Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Abaneth 04-20-04, 11:59 PM	I wanted to know if there are any Christian D&Ders out there on the boards. If there are, I want to know how you feel about the polytheism, and magic. I support D&D as a christian safe game but I know some who think it "occult".
Ramius_Mordale 04-21-04, 12:27 AM	Well your looking at a Christian here that plays. Don't let the monk clothes fool you! :P Nah, but seriously yes I'm a Christian D&Der though I'm sure there are a good amount of Christians and other people of different beliefs that do as well. But as for having polytheism and magic, as long as you know its just imaginary and a game I don't really think you have to worry about God smiting you in the afterlife for playing a game. Just don't go worshiping any of the fictional gods and you'll be fine. ;) Eh, I hope that helps you out there, and adios.
Abaneth 04-21-04, 12:33 AM	thanks, I already believe that it is harmless but want to see what others opinions are.
Falstaff the Fighter 04-21-04, 12:34 AM	I am a Christian and I also support D&D. Although there are some occult elements to it (No more so than many movies and comic books.), I do not seem them as harmful because I put no stock in them whatsoever. When I cast a spell or "pray to Odin", I do not, for a minute, think it is real. It is no more than acting a part in a movie or play. There are some elements I find ojectionable, but I simply do not play with them nor in campaigns that do, no harm, no foul. I don't use fiends all that often and when I do I stick to the notion of 2e that they are simply beings from another reality where they are the native folk. D&D is not evil, nor is it dangerous, its just a game made of cardboard and paper. Anything more is what you bring to it with your own DMing and playing. I also play Magic the Gathering. There are a few Christian RPG sites on the web if you want other perspectives.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-21-04, 01:36 AM	I'm Christian and I play DnD. I find no conflict there at all, and I'm prone to look oddly at anyone who thinks otherwise (though they're perfectly free to do so and look at me oddly I figure). Heck my current campaign for the past year and a half (3e Planescape) is largely focused on the lower planes, the main antagonists are fiends (Yugoloths), and the PC's are skewed in the neutral side of things as opposed to being purely good. It makes for more complex characters, goal oriented characters as opposed to doing something purely out of a moral stance, etc. As for magic? I'm a scientist (molecular biologist) so lets just say I'm skeptical in the extreme and unless you prove to me it exists, I say it doesn't. (And if you can prove it, there's a $1 million prize waiting for you from The Amazing Randi).
Leatherwood 04-21-04, 01:40 AM	My best friend and his soon-to-be wife are both devout Christians and great role-players. I've not only played D&D with these two, but I've also played Vampire and Cthulhu with them without any issues coming up dealing with religion. I myself, am not Christian. More importantly, I am an occultist (or at least that is what I label myself). From the other side of the fence, I can tell you that D&D is as "corrupting" as any movie, tv show, good book, music or painting. People like the unexplained, the mysterious, and the foreign in their entertainment, even if they are squeemish in real life when confronted by these. The information imparted through entertainment concerning the practice of occultism is far from accurate, and often times paints a rather prejudice picture. Another thing to concider when weighing the morality of a game, movie, or music that contains occult elements is the source of occultism itself. Occultism is nothing more then the fusion of rejected ideas of the early Christian church with mistranslated and misunderstood scraps of earlier religions mixed with a healthy dose of imagination.
Wizard 04-21-04, 01:40 AM	Gotta love the Amazing Randi... Yeah, me too. Christian and a major D&D player. And no sympathy for the publisher of tracts who will not be named. Ah ha! J.C. (NOT Jesus Christ) will forever after be known as He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, or You-Know-Who. All those in favor, please manifest by your posts!
Spongly 04-21-04, 03:19 AM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder As for magic? I'm a scientist (molecular biologist) so lets just say I'm skeptical in the extreme and unless you prove to me it exists, I say it doesn't. (And if you can prove it, there's a $1 million prize waiting for you from The Amazing Randi). Of course, nothing can really "prove" that magic exists, because there's no real definition of "magic". Science, to the medieval mind, was magic, because most people didn't understand it and it relied on occult knowledge gained from mysterious tomes. And of course, any science which is suitably advanced is indistinguishable from magic, even today, except that most people would naturally assume that it IS science of a kind that they cannot understand. But if you're a christian, perhaps it would be easiest to explain my view of magic like this - it's much the same as praying. If I attempt "magic", I'm simply attempting to influence the gods into working to my benefit on this world, and hoping that they do...I'd imagine I do it in rather a different way, but ultimately it's the same thing, an attempt to influence the supernatural powers of the world.
Lord Nat 04-21-04, 03:32 AM	I am an Ex-Christian is that counts in this. But really DnD is just a game. with magic... and monsters. and demons... Wow this game is evil... J/K Really it's just a game it's dumb when people call it evil. I mean look at the dumb people that still say pokemon is a hell spawn sent to warp our kids.
