creatures flee if not make them very uncomfortable, and even make "miracles" happen......as long as the Cleric says the "Holy Word" with faith. Saying the "holy word" over Olive oil will make "blessing Oil" which doesn't heal those anointed with it except by the faith of the anointment, and does not damage Undead or evil creatures when used either as thrown in vials or on weapons (using oil on weapon to make it a "blessed" weapon Noting again that the oil itself isn't "magical" but is faith driven so extra damage can only be caused by the weilder's faith) Christan Clerics must realize, GOD helps those that help themselves, so acquiring magical scrolls, and magic weapons, and magic armor and other devices clerics can use is OK as long as the Item isn't specifically dedicated to "another god" (which most generic Items aren't). THier is granting of "divine Spells" though "divine intervention" can happen by uttering the "Holy Word" (depending on Faith once again) Also Jesus's message was for compassion, tolerance, understanding, love, mercy, and respect so it "isn't a sin" if your party has to go into a Temple of TOrm and take a mission from them to save a local farm House from a troll raid, as in any faith whether Christan or Tormnian or Helmite the best way to show your "faith's love" is to live by example Christian "Scout" would be the term and not Thief. What is "stealing" is relative though and there is always a fine line between archeology and grave robbing, and finding a "lost" treasure and if whoever put it there might come back for it and expects their property to be there when they do. :rolleyes: Christian Ranger is not to complicated as Nature is an Aspect of GOD according to Christianity. Christian Druids also aren't too complicated as Nature is an aspect of GOD. Christan Paladins are like the "Crusaders" and would serve the Church (not necessarily GOD) |
| deusxmachina09-06-04, 04:19 PM | Now be clear...Christianity never said their weren't "other gods", it just said that Christan's shouldn't worship them. I dunno, there's a whole lot of "false gods" talk, not "other gods" talk. I can understand some people having a problem playing with the umpteen-million gods references in D&D, in which case that is easily solved by eliminating the god references and having spells come from their inner selves or from the sun or whatever. It's hard to understand why anyone would care about spells themselves, though. Do these people also have problems watching superhero cartoons or reading a comic book or playing a video game? Superman gets his power from the sun, so if they don't have a problem with that, then their characters can have it the same way. Or they are like mutants and they can cast spells "just because." Pretending your character can cast a spell isn't much different than playing a character who can wield a magical sword or who can fly a spaceship or whatever. D&D without magic just isn't D&D to me. |
| The WarOverlord09-07-04, 09:15 AM | [QUOTE=deusxmachina]I dunno, there's a whole lot of "false gods" talk, not "other gods" talk. QUOTE] Yes but the worshipers of Cyric say that the other gods are "false gods" so that kind of talk in one religion about another religion and thier god v.s. other gods happens all the all the time......especially with the intollerant believers in a religion or religions that are apposing each other :rolleyes: [QUOTE=deusxmachina]I can understand some people having a problem playing with the umpteen-million gods references in D&D, in which case that is easily solved by eliminating the god references and having spells come from their inner selves or from the sun or whatever. QUOTE] But then you might be accused of worshiping the sun or yourself by a Christian fanatic :rolleyes: The immortals claiming to be "gods" are nothing more than super powerful beings that "manage" existence like a form of "government" and in the End GOD made all of existence and everything within it.....including the "false gods" that are all full of themselves, but if you notice they still live as do the people that hold thier alligence to them like How republiccans hold allegence to their party and President Bush and Democrats hold allegence to their party and want thier canidate to be president, or how Clubs give special treatments to their members that follow the rules of the Club. Remember, the "fanatics" in any religion might think something that is in dirrect opposition of what their diety stands for. If GOD made everything then he made those creatures that call themselves "gods" to. THose "in the know" would understand that they are decendants of the ancient gaurdians of existance and though they may have cool powers in the end they can never beat GOD, and their continued existence means they do serve a purpouse in GOD's plan and those who know better just shouldn't frollock over them as "gods" though if you ever have to work with their minions or servants, or even with them directly , that you should show them respect, compasion, understanding, and such but don't "worship" that way. |
| PSchirf09-07-04, 09:24 AM | It's very easy to have GOD positioned over a pantheon of "gods". Many authors have done it, including Tolkien. Tolkien's Cosmology Ilúvatar, the All-Father, is really the only true "God", in the traditional sense. He dwells in the Timeless Halls and rarely intervenes in Creation. The Valar and Maiar are beings created by Ilúvatar to be his instruments (pun intended for those who know the Silmarillion). They would be classified by non-gamers are Greater and Lesser angels, respectively. For those familiar with D&D they would be greater gods and lesser gods, complete with powers over parts of creation. Ulmo, for instance, is the Vala (singular for Valar) associated with water. He is both the one who makes rain and the lord of the oceans. Several Maiar serve him, each with more restricted spheres of influence. There are 15 (or more, if you extend your count to a few mentioned in unpublished works) Valar and numerous Maiar. Valar which were removed before the Silmarillion was published: Makar and Meássë. Melkor was the most powerful Vala, and he rebelled against Ilúvatar, seducing many maiar to his evil cause. Chief among them was Sauron, who was originally a maia of Aulë, the earth Vala, architect of mountains and master of crafts. The five wizards (Istari), also maiar, were sent by the good Valar to help the people of Middle Earth in their fight against Sauron. They were restricted to providing council (except when confronting other beings of their kind), and dared not confront Sauron directly, least they be destroyed. Saroman's change of sides may not have been the first in the brotherhood. Little is known about the allegiances of the two blue wizards, and some suspect that they too had joined with the evil forces. |
| Elrana09-07-04, 09:53 AM | As I recall when questioned about the actions of the two blues JRRT said 'I don't know. I haven't found them yet.' That was pretty much his outlook on ME and its inhabitants, he was discovering it as the inspiration came rather than inventing it as he thought things up. I think it pretty likely that the two blues went mad as did 'that fool Radagast'. The Istari were not well made to live among mortals and it was only by dint of will that they kept their focus and their minds, and in the end only the grey managed it. Back on topic the whole set up with Ilúvatar and Sauron was just lifted straight from the bible pretty much and a copy-cat redefining of the D&D pantheons is a pretty easy thing to do and makes for a workably monotheistic setting without having to totally change the nature of divine magic and such. :) |
| Grox09-07-04, 10:38 AM | The easiest way to convert normal D&D to a monotheistic setting is to just allow "monotheistic" gods to have worshippers or priests of any alignment. |
| JabberWocky09-07-04, 10:58 AM | In order for one to create a monotheistic setting based on the Christian mythos, one must first disprove the power of other deities. Can one deny the power of another faith simply because it is not his own? |
| Grox09-07-04, 06:25 PM | Well, sure. The point is, that a monotheistic deity doesn't have a "sphere of influence" like "Agriculture" or "War" or "The Sea" (though perhaps, a previous incarnation of it may have). A monotheistic deity's "sphere of influence" is saying "I am the ultimate god, you shall have no other gods before me". It's a jealous god, one that stands merely for itself in all spheres of thought, action and influence. As such, the monotheistic deity, while it may have an alignment, is far more concerned with supplanting all other deities than merely pushing the agenda of its alignment in the world of mere mortals. Since its overriding concern is the spread of its own worship, this trumps petty concerns like alignment and allows the deity to accept worshippers or priests of ALL alignments. This is how an NG monotheistic god can have evil priests calling down spells in its name throughout the game world, and still keep the game's alignment system intact. And this isn't about Christianity or any other real-world religion, in particular. It's about adopting ANY monotheistic deity into the game world. So there's no need to reply with real-life historical events --- use any moral situation you want, just KEEP IT HYPOTHETICAL and stay away from real-world references. We can discuss these situations for game purposes just as effectively while calling a hypothetical monotheistic deity in the game an ordinary name like "Fred" or "Steve". |
| Elrana09-07-04, 07:26 PM | In order for one to create a monotheistic setting based on the Christian mythos, one must first disprove the power of other deities. Can one deny the power of another faith simply because it is not his own? Adherence to a monotheistic religion, be it Xianity, Judaism or Islam (to name the favourites) expressly denies the existence of any other gods. Yes, in the OT it was accepted that other gods existed (such as Ba'al) but they were always considered false gods, hence the Abraham destroying his fajer's (toit! :D ) idol shop scene. The only proof of another god's lack of existence has ever been the existance of the one true god, I am that is, and that is all that has ever been needed as proof. The power of other faiths has never been in question. :) |
| Lujayne3412-14-04, 10:44 PM | Night and Petroyeska (http://) There have been several good campaign settings which have made use of Christian or Christian-like mythos as its basis. Two settings were created by James Wyatt, a WOTC employee. If you go to his old web pages you will find two proposals and further campaign setting info on these: Night and Petroyeska. Petroyeska simply uses the terms Christian Church to refer to the organized religion. Angels are used as patrons of clerical orders within the church. Clerics are all servants of God and the church but their domain choices are governed by which Angelic Order they are part of. The various Angelic Orders were created by another person and not by Wyatt himself. Night is more subtle in its use of Christian mythos. The god of humans and their closest allies (the PHB races) is Javen (the name comes from the Germanic/Englic spelling of Yahweh or Jehovah). Javen's adversary is called Zovel (from the name Baalzeebub; a name considered by some to be another name for Satan or at the least a demon). Currently the world is under the control of fiends from the Abyss and ruled by a mysterious figure called Night (an evil demi-god or demon prince?). The followers of Javen must hide away and struggle for survival. I am actually very intrigued with this setting and would like to use it sometime in the near future for my own games. Perhaps I will start another thread elsewhere to get input from people on these boards. Another version of Christian mythos makes use of all the Core D&D deities listed in the PHB. Pelor was made to fill the position of the one true god. The other neutral and good deities were "demoted" to patron saints. The evil deities became demon princes. "St. Boccob" is the patron saint of magic. Wizards who are part of the One Church are all members of this order called The Friars' Arcane. "St. Ehlonna" is mother of Pelor's avatar (I cannot remember what he was called) and is also the patron saint along with St. Obad of the created order (nature). Druids are refered to as "western ascetics/monks who are caretakers of the natural order. Wizards and druids also exist outside the church and retain their usual names. They are part of the "old religion". Some are servants of evil others are neutral or even good. Thus providing some religious conflict themes. Clerics of course exist for the various "demon-princes" and this is the major kind of conflict in the world. The demi-human deities listed in the core pantheon are also used as patron saints for their peoples as well. Dwarven priests were characterized as bold war-priests who use this saying, "Today is a good day to die in the service of Pelor." In a fantasy world remember that things can be more black and white than in the real world (and I would suppose vice versa). So killing or maiming creatures that are evil would not be a violation of the mythos. Although Wyatt does emphasize that there is a strong pacifist stream within the Christian tradition. Moreover it must be stated that moral and ethical conflict has been a staple of D&D from the beginning. And the above examples make use of that quite effectively. So there are some things which would be congruent between them and real world Christian ideals and others that would not. Please also note that I am unapologetically a Christian --- A born-again, baptized, spirit-filled, Jesus follower. Also I am a seminary graduate and Christian educator. My current denomination is Southern Baptist. And I would also consider myself to be an evangelical conservative in outlook (to those who know of this kind of distinction among those who call themselves Christians). I also happen to be a gamer both tabletop and computer. I am not saying all this to insult anyone or to start any flame wars and will not respond to such. I say all this just to let readers know where I am coming from in this dicussion :) Night and Petroyeska (http://www.aquela.com/roleplaying/worlds.html) |
| Cravensson12-15-04, 09:34 AM | I think it would be possible to make a setting in D&D based on the cosmology as laid out in the Bible. I even think it would be possible to keep arcane magic in the setting, depending on how it is described. I can see using D&D exactly as written, and just changing the "religion" in the campaign. The Old Testament is full of battles, flashy miracles, and the like, and even in the New Testament you have some pretty amazing stuff going on. Many of the Divine spells in the book are in fact based on depictions of miracles from the Bible (or at least in some religious texts somewhere if not that particular one). Depending on the origin given to Arcane magic in the background of the setting, it might be seen as neutral or even beneficial - since it doesn't exist in the real world, the DM will have to decide where it comes from in the game. |
| StormKnight12-15-04, 10:04 AM | Also, changing labels around is not necessarily a preferable way to resolve situations. Central in one of the most successful novels of this decade is the following thought that ought to be borne in mind: "Fear of a name only increases fear for the thing itself." But its the label that's all the problem isn't it? I mean, look at modern people. We fly. We can view places that are far distant from us. We can cure diseases and mend injuries. We can even strike our foes dead from miles away. How can anyone who considers "magic" as inherently evil possibly accept any of these things? |
