Post/Author/DateTime	Post
urbanmonkeygod04 01-22-04, 11:00 PM	Did people smoke anything akin to cigarettes "back in the day"? I mean, pipes, this and that, fill me in ya'll, thanks
Edymnion 01-22-04, 11:08 PM	Depends on if you accept the standard history you find in textbooks, or the history supported by the evidence. Tobacco is a new world native plant. There simply wasn't any in europe until the Americas were discovered. Thats the normally accepted account of history. However, ancient egyptian mummies have been found with tobacco and cocaine in their systems, both of which were ONLY found in the americas. Multiple tests have been run, and cross contamination has been ruled out. Nobody is quite sure HOW these new world drugs managed to get to ancient egypt centuries before the new world was officially "found", but there it is. Marijuana is also native to north america. So no, in real life medieval europe, there was nothing that could be smoked. In D&D though, tobacco is a common cash crop, and you can buy it for a gp per pound.
Nytmare 01-22-04, 11:11 PM	The History of Tobacco (http://www.tobaccoprogram.org/tobaccorefguide/ch4/Chpt4TOC.htm)
Nytmare 01-22-04, 11:35 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion However, ancient egyptian mummies have been found with tobacco and cocaine in their systems, both of which were ONLY found in the americas. Multiple tests have been run, and cross contamination has been ruled out. Nobody is quite sure HOW these new world drugs managed to get to ancient egypt centuries before the new world was officially "found", but there it is. There are of course, also the following (http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~wayfarer/anomaly/archaeology/cocaine_trans.htm) explanations (http://intarch.ac.uk/antiquity/buckland01.html).
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-22-04, 11:42 PM	If we're going to go in depth, this should go to the mature Boards. I've heard one theory that tabacco may well have been able to grow in the River Nile 4,000 years ago. Not too far a leap considering the Sahara was a lust plain 3500 years ago. Of couse, I'm a Stargate fan, so Chain smoking Go'auld are an amusing possibility.
Ssussunriyh 01-22-04, 11:58 PM	In fictional D&D terms, halflings first invented the practice of smoking "pipe-weed." I have yet to encounter any references to cigarettes, but pipes most certainly do exist in the various campaign settings, and I suppose cigars wouldn't be too far-fetched. IRL, cigarettes were first introduced in the mid-19th century, in Georgian or Victorian England. Many smokers considered them skimpy, insubstantial things compared to pipes or cigars.
Hengwrt Ellesmere 01-23-04, 12:14 AM	Halflings also ate taters... POH-TAY-TOES... boil 'em, mash e'm, stick 'em in a stew... oh what I wouldn't give for some nice golden chips! and, er, they're a new world plant
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-23-04, 03:38 AM	Thats right ladies and Gents, hobbits are an allegory for America. :D
Henchcritter 01-23-04, 03:54 AM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh IRL, cigarettes were first introduced in the mid-19th century, in Georgian or Victorian England. Many smokers considered them skimpy, insubstantial things compared to pipes or cigars. Since paper is pretty rare and expensive, there would probably no cigarettes in D&D.
Capn Charlie 01-23-04, 04:34 AM	In the Realms(stop hissing) they had pipeweed but with the discovery of Maztica(the new world) they found real tobacco which was far superior to the pipeweed they already had. It's consistancy also allowed them to make cigars from it, something not possible with pipeweed. I can only assume people were smoking stuff other than tobacco in europe. I know they were in asia. Vaalingrade, SG is indeed awesome! Check out the description of Unther and Mulhorand sometimes. It is very similiar to the SG storyline, and predates it by some time if I am not mistaken. But then I think the mention of the "Orcgate" wars predates Warcraft as well.
Big Dawg 01-23-04, 09:20 AM	IRL, cigarettes were first introduced in the mid-19th century, in Georgian or Victorian England. Many smokers considered them skimpy, insubstantial things compared to pipes or cigars. Um correct me if i am wrong, but i believe the word cigarette is french. In french every noun has to have a gender. Cigars were originaly for men. Cigarettes were origanly for Females hence the ette on the end of the word cigar.
Nytmare 01-23-04, 09:31 AM	Originally posted by Henchcritter Since paper is pretty rare and expensive, there would probably no cigarettes in D&D. Since when is paper rare?
lukelightning 01-23-04, 09:42 AM	My character invented a special fast-burning paper so she can smoke cigarettes in half the time. Meanwhile, her party members claim they invented post-it scrolls.