TheRedRobedWizard 04-21-04, 08:06 AM	As a devout deist and biblical scholar, I can tell you that anyone who would try to force the idea that D&D is evil upon you is NOT a Christian. That whole "judge not lest ye be judged" thing coming back in their face. D&D is only dangerous to people who were already tottering on the edge of sanity before they began to play. Like Curt Cobain. I don't know if he played D&D, but he was definetly a crackpot on too many drugs to differentiate reality from fantasy. It's people like that who shouldn't play an escapist game like this without some kind of supervision. Going back to the whole "evil" thing... What's more evil?: A) a game that promotes teamwork and problemsolving to save the world from the evils that threaten it. or B) a group that persecutes people based on their religious and/or moral beliefs to the point of near genocide. -TRRW
diaglo 04-21-04, 08:18 AM	Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour.:D edit: i've been playing this game since the 70's.
Ramses III 04-21-04, 08:26 AM	I'm a former Christian. I played D&D when I was a Christian and didn't have any problem with it. The controversy there is all hype. If you have faith, it doesn't matter what you do to entertain yourself... watching films like "The Gate" or playing games like D&D aren't going to make you sell your soul. You might as well say that songs like Charlie Daniels Band's "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" are Satanist and you will be damned for listening to them, as to say that playing D&D is heresy. I had a friend in high school that i played D&D with who was also a devout Christian... we would discuss our faith, and never felt compromised by the fact we played A GAME. PERIOD.
airhead 04-21-04, 08:43 AM	Originally posted by diaglo Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour.:D I've been playing this game since the 70's. Diaglo, I knew there was a reason I liked you. I too have been playings since the 70's - and am saved - and am very much a part of a conservative Baptist church. I don't let my imaginary characters pray to my real God. They have to "pray" to a pretend god since they are pretend people. In fact, since they are pretend, they cannot pray, I can only say that they do. (role-PLAYing)(I'll quit now.)
The Philosopher King 04-21-04, 09:16 AM	I really have to admit the fact that the multiplicity of threads like these (and websites on similar topics) really freak me out. I've never been personally exposed to any of this 'D&D is evil' stuff. Admittedly I live down here in Australia - an Aboriginal leader cursed our PM today, which is hilarious for so many reasons. CURSED! And not a high level cleric in sight. So maybe we're a bit more relaxed on the whole occultism front, I dunno. We do lack the more... interesting religious elements... that the yanks seem to have, which is, ironically enough, a godsend :angel: Also, I'm a Catholic, so I dunno, maybe all the magical stuff doesn't seem that strange. Playing a paladin just felt so... right :D Oh, and this (http://www.theescapist.com/random011102.htm) is pertinent.
Disturbed1 04-21-04, 09:34 AM	ima Christian and i play dnd. what really irks me on this type of subject are the guys who make huge posts on the net saying how dnd is evil and that your goin to hell because you play it(and who compare it to games like chicken and russin roulette:rolleyes: ) .I feel that if your not strong enough in your faith to realize that this is a game, and you shouldnt go and actually kill ppl...and you cant actually cast spells....then your prolly not sittin in the best spot to begin with, and you prolly shouldnt play it. I know its not true, and I know what i believe this is just a personal quirk i guess, but i i ever saw one o those guys who make those articles in a mall or anything, i think id have to go up to him and say....well then i guess im going to hell. Cya there!:angel: dis1
Another Gnome 04-21-04, 10:10 AM	I'm a Christian just like all the other local gamers I know. Though since most Christians in Finland are in turn Lutherans, being a Christian is about as noticeable a trait as wearing socks...
Aristulous 04-21-04, 12:01 PM	Originally posted by Abaneth I wanted to know if there are any Christian D&Ders out there on the boards. If there are, I want to know how you feel about the polytheism, and magic. I support D&D as a christian safe game but I know some who think it "occult". Uhhh this person you know... do they also think they are actually purchasing property when they are playing Monopoly? Ahh the simple minded masses can be amusing at times... I would also advise your friend to stay away from playing the game CLUE... they could end up dead...
CuCulain42 04-21-04, 12:18 PM	I am a Christian and a PK (thats Preacher's Kid) and have no issues between my faith and the game. I will say that I do not play in "evil" campaigns but that is more of a personal preference than a faith thing. By the way the link tha Philosopher King put in his post I found hilaious, a serious topic but hilarious. And as far as Harry Potter books, speaking as a parent now, any book that gets a kid to read but that's a different topc...:)
Deamoclese 04-21-04, 12:19 PM	True story... 12 years ago in high school another classmate learned I played DnD... this fella got all enraged and for weeks accused me of being a vile person for practicing sorcery, demon worship and other nonsense. (turns out he was a devout christian/catholic/whatever... I'm atheist by definition so it's all a load of rubbish to me) One day I got sick of it all... I was in the cafeteria when he said I was going to go to hell because DnD gamers try putting spells on people. I dropped my tray, cupped my hands together, opened my palms and extended it out towards him while mumbling a load of gibberish. A few seconds later I pretend to freak out, start screaming and calling him evil incarante... my words were something to the effect of: "Oh my god! You just countered my Melf's Acid Arrow spell! That's impossible! Only a powerful sorceror could ever do that! EVIL ! EVIL!" Hehe, the guy squirmed like you wouldn't believe... he shutup and left me alone for a long time after that... and I had a blast.