| codeman12-15-04, 12:00 PM | i'll go with the kittys and crap |
| Azual12-15-04, 04:25 PM | At any rate, the gods of the D&D pantheon aren't nearly as powerful as the Christian God... they're more on the level of the Valar in Tolkien's Middle-Earth. Um... right. Id say much more Pelor = Ra = Zeus Not really Valar per say anyway, i was watching last Laug '04 and they had Jesus come on and it was HILARIOUS. 'My dad is always a control freak' :D |
| Azual12-15-04, 04:28 PM | as a side note people, i think that you cant outrule gods, the Good will team up with the evil if both's turf is being taken. AKA Don't mess with good ole Vecna(God of Secrets), he can balckmail you, ESPECIALLY when hes working with Pelor. |
| StormKnight12-15-04, 05:25 PM | In order for one to create a monotheistic setting based on the Christian mythos, one must first disprove the power of other deities. Can one deny the power of another faith simply because it is not his own? I'm a bit confused. What do you mean by this? In order to "create a setting", one must do nothing other than define that setting. Its a fictional setting - it can be anything you want. If you want cheese worshipped in your setting, you can do it. |
| Rilgar Esedarius12-15-04, 09:16 PM | In my opinion, Christians trying to tell people that D&D is "evil" is like trying to push their religion on someone, which I don't think is right. Besides, if the Christians think it's evil, who cares? They don't have to play it. So, in general, Who gives a crap? Most of my friends in my group are atheist, but who cares? I don't really have a religion, so who cares? Sorry, I rant...... |
| james bierly12-16-04, 03:20 PM | I too am a Christian who sees no problem with DnD as is... DnD is fiction, not reality. All the 'Christian Alternatives' I've seen are essentially the same as DnD, only you have to say a bible verse to get your magical effects or somesuch. If you want a more Christian DnD game, incorporate more Christian ideas in your campaigns- self-sacrifice, good vs. evil, love vs. hate, etc. |
| atheolos12-17-04, 05:38 PM | I think there should be an equivalant of D&D. Instead of using magic, you could use a different term, such as power. THis could allow many people who couldn't normally play D&D play. Name it Castles & Angels or something. What do ya'll think? 1) There are already several options available. 2) I think it is superflous (read: stupid), but lots of people think DnD is satanic, so you could just use the d20 system and call it castles and angels and no one would know the difference. For the record I've studied theology at a bible school, and I know my bible pretty well. DnD isn't "evil" or "satanic". Yes, it talks about demons and angels and such, but doesn't the bible too? It's also violent, but nothing even close to the old testament. (God commands the proto Israelites to commit genocide, murder everyone in the city of AI, etc.) It's no different than the Lord of the Rings, and no one I know calls that classic satanic. if you've established that there's only one god in your campeign world, wouldn't saint worship be considered idolatry? *laughs* |
| shakedown4712-17-04, 06:33 PM | I also feel, like many others have said, that there is no need for a "christian" version of D&D. To think so also implies that there is a need for a Hindu version, a buddhist version, a sikh version, a shinto version, etc. Seems like a lot of work to me. Some posters have said that in their games, some of the christian players will worship someone called "God" because they feel uncomfortable playing a character who does not worhsip Earth's christian god. I personally would refuse to play with these people for two main reasons: 1. I am a devout fan of classic fantasy, and the belief in only one singular, nameless diety (though not the worship of) is not in keeping with my understanding or appreciation of that genre. In other words, it wouldn't fit into any of the campaigns I play or would be interested in playing. 2. These people obviously blur the lines between fantasy and reality too much, and personally I can't stand these sorts of people. Besides being potentially dangerous (out of game outbursts for in-game situations, etc.) they would probably be really annoying, constantly talking about D&D out of session (which I can't stand) or griping about how unrealistic the campaign world is compared to the real world, or even vice versa if they were really that deranged. In short, anyone who thinks there is a need for a christian version of D&D just shouldn't play the game and probably needs psychiatric help. This isn't to say that people who want to play in a monotheistic, no-magic campaign are this way. Of course they aren't (necessarily). But people who are so scared of words on paper and made up situations probably can't handle the game. |
| Callista12-17-04, 08:50 PM | About half my group is like that--we're based in a Christian college--and they're really not that bad. Unless you're playing a cleric (and only those who are okay with putting down "Moradin" or whatever on their sheets do that, anyway), your character can be an atheist for all the game cares (FR excepted, and even then it's possible if not strategially wise). I suppose with epic-level games it's different. You're actually interacting with the deities at those high levels. But... Well, the way I tell it to my players: The D&D gods are neither omnipotent, omniscient, or necessarily good; so they are not nearly at the power level of the Christian God (or any monotheistic deity, I think). Therefore, if you want, you can simply treat them as very powerful beings, on the level of Michael, Lucifer, or Tolkien's Valar, who may be worshipped as deities, can grant spells, but are not, strictly speaking, gods. With level-headed players (of any religion; I can see other followers of monotheistic religions--Judaism and Islam, probably, having the same problem), that's all the explanation you need. Chances are, they leave the "deity" space blank, forego resurrection if they're in FR, and eventually come to understand what you already know: It's just a game, and no more traitorous to one's faith than writing, directing, and acting in a play where the characters worship, say, Zeus. And if they don't--hey, is it really so reality-bending if the character has "God" down on his Deity line, but doesn't, in-game, revere any deity at all? Not for us, either RP-wise or mechanics-wise. Like most here, I don't think you need a Christian campaign setting; though a historical Middle-Ages monotheistic-plus-magic setting might be interesting, just for variety. The sheer amount of variations you'd need to make, though, is really prohibitive. Of course, many DMs do that amount of modification and more when creating their campaign setting; so, hey, if it floats your boat, go for it. I do wonder how you manage to answer the question: "How do evil clerics get their spells?" Because, somehow, you have to have an evil, powerful being capable of granting those spells... and though you may not call it a deity (like my group doesn't), it'll have the powers of a D&D deity--though not nearly the powers of a monotheistic religion's God. Whatever you do, though, Don't Offend People... even if you can't see where they're coming from, or if their ideas seem silly to you. It's just a game; and their beliefs and your friendships are so much more important than a game, however much you enjoy playing. |
| Ruskie12-18-04, 04:39 AM | Well, the way I tell it to my players: The D&D gods are neither omnipotent, omniscient, or necessarily good; so they are not nearly at the power level of the Christian God (or any monotheistic deity, I think). Therefore, if you want, you can simply treat them as very powerful beings, on the level of Michael, Lucifer, or Tolkien's Valar, who may be worshipped as deities, can grant spells, but are not, strictly speaking, gods. How about telling them this- D&D gods AREN'T REAL!!! Omni-this, Omni-that - save yourself the trouble. I am a Christian, grown up playing D&D with other Christians, and it sucks when I'm reminded why so many people roll their eyes when I say I'm Christian. Tell your players God has better things to do than worry about you playing a game based purely in fiction. |
| Callista12-18-04, 05:12 AM | It isn't that we think they're real, or even that we're really worshipping fictitious gods if we pretend our characters do. We know that--we're college students, for goodness sakes; and we're smarter than that. However, some Christians (or Muslims, Jews... whatever) have qualms about pretending to be a character that worships fictitious gods, for the same reason some people have qualms about playing an Evil character who tortures, maims, rapes, et cetera: It takes all the joy out of the game for them. They would rather play a hero, doing things they think are good and right. Well, for some people, disloyalty to their religion comes into that same category: Evil. And they don't like pretending to do something they'd die before they'd do in real life. For some people dedicated to a religion, it's just not fun to pretend they're worshipping some other god; their religion is just too important to them. It's like asking someone who absolutely hates racism, to play a character who's prejudiced against, say, halflings. For a good number of people you'd ask to do that, it just takes all the fun out of the game for them. I agree that these folks are taking it a bit too far; but I also respect their viewpoint. "Just a game" needs to be a common phrase in such discussions. And, really, is it such a huge modification to allow players not to role-play dedication to a D&D god? Even in FR, where that means resurrection is near-impossible, you can still keep that "Deity" space blank. (DM should warn the player of the consequences, of course; and the player should be willing to accept permanent death when it happens.) Accomodating people's beliefs is important. You keep rape out of the game for a victim of sexual abuse; you keep racism out of the game for someone who's been kicked around by white supremacists--and you work with someone who's uncomfortable with pretending to worship a fake god. Is it that hard, really? Is D&D so important that you have to walk over people's beliefs, just because you don't hold those beliefs as extremely as they do? |
| Ruskie12-20-04, 03:12 AM | However, some Christians (or Muslims, Jews... whatever) have qualms about pretending to be a character that worships fictitious gods, for the same reason some people have qualms about playing an Evil character who tortures, maims, rapes, et cetera: It takes all the joy out of the game for them... For some people dedicated to a religion, it's just not fun to pretend they're worshipping some other god; their religion is just too important to them. It's like asking someone who absolutely hates racism, to play a character who's prejudiced against, say, halflings... And, really, is it such a huge modification to allow players not to role-play dedication to a D&D god? Even in FR, where that means resurrection is near-impossible, you can still keep that "Deity" space blank. (DM should warn the player of the consequences, of course; and the player should be willing to accept permanent death when it happens.) Accomodating people's beliefs is important. You keep rape out of the game for a victim of sexual abuse; you keep racism out of the game for someone who's been kicked around by white supremacists--and you work with someone who's uncomfortable with pretending to worship a fake god. Is it that hard, really? Is D&D so important that you have to walk over people's beliefs, just because you don't hold those beliefs as extremely as they do? Yeah... OK... I think you're Politically Correcting D&D to death... You Asked- "Is D&D so important that you have to walk over people's beliefs, just because you don't hold those beliefs as extremely as they do?" No- I play D&D as opposed to a hundred other games because I am comfortable with it. Is your belief so important that D&D should change its format to suit the needs of the few over the millions who enjoy it? Are you saying D&D should also print versions of their game in Jewish, Islamic, Buddist, Atheistic... versions as well? Remember, D&D is world-wide, and Christianity is a minority. One of my favorite characters was thief. It was fun. I would never, nor would I want to- hold up a gas station. Why don't you just modify a D&D book to suit your own group's needs? If not, there are a TON of other games out there that would you can play. I'm not trying to sound harsh, but there's a lot to consider when publishing a purely Christian line. |
| SammasterT12-20-04, 03:41 AM | Adherence to a monotheistic religion, be it Xianity, Judaism or Islam (to name the favourites) expressly denies the existence of any other gods. I'm not exactly a Rabbi, but I'm pretty sure that nothing in the OT or any other Jewish holy scripture denies the existence of any other gods. The god of the OT is the god of the Jews. The OT is about the relationship of the Jews with their god. Only once someone took the OT and attempted to give it universal value did the bigotry of the "chosen race" and the "one and only" begin to emerge. There can be only one!!! LOL :rolleyes: |
| Joni-san12-20-04, 11:35 AM | *Snip**Snip* The proof of Gods lack of existence has been the existance of the Cthulhu Mythos and that is all that has ever been needed as proof. The power of other faiths is nonexistent as our faith is the only true one IÄ IÄ Cthulhu Fh'thagn IÄ IÄ!. :P :tongue: |
| Roxlimn12-20-04, 01:10 PM | Creating a Christian Campaign line would be an unmitigated disaster. The entire reason that D&D is polytheistic is ironically because the most powerful religions in the world aren't. Creating a game that mimics real world religion would attract the attention and inevitably the control of said religion and then all hell would break loose. Figuratively speaking. |
| Korhal IV12-20-04, 03:12 PM | Old Testament d20 has already been released. :D As a Christian, I don't care to impose my religion on my gaming group. While I might toy with it if my gaming group were all Christians (the thought of a Biblical game appeals to me on occasion), my current gaming group consists of 1 Catholic (me), 1 Lutheran, 1 agnostic, 1 Jew, 1 Hindu, 1 Baptist, 1 atheist. We are...multicultural, to say the least. ;) |
| Lujayne3412-20-04, 03:47 PM | Creating a Christian Campaign line would be an unmitigated disaster. The entire reason that D&D is polytheistic is ironically because the most powerful religions in the world aren't. Creating a game that mimics real world religion would attract the attention and inevitably the control of said religion and then all hell would break loose. Figuratively speaking. Are you saying that a campaign world (homebrew) that uses a Christian mythos is unworkable? Or are you saying that creating a game system line would be disaster? Either way I have to disagree. There are quite a few game systems already in place that are quite successful in their own markets. Although they might never expand beyond a certain segment they do meet the market needs within that segment; at least enough to meet their profit margins since they continue. Some examples of this are Dragonraid and Holy Land. These two are on going in content development and appeal to certain segment of the gaming community. You and I may never really utilize such gaming systems since we are pretty happy using the ones we have. I do have Dragonraid, however it is a bit too simplistic for my tastes. On the issue of a D&D campaign utilizing a Christian mythos there are some really good options. I have mentioned at least 3 of them in one of my earlier posts in this very thread. I think that there are enough "Christian" gamers and game writers within the D&D community at large that can produce content worthy of both gaming and Christianity. But that is just my opinion. |