Big Dawg 01-23-04, 09:51 AM	My character invented a special fast-burning paper so she can smoke cigarettes in half the time. But doesn't it canoe on you when the paper burns to fast? ;)
SputnikCorp 01-23-04, 10:42 AM	i would include tobacco in my game. it would mostly be smoked in a pipe. i can include a culture that would wrap it's tobacco in it's own weed, like cigars. it would be a stretch of the imaginination to include cigarettes. making of cigarettes (as we know them now) are made through a complex mechanical process. even the hand held machine that you'd use to roll homemade smokes would be hard to derive with medieval technology. even the paper has to be specialy made. of coarse you can have the fantasy equivalent of zig-zag papers. this also arises the issue of addiction and health problems of the PCs.
Sulaco 01-23-04, 10:49 AM	Originally posted by urbanmonkeygod04 Did people smoke anything akin to cigarettes "back in the day"? I mean, pipes, this and that, fill me in ya'll, thanks Tobacco is listed in D&D equipment lists. Cigars are likely (I've seen ofifcial pics of cigar-smoking D&D mages somewhere), cigars are less likely, and pipes are a given.
Sulaco 01-23-04, 10:56 AM	Originally posted by Edymnion Depends on if you accept the standard history you find in textbooks, or the history supported by the evidence. Tobacco is a new world native plant. There simply wasn't any in europe until the Americas were discovered. Thats the normally accepted account of history. However, ancient egyptian mummies have been found with tobacco and cocaine in their systems, both of which were ONLY found in the americas. Multiple tests have been run, and cross contamination has been ruled out. Nobody is quite sure HOW these new world drugs managed to get to ancient egypt centuries before the new world was officially "found", but there it is. I don't doubt for a moment that there was international trade far earlier than ever thought possible. Evidence for this goes far beyond the mummies and includes ancient Indian temples with carvings of pineapples, another plant which is native only to the New World. History is a far more complex animal than we assume. We like hard and fast dates and easily identifiable events, but history has a nasty habit of not supplying them so we have to do it ourselves. We create artifical benchmarks to make ourselves more comfortable, to cut history into nice, bite-sized pieces. There is still a great deal of resistance to the idea that the Vikings "discovered" North America centuries before Columbus did, even though Viking settlements have been found on Newfoundland. And of course it is ludicrous to suggest that anyone "discovered" a continent on which people had been living for millenia.
Edymnion 01-23-04, 11:05 AM	Originally posted by SputnikCorp making of cigarettes (as we know them now) are made through a complex mechanical process. even the hand held machine that you'd use to roll homemade smokes would be hard to derive with medieval technology. Um, no? You can hand roll cigarettes quite easily. You get some shredded tobacco, a rectangle of paper, and thats it. Pour the tobacco on the paper, roll it up in a tube, lick the edge, and smoosh it down. Instant cigarette. Was used by the cowboys for years, and is actually making a comeback since the price of cigarettes are going up faster than the price of the paper and tobacco. You don't need machines of any kind to make cigarettes or cigars. Quick history lesson, cigarettes are little cigars. They were made by the poorer people that would take the tobacco out of the discarded cigar butts from the rich. Only poor underclass people smoked the things. Anyone that was anyone smoked real cigars, and cigarette smokers were looked down on as gutter trash. Of course, in D&D times, chances are you wouldn't live long enough to suffer the ill-effects of smoking. You either wouldn't live long enough normally to get cancer, or you simply couldn't afford tobacco in large enough quantities to be a hazard.
lukelightning 01-23-04, 11:06 AM	No, it is perfectly fine to say someone discovered a continent. Europe was unaware of the Americas until dicovered by Europeans; it is the bringing of new knowledge back to Europe that is the discovery. If Native Americans had taken a journey across the Atlantic and found Europe, then they would have "discovered" Europe from their point of view. And back to cigarettes: There is no reason to adhere to real life medieval plants in a D&D world. You are free to have tobacco and potatoes and tomatoes and maize in an otherwise European-ish setting. Or even something more exotic. Originally posted by Sulaco And of course it is ludicrous to suggest that anyone "discovered" a continent on which people had been living for millenia.
lukelightning 01-23-04, 11:08 AM	Sure you will... elves live for hundreds of years! Plenty of time to turn their lungs into a cancerous, tar-stained mess. But a simple cure disease spell will help you. Originally posted by Edymnion Of course, in D&D times, chances are you wouldn't live long enough to suffer the ill-effects of smoking. You either wouldn't live long enough normally to get cancer, or you simply couldn't afford tobacco in large enough quantities to be a hazard.