pestilenceawaits 04-21-04, 12:35 PM	I am Christian and have seen my share of critics over the years and the one thing I noticed about all of them was that none of them had actually seen a game played or read the books or had any actual knowledge of what the game was actually about. they had all heard the rumors that it was devil worshipping and caused kids to kill themselves. There may be those out there who are into the occult and use dnd as the scape goat for their bad behavior or parents who don't want to admit they may have made a mistake in the raising of their children. so the few hours that they played dnd caused them to commit suicide when the several years the parents had to raise them had no affect at all. The group I play with all have bachelor or graduate degrees and all belong to the same church just because one of the guys is an engineer he doesn't allow the imaginary existence of magic scare him off. and on the other hand our faith doesn't keep us from using imaginary Gods. The main influence our faith has had on our gaming is we prefer not to play evil characters because for us it is a lot more fun to be the hero. as a DM it is fun to set up some sort of dark BBEG because you know that the good guys are going to try to take him down. well I am done rambling now.
Roxlimn 04-21-04, 01:50 PM	I'm a Christian gamer, but I have absolutely no problem with polytheistic themes and magic. If I did, I would never be able to watch any sort of modern entertainment, nor buy any sort of fairy tale book, or most forms of harmless entertainment. The central theme to D&D is that it's make-believe. It's never actually true, so it never becomes a problem. People who have difficulty separating truth from make-believe should probably beware of D&D, but then they probably have to worry more about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. It's probably easier and safer for Christians to play the game as a polytheistic game as the polythestic theme distinctly separates the game from reality. It's harder to maintain a facade of make-believe and comfort if the game resembles reality too much. It's all for fun so it's better to keep hard core philosophical questions of being and salvation out of it. It's even harder to play the game with a Christian religious theme as the DM would then have to assume the role of God, a borderline heresy at least, if taken seriously. And it makes many people uncomfortable. In fact, I'd have to conclude that game is polytheistic in them because it addresses the reality that the Christian Churches collectively is one of the most powerful forces in the world today.
Abaneth 04-21-04, 03:18 PM	Thanks for the input. But I was getting kinda freaked when half of you said you were post christians. That's a little weird.
jafyfe 04-21-04, 05:46 PM	One odd show I read about described D&D as evil occult paractice. In order to get the point across, the show used two young boys pretending to play D&D. When they played the game, they were magically wisped away to the world of D&D, where they actually fought monsters using thier magic powers. Now what is odd is not so much that the movie choose to make the kids go to some far off land and fight, but that the two acters, who were pretending, are okay after doing the movie. You know, they are still Christian, they haven't become evil by pretending to kill monsters while acting. The story takes another twist when a store keeper, noticing the boys playing the back alley (yes, i play in the back alley behing a store too) steals their D&D book and throws it into the fire (i haven't been too to many stores that keep a fire going, but i guess there are some). By the end of the show we learn: [list=1] Playing D&D litterally takes you to far off lands. Stealling other people's things is okay as long as it is evil. Throwing D&D books into fires should only be done by shop keepers. [/list=1] I guess in order to prove a point some people forget their morals.
WizO_Catoblepas 04-21-04, 06:13 PM	To answer your question, yes there are some of out there that play D&D and also happen to be Christian. There's no reason why the two need to be mutually exclusive. I'm going to allow this thread to stay open since there really hasn't been an in-depth argument for or against a certain religion or belief and thus no attacks have been made against a religion. However, please keep in mind that once this happens, I'm going to close the thread. There's no reason to allow attacks against a person's religious belief, whether the belief happens to be Christian or not. In essense, the best advice is to keep the answers to non-offensive reasons why you are able to keep your religious beliefs separate to your gaming interests. Thanks.
Nived 04-21-04, 06:24 PM	I like many others here am a christian (Lutherian) and play D&D. I don't think it gets between me and my faith. Remember, a lot of Christians are open minded and can tell the difference between a game and well, whatever it is those people who call the game 'evil' think it is. For instance, my gaming group games in my buddy John's basement. John's father is a Presbiterian (sp) Pastor, and a rather cool guy, he comes down (usually to grab coffee since we steal his coffee maker on game nights) and asks how the games going, he has no issues with D&D, nor Vampire: The Masquerade which we play on occation, or Hunter, Mage, or any of the other games we play. Though by unspoken agreement we never played Demon: The Fallen over at John's... that just seems a little too weird to have demon PCs while in a Pastors house. *Shrug* Anyway I think that D&D and other role playing games are a positive outlet, and can be used easily to teach moral values and to have some fun. Unfortunatly many people still believe the D&D is evil hype from days gone by and would rather condem it than learn what it really is.