| MissCalculation12-20-04, 04:56 PM | Isn't Forgotten Realms already a monothestic setting? With Ao, the undefined, omnipotent god of all other "gods"? You just have to modify this setting a bit. Change the demi-gods to angels (cherubim, seraphim etc.). For the "evil"-gods, there are also the fallen angels like Lucifer. Insert some details like the purgatory, the Last Judgement, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the Avatars of Ao, et voilà, there you are... (Nevertheless, I don't understand the need for a christian D&D setting... ) |
| Kar-Vermin12-20-04, 06:40 PM | I'm not exactly a Rabbi, but I'm pretty sure that nothing in the OT or any other Jewish holy scripture denies the existence of any other gods. Jewish, yes. Rabbi, no. Not even close (pass the bacon, please :) ) The OT, to give one example, specifically mentions the gods of the ancient Egyptians as being real, although it also states that God laid the smackdown on them (in somewhat different language, of course). Happy Religion. |
| Ma'ElKoth12-20-04, 11:40 PM | (Nevertheless, I don't understand the need for a christian D&D setting... ) Anything to help refute the "All gamers are bloodthirsty satanic cultists" stereotype. Why not? Whatever floats your boat. Just my 2 cp, but it's amazing how civil and... um... not-shut-down this thread has remained. (The 'strators have a hair trigger when it comes to shutting down religion-based threads. All it usually takes is one ass with an axe to grind either way.) |
| Roxlimn12-21-04, 05:23 AM | Are you saying that a campaign world (homebrew) that uses a Christian mythos is unworkable? Or are you saying that creating a game system line would be disaster? I'm saying that it's dangerous. One way or another such a campaign line would tread dangerously close to heresy or blasphemy and you would have to work closely with religious groups just to avoid massive backlash. It's certainly fortunate that I've never heard of Dragonraid or Holy Land and doubly great that no one in the Vatican gives it serious thought. Even so, I'm a bit nervous that such campaign lines exist. It's all too likely to come down to a repeat of D&D demonization. |
| MissCalculation12-21-04, 06:02 AM | Anything to help refute the "All gamers are bloodthirsty satanic cultists" stereotype. Why not? Whatever floats your boat. Sure, I agree with Roxlim. Playing God in game would be blasphemy, but if you just mention, that God is watching, it should be no problem. You just have to explain to them, that D&D is not far from real world. Magic is just another weapon and you can choose how to use it. Every action has consequences, but the difference from the real world is, that you have the possibilities to watch and follow the consequences at once. Try to sell D&D to them as a game with educational function. It's just like playing "Mom, Dad and Child" or other childhood games, but just as "extended Version" and with a person who controls the game. |
| jack7712-30-04, 08:46 PM | I am running a thread which addresses many of these same issues. I ran across this thread while doing research and found the exchange very interesting. Because it is a discussion of very similar issues as regards my thread and because I have several projects underway right now which are related to these discussions and ideas I would like to invite any and all of you to visit my thread and give me your ideas, comments, suggestions and feedback. My thread is called Religious and Moral Issues in D&D and it is on the What's a Player to Do Forum. I'd be interested in your opinions and comments and criticisms. Please feel free to visit and give me your opinions. I also have several projects discussed there which you may comment upon. Jack |
| Dragonsbane131312-30-04, 09:21 PM | Well, first off, saying D&D is "non-Christian" is down right absurd! Now, I'm Catholic, and I'm not sure about other forms of Christianity, but at least the way I was raised, (one very religious parent and two grandparents), there is nothing wrong with D&D. Its just like those people who had book burnings for Harry Potter. My priest admitted to reading the Harry Potter books and says that there is nothing wrong with reading about magic (believing you actually have magical powers is another thing) ;) I say, leave D&D the way it is, and if you have a problem with it, you shouldnt play it at all (Dont just change "magic", thats wrong). Theres my two copper pieces. :dragon: |
| killcode12-30-04, 09:31 PM | I only read the first post, and "sort of" skimmed some of the other posts. I am a Christian also, but, most Christians I've met take things a little too far. Not letting their kids watch anything with magic in it, any thing that is not Christian, etc... My uncle won't let his son play D&D cause he thinks it is evil, and it has "demons" in it. This game, along with everything else that mostly has anything to do with magic, is "fiction." Definition of "fiction" - 1. An imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented. 2. Content is produced by the imagination and is not necessarily based on fact. This means that stuff in D&D doesn't exist, it is completly "untrue" and "made-up" game meant for people to play and be awed by the adventure of being in this "fictional" wrold. I do not mean to sound mean or "****** off," but, I am getting tired of my relatives and other people saying that D&D and other things like it should be banned from the world, and the person who made it be sent down to hell to rot and burn misrebly. If you do not like the content or the story of this very interesting and great game, then why don't you go and by the a bible board game and call it good. Again, if I sound like I'm falmming, or I'm mad at anyone, I do not mean to sound like it. (I'm still mad at the people who say that D&D is evil and all that though.) |
| Raziel_Brokodar01-04-05, 06:22 PM | Christian alternative??... oh.... for strong christians...hmm..... BAH! there's nothing wrong with Dnd! |
| Mootilator01-04-05, 07:26 PM | "I'm a bit confused. What do you mean by this? In order to "create a setting", one must do nothing other than define that setting. Its a fictional setting - it can be anything you want. If you want cheese worshipped in your setting, you can do it." Stormnight...you aren't alone. That was pretty absurd, no matter how you took it, be it from a philosophical or gaming point of view. |
| TiggerLilly01-04-05, 08:34 PM | Whats the point?? I mean really, the only reason why some christians dont agree with DnD is because they either: a. havent even read anything about it and are closeminded or b. have read it and just doesnt like it. Im not saying this to be offending or anything, cuz i know some christians who are closeminded. So im sorry if i have offended someone. But yeah... there really isnt any point in doing an alternative when the first is just fine. |
| jack7701-04-05, 10:17 PM | From my point of view it is not so much to condemn the current version, but to provide an alternative which allows Christian players, or those who want to play Christian characters even if they are not Christians to play a version which is geared towards the sort of moral milieu they desire. That is, for instance, instead of just coming up with different world settings which include variants of this magical item or that particular kingdom, to rather offer a broader ideal of what constitutes a version. Or let me pose the question this way, if it is fine to have different world versions such as Eberron or Greywacke or whatnot, why not a Christian version in which Christians could comfortably game (or even non-Christians who would like to experience a game which explores Christian morality within the setting of the game)? The point is not to abolish current versions but to provide versions that particular markets would enjoy as feeling more natural to themselves, just as some players enjoy Greywacke more than Eberron or whatever other version is offered for their own personal reasons. Let me use another analogy. I assume most of us drive cars. Do we all drive the same type cars, or even the same type vehicles? I drive an import, but I'm certainly not for abolishing domestic brands. But then again I wouldn't expect someone who drives a domestic brand to demand we stop imports. The idea is not to prevent, but to augment. Competition is good, and necessary for growth. If the idea is unpopular then it will not be successful, if the idea is successful then it is likely to not only improve the Christian version or versions but all other versions as well. There is a very big difference between saying something is good, or bad, and saying it is perfect as is and is not open to improvement in one way or another. By the way, I created a Christian version and my players all play in it, and I couldn't agree more that it is fictional, as was the original game. But remember no matter what is done in life somebody is not gonna like it. Even men like Jesus faced a great deal of misunderstanding and condemnation from people who if they had only understood him better might have been his allies. Do the best you can and sometimes you just have to chalk it up to living that not everyone is going to understand you about everything up front. Time and experience often changes things. Not always perhaps, but often. Why I bet many of you gents and ladies who think you might not like a Christian version of D&D might actually enjoy it very much after playing it (of course a great deal would depend upon how it was presented I reckon). Not everyone, but many. Not every, but often. One never knows until one tries. Jack P.S.: you're welcome to discuss the same type of issues in more detail on my thread if you like. |
| SammasterT01-04-05, 10:41 PM | Why I bet many of you gents and ladies who think you might not like a Christian version of D&D might actually enjoy it very much after playing it (of course a great deal would depend upon how it was presented I reckon). Not everyone, but many. Not every, but often. One never knows until one tries. As a person who practices a modernized, urbanized form of elder Teutonic belief, I don't think I'd have much of a problem playing in such a world. I might even enjoy it, depending of course on how it is presented. If someone portrayed my ancestors as sub-human orcii who worship things of evil and ignorance -- as a number of fantasy products do in fact -- I'm probably going ot have some degree of problem. But really, Teutonic belief made a significant, errr, "contribution" to Western Christianity. And while this fusion of belief and culutre might well have been more a matter of "for worse", than "for better", for both religions, it still produced a suit that, admittedly, is half-comfortable. Of course, the idea that a game supplement should be produced that is Christian in flavour seems pointless to me. While DnD is, in many subtle and not so subtle ways, inherently "in tune" with Teutonic belief, having been originally conceived by folk of Teutonic descent who were greatly inspired by the myths and legends of NW Europe, I have seen attempts at Viking Handbooks and the like, and in every case I have found them to provide poor, stereotypical pictures of the culture and beliefs. VERY poor teaching/learning tools. I would be better off teaching a workshop or shaping my own Teutonic world. Chances are a Christian DnD supplement would fall equally short of the thoughtful insight Christains would equally expect. In fact, in the case of Christianity, such a product would be bound to offend, strongly. And it would be bound to offend other Christians the most. Of course, to just create your own home world that way, and enter into conversations with others who do ... thats cool .... |
| TiggerLilly01-05-05, 12:29 AM | To me i dont see a point in changing dnd for christians. I mean someone can make their own world where whatever happens they can control... so why does there need to be a modified version? |
| jack7701-05-05, 02:01 PM | You make a valid point of course that much depends upon presentation. Just because there was a Christian version of D&D doesn't mean it would be a good Christian version, or even enjoyable to Christians. It would have to be a good version in addition to being Christian. That is, take a Christian allegory like the Lord of the Rings: it was not just a Christian allegory, it was a very good Christian allegory, it was artistic, it was open ended, it was spiritual (in the best sense of the term), it was entertaining, it was multi-faceted. In short it was more than a Christian allegory just to be a Christian allegory, it fulfilled many functions and executed most all of those functions very well. So presentation is indeed immensely important. A Christian version of D&D, while fulfilling many functions which might be deemed purely Christian would also have to fulfill many wider spiritual and practical and artistic and even entertainment functions as well. To be good to Christians it would also have to be good to most others as well. And to be truly good to most Christians, it would also have to be truly good. A difficult, indeed, but not altogether impossible job. It happens all the time in literature and art and I can see no logical reason for games to be an exception. Of course it would take a sort of period of adjustment for people to get used to the idea, but then again, most everything does. Many Christians initially took offense at both Tolkien and C.S. Lewis for their fictional works, some even called them anti-Christian. Now most Christians consider them superb Christian allegorical writers, among other things. Time and experience exchange things if you're good enough at what you do and your point is well enough made. But it always takes time. Every good idea is a good idea after it succeeds. Every good idea is strange, or impossible, before it succeeds. As for your point Tiggerlilly (and don't think I'm being a smartaleck) but have you ever played in a Christian version of D&D? (Hopefully it was well made, if not then I can understand your objections, but just remember, not every car is a dud because the first car one gets is a lemon.) Anyway if you have not then may I offer you the following comments to consider. Perhaps your objection is simply because either you have not: a. even played such a version or b. simply don't like the idea for reasons that have nothing to do with such a version. Just think about it. Jack |
| Murr-Quan Lord #201-05-05, 02:10 PM | The Lord of the Rings was not a Christian allegory. Tolkien hated allegories. His stated goal was just to write a really good story. I'd still consider it a Christian story, though, because it was written by a Christian and used Christian themes. To wit: loyalty, redemption, the nature of sin, and the battle of good versus evil. More than anything else, the way that this battle was conducted and how each side was portrayed helped to define LotR. In that sense, I'd say any time you have a Christian DM, you have a Christian game. ^.^ So long as she follows her conscience when writing it. |
