Post/Author/DateTime	Post
z00s 10-21-04, 03:41 PM	I've heard the term power-gamer/munchkin a lot. I have a good idea as to what it is, but it seems that not everyone is on the same page (or maybe it's just me). It seems as though to many people "optimized character" is synonymous to munchkin. If this is the case I don't agree with the stigma attached to optimized characters. I don't see what the issue is if a player who has a Fighter character wants to spend his Ability point bonuses at level 4, 8, etc. on Strength instead of Wisdom. What's the problem if he wants to get his hands on the best armor he can afford or takes advantage of this or that feat because it really accentuates his strong points? I could never enjoy playing a weak and pathetic character, but maybe that's just me. - Z
Sulaco 10-21-04, 04:08 PM	I've heard the term power-gamer/munchkin a lot. I have a good idea as to what it is, but it seems that not everyone is on the same page (or maybe it's just me). Where Min/maxers use the rules to create the "best" PC possible Munchkins abuse the rules to create the "best" PC possible. These people care only for being the "best" (or "leetest" or "kewlest" or whatever stupid term they think makes them seem like slightly less of a turd) and they think that they can somehow "win" the game. The name comes from early cons where these little annoying gits would swarm older gamers and try to impress them with their ultra-kewl characters. They were small and annoying, just like the munchkins from The Wizard of Oz, thus the name.
MakesMeSick 10-21-04, 04:10 PM	Dictionary of terminology (sticky thread at the top) http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=46916 Lots of definitions there.
Aramil_silverwind 10-21-04, 04:24 PM	Ok, the difference between an optimizer and a munchkin or a powergamer is this: Char Optimizers want whats best for thier characters. Like you said, Fighters put the stat points in STR, take measures to find the best weapons, and takes the best feats for his combat style.They are people that represent smart adventurers making the best choices available to them, and people I like to have in my games. Munchkins are players who will plan thier characters out from 1st level, some even going as far as to whip out a calculator and finding out the ABSOLUTE best combination that exists within their book sets. They metagame about things, and don't tend to care too much about RP (though I have met some that do) as much as they care about making thier character as perfect as possible. They take advantage of the rules in ways that where never meant to be taken. EXAMPLE: A fighter takes the Halberd as his specialized weapon. Picks up the Spinning Halberd style from CW, gets Wpn Focus, Specialization, Power Attack, and all the good damage dealing feats. At 7th level, he Prestiges into Kensai from CW. From there he proceeds to customize his weapon (with the Kensai ability) to his fighting style (Viscious if he wants more damage, defending if he wants AC..). For the last 4 levels in his progression (assuming the game lasts that long) he would probably go into fighter a bit more to pick up another feat tree. And in the end he gets a really whoop-*** fighter that deals plenty of damage. - This is MY oppinion of a Character Optimizer SECOND EXAMPLE: Human Character takes 2 levels in fighter to get bonus feats, then forgets about the class. Then he takes one level in Sorceror so he can get true strike, one again forgetting about the class afterwards.the rest in Barabarian, to get rage and such. Picks up the Spiked chain as his favored Weapon, gets improved trip, enchants his wpn with Speed, takes weapon master from Sword and Fist (because its better than Kensai) and goes from there. - This is MY oppinion of a Munchkin The difference? The first fighter is probably on par with the rest of the party. Because of his Kensai PrCing, hes maybe even managed to stay on par with the party spellcaster in terms of kills. The second one could probably take out a monster around 3 or 4 CRs above him, alone. He's worked the game down to a math - he realized that fighter level 3 does not get him as much as Barbarian level 1. He also realizes that compared to Fighter leve 3, the whole barbarian class is better. So he quits. And every fighter likes a +20 to hit a couple of times per day, so he might as well pick up the sorceror level. Maybe Wizard (I can't remember who gets more Spells per day at first level). In the end, if played right, he could use Improved trip to take out a high-level NPC far before the DM intended him to. Now I've dealt with both sides of this, and Munchkins are bad for the whole game. The monsters get mowed down by them, and theplayer complains of no challenge. So you give them bigger baddies. And they kill the party without breaking a sweat. But the fighter is alive and ruining s***. While this may be fun for the Fighter, the rest of the party hates it, which is where the problem lies. However, if the party is full of munchkins, then its balanced and theres nothing to complain about. But most people I know find Munching out fairly immature and dumb, so don't do it. This is my oppinion though, and I could be wrong. For more info on the Character Optimizers vs. Munchkin arguments, look up the thread called "Min/Maxxing vs. Powergaming" it has more arguments on this topic.