Eri 04-21-04, 06:41 PM	I am a Christian Dungeons and Dragons player myself. So is my twin sister (we are boy/girl twins). I believe that polytheism is bad, but the magic is not real. My relatives have told me that some non-Christian players were so deep into the Dungeons and Dragons game that they thought that they were really in it. So, it all depends.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 04-21-04, 06:54 PM	Originally posted by Eri I am a Christian Dungeons and Dragons player myself. So is my twin sister (we are boy/girl twins). I believe that polytheism is bad, but the magic is not real. My relatives have told me that some non-Christian players were so deep into the Dungeons and Dragons game that they thought that they were really in it. So, it all depends. Anyone, regardless of religion, who loses the ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality has already lost their mind long ago. Religion has no effect on your sanity (unless you worship the Cthuluh pantheon ;) ). Therefor we conclude that 1. The relatives you speak of where misinformed or lying 2. The people they spoke of played the game after they had become insane 3. A little of 1 and 2. *stands sweating wondering when thread will explode into flames as they always seem to do* *wonders if merely suggesting the idea has tilted the subconcious of the posters and increased chance of flaming* *slowly backs away and breaks into a run* *hides*
Incenjucar 04-21-04, 07:47 PM	My theory is this: If Wiccans, Pagans, and those who worship anything else represented within D&D books (What's mythology to some is religion to others) without an issue, despite many possible insults (I have a Wiccan friend who gets very angry at the idea of inherently good or evil magic, for instance) than Biblical Monotheists (Because Christians aren't the only ones who believe in this), whose faith is not mentioned nearly as directly in the books (And even then, it usually conforms -- angels are good, demons and devils are evil, etc), should have LESS of a problem. D&D makes a strong point of avoiding suggesting that the BM faiths' aspects are this or that. Any fear of D&D is, thus, wholly irrational, unless someone believes in the power of words, in which case they should avoid reading recipe cards as well.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 04-21-04, 08:11 PM	Dice the carrots, mix with cucumbers, and let cook for 2 hours. *summons and gets attacked by the hounds of tindalose*
Kupokpok 04-21-04, 08:12 PM	Methinks christian is too vague. I'm a mormon and, although I don't play due to logistical problems (no drivers liscense, other friends defected to WarHammer 40k :rolleyes: ), I'm a bit of a fanatic. I have about 5-6 books, just no DMG or MM. Pitiful, no? anyway, my 2 cp is just that the term christian is too vague, especially in the context of this thread.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 04-21-04, 08:28 PM	True. And the question is kind of silly. It's not like somebody will come and say "I hate DnD and think it is occult, evil, and the path to satanism" on the DnD message boards.
Sypons 04-21-04, 09:08 PM	That is a good point R.M. But I don't actually think that "do you think DnD is evil" was the question. I think he was originally ask what is your opinion on the subject. I think he wanted to know how other christians viewed the subject. On that note, as a christian, I hav to say that if you can't tell that it is false, you need help.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-21-04, 10:12 PM	Originally posted by R.M.G.C.L.F. Dice the carrots, mix with cucumbers, and let cook for 2 hours. *summons and gets attacked by the hounds of tindalose* This is why you cut the vegetables in curves instead of cutting them in straight lines and angles... ;) But back on topic, my own group is composed of myself (protestant), an agnostic, a lapsed Catholic, a practicing Catholic, a newly 'converted' atheist still trying to figure out her beliefs or lack thereof, and one player that I don't know because real world religion doesn't enter into the playing of what everyone understands is a game. Granted the game (3e Planescape) tackles some more complex moral and ethical issues than most, but at the end of the day we have fun and its all fiction regardless of the time we might spend playing and speculating on my plot, and the time I put into running the game. Anyone, regardless of religion, should understand its all fiction, unless they're nuts in the head or very grossly misinformed.
Abaneth 04-21-04, 11:42 PM	Thanks for all the input. My Mom is one of the people who hates D&D and will not reason. She even got material for "he-who-will-not-be-named" and showed it to me. I can't play now, but once i'm in college, i'm home free. Anyway, i think that if there is anything objectional about the game(like polytheism, etc.) you can just discard it and not have it in your campaign setting. By christian I mean someone who believes that Jesus died for us and redeemed our sins.
Falstaff the Fighter 04-22-04, 12:20 AM	The second someone would try reasoning with me citing J.C. (And I don't mean Jesus.) for their information is the second that person's opinion became valueless. I mean, there has been several Christians here who have supported D&D opposed to ol Jack who denounces it, but oh well. I guess we are all wrong and he is right. lol Good luck man, I hope you get to go to college soon.