| crazysamaritan01-05-05, 02:10 PM | There's one more objection, Tiggerlilly, and that's the presence of magic. Sorry, that's not correct. I mean the bible specifically says that sorcery (casting spells) is evil. Therefore, if you play a wizard, you are pretending to be evil. Many christians don't like the idea of pretending to be evil. That's the biggest block I can see for coming up with a Christian alternative DnD. EDIT: M-Q, read some of the history. Tolkin was friends with C.S. Lewis. In fact, Tolkin argued with Lewis on their books. He didn't like the obvious allegory that Lewis made. Instead he said that it should be subtle. I gues Tolkin was subtle then, wasn't he? You missed it. (So did I) |
| Mootilator01-05-05, 02:48 PM | "I'm not exactly a Rabbi, but I'm pretty sure that nothing in the OT or any other Jewish holy scripture denies the existence of any other gods." I think there is a difference in definitions. When the Judeo-Christian God says "There is none like me". Here's a link (http://www.topical-bible-studies.org/32-0005.htm) to some different verses of this nature, but listed below is one example of such a declaration, and not even close to being out of context: Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." But how does one get around one of the 10 Commandments, Exodus 20:3, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."? Well, money and sex can become gods to people. People can become their own god to an extent. Can Satan be considered a god? Sure...if he is the focus of worship. It's not hard to reconcile...it appears to be saying there are none other that share the essense of being God...eternal from both sides of the date line, totally powerful, with no peers. If you choose to declare, say, Batman as your god, it is irrelevant if Batman is real or not. Same goes if you declare Alan Alda your god. He's real, of course, but he is only a god based on name alone, and not on the fundamental nature of how God defines Himself. If God exists and He indeed IS omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, then it seems to me that He might just have a right to make such determinations. I'm not looking for a debate on if God is real or not, because this is not the place for it. I merely wish to clarify what I viewed as a misconception to make sure what Christians believe is represented accurately. |
| Murr-Quan Lord #201-05-05, 02:51 PM | EDIT: M-Q, read some of the history. Tolkin was friends with C.S. Lewis. In fact, Tolkin argued with Lewis on their books. He didn't like the obvious allegory that Lewis made. Instead he said that it should be subtle. I gues Tolkin was subtle then, wasn't he? You missed it. (So did I) The quote I heard said that he hated anything that even resembled allegory, which might explain why he was asking C.S. Lewis to tone it down in his books. ^.^ I don't remember perfectly, though. I do remember Tolkien saying that he simply meant to tell a good story, and that the Lord of the Rings is not an allegory. |
| crazysamaritan01-05-05, 03:06 PM | He didn't like Aslan=Jesus (too obvious) but he did use allegory (ring=technology). Like I said, the Christian influence is a bit hard for me to see, certainally not much direct, but I do believe it's there. |
| jack7701-05-05, 05:45 PM | The Lord of the Rings was not a Christian allegory. Tolkien hated allegories. His stated goal was just to write a really good story. Murr, You're quite correct about your use of the term allegory as Tolkien described it in reference to his works. Tolkien disliked blatantly obvious associations as they often prevented one from making more interesting, open-ended and subtle (as the Samaritan would say) associations between related things. He was after all a philologist and loved both the origins of words and the way definitions changed over time as more and more complex associations were added to a word. Tolkien often did say he didn't like other people calling his work allegorical (usually in reference to warfare and whether the War represented WWII or WWI or so forth). However I was using the term merely as a sort of general reference because if I had said the story is a Christian story many non-Christians who didn't understand or have any background in Christianity wouldn't have understood what I meant. But, I cede the point. Tolkien did not prefer the term allegorical in reference to many aspects of his work. He also did however make statements that the LOTR was what he would have imagined Christianity would have looked like imagined as a Myth. Which is a very interesting statement all by itself. Sorry, that's not correct. I mean the bible specifically says that sorcery (casting spells) is evil. Therefore, if you play a wizard, you are pretending to be evil. Many Christians don't like the idea of pretending to be evil. That's correct Sama, (haven't we met before?) but the word sorcery in Hebrew has special connotations, usually involved in somehow attempting to usurp the powers of God by force. That is witchcraft foretelling the future which involved forcibly raising the dead (Witch of Endor) was forbidden, as an example, even if it worked. Foretelling the future by means of the Urim and Thummin or by mystical means of direct contact between God and a Prophet were not forbidden, they were encouraged and regularly practiced. I guess it depends on how one defines magic. One could use the term magic to include all forms of doing the extraordinary, even ones designed to do evil or create evil and harm, or one could use it more narrowly. Or one can use it as I do in my world setting campaigns (this is just a suggestion, my method of working the problem) by dividing it into intent. I personally use the Greek term Thaumaturgy (miracle working) for magic that would be considered beneficial and for lack of a better term Godly, and other terms for different kinds of magic, some of which are evil or selfish or destructive in nature. But you're right Samaritan most Christians would probably not enjoy the playing of a distinctly evil character (devoted to evil) because we instinctively suspect that evil leads to no good end, that is, evil characters end badly. And live badly as well. But how does one get around one of the 10 Commandments, Exodus 20:3, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."? Well, money and sex can become gods to people. People can become their own god to an extent. Can Satan be considered a god? Sure...if he is the focus of worship. It's not hard to reconcile...it appears to be saying there are none other that share the essense of being God...eternal from both sides of the date line, totally powerful, with no peers. If you choose to declare, say, Batman as your god, it is irrelevant if Batman is real or not. Same goes if you declare Alan Alda your god. He's real, of course, but he is only a god based on name alone, and not on the fundamental nature of how God defines Himself. If God exists and He indeed IS omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, then it seems to me that He might just have a right to make such determinations. This seems a fairly good statement of the differences between a god and God, Moot. (your name however does not reflect the depth of your point. That is, it's not a moot point.) I recently heard an Orthodox Priest say, "God is the is-ness of is." I don' think most Christians or most Jews would misunderstand the statement. But it is one of those things, like magic, that must be addressed in any Christian version of D&D. You've got to define the parameters of what you mean for people to both understand and enjoy the experience. If thaumatirugical powers or spiritual powers are considered a type of magic, or one type of magic, then there is nothing to overcome as regards magic since both the OT prophets and Jesus and his Apostles and Disciples were renown for wonder-working. Then the only thing left as regards to magic is the overcoming of evil magic with good force or power, no matter the term you use for that force. Like I said, the Christian influence is a bit hard for me to see, certainally not much direct, but I do believe it's there. Let me posit this idea, as my daughters and I just happen to be rereading the trilogy as part of their studies. I see the entire Ring Quest as an Obverse Quest to the Quest of the Holy Grail. In the Grail Quest the quest was to Save the Land, restore the Fellowship of the Knights and the Table, redeem from sin and to spread purity and Godliness back into a Realm that had lost its way. This is accomplished by seeking the Grail and returning it to it's proper place where all can enjoy the benefits of it and in the end only one finds it, but because he does the whole Table and Lands enjoys the renewal. In the Ring Quest the quest is to undo evil. that is the Ring is a reverse image of the Grail not a thing to be sought and Returned but a thing to be returned and Undone. The world will be saved not by acquiring or using the Ring, as is the case with the Grail, but will be saved by the destruction of the Ring. The Ring is the Holy Grail tuned inside out, not a Cup of Life sanctified by Christ, but a Circlet of Death corrupted by an Evil Lord. You still have Galahad and Parsifal (Frodo and Sam) and you still have Arthur (Aragorn) and a whole host of the other characters, including the Betrayer Lancelot (Boromir-who like Lancelot eventually redeems himself), and Merlin (Gandalf) but the intention of the Quest and the motivations driving the characters are in reverse. Salvation is not obtained by Restoring the Good, but by destroying the Evil. It's a reverse play on the play. Anyway that's my opinion and one of my interpretations anyway. I apologize if it does not seem directly related to the CD&D discussion (as people on my own thread often call the thing for Christian D&D), but I think it shows that there is more than one way to skin a cat. And more than one way to go about both D&D generally and even a CD&D version more specifically. By the way, one last point on the Fellowship. The absence of the Grail led to the dissolution of the Round Table and it's recovery led to the renewal of the surviving Fellowship. The presence of the Ring led to the dissolution of the Fellowship and it's destruction led to the eventual Renewal of the Survivors. Another one of those mirror reflections. Well, I've enjoyed the conversation a great deal. And the subject matter. I have a project on my own thread called the 12 Spiritual Labors if anyone would like to contribute. Pay no attention to those philosophers in the corner off on a tangent. They get that way sometimes. Jack. |
| The WarOverlord01-06-05, 07:41 AM | There's one more objection, Tiggerlilly, and that's the presence of magic. Sorry, that's not correct. I mean the bible specifically says that sorcery (casting spells) is evil. Therefore, if you play a wizard, you are pretending to be evil. Many christians don't like the idea of pretending to be evil. That's the biggest block I can see for coming up with a Christian alternative DnD. EDIT: M-Q, read some of the history. Tolkin was friends with C.S. Lewis. In fact, Tolkin argued with Lewis on their books. He didn't like the obvious allegory that Lewis made. Instead he said that it should be subtle. I gues Tolkin was subtle then, wasn't he? You missed it. (So did I) More specifically the Church saying sorcery is evil so you don't practice it so when the Priest tells you you have to live a specific way you can't stuff a magic Missile up his Hiney. What is a Miracle if not Magic? Does what Jesus supposedly did make him the Son of Satan instead of God then? In actuality the criticizing was about "False prophets" pretending to "read the bones and such" and tricking people into believing that they have powers or "the path to enlightenment" so they can rip them off later. In truth "Monotheisim Campaign" would be all tha is left after "Cleansing wars"/"Crusadess" successfully wiping out other religions It should be noted that no gods are needed for there to be religions and visa-versa. |
| NehpetsTtocs01-06-05, 07:53 AM | I had written an essay length response, but after thinking about this, the only response to DnD that matters is yours. If you feel the game is wrong, then don't play it. If you have fun with it and see no problem, play all you want. The only person you have to convince is yourself. |
| Mootilator01-06-05, 10:31 AM | Exodus 7:8-12.... 8 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, 9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent. 10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. 12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. Pretty clear cut that the sorcerers did, in fact, work sorcery. If you don't believe the Bible, then arguing whether this really happened or not is not the point...but it is a pretty indefensible point to say that the Bible does not acknowledge magic, sorcery, whatever. |
| SammasterT01-06-05, 01:14 PM | The quote I heard said that he hated anything that even resembled allegory, which might explain why he was asking C.S. Lewis to tone it down in his books. ^.^ I don't remember perfectly, though. I do remember Tolkien saying that he simply meant to tell a good story, and that the Lord of the Rings is not an allegory. Whatever the LotR Christian infleunce, it is well known that Tolkein drew many elements of his tale directly from Teutonic myth and legend. Something which, as a Professor of English Lit., he would have been well aware of. Not saying that is the only influence, but I can watch LotR over and over and not once have anything "Christian", or even nonEnglish, intrude upon my appreciation of it. |
| SammasterT01-06-05, 01:32 PM | I think there is a difference in definitions. When the Judeo-Christian God says "There is none like me". Here's a link (http://www.topical-bible-studies.org/32-0005.htm) to some different verses of this nature, but listed below is one example of such a declaration, and not even close to being out of context: Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Indeed. I suppose he did say those things. But there is this thing called "CONTEXT". One must understand WHO Yahweh was speaking to, WHEN he spoke that to them, and WHY. What does the relationship of the rest of mankind with their respective deities, what does that have to do with the Jews and their relationship with Yahweh? Were the Jews a proselytizing lot? Are they? No. Definitely not. Its an internal matter. And what Yahweh is saying to the Jews has nothing to due with nonJews. If only other folk of the book were so wise. He's real, of course, but he is only a god based on name alone, and not on the fundamental nature of how God defines Himself. If God exists and He indeed IS omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, then it seems to me that He might just have a right to make such determinations. On how "god" defines himself? So if Alan Alda defined himself as omnipotent, et al. then, despite all of the evidence to the contrary, thats that?!?!?! I see. Well, for one thing, "God" is, and "gods" are definitively Teutonic. We been calling the "Almighty" by that name, amongst others, for well over 3000 years. On how one defines themselves ........... :confused: |