Sensei Gith 10-21-04, 04:56 PM	A min/maxer is someone who is especially skilled at creating powerful characters. Everyone min/maxes to some degree, and min/maxing can be used to balance normally inferior character types or over-the-top adventures. A powergamer is someone who tries to make the most powerful character possible for the sake of having the most powerful character possible. A munchkin is someone you don't like (e.g. "Giving characters magic items is munchkin!" "You're wrong because that's munchy!").
z00s 10-21-04, 05:07 PM	All right, let me throw myself out onto the table then. I have a Half-Celestial Paladin. He's currently level 5 with a savage progression LA of +3 (total of an 8th level character). I stumbled across the feat Divine Might and thought "Holy crap, this works great with my super high Cha". It has been brought up that my character overshadows other characters who aren't optimized. I never intended to overshadow others I simply saw some cool feats and picked those up. So now because I am afraid of getting labeled as a power gamer I defend my stance by making a straight 8th level human conversion of the same character and testing this human version out against a couple of monsters then did the same for my half-celestial. As it turns out the half-celestial and the human are very even against creatures without DR/Magic. With DR/Magic the 8th level human is more powerful because my half-celestial doesn't have his DR protecting him. In any event to some degree it is true that my character does overshadow other characters if the other characters aren't optimized. Is this power gaming? - Z
Zherog 10-21-04, 06:01 PM	Aramil, I completely disagree with your definition of Munchkin. What you've described is a good example of min/max - not taking level 3 of fighter because it's empty, etc. Plain and simple - a munchkin cheats. They do things like ignore LA's of templates, they ignore Arcane Spell Failure and have their wizard walking around in full plate, they ignore stacking rules and have their cleric wearing a Periapt of Wisdom +6 (at 1st level) and casting Owl's Wisdom on himself - you get the idea.
Aramil_silverwind 10-21-04, 06:13 PM	IMO thats not a munchkin... thats a cheater. A munchkin is someone who abuses the rules, not someone who breaks them. A cheater is a cheater. Theres no other name.
The Grinning Pint 10-21-04, 06:24 PM	Munchkin = Donut holes AKA balls of fatty goodness Munchkin = Strangely happy wizard of Oz people with annoying voices. Munchkin = Abuser of DnD rules to the point of annoyance. Munchkin = all of the above.
wdarkk 10-21-04, 07:18 PM	Wiz5/Incantatrix10/Archmage5 is min/max. Tauric Sun Elf/Brown Bear Hulking Hurler Warhulks are munchkin. It's kind of like the difference between art and pornography. You know it when you see it.
NateNate 10-21-04, 08:59 PM	Everyone has their own definition of "Munchkin". Some believe that someone who takes more than one PrC and/or more than two base classes is a Munchkin. Personally, I agree that the Tauric Sun Elf/ Brown Bear War Hulk/ Hulking Hurler is a munchkin character. I read the thread, and a lot of the stuff they've done would never fly in any campaign, ever. Sure, they have valid rules arguments to support the character, but no DM in his right mind would let them get away with even a fraction of that stuff. That is what a Munchkin is: someone who makes a character knowing that what they're using won't be allowed if reviewed, so they try to sneak it past the DM. Then they try to show off how much they r0xx0rs!!!!11 A Munchkin is someone whose desire to be "better" than everyone else disrupts the game. A Munchkin will use templates which aren't meant to be used together (i.e. Half-Celestial plus Half-Fiend), find ways to bend or get around the rules they don't like, and use game effects in ways that they weren't meant to be used, such as stacking bonuses. Example: Table 7-33, DMG 285 gives suggestions for pricing of magic items. A character could use those "rules" to buy a command-word activated item which casts Wish five times per year for 4180gp. However, the information on that table is not a set of rules for pricing magic items, its a set of guidelines for a DM to use when determining how much an item a player wants should cost. No DM should allow an item priced with that table into their game without careful review and comparison with existing items. Another Example: Divine Metamagic, Instant Metamagic, and Rods of Metamagic used to create magic item effects. One of my players tried to do this, and I told him that regardless of what level spell slot he used to cast the spell, the spell itself is just as strong as if the metamagic feat was applied normally, and the price of his potion/wand/scroll/rune/whatever would be based on that. He got all pissy and got his character killed and made another one. A