Abaneth 04-22-04, 12:25 AM	this is off-topic, but Falstaff, does your name come form that shakespeare "Henry IV" play?
Incenjucar 04-22-04, 12:53 AM	The grandest irony of the silly "You'll become a Satanist!" thing, is that Satanism (At least that which is in the Satanic Bible), is basically just a form of hedonistic -atheism-, and polytheism is as legally valid as anything else. Unfortunately, those who 'get told' rather than learn on their own like adults, do as often with other faiths as with anything else. Thank heavens for people like Shemmy existing to counteract some of the blind hatred and religious/non-religious intolerance and ignorance. The funniest thing, really, is that D&D is a game DESIGNED by monotheistic individuals, from the very beginning, and I wager mostly even now. Heck, (Wyatt?) was a pastor. There may be too LITTLE "seperation of Church and Dungeon". :smirk:
Falstaff the Fighter 04-22-04, 01:13 AM	this is off-topic, but Falstaff, does your name come form that shakespeare "Henry IV" play? Actually, it is from the 1e Player's Handbook. Falstaff the Fighter is an example character in it. And Gary Gygax, the grandaddy of D&D is a Jehova's Witness.
Spongly 04-22-04, 03:24 AM	Originally posted by Incenjucar My theory is this: If Wiccans, Pagans, and those who worship anything else represented within D&D books (What's mythology to some is religion to others) without an issue, despite many possible insults (I have a Wiccan friend who gets very angry at the idea of inherently good or evil magic, for instance) than Biblical Monotheists (Because Christians aren't the only ones who believe in this), whose faith is not mentioned nearly as directly in the books (And even then, it usually conforms -- angels are good, demons and devils are evil, etc), should have LESS of a problem. D&D makes a strong point of avoiding suggesting that the BM faiths' aspects are this or that. Any fear of D&D is, thus, wholly irrational, unless someone believes in the power of words, in which case they should avoid reading recipe cards as well. Come on! People like that are being a bit pissy about what is just a game, when it comes down to it - hell, I find it hard to be offended even when WoC releases a book containing game rules for folks that I believe in in real life - Deities and Demigods has its Norse pantheon section for example. But you'd have to be pretty thin skinned to start getting offended by this stuff. After all, I doubt Thor has much of a problem with it. Why the hel should I?
Falstaff the Fighter 04-22-04, 03:33 AM	Why the hel should I? *drumrollll...rimshot* Baddabing, these are the jokes folks.
Incenjucar 04-22-04, 03:53 AM	I never said I agree that there's a reason to get mad. However, it's a logically worse thing for your beliefs to be mentioned in a negative light (Hades being evil, magic being aligned, etc), than to have them simply unmentioned.
Cornholio 04-22-04, 05:32 AM	Yes, the question of DnD and its relationship to your faith can be a difficult one for some, particularly those who are especially dedicated to the Lord. Makes me glad I'm an Atheist. :cool: Anyhoo, I have very infrequently run up against the JC factor (which JC do I mean? hmm... ;) ), except for once or twice in memory. Once when I was talking to this other guy about RPGs. He said his group played Star Wars RPGs frequently when they got together. I asked if they had ever played DnD, he got this mortified look on his face and said "No! That has DEMONS in it!" I just gave him a weird look and we kept talking. The second time was a bit more dramatic, though perhaps only slightly related to DnD... Our group played in a bookstore cafe (was kind of a problem at times, but we didn't have any options at that point). Usually people just ignored us. However, once (for the record, this was in Texas, A.K.A. the armpit of America) a woman came up to us and inquired what the game was about, alluding to suspicion about evil. I promptly replied "Satan worship, mostly." as is my sardonic manner. I quickly assured her that I was joking, and that the game was completely unrelated to satan or anything of that nature, citing as an example how the group had come together to play it. Pointing them out, I said "Hes a protestant christian, hes Jewish, he's agnostic and I'm an atheist." Poor choice of words. She actually burst into tears, which I found immensely confusing (me being naieve at the time). Quizzicly I asked her what was the matter, and she replied (this was a GROWN WOMAN, at least 30 years old) that she was heartbroken that I did not know the love of God. :nonono: She wandered about the room for several more minutes sobbing and communicating this information to several random cafe-goers. Several minutes later a man who I assumed was her husband showed up. She indicated me and whispered something to him, he gave me a dirty glare and they left. Long story short, I'm still stuck here in Texas. :sad:
Luminosity 04-22-04, 06:21 AM	As a devout deist and biblical scholar, I can tell you that anyone who would try to force the idea that D&D is evil upon you is NOT a Christian. That whole "judge not lest ye be judged" thing coming back in their face. Not exactly. The verse to which you refer requires a Xian to avoid judgement of other Xians. By simply declaring another to be un-Xian, the accusor brings the accused within the realm of judgement. Thanks for the input. But I was getting kinda freaked when half of you said you were post christians. That's a little weird. Many of us once believed in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, self included. That some have yet to overcome the illusion of God does not deny the validity of that analogy. I reject the prophetic religions on moral grounds, as many do. I once did believe in God, however. Methinks christian is too vague. I'm a mormon... "Mormon" as a label for Latter Day Saints has been rejected by your most recent Prophet. You may want to make sure the title is condoned by your church before using it to describe yourself and your brethren.