| Mootilator01-06-05, 02:51 PM | Indeed. I suppose he did say those things. But there is this thing called "CONTEXT". One must understand WHO Yahweh was speaking to, WHEN he spoke that to them, and WHY. What does the relationship of the rest of mankind with their respective deities, what does that have to do with the Jews and their relationship with Yahweh? Were the Jews a proselytizing lot? Are they? No. Definitely not. So basically Yahweh is a liar and a braggart? He's just a localized deity? So when the Jewish scripture states that God created the heavens and the earth, it's just put there not meant to be taken literally because it might step on the toes of other folks gods, be they fictitious or not? I think your mind has become so absorbed by the political correctness of modern times that you actually think that the Jewish scripture is sensitive towards other folks religious beliefs. It is not, in any way. So you think this scripture just kinda leaked out and was never intended to be seen by gentiles? Do you even know of the foundations of Judaism, which was not based on "blood" race at all, but the faith of one man, Abraham? Faith. Remember that. Relationship with Yahweh is based on faith, whether you live in Israel or the dark side of the moon. God's people are those that honor and worship Him, not a group of people who happen to be of a certain ethnicity. When you ask if Jews were a proselytizing lot, are you not including Peter, James, John, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke the Physician, Andrew, Jude, etc, etc? I guess if you don't count the Jewish people that DID proselytize, and proselytize to an extent that they reached most of the known world with the Gospel message, then no, they weren't. Yes, they were Christians. And they were Jews. And they proselytized. A lot. And why wouldn't you? If you believed in something great that made your life better and gave you piece of mind and inner peace, I would question what kind of person you were if you didn't share it with others. Gee, I got something great and my God is so good... but I think I'll keep it to myself despite all the good things He's done because I might offend someone who worships Thor. If I believe with all my heart that your house is going to explode the next time you enter it, should I keep it to myself because it might upset your sensibilities? On how "god" defines himself? So if Alan Alda defined himself as omnipotent, et al. then, despite all of the evidence to the contrary, thats that?!?!?! I think this is one of those situation where people conveniently don't understand something pretty straightforward. But I'll bite. As you pointed out yourself, all the evidence to the contrary would disprove Alan Alda's claims of Godhood. Not so hard, is it? And if you actually read the Alan Alda thing in CONTEXT, you would see that I was saying that a person could make Alan Alda their god, if they wanted to. Not a thing there about him claiming to be God, is there? But if God says that He created the heavens and the earth, He either A) Did it, or B)Didn't do it. He's a liar or He's telling the truth. Simple. Those that have faith in Him believe Him to be truthful. In order to create the heavens and the earth, well, I'm no judge of power, but gosh if that ain't pretty darn powerful. So powerful, in fact, that I'll take His word for it. Well, for one thing, "God" is, and "gods" are definitively Teutonic. We been calling the "Almighty" by that name, amongst others, for well over 3000 years. You remember back when I said how people sometimes act like they don't understand? Well, this isn't one of those times for me. I have no clue as to how what you just said there proves any point at all. Teutonic has something to do with the ancient teutons or german. So the terms God and gods are derived from either the ancient teutonic or german language, and it's a term that has been around for nigh 3000 years. Relevance? On how one defines themselves ........... :confused: Not that hard to understand. The purpose for definition to express the qualities you have. God existed before men. God therefore defines, or gives properties about Himself to those under Him to show He deserves their worship. Not for His own benefit, but so that those under Him can get some idea of what He's all about. Granted, you might be lied to. It is entirely your right to either think of the Bible as lies or truth. Believers, well, believe. |
| SammasterT01-06-05, 04:12 PM | So basically Yahweh is a liar and a braggart? He's just a localized deity? So when the Jewish scripture states that God created the heavens and the earth, it's just put there not meant to be taken literally because it might step on the toes of other folks gods, be they fictitious or not?. And you're one of those benighted savages that believe that one should approach religion like it is science. Apples and oranges my friend. Thanks for creating and justifying aetheism! Yes, they were Christians. Exactly. There is a difference you know. ... but I think I'll keep it to myself despite all the good things He's done because I might offend someone who worships Thor. If I believe with all my heart that your house is going to explode the next time you enter it, should I keep it to myself because it might upset your sensibilities? Well, people like you have been unduly offending "someone who worships Thor" for quite some time now. You were the original backstabbers in fact. So, why would peplpe like you stip being that way now? And I call him Thunor. Scandinavians call him ThorR. Afterall, we speak different languages, and nobody needed to convert anyone too him. As for my house, its fine. There is medication to help people like you. Frith! |
| al2990201-06-05, 05:23 PM | As a Christian who plays D&D, the biggest thing I've seen is that people simply don't understand D&D. Often, they'll allow just about any other RPG, but they've seen so much bad publicity with D&D that they're scared of it. Others believe magic is the problem; they think that (and I don't know how they justify this) pretending to cast spells is somehow wrong. To these people, I say: All right, say magic is wrong; but you've got to ban Cinderella and Santa Claus, too. (Some do, but they're real extremists that the average Christian thinks should lighten up a good bit). My own group has only one small restriction. Personally, I don't mind pretending my characters worship Kord or Pelor or whoever, but some of the players don't feel comfortable declaring that their characters worship gods other than the Christian God. But that's easily enough gotten around; clerics and paladins can be dedicated to an alignment or organization just as easily as a deity; and one of my players has a paladin who simply put down "God" as her deity. We've had no problems, either game-wise or conscience-wise. Perhaps that will change if we ever get to epic levels, where direct interaction with deities becomes much more common. But for now, no one's above 7th or 8th level; so that will be a while yet. At any rate, the gods of the D&D pantheon aren't nearly as powerful as the Christian God... they're more on the level of the Valar in Tolkien's Middle-Earth. I agree with you 100%. Too many people just don't realize what the game is really all about. |
| Benwa01-06-05, 05:48 PM | It's amazing how fast this thread got off topic. IIRC the original poster was only asking for help converting standard D&D to an educational game to be used with others of like faith. I personally think it's an interesting idea. I wouldn't play because I love my sorcerer too much (even though I'm a bible-thumping Xian) but it's an interesting idea. Benwa |
| Mootilator01-06-05, 06:04 PM | And you're one of those benighted savages that believe that one should approach religion like it is science. Apples and oranges my friend. Thanks for creating and justifying aetheism!! Yeah, because God forbid that you approach religion rationally. It should be all convoluted and impossible to comprehend. A true deity makes sure that he/she/it is as ambiguous as possible so that their interaction with their creation can only be understood by artsy types that can take straightforward dialog and make it mysterious and unapproachable by the savages. And I created atheism? Man. I'm older than I thought. Exactly. There is a difference you know. Let's say that Adam Sandler is Jewish. Let's say that Adam Sandler becomes a Christian. Is he no longer a Jewish man? So Jews for Jesus are a bunch of people that spontaneously changed race? That they have no right to call themselves Jews anymore? Not hard to reconcile if you know what you are talking about. The term "Jewish" can mean a descendant of Abraham or a person who adheres to Judaism. Jewish Buddhists exist. Jewish Atheists exist, whether I just invented it or not. And yes, there are Christian Jews. Not hard at all to grasp, unless you really try not to. Well, people like you have been unduly offending "someone who worships Thor" for quite some time now. You were the original backstabbers in fact. So, why would peplpe like you stip being that way now? And I call him Thunor. Scandinavians call him ThorR. Afterall, we speak different languages, and nobody needed to convert anyone too him. As for my house, its fine. There is medication to help people like you. Frith! Wow. I stabbed someone in the back? Oh! That was an overly dramatic generalization. My bad. And I can tell that Thunor, ThorR, etc, was really filling a void in people lives since they gave up worshipping him in droves. Makes sense. It also makes sense that someone can find out about Thor without anyone ever mentioning him. You found out through osmosis, right? No? You read about him somewhere? But couldn't literature that spoke of the virtues of Thor worship be considered a sort of conversion from non-belief to belief throught the medium of the written word? It's all so confusing. |
| Mootilator01-06-05, 07:11 PM | Look SammasterT, I'm not going to expend any more effort on this subject, so respond if you must, but I'm going to make a point not to read it so that this thread doesn't get any more derailed than it already has. We are both passionate about our beliefs and it could go on ad infinitum, and I don't want to be responsible for this thread being locked. Agree to disagree and all that. |
| jack7701-06-05, 09:30 PM | Benwa, how would you address the problem of the Sorcerer if you were developing a Christian version of D&D? (Everyone on my thread just simply calls it CD&D, so for short I'll just say that in the future.) I'm working on that very problem right now. I'd be interested in your opinions. Give them either here or on my thread or you can even send me an email or PM if you wish. Also if you don't mind me asking what is a Bible thumping Xian? Xian is I thought a Chinese term. What is a Bible thumping Xian? Also if you or anyone else were developing such a version how would you go about changing the current character classes or modifying them to make them natural to such a version? I have my own ideas but then again my World setting is our real world so I use real world versions of the Christian Cleric, the Christian Paladin, Hermit, Monk, etc. And real world variant classes for everything else as well such as a Buddhist Monk, Jewish Levite, Sufi Mystic, etc. And magic how would you redefine or recategorize or redesign magic for such a project? How though would you or anyone else go about such a project? Jack |
| MystikalLoneWolf01-06-05, 10:44 PM | Its because of debates like this that makes me glad to be a shiite agnostic. j/k But really, as a non-practicing nondenominational pagan.... oh, wait... As a born again aetheist..... crud, that ain't right either. Im confused now, what was I before I read this thread? I think I was a devout follower of Valan, or was it the Egyptian god of confused beliefs? :D :D :D :D :D :D |
| SammasterT01-06-05, 11:11 PM | Yeah, because God forbid that you approach religion rationally. It should be all convoluted and impossible to comprehend. A true deity makes sure that he/she/it is as ambiguous as possible so that their interaction with their creation can only be understood by artsy types that can take straightforward dialog and make it mysterious and unapproachable by the savages. I would say worshipping a religion that coincides with ones language and culture and cultural metaphor is alot more straightforward than worshipping some the alleged beliefs of some Jew who grew up at the crossroads of a multicultural empire and spoke, what, Aramaic (?) some 2000 odd years ago. Thats about as crpytic and artsy as it gets. Let's say that AdamSandler is Jewish. Let's say that Adam Sandler becomes a Christian. Is he no longer a Jewish man? So Jews for Jesus are a bunch of people that spontaneously changed race? That they have no right to call themselves Jews anymore? Not hard to reconcile if you know what you are talking about. The term "Jewish" can mean a descendant of Abraham or a person who adheres to Judaism. Jewish Buddhists exist. Jewish Atheists exist, whether I just invented it or not. And yes, there are Christian Jews. Not hard at all to grasp, unless you really try not to.. Well, what do you know!! You are aware of the existence of a religion called Judaism, and of its difference from Christianity. And I can tell that Thunor, ThorR, etc, was really filling a void in people lives since they gave up worshipping him in droves. Gave it up in droves? Know much about history or Higher Criticism? Was that when the Pope fabricate a Teutonic version of Catholicism (which still exists to this day and is the reason why "you" speak in terms of Heaven, Hell, Good, Evil, Righteousness, God, soul, et al.), and then offered it along with admission onto the international Roman trading market to a number of wouldbe kings and emperors? And then why the kings had to draft laws and fight wars of opression in order to get his other wise trothful to the death subjects to go along with it? Is that why all of those heresy of the Middle ages sprung into being? You're right. We could go on and on with this. And it really is entirely pointless. |
| Xx Spider xX01-07-05, 12:30 AM | How many : Books - Movies - Video Games - Musical releases - ect. have not been released, or limited in release and/or censored due to religious organizations? If anything, thats oppression by anothers beliefs on a mass population who may very well not share those views. So...do I think anything including D&D should be DEFORMED, TWISTED, DISFIGURED or MUTATED to meet w/anothers religious position? Hell no. I think that such modifications should be left to those offended groups and or organizations. Released on a scale that meets w/the demand of people who care to partake in such. If that isnt good enough(which it usually isnt..sadly), walk away from IT. IT meaning any large scale entertainment release(as mentioned above). Unfortunately in most cases said release is warred against and as such altered, delayed, canceled or forced to justify itself. |
| Benwa01-07-05, 10:29 AM | Benwa, how would you address the problem of the Sorcerer if you were developing a Christian version of D&D? (Everyone on my thread just simply calls it CD&D, so for short I'll just say that in the future.) I'm working on that very problem right now. I'd be interested in your opinions. Give them either here or on my thread or you can even send me an email or PM if you wish. Also if you don't mind me asking what is a Bible thumping Xian? Xian is I thought a Chinese term. What is a Bible thumping Xian? Also if you or anyone else were developing such a version how would you go about changing the current character classes or modifying them to make them natural to such a version? I have my own ideas but then again my World setting is our real world so I use real world versions of the Christian Cleric, the Christian Paladin, Hermit, Monk, etc. And real world variant classes for everything else as well such as a Buddhist Monk, Jewish Levite, Sufi Mystic, etc. And magic how would you redefine or recategorize or redesign magic for such a project? How though would you or anyone else go about such a project? Jack First of all, I use the X in place of Christ. You know X-mas and all? It's just easier to type. You've got several options if you want to use arcane or natural magic. Many prophets and apostles were granted miracles that were pretty similar to arcane powers. There was also Melchizedek, a high priest who just kind of appeared. He wasn't Hebrew yet he served God, recognized the Hebrews as His chosen, and blessed them. It floored the Isrealites because they really didn't know where he came from or what he did but was a high priest. He might be translateable into a druid. Depending on what you're after though, you might want to be careful. Mel probably didn't follow the law of Abraham but was still serving God. That might open a big can of worms depending on your group. But remember, Jesus was touted as a priest of the order of Melchizedek. he wasn't a Levite but was still a priest. He just didn't fit with the Jews notions of it. Hope this helps. ~B |