Big Dawg 01-23-04, 11:10 AM	Um, no? You can hand roll cigarettes quite easily. You get some shredded tobacco, a rectangle of paper, and thats it. Pour the tobacco on the paper, roll it up in a tube, lick the edge, and smoosh it down. Instant cigarette. Was used by the cowboys for years, and is actually making a comeback since the price of cigarettes are going up faster than the price of the paper and tobacco. right on. and you can always use a plant leaf. after all paper comes from a plant. Quick history lesson, cigarettes are little cigars. They were made by the poorer people that would take the tobacco out of the discarded cigar butts from the rich. Only poor underclass people smoked the things. Anyone that was anyone smoked real cigars, and cigarette smokers were looked down on as gutter trash. This I dissagree with just a bit. though cigareetes were in fact mini cigars they were originally made for women, not by poor people picking up butts and rolling up new ones. Men smoked cigars and ladies smoked cigarettes which were smaller thiner more feminine cigars.
Big Dawg 01-23-04, 11:24 AM	Sure you will... elves live for hundreds of years! Plenty of time to turn their lungs into a cancerous, tar-stained mess. But a simple cure disease spell will help you yeah if any DM tried to give my character cancr for smoking i'd just hock up a lung and have the cleric heal me. then people would say see smoking is ok. I mean why would the &D tobacco growers lie to us? if your dead, you can't smoke. ;)
Edymnion 01-23-04, 11:26 AM	Originally posted by Nytmare There are of course, also the following (http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~wayfarer/anomaly/archaeology/cocaine_trans.htm) explanations (http://intarch.ac.uk/antiquity/buckland01.html). I read both of those. The first one suggests some form of tobacco native to the Nile valley, but still says the prescence of Cocaine is a complete mystery, while the other doesn't touch on it at all. Fact still stands. There IS nicotine and cocaine in ancient egyptian mummies, and contemporary science says neither of these substances could possibly have gotten to egypt until after 1500. Doesn't matter what the nicotine was used for (smoking or embalming), it is still being used.
lukelightning 01-23-04, 11:29 AM	Hmm...sounds like tobacco and coca should be material components for the Create Undead spell. Be suspicious of anyone buying tobacco products...they could be an evil necromancer! Originally posted by Edymnion . There IS nicotine and cocaine in ancient egyptian mummies, and contemporary science says neither of these substances could possibly have gotten to egypt until after 1500. Doesn't matter what the nicotine was used for (smoking or embalming), it is still being used.
Edymnion 01-23-04, 11:31 AM	Originally posted by lukelightning Hmm...sounds like tobacco and coca should be material components for the Create Undead spell. Be suspicious of anyone buying tobacco products...they could be an evil necromancer! Lol, also be suspicious of any zombies that are zoning out or that just seem really calm and laid back.
Big Dawg 01-23-04, 11:32 AM	There IS nicotine and cocaine in ancient egyptian mummies, and contemporary science says neither of these substances could possibly have gotten to egypt until after 1500. Doesn't matter what the nicotine was used for (smoking or embalming), it is still being used. yeah that's weird. the continental plates of the earth were at one point all together, so maybe when they were close and people were walking across the land bridge from asia to alaska some small things were moved to new areas. then as the things shifted those routes were lost and only a few remains were left. BTW coke is out of your system in 72 hours, so if there was coke in a mummy, it would have to have been taken at or near death, or had been given after death.
Sulaco 01-23-04, 11:43 AM	Originally posted by Big Dawg This I dissagree with just a bit. though cigareetes were in fact mini cigars they were originally made for women, not by poor people picking up butts and rolling up new ones. Men smoked cigars and ladies smoked cigarettes which were smaller thiner more feminine cigars. Cigarette is the feminine form of the word cigar, but that does not mean that they were made for women. They were named such because they were smaller, thinner, and more diminutive cigars, and thus were more female in shape and appearance. Though some women did smoke, it was quite taboo to do so for many years. Commonplace women smokers are largely a result of the feminist revolution of the 20th century. Remember "You've come a long way baby"?
Big Dawg 01-23-04, 11:59 AM	Remember "You've come a long way baby"? no i am not familiar with that, what was it?
Bacon and Eggs 01-23-04, 12:02 PM	... an ad campaign, for the ladies supposedly.
Nytmare 01-23-04, 12:07 PM	"You've come a long way baby" was an old Virginia Slims ad campaign (http://it.stlawu.edu/~spapson/archive/x0mhenr/Vas.html).
Ssussunriyh 01-23-04, 12:22 PM	Originally posted by Nytmare Since when is paper rare? In Medieval Europe, paper-making was virtually unknown. All writing was done on parchment, and it took an entire sheepskin to make one large sheet of parchment, so it was expensive. Granted, the ancient Egyptians used papyrus, rag paper was made in the Middle East, and rice paper was used in the Far East, but the Europeans were a little behind in the paper-making department.