Roman 04-22-04, 06:28 AM	I am an atheist, but I am very conservative (paleoconservative). You can think of me almost as a Christian who does not believe in God. ;) Being a regular visitor on this site I am naturally also a gamer. In fact, I have yet to meet any Christians IRL who claim that D&D is 'Evil'. The only ones who seem to do so is a small minority on the internet.
Incenjucar 04-22-04, 06:39 AM	Originally posted by Cornholio Poor choice of words. She actually burst into tears, which I found immensely confusing (me being naieve at the time). Quizzicly I asked her what was the matter, and she replied (this was a GROWN WOMAN, at least 30 years old) that she was heartbroken that I did not know the love of God. Sadly, this isn't that uncommon of a response. I got the same reaction from some gal in a college philosophy class. She said I made Jesus sad. My guess is that in both cases they've heard about hellfire a great deal, and the idea of anyone suffering God's 'tough love' mortifies them. Thankfully, most theists, while they may still worry over the souls of others, are a bit more rational about it. Like with anything, ignore the worst, and respect the best, as is their due. For every Falwell, there's a Shemmy.
Falstaff the Fighter 04-22-04, 06:47 AM	That some have yet to overcome the illusion of God does not deny the validity of that analogy. That is the first rude thing to pop up here, I believe. Quite sad. I am sure no Christians here appreciate someone calling God an illusion any more than atheists would appreciate being told they were all ignorant and were going to hell. Let's try and leave this thread neutral in regards to stuff such as that, okay? Everyone is entitled to their belief, and no one here has a right to belittle that person for it or refer to it in a manner that would indicate it is flawed.
CuCulain42 04-22-04, 07:56 AM	Originally posted by Luminosity Not exactly. The verse to which you refer requires a Xian to avoid judgement of other Xians. By simply declaring another to be un-Xian, the accusor brings the accused within the realm of judgement. Uhm, Jesus does not make a distinction between Christians and not Christians. According to the Gospel of Luke, 6:37 "Judge not and ye shall not be judged: condemn not and ye shall not be condemned: forgive and ye shall be forgiven:" and Luke 6:27 reads " But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you." As a Christian we should attempt to bring those lost from the fold to the flock of Jesus, but we do not judge those that are not there because every human being on the face of the planet can become Christian if they accept Jesus into their heart. Anyways enough of the preaching. I'm not bashing anyones belief here just clarifying what Christian beliefs are.:) I would also for the record (and this is because I'm a bit bullish about such things) I would appreciat if we were not referred to as "Xians," the word is Christian. Originally posted by Cornholio for the record, this was in Texas, A.K.A. the armpit of America For the record Battle Mountain Nevada is the armpit of America (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A31628-2001Nov28&notFound=true):) Anyways, I've never played in a game where Anyone had any problems with real life faith, and I've played with a broad spectrum of players, my group now is mostly agnostics, with one other christian and a neopagan, Not really sure what her faith is but thats the best description from what little she talked about. With few exceptions most religions teachs us to abhore "Evil" and as such if DnD was such an "Evil" game you would expect most other religions to have issues with it. As it stands it is just a relatively small group of vocal Christians that have objections. I actually believe that (not counting that group and those that play) most Christians just don't care about the game one way or another, after all, gamers are a "minority" group. Just ask some of us who can bearly scare a group together.
Yorlum 04-22-04, 08:07 AM	Originally posted by Falstaff the Fighter Why the hel should I? *drumrollll...rimshot* Baddabing, these are the jokes folks. I'm not Thor about it... Odin't want anyone to get upset! Sorry folks, that's Asgard as it gets...
Yorlum 04-22-04, 08:12 AM	Originally posted by CuCulain42 Uhm, Jesus does not make a distinction between Christians and not Christians. According to the Gospel of Luke, 6:37 "Judge not and ye shall not be judged: condemn not and ye shall not be condemned: forgive and ye shall be forgiven:" and Luke 6:27 reads " But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you." As a Christian we should attempt to bring those lost from the fold to the flock of Jesus, but we do not judge those that are not there because every human being on the face of the planet can become Christian if they accept Jesus into their heart. Anyways enough of the preaching. I'm not bashing anyones belief here just clarifying what Christian beliefs are.:) I would also for the record (and this is because I'm a bit bullish about such things) I would appreciat if we were not referred to as "Xians," the word is Christian. What he said! I'll add that I don't think that any of us Christians will try to Proselytize, but hope that the athiests will not either.