few weeks after he lost interest and quit the campaign. I had told him when he took the feat that creating items with Divine Metamagic wouldn't save him any money over applying the metamagic normally, but he tried to sneak it past me anyway. He was already going to have more/better magical gear than the rest of the party because of his item creation feats, but he wanted to be even better. Munchkin. All of my characters are optimized, and I plan what class levels and feats I'm going to take at each level. I won't use anything that I can't come up with a good background story for, and I won't do anything the DM tells me I can't do. Right now I'm working on a Dwarf Barbarian 2/ Hexblade 3/ Fighter 1/ Occult Slayer 5/ Exotic Weapon Master 1/ Frenzied Berserker 8+ who should be able to take down the CR 24 Colossus solo (plus cohort) at level 22. I've taken levels in three base classes and three PrCs, but only one of those PrCs could possibly have an orginization or order I'd have to join to gain level in it (Occult Slayer). The other two (EWM and FB) are more or less self-taught. Having levels in Hexblade gives him the expertise to go into Occult Slayer, but he bails on it early enough to not gain spells, just protections versus spells. The Fighter level is necessary to have enough feats to qualify for all the PrCs, and there are two levels in Barbarian for the Rage requirement and to avoid an XP penalty. I didn't take more levels in anything than I thought was necessary. If a Sorcerer just wants to be able to cast True Strike, and isn't interested in any other spells besides that one, it totally makes sense for him to have only one level in the class, especially if his Charisma is only 11. It would be better to have two levels for the +1 BAB and additional spells known/ per day, but why gain second level spells when you can't even cast them (or don't want/need to cast them)? In 3.0 there was a lot of front-loading of classes (Ranger and Paladin especially), but they've made adjustments to discourage that since. I see no reason not to front-load in 3.5, because the worst you can do is Fighter 2/ Psychic Warrior 2 for four feats. Any other front-loading is situational at best, such as loading up Monk for the unarmed strikes, AC, and bonus feats. I'm making a Druid for another game I'm in, starting at level 5 since my other character died, and I'm not even willing to give up one level for the obvious benefits Monk would give me. I want that Wild Shape (Large) asap, then its straight into War Shaper 4 followed by Nature's Warrior 2 and then more Druid. Anything else cuts me out of 8th level spells, and I don't need the Monk abilities when I can grow 2 claws, 2 slams, a bite, a gore, a sting, a tail attack, and as many tentacles as the DM will allow. I'll argue in favor of 10 tentacles, since thats how many a Squid has, which I *can* Wild Shape into by then. I won't do anything the DM says no to, and its not to be "better" than the other PCs. I'm going to make the strongest character I can, because we're in Ravenloft, and five players have lost four characters in three sessions. If I make something weak it will just die right away, and I'll be back where I started.
robertliguori 10-22-04, 01:03 AM	My personal acid test: if it makes sense, it's min/maxing. If it doesn't, its munchkining. A paladin with high CHA and divine might: good catch. A paladin infecting themself with Faceless Hate and casting restoration on himself daily to offset the ability damage while gaining arbitrarily high strength: munchkin. Playing a Anthropic animal from Savage Species: min/max. (Provided it's not a whale.) Applying the anthropomorphic template to monsters from, say, the Call of Cthuhlu book: munchkin.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-22-04, 01:04 AM	I generally translate munchkin as "This guy plays different from how I play, so I'm going to make fun of him by slinging a vaguely defined insult at him." When I see the word Munchkin, I think it insults the user more than the target.
wdarkk 10-22-04, 01:08 AM	My personal acid test: if it makes sense, it's min/maxing. If it doesn't, its munchkining. A paladin with high CHA and divine might: good catch. A paladin infecting themself with Faceless Hate and casting restoration on himself daily to offset the ability damage while gaining arbitrarily high strength: munchkin. Playing a Anthropic animal from Savage Species: min/max. (Provided it's not a whale.) Applying the anthropomorphic template to monsters from, say, the Call of Cthuhlu book: munchkin. That seems a good description. Arioch - what is your opinion of people who use munchkin as a "warning flag" on their ideas, for example: "Sure, you can use my infinite Simulacrum trick to get as many ritual participants as it takes to drive the DC to zero, but I gotta warn you that's totally munchkin."