Nytmare 01-23-04, 12:23 PM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh In Medieval Europe, paper-making was virtually unknown. Since when are we playing D&D in Medieval Europe?
JLP 01-23-04, 12:44 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion You get some shredded tobacco, a rectangle of paper, and thats it. Pour the tobacco on the paper, roll it up in a tube, lick the edge, and smoosh it down. Instant cigarette. If only it were that easy.... Originally posted by Big Dawg yeah that's weird. the continental plates of the earth were at one point all together, so maybe when they were close and people were walking across the land bridge from Asia to Alaska some small things were moved to new areas. :teach: The continents haven't been that close for several tens of millions of years. The original continent, "Pangea," had already begun separating long before man was even a fuzzy little egg-sucking shrew-thingy. The theory is that Asiatic man came across the ice that spanned the Bearing Straits during the last ice age (roughly 40-50 thousand years ago), following the game. Occasional discoveries of European skulls also suggests that Europeans may have found a way to come west while Asiatic man was traveling east. Sorry to pontificate.
Sulaco 01-23-04, 12:44 PM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh In Medieval Europe, paper-making was virtually unknown. All writing was done on parchment, and it took an entire sheepskin to make one large sheet of parchment, so it was expensive. Granted, the ancient Egyptians used papyrus, rag paper was made in the Middle East, and rice paper was used in the Far East, but the Europeans were a little behind in the paper-making department. Not "all" writing was done on parchment, as the other types of papaer you mentioned were imported inot Europe (though not in great quantity). Also, it doesn't require a single sheepskin per sheet of parchment. To maximize the number of shets that could be made they would actually stitch odd-sized pieces of skin together to make sheets of parchment. This wasn't so prevelant in large single pieces such as scrolls or documents, but can be seen in many medievel books. As to the cigarette issue, normal paper, and particulalry heavy hand-made paper, is ill-suited for cigarettes. It just doesn't burn right. Using this paper for cigarettes is akin to using normal string as a candle wick. It just doesn't work.
Sulaco 01-23-04, 12:46 PM	Originally posted by Bacon and Eggs ... an ad campaign, for the ladies supposedly. Not supposedly. It was an ad campaign for Virgina Slims, a cigarette brand designed specifically for women. The point of it was that women had some a long way and now could smoke openly without being looked down on.
Big Dawg 01-23-04, 01:12 PM	The continents haven't been that close for several tens of millions of years. The original continent, "Pangea," had already begun separating long before man was even a fuzzy little egg-sucking shrew-thingy. The theory is that Asiatic man came across the ice that spanned the Bearing Straits during the last ice age (roughly 40-50 thousand years ago), following the game. Occasional discoveries of European skulls also suggests that Europeans may have found a way to come west while Asiatic man was traveling east. Sorry to pontificate. no need to be sorry. I was just trying to think of a way that tobacco and charlie got anchient egypt. thanks for the corrections.
Ssussunriyh 01-23-04, 01:14 PM	Originally posted by Nytmare Since when are we playing D&D in Medieval Europe? Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE me! But the Middle Ages in Europe is usually the historical setting upon which most D&D campaigns are based, at least superficially. Otherwise, you wouldn't be playing Dungeons & Dragons, you'd be playing some other variety of RPG. And when you can offer some real input, instead of just nay-saying everything with a "Since when...?" then maybe your posts will have some value to this thread.
Edymnion 01-23-04, 02:34 PM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh And when you can offer some real input, instead of just nay-saying everything with a "Since when...?" then maybe your posts will have some value to this thread. Okay, that was just really rude and uncalled for. He's right. Dungeons & Dragons is based on a PSUEDO-Medieval European setting. Mideival Europe did not have martial arts monks. It did not have kamas. It did not have spiked chains, or tobacco. It did have guns though. D&D is not Medieval Europe. It is its own little world, and the realities of ours do not always apply to it. There is parchment in the D&D world, and there is paper. Its in the DMG as a standard good. Paper costs 4sp per sheet. Parchment costs 2sp per sheet. It does no good arguing over whether or not the real mideival europe had it or not, D&D DOES have it. So lets play nice with each other, 'kay?
Dudeeehm 01-23-04, 02:42 PM	Originally posted by lukelightning My character invented a special fast-burning paper so she can smoke cigarettes in half the time. Meanwhile, her party members claim they invented post-it scrolls. I really wish I didn't know what this was referencing. Slightly on topic: if I reminded my players that smoking existed during the game, we would end up having to play on the porch! I'm trying to focus thier attention off cigarettes for a couple hours, not remind them they want one!