Cyferwolf 04-22-04, 10:07 AM	I think it mostly depends on how comfortable you are with the idea of play acting and role playing, and (if your parish community is important to you) what your congregation thinks of it, and how open minded they are. I was a catholic till my I hit college*and played dnd well before that. In general I never had a problem with it, and for the most part people at my parish never thought twice about it. But my priest did ask me once how I thought it fit with the catholic views and was actually pretty cool when I explained everything and showed him the books. Most people are just really misinformed about what people do in the game and the content of the books. if their willing to take a look at them most of them see really quick that they're pretty harmless. its really only the real old school dogmatic churches that i've found have any real problem even after seeing the books. the best cure I've found is being open and showing them that you enjoy playing a game based entirely upon imagination and statistics. then they'll just think you're a creative nerd instead of a heretic. on second thought, maybe heretic is better... *(converted to agnosticism(sp?) out of disatisfaction with dogma)
Jontg 04-22-04, 10:55 AM	Well, I'm an agnostic, but one thing I know for sure is that D&D is only as demonic as you make it. For that matter, even if you do run an evil campaign where the PCs are deranged villains who murder and pillage for no discernable reason, it won't do much to your chances in the hereafter unless you allow the game to seep into your everyday life.
Spongly 04-22-04, 01:37 PM	Originally posted by Yorlum I'm not Thor about it... Odin't want anyone to get upset! Sorry folks, that's Asgard as it gets... You're Thor? - I'm tho thore I can hardly pith! And so on and so on. Yeah, sorry 'bout that! :D
Luminosity 04-22-04, 03:14 PM	As a Christian we should attempt to bring those lost from the fold to the flock of Jesus, but we do not judge those that are not... Sigh. And how do you determine who is and is not a part of the "flock"? It starts with a "J". It ends in "udgement". And read the book, not the individual verse. "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine" (Matthew 7:6) ...but don't judge who are swine, don't judge who are dogs? "Beware of false prophets...You will know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:15,16,20) ...but don't judge them to be false prophets? How would that be accomplished? "And if you brother sins, go and reprove him...?" "And if he refuses to listen...tell it to the church"? (Matthew 18:15,17) ...but do this without judging your brother to be sinful, right? "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Matthew 3:7) ...I can call you this without judging you, right? "Judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24) ...but don't judge. "Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?" (Luke 12:57) ...no comment. "He that is spiritual judgeth all things" (1 Corinthians 2:15) ...speaks for itself. "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple" (Romans 16:17-18) "Come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord" (2 Corinthians 6:17, read verses 14-18) "...have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them " (Ephesians 5:1 1) "Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good" (Romans 12:9) "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test, judge] the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world " ( 1 John 4:1 ) "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.... If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 John 7,10-11) How is any of this accomplished, how does any of it apply, if Xians are denied the right to make spiritual distinctions? Read closely and realize: tolerance is a sin. Allowing sin to thrive is tantamount to committing that sin yourself. Tolerance, according to strict interpretation of your dogma, is the work of The Adversary. Now, the verse in question. Pardon me for getting my Christs crossed: the verse that distinguishes between Xians and non-xians is elsewhere and is not currently under discussion. "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye" (Matthew 7:1-5). Observe the self-boldened portion. This verse is addressed, not to Xians as a whole, but to a hypocrite. Unless you are a hypocrite, accusing others of sins less severe than those that you yourself commit, this verse does not apply to you. I would appreciat if we were not referred to as "Xians," the word is Christian. I would appreciate it if Barry Manilow would stop making "music". "X" has been an appropriate abbreviation for Christ since centuries before you were born. Earliest documentation of X as an abbreviation for Xristos comes in at around AD 100, and devouts such as Wycliff used the term. If anything, "Christ" is the more vulgar term and "Xristos" or simply "X" the purer.
Ramius_Mordale 04-22-04, 05:38 PM	Well this is thread is going to get closed down now. I thought it was just someone that was a Christian asking if other Christians played the game and what they thought about the game. I don't think this should be a battle of WILLs on what it is to be a Christian or any faith or philiosphy. AND IN ANYCASE, people should always be respectful of other people no matter what religion/philiosphy they serve. If you want to discuss religious texts and argue about theology in general find a site (that is most definiately out there and is discussed everyday everywhere in the world) to talk about religious debates. Just keep things diplomatic and be polite like ya mama says. :P As I just said stick to what the post is discussing and read the very first post if you don't know what that is. :) Smile your on camara! *Random saying for the day!* Now you may proceed.