| WhiteHarness01-07-05, 11:04 AM | "Teutonic version of Catholicism"??? Do you mean the Heliand? If so, it "exists today" only in book form. I doubt anyone actually practices a variant of Christianity in which Jesus was the son of a thane... :rolleyes: You do realize, don't you, that you owe what little we know about your supposed indigenous norse religion to a handful of Christian chronliclers, right? Snorri Sturluson, and company. Your modern ideas of it are thus filtered through a Christian lens How can you be sure that any "truth" about native germanic religion has actually come down to us at all? Asatru, like wicca, is a modern creation, invented to satisfy non-conformist urges of rebellious adolescents, that has no place in the modern adult world. |
| The WarOverlord01-07-05, 11:27 AM | Exodus 7:8-12.... 8 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, 9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent. 10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. 12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. Pretty clear cut that the sorcerers did, in fact, work sorcery. If you don't believe the Bible, then arguing whether this really happened or not is not the point...but it is a pretty indefensible point to say that the Bible does not acknowledge magic, sorcery, whatever. Uh huh, And in that case GOD had commanded one of his servants to do Magic yes? I mean if GOD supposedly created all things then the forces that are magic was also created by GOD yes? And if someone hyas the ability to cast magic then wouldn't it be a "gift from GOD". yes? The Christian argument is from a religion that the person that they venerate did not found as Jesus was apposed to organized Religion dictating how people should live, saying who can and cannot be saved, and was killed by the Jewish Church in coohoots with the very same Overlords that invented "Christianity" (Ever wonder why the Roman Catholic Church is Roman?) to quench out the legitimate Christ cults and to play friends with the locals by adopting the local beliefs much like they integrated Babylonian and Greek beliefs and simply restructured their Church to replace Zeus with GOD, Hera/Luna with Mary, Horas/Apollo with Jesus, the Patron gods with Patron "Saints", etc (but this is beside the argument) because he told the Religious leaders what they could go do with themselves and their beliefs that they have a right to say what GOD does and doesn't want people to do and for passing judgement on people for their actions and the way they live. But then again even in the Forgotten Realms there are Religious Zealot cults that think there religion is right, have narrow minded views, and all other religions are "heretics" that need to be destroyed....yes? |
| crazysamaritan01-07-05, 11:36 AM | you're on a fine line of insulting and commenting. And if someone hyas the ability to cast magic then wouldn't it be a "gift from GOD". yes? Everything before this was fine, the stuff after isn't that polite. |
| The WarOverlord01-07-05, 12:24 PM | you're on a fine line of insulting and commenting. Everything before this was fine, the stuff after isn't that polite. Sorry, was covering 3 different subjects and points. 1) Magic, if GOD created all things, would created by GOD 2) There is/may be a different between Idealism, History and Practice of a theisim but it affecting game mechnics or causing a need for overhauling them is personal choice of the DM and Players. 3) There doesn't have to be a "Monotheism" setting" as even in real life (compared to a fantasy setting) there is more than one religion though a practitioner of one would say theirs is the best/only one....or at best the DM and Players could just make one that seems to be Monotheism in there perspective....though in practice it wouldn't be if there is enemies with opposing beliefs as technically opponents being of Satanism makes Christianity a "Duality" (That and even real life isn't a Monotheism setting considering all the religions of the real world) |
| NehpetsTtocs01-07-05, 02:28 PM | "Teutonic version of Catholicism"??? Do you mean the Heliand? If so, it "exists today" only in book form. I doubt anyone actually practices a variant of Christianity in which Jesus was the son of a thane... :rolleyes: You do realize, don't you, that you owe what little we know about your supposed indigenous norse religion to a handful of Christian chronliclers, right? Snorri Sturluson, and company. Your modern ideas of it are thus filtered through a Christian lens? How can you be sure that any "truth" about native germanic religion has actually come down to us at all? Asatru, like wicca, is a modern creation, invented to satisfy non-conformist urges of reballious adolescents, that has no place in the modern adult world. Best post ever! :) |
| jack7701-07-05, 04:40 PM | May I then suggest something guys and girls? Instead of debating the nature of God (which might very well be interesting enough, but a bit off point) we return to the idea of whether or not a Christian version of D&D might be developed. I think there should be an equivalent of D&D. Instead of using magic, you could use a different term, such as power. This could allow many people who couldn't normally play D&D play. Name it Castles & Angels or something. Now leaving aside the merits of your individual views of whether there should be such a version or not, does anyone have any specific ideas on how to achieve such a version? For instance what would you modify, or not modify, and how (specifically)? I suspect this was much closer to the point Abaneth was trying to make and if I'm wrong I hope he'll correct me. But assuming such a version existed, or could exist, then how would you structure it or what suggestions would you make, and what kind of market do you think does or does not exist for such a version? I'd be very interested in hearing constructive comments on the particulars since I'm trying to develop such a version right now. I have a thread on the Campaign Forum right now called Terra Ghantik which lists some of the ideas about the structure of my version of such a product. Please feel free to go there, read what I have thus far written, make suggestions, give me ideas and so forth. Or visit one of my other threads or I could read your comments on this thread if Abaneth doesn't mind. Of course if you are opposed to the idea of a Christian version of D&D for purely personal reasons then there is no sense contributing because then your comments will not do me and anyone else who wants to pursue these ideas any good. However if you object to the idea but are willing to keep an open mind or object to certain ideas that you fear might be included (whether in actuality such ideas are included or not) and would like to make constructive suggestions to create a version which would also appeal to non-Christians, then please also feel free to contribute. I personally would like to create a version which is useful and comfortable and enjoyable and even spiritually uplifting to Christians but which would also be interesting, enjoyable and popular with non-Christians. I'm not interested in fighting over assumptions, minutia, or questions we cannot or will not come to a conclusion on anyway, this would be an actual working project and an attempt to solve problems rather than debate the merits of the idea. I would like problem solving ideas and suggestions, not mere assumptions about whether a problem may or may not be solvable. Anyone can debate those questions forever. I want actual solutions and ideas for solutions, if you understand my point. I want to head into the wind not be blown off course by every shift of breeze. If you would like to really help in a constructive manner then I would be more than willing to consider your comments, criticisms and suggestions. And please be as specific as you like. I'm not making any assumptions other than the fact that I believe such a project and version is workable, would have broad appeal for both Christians and non-Christians and that a potentially large market exists for such a product. If you'd like to help me and are willing to keep an open mind then I welcome your comments and would love your help. Jack |
| MystikalLoneWolf01-07-05, 10:43 PM | Races: Human....ummm...thats all I guess since theres no mention of dwarves elves halflings and especially orcs in the bible ( unless you make orcs servants of satan, a.k.a demons ) Classes: Bard = Bard - Historically, bards have been around since recorded, sung, told history just take away thier ability to cast arcane magic, and have thier song effects equivilent to ..lets say, "inspiring gospel"? Barbarian = Ancient Germanic tribes, norse, mongols, aborigines, native indians...just the warriors of "heretic and unsaved" peoples. Cleric = Priests, nuns, the obvious messengers of gods word, thier spells are the divine gift of god to mete out his wrath, justice or th emore acurate wrath and justice and blind egotisim of the mother church. (sorry, personal bias of organized religion there) Fighter = Templars, Clerics are the word, these people are the unyielding iron grip of of a squeazing.....sorry....anyway this is the muscle and actual footsoldiers of Gods word. Monks = Here they could be the actual monks of the church with thier own niche and abilities (akin them to the prestige class LoreMasters from the DMG. just a passing thought.) the record keepers, writers and chroniclers of the church....or....the far eastern monks that you see on saturday midnight kung-fu theatre. Paladins = Where fighters are the footsoldiers, these are the knights and generals of the chruchs "army". Akin to them the same aspects as the holy crusaders of king richard. Wizards/Sorcerers = evil alignment only, the pawns of satan, those who consort with dark powers to steal peoples souls. The witches and demons the spanish inquisition sought so desperately ( and ironically that could be anyone not in the high echelons of the church ) to stamp out. Is that a good start or basis of what you're looking for? These are just passing thoughts and suggestions, and maybe my own little 2cp on the topic in general. (ok 4cp for the earlier post, I can spare the change ). As far as setting? Dont play a fantasy world. What would be the point? Youd have to take out almost all of the "magical" creatures out of the game, and fighting wild natural animals would get boring after a while (unless your group is nothing but rangers and druids ).....anyway, thats my little contribution and good deed for the new year. :D :D :D |
| Gomezy3k01-07-05, 11:12 PM | I have to agree. I find nothing in the D&D game incompatible with Christianity. Therefore, I see no need for an alternative. There is simply a need for educating people who believe the game itself is inherently evil. Rooster Getting back to Role Playing... D&D is supposedly a game about good versus evil... at least in most games... Some of us prefer to push the edges though... I can't see why one cannot use the game system the way it was written up. Its called make believe... pretend... WizO_Catoblepas: Message edited. One way to ensure that the thread doesn't get too religious is to keep the discussion to the topic of the thread, which is how to make a christian-based D&D game. |
| jack7701-08-05, 12:17 AM | I'm not ruling out anything MLW, only seeking suggestions. Some of yours weren't bad but remember, I'm not ruling anything out, trying to figure out the best way of presentation for both a Christian and non-Christian audience. Gome, once gain I'm only interested in how to do this and the best way to go about it and the mechanics, not devolving into a god-God war. Try to get past your assumptions and prejudices and instead work on the nature of the problem. If of course you are a Christian and think this or that will be a problem, please comment on it. If you're not a Christian then instead of assuming what Christians will or will not find offensive or enjoyable try to think of it from the other end, as to what would need to be included to also make it interesting to you. There are already numerous versions of D&D world settings in existence, some you must consider good, others not so good. So what is it that the good ones have that the bad or boring one's lack? As for the Christians what would you like to see incorporated into the game morally or in any other way, and what would make such a version interesting to you? For instance I have connected my version in some sense to our real world. Would this seem a necessity to you or can you imagine Christianity flourishing on a totally different world or in a different setting? If so what might that world be like and how would Christianity be different. That's one that with a little imagination the non-Christians should be ale to answer as well. Instead of assuming that a Christian version must be free of magic, instead consider the proclivities of how magic might be different or modified in such a setting and what uses it might be put to in such a setting? I have my own ideas but I'd like to see how others might think about these ideas. If you guys are able to assume a position without immediate assumptions and prejudices I suspect that you could fashion some very good ideas about such a version but we need to remain focused on the problem rather than just merely assuming things about the problem which may or may not be true. Of course if the whole enterprise seems silly to you that's fine because lots of other projects are available to work on, but if it seems interesting to you then try your hand with your most creative ideas instead of your most prejudicial assumptions. By the way if you want to see my ideas on how to handle these problems go here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=360444 But remember I make no claims to have developed the best such version, just one possible version. All I'm saying is I'm trying to approach these problems as challenges rather than as impossible obstacles. You're welcome to comment on it there if you wish. Jack. |
| Ruskie01-08-05, 02:38 AM | Wizards/Sorcerers = evil alignment only, the pawns of satan, those who consort with dark powers to steal peoples souls. The witches and demons the spanish inquisition sought so desperately ( and ironically that could be anyone not in the high echelons of the church ) to stamp out. MLW- Something popped in my head when I read this- and maybe this could be tied into clerics too- but as a Catholic I know we often pray to the Saints, Mother Mary and the Holy Spirit. Now, I don't know if it would be considered blasphemy or not, but what about Clerics, or they could be Monks, or Brothers or something, rolling on Devine Favours? I know it's pretty much just semantics, but it'd be way for the "good guys" to get away with a having some "Devine Energy"- not magic- on their side. There are Saints to pray to given just about any situation, so maybe that could be one of the challenges- choosing the proper Saint to target a prayer to and letting the, um... DM?? decide if it's appropriate. Just a thought, hope it's not offensive... |