JLP 01-23-04, 02:56 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion Mideival Europe did not have martial arts monks. It did not have kamas. It did not have spiked chains, or tobacco. It did have guns though. Wasn't there an order of nuns somewhere in the Adriatic that were really large-breasted smokin' hot elf chicks in chain-mail bikinis all into tatts and piercing and each other? I seem to recall reading about that somewhere.
Nytmare 01-23-04, 03:20 PM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE me! But the Middle Ages in Europe is usually the historical setting upon which most D&D campaigns are based, at least superficially. Otherwise, you wouldn't be playing Dungeons & Dragons, you'd be playing some other variety of RPG. And when you can offer some real input, instead of just nay-saying everything with a "Since when...?" then maybe your posts will have some value to this thread. As it is, they're little more than spam. Whew. Flame a guy for asking a question why dontcha? I guess the important thing to do would be to look at why paper was "rare" in Medieval Europe. The knowledge was there. Paper originated in China in at some point before the birth of Christ. About 700 years later (aprox. 500 AD) it made it's way to Europe. The middle ages are classified as what, about 500-1500 AD? They had the materials to make paper. The paper originally made in China was made from bamboo and rice. Granted there wasn't alot of rice and bamboo around in western Europe at the time, but the Europeans figured out how to make do with the local flora. (primarily hemp, flax, and old cloth) The primary reason why paper was rare in medieval times was because people didn't need it. The major advances in papermaking only came about in response to increases in both literacy and printing technology. If most people couldn't read or write, and the only way to make a copy of a book was to write it all out by hand, why should there be a lot of paper? It stands to reason that a hypothetical civilization with more literate people, and innumerable reasons to have paper around would not sit idly by and complain that they had nothing to write on. It's like saying that because the average lifespan in Medieval Europe was somewhere in the 20s or 30s that it stands to reason that in D&D, a civilization with both magical and alchemical healing, you'd still for some reason be lucky to make it past 25.
SputnikCorp 01-23-04, 06:31 PM	Um, no? You can hand roll cigarettes quite easily. You get some shredded tobacco, a rectangle of paper, and thats it. Pour the tobacco on the paper, roll it up in a tube, lick the edge, and smoosh it down. Instant cigarette. Was used by the cowboys for years, and is actually making a comeback since the price of cigarettes are going up faster than the price of the paper and tobacco. i said that later down my post when i meant the zig-zag rolling papers. it's not just for pot you know... all of this talk about smoking has made me regret giving up smoking. i miss the days when you couldn't see the DM across the table due to the amount of smoke in the air...come to think of it, thank god i did quit.
Demon Lightfoot 01-23-04, 10:01 PM	Originally posted by JLP Wasn't there an order of nuns somewhere in the Adriatic that were really large-breasted smokin' hot elf chicks in chain-mail bikinis all into tatts and piercing and each other? I seem to recall reading about that somewhere. Yeah, same here. I think that they rode dinosaurs, too.
Kaya Kenobi 01-23-04, 10:24 PM	Originally posted by Demon Lightfoot Yeah, same here. I think that they rode dinosaurs, too. Now that's interesting...
Edymnion 01-23-04, 10:32 PM	Originally posted by Demon Lightfoot I think that they rode dinosaurs, too. Omg, it all fits now. Dinosaur riding nuns, lightning powered trains... WE'RE LIVING IN EBERRON!!! :P
VirgilCaine 01-23-04, 10:45 PM	It's like saying that because the average lifespan in Medieval Europe was somewhere in the 20s or 30s that it stands to reason that in D&D, a civilization with both magical and alchemical healing, you'd still for some reason be lucky to make it past 25. This is the kind of thing I want to sort out for my homebrew world. Lots of diseases killing people? Not with paladins, cure diesease, Craft Wand, and crusading churches like those of Pelor. (Of course, this excludes the effects of disease-spreading churches, but still...). How about a "birth charm" giving +6 bonus on disease saves that can only be cast on a newborn child born within the last ten days, and lasts for ten years? That should cut down on infant mortality. Food shortages from too many people? Plant Growth would help somewhat, but it only increases the yield by one third. Surely some wizard or cleric would be able come up with a spell that was low enough level to allow popular casting, but effective enough to be efficient and useful.
Ssussunriyh 01-23-04, 11:45 PM	Originally posted by Nytmare Whew. Flame a guy for asking a question why dontcha? I found your "Since when is etc.?" replies to be kind of snotty, so I responded in kind. So you blame me for being offended. If you go back and look at the beginning title of this thread, you'll see that historical references are perfectly valid.