AvengedMutablegenus 04-22-04, 06:00 PM	I'm catholic (a sub-sect of christianity)
Incenjucar 04-22-04, 06:28 PM	I'm going to have to agree with Luminosity here. While it's true that most Christians don't run around trying to push there ways on others, and some are not only tolerant, but accepting, it's not exactly the default based on the book. Not the Core rules, as it were. Even the Golden rule can be lead to mean "If you would wish to be converted from sin by force, do so to your neighbor". Since damnation is considered to be much worse than any earthly torture by a large number of faiths... Personally, I prefer "First, do no harm", which, thankfully, is embraced by monotheists as easily as anything else. The bottom line, there are numerous Christian D&Ders. Probably more than there are atheists and agnostics and less common faiths in the game, considered the sheer numbers. It's just a game, and has no bearing on the supernatural, nor on morality. Heck, they had d20s around Jesus's time, and he didn't exactly warn people to avoid them.
Transit 04-22-04, 06:46 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar Heck, they had d20s around Jesus's time, and he didn't exactly warn people to avoid them. Actually, if you look closely at Leonardo Davinci's painting of the Last Supper, I think you can see a few D20s on the table. "Judas, you have entered the door to the north..." :angel:
mcnathan 04-22-04, 06:52 PM	For starters yes, I am a Christian, and a gamer so obviously I'll be biased in my response ( Imagine this statement: I'm a gaming Christian, and yes D&D is evil, and leads to moral bankrupcy. Right :D ). I began gaming before becoming a Christian, and continued gaming after my conversion, and let me say the occult was never an issue. However, I am concerned with something more dangerous than the "occult". As Christians we are called by Jesus to "die to our self", as in various aspects of our sinful nature need to be removed from our lives, and personalities. But I've noticed a disturbing tendency among other Christian I game with, and that is getting a bit too into their character. I know what you're thinking "What blasphemy is this? Too into your character? Stone him!!" What I mean is they begin to get so wraped up in their character they incorporate certain "undesirable traits" of their character into their own personal life, traits very unbecoming of a disciple of Jesus (i.e: deceit, anger, lewdness, etc..). I gamed with one guy who would cheat his die rolls while gaming because his character would do anything to win. Well, the moral behind my rant is that as Christians we need to make sure every aspect of our lives is glorifying and God and presenting a good example of Christianity to the lost, and if gaming isn't helping someone do that they should probably take a break from it and see where their heart is. BTW: In regards to the occult, and sorcery; the Bible doesn't say it's not real, just don't do it.
Ringmereth 04-22-04, 07:58 PM	Ah, another one of these threads... okay. Christian? Check. Gamer? Check. Any problems here? Nope. I've yet to meet anyone who condemns D&D players and tells them they'll go to hell for it. And if I did meet someone who did, I would tell them they're a total hypocrite. Why? Because I've never seen anyone condemning Lord of the Rings, or Narnia, or most other classic fantasy novels. Does LotR have magic, demons and supernatural creatures, and evil? Yes, but lots of people at my church love it. And really, even if you don't like fantasy in general, you'd have to totally excude yourself from almost all forms of media. No TV or movies, almost no music, not many books or magazines. And I don't know anyone who does that. If anyone condemns me for playing D&D, they will only serve to add a little humor to my day.
Incenjucar 04-22-04, 08:22 PM	In some cases, I think they just get in to the habit of thinking D&D=evil, because it's become a stereotype, like "white men can't jump". My grandmother reffered to D&D as "Devil Books", but never really tried to stop me from using them, and I've had a few people ask me, "Are they really evil?" or "Are they really Satanic"? And I just say "Nope, all those stories are just people trying to make excuses for bad parenting", and they move on. Of course, being an atheist and an able combatant, people generally avoid trying to shove things down my throat -anyways-. It may be that only those who think they have power over others try to force it down one's throat.
Wil_Hyral 04-22-04, 08:53 PM	Open-minded Christians always strike me as a ravenous pack of wolves that have no interest in carnivorous activity at all. Thank you all for being tolerant toward the game, and not just doing something worse as so many less-open-minded of your kind have. The idea is, if it's entertainment, then it can't be really taking false idols or devil-worship. That's sorta like saying any movie you see is your new dogma and you have no choice in the matter. Lord of the Rings would just be blasphemous, and I'm pretty sure Tolkien didn't intend that at all.
Mountainking 04-22-04, 09:02 PM	Hey -- since everyone seems to be in agreement here, what do you say to taking this thread from this D&D site to a Christian site, and see what non-gaming Christians think? Then it could truly be a conversation of differing opinions.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 04-22-04, 09:06 PM	It would be less one-sided and preaching to the choir, but a flame war could break out. Specifically thoughk, what would be such a message board?
Dagda Mor 04-22-04, 09:09 PM	I've been a christian all my life and have played D&D for one and a half years. I actually did a persuasive essay on this subject a month ago. After reviewing arguments from all sides, I came to the conclusion that D&D can be bad for christians, in that it can draw your attention away from the rest of your life. However, the same thing is true of all other forms of entertainment, such as video games and chess. So IMO, as long as you're reasonably self-aware you should be fine.
ORC_Tuhteth 04-22-04, 09:36 PM	Okay, I think this thread has run its course.