| The WarOverlord01-08-05, 07:07 AM | Races: Human....ummm...thats all I guess since theres no mention of dwarves elves halflings and especially orcs in the bible ( unless you make orcs servants of satan, a.k.a demons ) [ Which version would that be? There were 6 destructions of the world and 6 creations writen with the Psalms speaking of Civilizations before Adams (Humans) living of earth but God destroying the civilization and then creating Eden (Should be "And the World was laid Waste, not "and the world was without form" in that first paragraph of Genises. The Rapheal, Elihohim, Cherub, and other creatures called "Angels" (from the Sky) are in fact other Races. In fact before Eve GOD tried to present the "angel" Lillith to Adam but she said she would rather give birth to a thousand children a day instead than be with a Adam, so she was sent into Cannan and did infact give birth to a thousand Rapheal a day. And it was a Rapheal (also known as "a Serpent") that snuck into the Garden of EDen and tempted Eve and the curse came upon it and it's imediate decendent to loose it's legs and arms and become a modern snake, though a lot of the Rapheal still where entrped in the center of the world. By the way "Sepents"/Rapheals in Ireland were about 4 feet tall with enlarged heads and Big black eyes and Greyish Skin and like to Wear Green and were Driven out of Ireland BY Saint Patrick's crusades. (Also known as "Leprechauns" or "Greys") Likewise the Fossils classified as "Neaderthals" are your Orcs, and the Dinosaurs your Dragons, The Raptors are the "Lizard Men" and so on and so forth. Non-Human "Beast with hands" that weren't driven into the darkest and frthest corners of the Earth or into Space by "The Church" including what could be called Elves, Dwarfs/Trolls,Kolbolds, Dragons were hunted to extintion in the Church's quest for racial purity And the word "Demon" was used to describe anything not Human much like how we use "Monster" nowadays. And What exactlly did David Slay in his battle? (a "giant") And the Unicorns were to busy playing instead of getting on the Ark was why they went extinct instead of being transplanted into the new earth during the 6th destruction and creation. And Even Mars and Venus had civilizations on them that were laid waist though Rajatt, the Morning Star also called "Lucifer" in a poem was a planet between Mars and Jupiter that could be seen from earth every morning cause its orbit was almost parell to earth's until it and the Civilization on it was totally destroyed by the "Wrath of GOD" and it's pieces cames the means of destroying the existing civilizations on Venus, Mars and Earth at the time. (I think the planets are called "Stones of Fire" in Ezikeil and in the Pslams) Likewise "Chariots of Fire" are what we now call "U.F.O" and are "Angels" and many renisance paintings show the UFOs doing things like flying in the distance over Mary holding Jesus....a "shadow passed over Mary" then she became pregnant with Jesus and this sort of sounds like abduction stories and the fertility experiments the E.T. do in the modern abduction stories. And then there is the story of the Apostiles that were awoken and Frighten by a great noise and Bright light and when they looked into the light they saw Jesus talking to Moses and Ezekiel (Close encounter of the 3rd kind music plays). If you remember both Moses and Ezekiel at the end of their work were taken up in a "Chariot of Fire". Of course Moses lived 300 years which should have been a clue that he, like Jesus wasn't fully Human. (1/2 Eliohim) The Eiohim try to help human kind along, though the Rapheal hates humans and even more so for the curses that happened upon them sucj as some of them turning into snakes, though it isn't unusual for them to have bat like wings, hooves, skin ranging from smooth and grey to reptilian in nature and all all kinds of colors,a tail and ranging from very small to very big depending on the variaty of Rapheal (Basically "Demons" and "Devils") Hopefully all this misc tidbits can be used in the creation of a Christian Campaign. |
| Gomezy3k01-08-05, 11:01 AM | Gome, once gain I'm only interested in how to do this and the best way to go about it and the mechanics, not devolving into a god-God war. Try to get past your assumptions and prejudices and instead work on the nature of the problem. If of course you are a Christian and think this or that will be a problem, please comment on it. If you're not a Christian then instead of assuming what Christians will or will not find offensive or enjoyable try to think of it from the other end, as to what would need to be included to also make it interesting to you. There are already numerous versions of D&D world settings in existence, some you must consider good, others not so good. So what is it that the good ones have that the bad or boring one's lack? Jack. Sorry, this is just a touchy subject with me. In the 20 years of playing, 99 percent of those I played with had no problems with the game as it was. They were Christians, most were very active in their churches. They just realized that there was religion and then there was fantasy and were able to separate the two. Some even found it fascinating that many of the Deities in the game were based on actual historical gods who were once worshipped. A couple guys I knew studied the old religions from a theological point of reference. There were a few who came out of curiosity, and then proceeded to give us a sermon on how we were going to hell and should repent. You wouldn't believe how many others who when they found out I played D&D, gave me the essential same lecture. I suppose you could create and run a game based on actual events in history…the Crusades…the Inquisition, etc. How do you plan on dealing with the Non-humans? According to the above mentioned individuals, I was told that even playing Elves and Gnomes and Dwarves was sacrilegious since they were creations of the devil….Dragons were actually the devil himself… So essentially, you would have a straight human versus human game with no fantasy creatures… And how would you deal with the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" commandment... You would not be able to kill anyone. You would also have to eliminate a majority of the spells in the game since I don’t recall any magic being used in the bible other than maybe minor things such as fortune telling and Seers. There were no magic missiles, no fireballs, etc… And as for the clerical spells… most of them are not based on anything other than fantasy so they are out. In fact there were very few references of healing so it would be extremely rare and as for Resurrection (only happened once so its out) and absolutely no Reincarnation… Nope can’t have them. Seems kind of boring… |
| jack7701-08-05, 11:49 AM | Sorry, this is just a touchy subject with me. In the 20 years of playing, 99 percent of those I played with had no problems with the game as it was. I have no problems with the game as it is either Gome, I'm just very interesting in creating a game version which others would find more comfortable playing and to tell the truth I'm also very interested in creating a Christian world setting which both Christians and non-Christians would find appealing. That would serve several functions, some purely Christian in nature, some not. Also to tell the truth I believe that I, perhaps we, and others could create better world setting than those that currently exist. More interesting, more fun, maybe even more spiritual and satisfying overall, if we work at the actual problems involved in such a creation. As for me I think that many of the entertainment values possible from the game have been well exploited, perhaps so well exploited that other potentials have been completely overlooked or ignored. Such other potential values, such as spiritual and psychological and even skill development values have not been developed or very poorly or incompletely exploited. I think we could and should exploit such potentials in a far better and more interesting way. As for being touchy, well, perhaps people honestly have personal reasons for being touchy. I have no idea what has happened with you or anyone else in the past, I'm merely saying don't let past bad experiences prevent progress and current potential. As for everyone else, now you're beginning to think. Beginning to explore the possible depths which could exist in a spiritual, even religious, far deeper version of the game. As I've said I want to augment the current game, help establish the idea that things like a Christian version are possible, and that different people can create their own versions which explore these subjects without feeling somehow that God and the game are at war, or that religious, spiritual and other such ideas cannot find a natural and beneficial place in the game. I really hate to take over this thread though, it is Abaneth's thread and he may want to approach these ideas in a different way. Happy to respond here but am trying to keep it short. So go here if you want to see how I'm handling these problems. Comment there if you want. I have other threads too but they may bore you. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=360444 But also remember if you get 30 different Christians in a room, although they many absolutely agree on certain big issues about God, Jesus or just mundane issues, you will also get at least 30 different interpretations of the same issues, subjects, or general ideas about the world, man and God. As evince of this I give you the enormous number of different denominations. Which doesn't bother me at all, I see it as a big advantage overall. Also remember this though, every big idea takes a while to catch on. (Of course you hope your idea is more than just big, you hope it is actually useful and good.) That's the price of living. You're always gonna catch hell from somebody, even if your motives and actions are completely pure and good. Next time somebody tells you you're going to Hell, for whatever reason as long as you're not really engaged in actual evil, just clap em on the shoulder, laugh, and say, "Patience friend. I may fool ya yet." Hell is always easy to sell, Heaven takes awhile. Jack |
| Godzilla01-08-05, 01:01 PM | What? Are Christians not allowed to play D&D because of the story of some kid killing himself over it? That's so stupid! I'm a Christian, and I have no problem with D&D. Yeesh, just because 5% of all parents think it's Satan's game, people say Christians can't play it. |
| Fi'Irdray01-08-05, 02:38 PM | Gomez, Resurrections happened more than once (Jesus, Lazerous, the soldier's daughter, might be one more but not sure). |
| Crusader X01-08-05, 09:08 PM | Whatever the LotR Christian infleunce, it is well known that Tolkein drew many elements of his tale directly from Teutonic myth and legend. Something which, as a Professor of English Lit., he would have been well aware of. Not saying that is the only influence, but I can watch LotR over and over and not once have anything "Christian", or even nonEnglish, intrude upon my appreciation of it. "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work" - JRR Tolkien. The Catholicism in LOTR is definitely there, because, well, the author himself said so. It's a bit less evident in the films, due to Peter Jackson's misunderstandings of the source material. But even in the films, the Catholic worldview is there. |
| Blaine_Furntog01-08-05, 09:29 PM | "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work" - JRR Tolkien. The Catholicism in LOTR is definitely there, because, well, the author himself said so. It's a bit less evident in the films, due to Peter Jackson's misunderstandings of the source material. But even in the films, the Catholic worldview is there. I don't think he mis-understood the source. I think he just had a different interpretation of the result. He also changed the media that as used. |
| The_Demonic_Drow01-09-05, 12:23 AM | Most Cristians think it is satanistic to play DnD i "could" see where they would get such an idea but their judgements are really nieve, and being brought up in a cristian family i think i can say alot just look at my name The_Demonic_Drow to me its just a cool nickname for my pc i don't consider myself a devil worshiper and niether do the other cristian people i game with. DnD is just misunderstood due to the fact that some dumb people have done some incredibly dumb **** to mess it up for all of us "cristian players" i really don't even consider dnd religiously based |
| Fi'Irdray01-09-05, 12:27 AM | for someone raised in a Christian home, you don't seem to be very good at spelling it. |
| The_Demonic_Drow01-09-05, 12:38 AM | for someone raised in a Christian home, you don't seem to be very good at spelling it. I have my belief in Christianity(spelled it right i hope) but im really not the kind that goes and reads the bible or goes to church and im not perfect i mean i type fast i don't go over every word i typed to spell check, besides in the bible they misspelled jesus once (jebus, as they so spelled it) |
| MystikalLoneWolf01-09-05, 03:13 AM | War Overlord Hmmm, ok, good point.... but my basis was what would the PC races be in a Christian based D&D world. Sure, alot of those you mentioned could be "enemies" or other such beings ( NPC's probably ). But then again, I think playing as one of the seraphim, or other chorus of angels would be a interesting campaign. Know I know theres a game out there ( In nomine? or something like that) like that, but I think the question is about how to incorperate D&D rules to fit a game of that concept. Would certainly make things instresting.... How about angels being Half-celestial humans or something? Funny how half-celestials seem to have better abilities than full ones (at least in 3.0 IMO). Anyway Im ranting...just tossing ideas out there. Anywhoo...Id be willing to PLAY a campaign based on this, if it was presented in a good fashion. I will draw the line at having a communal prayer before each session though. j/k :D Let me give it some more thought and lemme see if I can toss out something for you. |
| Roxlimn01-09-05, 04:19 AM | I am a bible-reading, Sunday church going, novena attending, Angelus praying, saint revering Roman Catholic Christian. Speaking for most of the Christians I'm familiar with, few of them view D&D in anything like a negative light. If anything, they view it on about the same level as most contemporary distractions, and definitely above such fare as GTA and its ilk. I even used to DM for a few applicants and residents of an Opus Dei chapterhouse and they were quite accepting of it. To many serious Christians, the problems of God in a game, potential blaphemy and heresy, is very real; and they can appreciate D&D sidestepping the issue by using imaginary deities in the pagan sense. No one ever takes these guys seriously because they're pagan gods. They're so obviously false that the game is immediately taken as imaginary and fictional and we all operate from that basis. Having said that, I usually include provisos for monotheistic type religions in games where I have Christians and leave that religion firmly vague. If they want to act as God's champions in the game, they can, but it's their judgement on what's God's will, not mine. We always refer to a higher authority in matters of theological significance. |