Nytmare 01-24-04, 12:33 AM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh If you go back and look at the beginning title of this thread, you'll see that historical references are perfectly valid. You're right, I totally forgot what the title of the thread was. My argument followed a fairly logical path. When Henchcritter said that paper was rare, I responded with a logical question 'why'. I didn't read it as a historical reference. I read it as "In D&D paper is rare" and it surprised me because I had never read anything alluding to that. Then you came back around to it's historical ties and my brain spat out "Since when are we playing D&D in Medieval Europe?" It wasn't snotty, it was rhetorical. You took this poorly and basically accused me of spamming the thread. I took your suggestion to heart and wrote what I consider to be a good solid post about why paper was considered rare in Europe and why it would probably not be considered rare in your average D&D world. I also touched briefly on why other "basics" of medieval Europe should not be carried over into D&D. What will make you happy?
Ssussunriyh 01-24-04, 12:41 AM	Originally posted by Nytmare What will make you happy? I'm incapable of being happy. Your best bet is to ignore me when I start snapping. Sorry, clinical depression really sucks...
Kaya Kenobi 01-24-04, 03:35 AM	Originally posted by Hengwrt Ellesmere Halflings also ate taters... POH-TAY-TOES... boil 'em, mash e'm, stick 'em in a stew... oh what I wouldn't give for some nice golden chips! and, er, they're a new world plant They're not. That's the only thing that flourishes in Russia. That's where vodka originated, I believe.. potatos are russian. sweet potatos are American, however...
Nytmare 01-24-04, 03:51 AM	Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi They're not. That's the only thing that flourishes in Russia. That's where vodka originated, I believe.. potatos are russian. sweet potatos are American, however... My research indicates: Potatoes were first cultivated in Peru, they started making their way to Europe in the late 1500s. The origin of vodka is disputed (Poland, Russia, or possibly Persia). It was originally made at some point in the 1300s as a rye based liquor. With the introduction of the popular tuber(maybe the late 1700s?), vodka changed to a more easily distilled potato base. Today vodkas are made primarily with rye, wheat, barley, or corn. History of the Potato (http://www.npcspud.com/history.htm) History of Vodka (http://www.ianxxi.com.ar/beer/vodka.htm)
Kaya Kenobi 01-24-04, 04:34 AM	Originally posted by Nytmare My research indicates: Potatoes were first cultivated in Peru, they started making their way to Europe in the late 1500s. The origin of vodka is disputed (Poland, Russia, or possibly Persia). It was originally made at some point in the 1300s as a rye based liquor. With the introduction of the popular tuber(maybe the late 1700s?), vodka changed to a more easily distilled potato base. Today vodkas are made primarily with rye, wheat, barley, or corn. History of the Potato (http://www.npcspud.com/history.htm) History of Vodka (http://www.ianxxi.com.ar/beer/vodka.htm) potato vodka will most definately knock you on your tail.. I should know... ;) The russians had it right, heh.. From Peru, eh? I thought those were a different tuber, called something else... I can't remember, but the tuber I'm thinking of is a Latin favorite..
Xavim 01-24-04, 06:14 AM	Paper is extremely rare in D&D since in the PHB it costs 1gp PER sheet. Only temples, wizard guijds, rich merchants, and adventurers can afford this stuff. ever wonder why a spellbook costs 100gp which is more than your common labourer will ever see in his lifetime?
Spongly 01-24-04, 06:58 AM	Originally posted by VirgilCaine This is the kind of thing I want to sort out for my homebrew world. Lots of diseases killing people? Not with paladins, cure diesease, Craft Wand, and crusading churches like those of Pelor. (Of course, this excludes the effects of disease-spreading churches, but still...). How about a "birth charm" giving +6 bonus on disease saves that can only be cast on a newborn child born within the last ten days, and lasts for ten years? That should cut down on infant mortality. Food shortages from too many people? Plant Growth would help somewhat, but it only increases the yield by one third. Surely some wizard or cleric would be able come up with a spell that was low enough level to allow popular casting, but effective enough to be efficient and useful. Yeah. I always thought that about standard D&D worlds, which seem to have lots of inconsistencies to me - they're basically still feudal, medieval worlds for the most part, but with incredible magic. Why assassinate the king when he's almost certain to have a high priest who can resurrect him post haste? Why are kings in charge when wizards can live for ages and command the powers of the elements? And so on. And when you really get into the "common magic" world, magic just replaces technology, and you get, basically, the modern world with funny look SFX. And I want to play in a fantasy world, not in the normal, everyday world with some pointy ears attached.