Someone 10-22-04, 01:29 AM	As others have given theirs, I figure I'll give some of my personal definitions: optimizer: one who creates a character to be good at a particular activity, whether being a damage sponge or negotiation. min/ maxxer: the step past optimizer. attempts to be overwhelmingly good at a particular activity (maxxing) while simultaneously attempting to reduce the normal penalties or weaknesses inherent with focusing on that activity (minimizing). Alternatively, one who puts the balance of their resources (the maximum) into the few things they view as useful (stats, equipment, so on) while putting a minimum into the rest (the dreaded "dump stat", or neglecting to take a balanced selection of skills). power gamer: generally, one who is slightly optimized in everything. Also refers to a style of play where all the numbers are higher: higher attack bonuses to overcome higher ACs, higher damage to overcome higher hps, higher save bonuses to overcome higher DCs, more/ better treasure, etc. Not nesessarily a bad thing, if that's the style you and your players like. munchkin: one who tries to be good at everything, or one who optimizes through the excessive application of small bonuses from many different sources. In their efforts, they usually hunt around for obscure references, "data mining" as many sources as they can in order to find yet another thing they could have apply to them. Usually beleive/ try to have their one "super capability" will carry them through every situation, even if inappropriate (diplomacy munchkins fast-talking their way out of a fight with a balor, even though the fight has already started).
The_Dark_One 10-22-04, 01:53 AM	I think that a munchkin is a powergamer who has the rare ability to bring a "Please shoot me" expression to the DM's face. :mymy:
Wil_Hyral 10-22-04, 01:56 AM	The name comes from early cons where these little annoying gits would swarm older gamers and try to impress them with their ultra-kewl characters. They were small and annoying, just like the munchkins from The Wizard of Oz, thus the name. The ones in the movie had a guild. That made them a little more offensive, if you ask me. Sorta like those workers who strike simply for the sake of striking. God help us if there comes up another guild.
The_Dark_One 10-22-04, 02:07 AM	The ones in the movie had a guild. That made them a little more offensive, if you ask me. What does the Lollipop Guild do? Would we notice if they stopped doing it as some sort of protest?
Blackrazorblade 10-23-04, 11:48 PM	i think munchkin also depends on the group you are in. in my group i have the most sourcebooks and am the most into DnD, so ergomy characters are usually the "best". also i have incredible luck with rolling up characters and dice in general
Count Arioch the 28th 10-24-04, 03:11 AM	Arioch - what is your opinion of people who use munchkin as a "warning flag" on their ideas, for example: "Sure, you can use my infinite Simulacrum trick to get as many ritual participants as it takes to drive the DC to zero, but I gotta warn you that's totally munchkin." My opinion is you need to stop making up far fetched stories to try to find "exceptions" to things I say, it never stops irritating me. Edit: Not singling out you personally, there's a lot of people who's entire goal in life is playing "gotcha" on these boards, and it's wearing a bit smooth as far as I'm concerned.
Darkstealth 10-24-04, 08:58 AM	Here's an example of a Munchkin from what I've heard. DM: You see a wolf in the forest. PC: It's a full moon? DM: Yes. PC: I walk forward, arms outstretched and stand there. DM: Umm... the wolf bites you. You begin to morph into a werewolf... PC: Yes! +? LA is comin' up! Then again, could be and probably are wrong.
wdarkk 10-24-04, 05:02 PM	My opinion is you need to stop making up far fetched stories to try to find "exceptions" to things I say, it never stops irritating me. Edit: Not singling out you personally, there's a lot of people who's entire goal in life is playing "gotcha" on these boards, and it's wearing a bit smooth as far as I'm concerned. Actually, I use "munchkin" in that way all the time.
Doug McCrae 10-24-04, 08:59 PM	Right now I'm working on a Dwarf Barbarian 2/ Hexblade 3/ Fighter 1/ Occult Slayer 5/ Exotic Weapon Master 1/ Frenzied Berserker 8+ who should be able to take down the CR 24 Colossus solo (plus cohort) at level 22.You are such a munchkin.