| priest of blipdoolpoolp01-09-05, 04:45 AM | Always remember, you can override anything you disagree with, to create a game that's palatable to anyone.... with a little tweaking... |
| The WarOverlord01-09-05, 07:45 AM | War Overlord Hmmm, ok, good point.... but my basis was what would the PC races be in a Christian based D&D world.. Well, that's easy...Only Human with all races having being killed off or driven off to utter reclusiveness to avoid being lynched by the Church's Crusades and Cleansing wars and the Zealot type fanatical brainwashed mobs. And with the Church saying everything is "evil" and everything not approved of as "of GOD" or "of Church Cannon" to be "of the Devil" the Time would be at least the "Dark Ages" with no Technology and no Magic whatsoever or very hidden magic use with maybe a refugee elf or Orc here and there that would be lynched mobbed or slain by a Temple type (Knight/Paladin) on sight as would be any user of Magic. Of course most of the Battles would be either between Humans communities/countries/cities/states that are non-Christian or of a Fractured Christian Sect (which would technically be considered the same as a non-Christian/Heretic) Legends have a bit of truth in them after all, and as I stated in in a earlier post the reason why every culture talks of fairies, elves,Orcs, and so forth is because they used to really exist and interact with humans until people like Saint Patrick drove them off or destroyed them. I don't have the exact versus but the Bible does speak of Dragons (Dinosaurs), Elohim("Angel"), Rapheal (Demon), Cherub (Sphinx's,Griffins), and so forth and the term "Angel" means "from the sky" or "E.T."s , not "Celestials" and in fact these UFO sightings today are still the "Leprechauns" and "Angels" with that whole "Pillar of Fire and Pillar of CLoud" in the Exodus being a "UFO" guiding Moses and them venting their jets or whatever to part the Red Sea. |
| The WarOverlord01-09-05, 08:09 AM | [I] Next time somebody tells you you're going to Hell, for whatever reason as long as you're not really engaged in actual evil, just clap em on the shoulder, laugh, and say, "Patience friend. I may fool ya yet." Hell is always easy to sell, Heaven takes awhile. Jack I would inform them "Hell means grave or death so everyone including you will go to hell someday" or " Do you mean the Finish goddess of Death Hel, or going to one of the 666 planes of Hell, one of the 9 planes of Hell, or do you mean that place that the Cathlolic Church invented to scare their follwers with cause it was cheaper then building a actual tourture chamber and Dungeon under the Church to tourture and punnish the less than fully faithful and unquestioning?" The Whole "Paradise" and "Afterlife" think is interesting since the whole "you die and all fades to black so enjoy life whle you can" thing seems to be the general message of non Christain Texts concerning GOD and how things work. If fact in one story Lucifer thought it unfair that Humans were so frail and mortal and ask GOD why he had made humans that way and it was because of that that be was reprimanded and the whole garden thing was about giving Humans souls via the temptation so they could be freewill beings with the chance of immortality. :rolleyes: |
| SeraphimJMF01-09-05, 02:48 PM | My favorite campaign was a very medieval one, with knights, castles, sprawling medieval cities, great empires, cathedrals, monastaries, heretical cults, barbarians of the north, and etc. The world they give in the core rules is just an example of what you can do, you are really encouraged as a GM to make your own campaign setting. There is no need for any alternative. |
| Crusader X01-09-05, 03:08 PM | Most Cristians think it is satanistic to play DnD No, most really don't. A small minority might, but most? Definitely not. |
| Fi'Irdray01-09-05, 04:21 PM | "or do you mean that place that the Cathlolic Church invented to scare their follwers with cause it was cheaper then building a actual tourture chamber and Dungeon under the Church to tourture and punnish the less than fully faithful and unquestioning?" Catholics invented Purgatory and Limbo, not Hell (which Jesus talked about... y'know, lake of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?) |
| crazysamaritan01-09-05, 06:29 PM | No, most really don't. A small minority might, but most? Definitely not. I prefer the term, "LOUD minority". As it's often more descriptive. However, I doubt that's the case in this senerio, but then again, I've been limited to meeting older (as in 30s+) people's comments. |
| MystikalLoneWolf01-09-05, 07:00 PM | Campaign Setting: Early Middle Ages. Set around the fall of the Roman empire. Still an age of exploration and conquering. The Holy Chruch is really beginning its crusade to spread the word of the "One God" to all the peoples of the world. Mystic beings and magical forces are waning thanks to the dedicated genocide of the church to "cleanse" these "unholy" powers from our world. *NOTE: Now I use the terms Roman empire, etc. just to loosely give an idea of what setting to use, feel free to adjust names, etc. to personal taste.* Races: Human - The only true race held above all others by God. From the barbaric tribes of the northmen (viking, germanic, etc.) to the devoutest priest of the Mother Chruch, all humans a ultimately tied to the workings of the powers of Heaven and hell, and are most certainly the pawns of which the forces of good and evil will use towards the final battle. Elves - One of Gods previous attempts at creation. A leftover race that was inherently tied to the mystical forces that God has slowly withdrawn from the world. Now, they are scattered and few, hiding from the Knights and priests of the Chruch, and from other mortals, lest thier discovery doom them to the Inquisition and certain death that waits for them. Dwarves - Another one of Gods many experiments, this sturdy race was made to revere and work the earth, being naturally inclined to shape earth and stone and ever the industrial and creative beings. They,too, suffer greatly and hide deep within the furthest reaches of the mountains and other "uninhabitable" places of the earth to escape the church. Halflings/Gnomes - The last to fall prey to the machinations of the chruch and its servitors. Thier uncanny ability to hide and blend into the woods and wilds have spared them from much of the fate that besieged the elven and dwarven races, but not by much. Now they exist in secret hiding, giving rise to tales of "fairies" and "leprechans" told among many of the more distant and wild tribes of humans. Classes: Fighter - Soldier, Centurian, Gladiator. Whatever names you give them, there is always a occupation for those who take up the sword, the axe, or the bow to fight thier peoples enemies, defend thier farms, or other more sinister reasons. Bard - There is a magical connection between humans and music, between reality and the imaginations of storytellers and songsters. These are the troubadores of the land, wandering minstrels whose wanderings leave them with many a tale to tell and a song always ready on thier lips. Some whisper that they even retain a bit of the "Old magic" that has vanished from the world, but if this is true, the bards dont speak of it, and the chruch cant prove it.....though they do keep a constant eye and ear out for rumors. Paladin - The holy knights of the chruch. Souls who have given over all they are to the word of the chruch. These are the crusaders of God, the cleansers of tainted and evil beings, those who bring the word of god through the cleansing swath of the sword to those who fail to bow a obedient knee and accept the "truth". Clerics - From the lowly friar hidden in some vast dark library, to the revered high priests and bishops of the central cathedrals of God. Clerics make up the majority of the churches population. From tending the sick, to spreading the gospel, to studying and interogating the fallen races, clerics are the mainstay of the order. Some even beleave that clerics,too, can harness some of Gods "divine grace" to perform small miracles and magik. From healing a fatally wounded man, to even bringing light to even the deepest, darkest catacomb. Monks - *dont know where they could fit in, probably limited to far eastern locals and places, mongolia and beyond.* Wizards/Sorcerers - The bringers of darkness, the consorters of satan. Followers of a dark and evil past. Rumors abound by the millions of what one looks like, acts like, or can do. From turning a man into a toad, to calling forth the very demons they serve, there is nothing good about them, and will be killed on sight if ever discovered. Druids - The once proud and knowledgable group known as druids have all but been either extinguished or abosrbed by the Church. Mainly the guides and advisors to the northern tribes, there is no doubt they control and harness formidible powers. Evil they may not be, but thie rpowers and religion cannot outdo the Chruch. They will either submit, or fall. *this is what I have so far, its a work in progress....anyone with HELPFUL suggestions or ideas to add are welcomed to do so.* |
| BagleyJ198101-09-05, 07:09 PM | Now I come from a highly religious family, one that almost FORCES Christianity on people that they come into contact with. After having a rather lengthy conversation regarding D&D and Christianity, these are the conclusions that they (not I) came up with : 1. Since conjuring (magic) is such a big part of D&D, and the Bible specifically states that magic and conjuring is evil, D&D is evil. 2. It promotes violence as a solution to problems. (I quickly replied with that point being purely dependent on the campaign, and who is DM'ing at the time.) 3. Calling on demons or extraplanar creatures is tantamount to devil-worship, since it requires the character calling on the extraplanar creature to do his or her bidding. (After all, who HASN'T asked for their deity to intervene in real life?) I play D&D, and I am a Christian. I try very hard to promote "good" deeds to my characters and reward them (when I DM) for the things that they do. People often foget that this is a game, and that unless you allow the way your character acts to influence your real-world behavior, it should be relatively simple to balance religious beliefs and a role-playing game. |
| jack7701-09-05, 08:34 PM | I'm not sure exactly what Abaneth meant when he started this thread, but as for me personally, when I say a Christian variant version of D&D, I mean more a World Setting/Milieu based upon the D&D framework rather than a whole new game. If someone wanted to create a whole new version of the game that would be their right and I'd think it an interesting project but that's not really my intention, not at the moment anyway. What I would like is more a world setting that players could go and buy and then base their Role Playing Adventures in that world. I'm developing my own world for just such a purpose based on a world setting my players have played in for years and actually they were the ones who encouraged me to try to develop it for publication, but I know it will have to be greatly expanded and reformatted for publication. Anyway it just occurred to me from reading many of your posts that some of you might think I was speaking of a whole new game, whereas really my intention is more a world setting. Also my intention in creating such a world setting, the discussions I had with my friends, and the reasons my players, even church members encouraged me with this world setting had nothing to do with religious disputes or friction, quite the contrary. It had rather to do with better exploiting the potential spiritual, moral and religious possibilities of the game. So I'm continuing my project on my thread. Whereas I see no need for the game and the Church to be at odds, I also see great possibilities that are not being exploited and which I think could be very enjoyably explored by both Christians and non-Christians alike. Any comments? Jack |
| The WarOverlord01-10-05, 01:40 AM | "or do you mean that place that the Cathlolic Church invented to scare their follwers with cause it was cheaper then building a actual tourture chamber and Dungeon under the Church to tourture and punnish the less than fully faithful and unquestioning?" Catholics invented Purgatory and Limbo, not Hell (which Jesus talked about... y'know, lake of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?) Did he really? I thought a Catholic Monk pretending to be Peter telling the story 2nd hand 360 years later wrote that? From what I gather of what he was telling his followers, all of Existence is the "Kingdom of GOD" and it is more important how you choose to live and what you do with your life then what people think of you....being remembered is a boon not a goal. It should be noted that the whole "Rebel Angel" story is still "Future tense" as in it hasn't happen yet and the more accurate translation is that the Rebel Angels are "Thrown down to earth" not "Thrown into Hell". I also never understood the "torture" and "Fire" part of the belief as what is Pain to the dead and what is fire to the dead if they lack the nerves and flesh, and bone and cerebral functions to feel pain and to feel being burned. Again, Jesus was against organized Religion and it was the reason why he was executed by the very authority that claims venerate him and is all that is left of the Once great Roman Empire Government, and the Christianity Religion was the Roman Overlords trying to quench the Christ Cults and to play friends with and control the Locals by adopting the beliefs and Culture so Limbo= River of Styx, Hell=Tautarus/Hades, Heaven= The Allusion Fields, etc. But anyway I still think a Mid-evil Campaign where non-humans and magic users are persecuted and people live in fear of retribution for even thinking of going against the teachings of the Church both Physically cause of being tortured and Spiritually cause of the possibility of a torturous after life or being sympethatic to Magic users or non-human Species.....Kinda like Dark Sun, but even more periess as the whole Freewill and Free choice argument is thrown out the window if a Loving GOD of any sort is so unforgiving as to punnish those he/it gave freewill and free choice too (Whispered questioning that is a death sentence in that world, so gets a "Your going to hell for saying that" response at the very least....which because the "Judge not and be not judged" statement and "Only GOD has the right to judge" belief...but I digress.) |
| WhiteHarness01-10-05, 08:42 PM | Yep, WarOverlord... You and you alone know *exactly* what Jesus was thinking 2000 years ago, don't you? God's will is a complete and total open book to you, and utterly escaped all the monks, theologians, and others who've gone before you. :rolleyes: Viva your happy little intellectual revolution! Bring on the Holy Cursade against that nasty ol' Organized Religion! WarOverlord lo Volt! |
| WizO_BigSister01-10-05, 09:06 PM | Despite WizO_Cat's message "WizO_Catoblepas: One way to ensure that the thread doesn't get too religious is to keep the discussion to the topic of the thread, which is how to make a christian-based D&D game" this thread has continued to discuss Christianity in general, and this discussion has got increasingly heated ... showing us all why the team prefers not to have discussion of religion on these forums. Click |