Nytmare 01-24-04, 10:54 AM	Originally posted by Xavim Paper is extremely rare in D&D since in the PHB it costs 1gp PER sheet. Only temples, wizard guijds, rich merchants, and adventurers can afford this stuff. ever wonder why a spellbook costs 100gp which is more than your common labourer will ever see in his lifetime? Paper costs 4 silver pieces a sheet. A little pricey maybe but nothing notes it as being rare. An empty basket costs the same, is it rare too? The 100 gold piece per page price of a spellbook includes special magic-ey quills, inks, and components. I can find nothing listing the individual price of an empty spellbook, but even so I'd expect to have to pay more for a sturdy, heavily bound book with a big ol' honkin' lock on it than I would pay for a stack of paper.
Henchcritter 01-24-04, 11:48 AM	Originally posted by Nytmare Since when is paper rare? Ask your grandparents how they were taught to write. Slate pen and slate. Paper was just too expensive to waste.
Plunderer_of_the_planes 01-24-04, 11:49 AM	Here where I live alot of the old timers used corn husks to roll their ciggies. Since the needed the paper for....errr, something else ;) . IMC, I use pipeweed as another name for Tobacco, especially since I find the whole Mazteca part of FR pretty damned stupid anyway. And yes they do have cigars and ciggaretts they cost 2sp fo a pack of 10 and tindertwigs. BTW there are no Health drawbacks eithers since there are not ten million preservatives in them like today. Oh and the other night we had a session where one players magistrate uncle wanted to impose a smoking ban...needless to say he was found in five or six places....I guess it was our little revenge on the attack of smokers rights lately.... ;)
Nytmare 01-24-04, 11:53 AM	Originally posted by Henchcritter Ask your grandparents how they were taught to write. Slate pen and slate. Paper was just too expensive to waste. Reread everything I said between "Since when is paper rare?" and your post.
Edymnion 01-24-04, 11:55 AM	Originally posted by Xavim Paper is extremely rare in D&D since in the PHB it costs 1gp PER sheet. No, in the 3.0 and 3.5 PHB (pages 108 and 128, respectivly), it clearly lists paper as being 4 silver pieces per sheet, while parchment is 2 silver pieces. The only place I know that lists paper as 1gp per sheet is the GLARING error in eTools.
Henchcritter 01-24-04, 12:09 PM	Originally posted by Nytmare Reread everything I said between "Since when is paper rare?" and your post. I did, like you said, paper costs 4SP/sheet. That means it's only for the elite, common people can't efford to work 4 days for a piece of paper.
Nytmare 01-24-04, 12:25 PM	Originally posted by Henchcritter I did, like you said, paper costs 4SP/sheet. That means it's only for the elite, common people can't efford to work 4 days for a piece of paper. Yes, I fully agree. A peasant, who wouldn't know what to use a piece of paper for anyway, would not want to spend 4 silver pieces for one. How does this make it rare? Originally posted by Xavim ever wonder why a spellbook costs 100gp which is more than your common labourer will ever see in his lifetime? Just found it. A brand new, no frills, blank wizard's spellbook is 15 gold pieces. Page 128 Tools and Skill Kits.
Bluebrush 01-24-04, 01:14 PM	The relative commoness/scarcity of paper depends upon supply and demand. Supply: Paper would be more expensive to produce and sell than it is today, since they don't have paper mills or transport networks to carry the paper everywhere. Also, what people make paper from would be important. It might be more time consuming to make it compared to other materials. Demand: In medieval times, common people didn't need paper. You could keep track of everything you needed to know in your head. There were less (if any) forms to fill out, and literacy was uncommon anyway. Truly, these were simpler times. If smelly and plague ridden times. Once demand for paper rises (Ye king dictates there needs to be more paperwork, books become more popular, the daily folding of paper darts is commanded by the main religion), supply will rise since people will want to make money from it. There will be a greater incentive to make better and cheaper paper, and in the end, paper will become cheaper to the common man. Though I'd have thought you'd need special paper for home-rolled cigarettes. But I wouldn't know about that.
Ssussunriyh 01-24-04, 02:11 PM	I once read a sci-fi/fantasy novel about a 20th-century engineer who got transported back to 13th-century Europe. The modern artifact that most impressed the local Duke was a roll of toilet paper. "People who can afford to use parchment as arsewipes must be richer than anyone in this century!"
Plunderer_of_the_planes 01-24-04, 02:43 PM	I can understand the Medieval references but you forget one thing. In a Fantasy world the supplies and demands would be higher. Given that: 1. the amount of Wizards in a FW would increase demands for paper. 2. the amount of Churches of many deities not just one (as in medieval europe) would increase paper demands for record keeping. 3. Bardic colleges, sages and Loremaster would increase this demand as record keeping in most FW's is better and more accurate than the real world. 4. take into account that by default most classes and societies in D&D (save Barbarians) are literate and a higher book trade would result in this. Just off those four points the paper demand would be higher than it was several hundred years ago in the real world. Also there need not be just paper to roll Ciggies. You could use leaves as meantioned earlier or, like I posted before, Corn husks or other material. ( on a side note an older relative of mine talked me into trying a corn husk cig. Take my advice, if anyone offers you one, even just to try, run away...fast) I see where in world like FR or the upcoming Ebberron where it is feasable to have such an invention. However playing in a Low magic or lower tech world I don't think they would be.