Doug McCrae 10-24-04, 09:04 PM	As usual, Monte Cook has some excellent insights (http://www.montecook.com/arch_anrant3.html) on the definition of the term.
z00s 10-24-04, 09:19 PM	Monte Cook a great stance on the topic with one exception. It's a little disconcerting when you play with a player who enjoys being better than everyone else at everything. A number of campaigns ago I had to deal with this and I wanted to freak out regularly. Sure it's great if someone like this enjoys being better than everyone else, but it should never come at the expense of enjoyment of everyone else. - Z
Thanqol 10-24-04, 10:24 PM	DM: Ok, you're facing a vampire. Munchkin: I've come up with a great plan! I call it Plan Awesome! Player: Do you plan to 'accidently' fall and puncture your neck on the vampire's fangs, thus giving yourself all kinds of stat bonuses? Munchkin: I've changed it to "Plan Awesome-B" for reasons unrelated to what you just said.
Ratheus 10-26-04, 10:24 PM	He he, Darkstealth just beaned one of my players upside the head with that one. "A werewolf? I'm taking off my armor so I can grapple better!"
zodiki 10-27-04, 01:56 AM	There are many types of players and DMs who drain the joy out of the game. It doesn't really matter why or what they might be called. I'd try to avoid them all.
Temmogen 10-27-04, 03:14 PM	It's kind of like the difference between art and pornography. You know it when you see it. This is the explanatrion that makles the most sense. The definition is different for everyone. In some games I'm considered a "munchkin" in others I'm considered a "mechanic min maxer"
Palin the Wizard 10-27-04, 03:47 PM	A Munchkin is someone whose desire to be "better" than everyone else disrupts the game. That is the best definition of a munchkin I've heard in a long time. It applies to a very broad range of people, which is what the word has become. DM: Ok, you're facing a vampire. Munchkin: I've come up with a great plan! I call it Plan Awesome! Player: Do you plan to 'accidently' fall and puncture your neck on the vampire's fangs, thus giving yourself all kinds of stat bonuses? Munchkin: I've changed it to "Plan Awesome-B" for reasons unrelated to what you just said. 8-bit theater, eh? ;)
Funkmeisterchen 10-31-04, 11:59 PM	So much lingo....aaahhh... i'm still lost-maybe i can give examples- and we can see 1)-me- i'm a barbarian right now that plans to take a few levels of fighter to optimize feats- then go Frenzied Berserker 2) My friend- one level of rogue- then a few scattered a fighter to nab feats- one as wizard for mage armor and shield- then Invisible Blade- then master Thrower- the rogue again 3) Our RETARDED "DM" (at a time) that went from a lvl 7 rogue- to a lvl 2 assassin- to a PALADIN (btw- she stated that she wouldn't let us go neutral neutral or any sort of evil (but she let me be a CN rogue?)) maybe i can get an illustration what me- my friend- and then our "dm" are in the gamer world
Mordmorgan the Mad 11-01-04, 12:28 AM	MUNCHKIN: Chaotic Evil Human Fighter Equipment +10 Keen Masterwork Dragonbane Bastard Sword of Flaming Burst +10 Keen Masterwork Bastard Sword of Speed Demon Armor (+4 Full Plate, claws attached to gauntlets, 1d10 and cast contagion on target upon successful hit) Absorbing Shield (+1 Heavy Steel Shield, allows the user to cast Disintegrate every 2 days as a melee touch) Ring of Protection +5 (+5 AC bonus to deflect) Belt of Giant Strength +6 (+6 Strength bonus) All of these are, of course, family heirlooms. :devil: Feats Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) Two-Weapon Fighting Ambidexterity Ability Scores Strength 24 :ayyyy!: Dexterity 16 Constitution 16 Intelligence 17 Wisdom 15 Charisma 14
Oberoni 11-01-04, 12:33 AM	In an ideal use of the term, "munchkin" would be used to denote either an obvious cheater, or someone that does crap that is just game-shattering (such as the Hulking Hurler cheese). In the actual world, people use the term to refer to others who play differently than they do. I can understand the first definition, but since the second one is used so frequently, I tend to label just about everyone who uses the term against another poster as a "smacktard."