Mutant for Hire 01-24-04, 03:54 PM	It's not that simple on the whole literacy issue. Again, look at the pre-paper middle ages. There you had literacy predominating in certain sectors. There were nobles (whose literacy wasn't the greatest but could make do), the clergy (and again, at the parish level it wasn't always the greatest), and you had philosophers and other scholars. In general, in a D&D world, wizards become part of the scholar/philosopher group, but they're still a fraction of the population. Village warlocks and witches might be literate, or they might just teach everything by rote to their apprentices. Bards had incredible mnemonic techniques invented for memorizing vast amounts of lore because they couldn't write it down. The vast majority of people are farmers and craftsmen, and while literacy could help the latter with keeping books, in general they could make do without it. Adventurers are in that tiny core of the population that doesn't need it. Clerics and Wizards can be required to be literate, and Bards can certainly justify having learned it, but other classes more or less could be in trouble. A fighter of noble birth certainly, but a baseborn man who knows how to use a sword, where did they learn? Why would they learn?
Bluebrush 01-24-04, 06:05 PM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh "People who can afford to use parchment as arsewipes must be richer than anyone in this century!" That's pretty much true. A day's wages today would buy you a heck of a lot of toilet paper. In ye olde days the wages for the same amount of work wouldn't buy you much toilet parchment. Even if we ignore the fact that modern toilet paper is probably better at it's job than whatever they used back then we're still getting a lot more for a day's work than we used to.
Plunderer_of_the_planes 01-24-04, 06:44 PM	Originally posted by Mutant for Hire It's not that simple on the whole literacy issue. Again, look at the pre-paper middle ages. There you had literacy predominating in certain sectors. There were nobles (whose literacy wasn't the greatest but could make do), the clergy (and again, at the parish level it wasn't always the greatest), and you had philosophers and other scholars. In general, in a D&D world, wizards become part of the scholar/philosopher group, but they're still a fraction of the population. Village warlocks and witches might be literate, or they might just teach everything by rote to their apprentices. Bards had incredible mnemonic techniques invented for memorizing vast amounts of lore because they couldn't write it down. The vast majority of people are farmers and craftsmen, and while literacy could help the latter with keeping books, in general they could make do without it. Adventurers are in that tiny core of the population that doesn't need it. Clerics and Wizards can be required to be literate, and Bards can certainly justify having learned it, but other classes more or less could be in trouble. A fighter of noble birth certainly, but a baseborn man who knows how to use a sword, where did they learn? Why would they learn? But, take this comparasion 13th century Europe to Faerun. Faerun would be ten to fifteen times more advanced than the 13th century. Plus in the FRCS it shows time and time again where the general population is as literate as the nobility. And no not all wizards in Faerun are part of the scholorly aspect. Now, given as well Faerun has a massive amount more faiths than what 13th century Europe had and most of them have established churches that use alot of paper and require a good literacy level you cannot compare that to 13th century Europe either. In fact comparing anypublished setting world to 13th century Europe is a fallacy. Even in fantasy liturature the culture is more literate and advanced than what we were in the medieval era. Yes, D&D may be based in a pseudo-medieval world but it is not ours nor ever will be. But since you want to compare the real world to D&D's fantasy version let's see how a RL wizard would do against a D&D one..... :D ( <-----this was a joke )
Demon Lightfoot 01-25-04, 03:07 AM	This is my favorite Invention of The Cigarette story -- Egyptian Artilleryman (http://www.tobacco.org/History/Tobacco_History.html) tale: 1832: TURKEY: Invention of the paper-rolled cigarette? While Southwest Indians, Aztecs and Mayans had used hollow reeds, cane or maize to fashion cylindrical tobacco-holders, and Sevillians had rolled cigar-scraps in thrown-away paper (papeletes), an Egyptian artilleryman is credited with the invention of the cigarette as we know it. In the siege of Acre, the Egyptian's cannon crew had improved their rate of fire by rolling the gunpowder in paper tubes. For this, he and his crew were rewarded with a pound of tobacco. Their sole pipe was broken, however, so they took to rolling the pipe tobacco in the paper. The invention spread among both Egyptian and Turkish soldiers. And thus . . . ([i]Good-Bye to All That, 1970) There are variants on this, but it's close enough.