Class Skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Class Skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
babysamurai
08-25-06, 08:02 AM I still think that Skills are a little clunky. Not the way they are used, but the way they are chosen/allocated.

Why do all Fighters have to have Climb as a Class Skill?

What if you’re the Fighter-Sentinel type, than you should have Listen and Spot as class Skills.

The only Skill I might restrict is Use Magic Device. Only Bards and Rogues can take it as a class Skill, for all others it’s cross-class.

So:

Skills:
All character classes start with the same number of class Skills they usually have, but they get to choose which Skills those are, and still have the same number of Skill points per level.

What do you think?
Seldriss
08-25-06, 08:16 AM As a player, you can always ask your DM if you can swap a few skills.

As a Dungeon Master, you are free to change the skills selection for each class.
Some DMs give a minimum of 4 class skills points (instead of the cheap 2), which makes clerics, fighters, mages and sorcerers happy.
Some allow some variants in class skills. Ex: Savage (Knowledge/Nature and Survival instead of 2 "civilized" skills, or your sentinel fighter example)
Some other don't even use the class/cross-class skills, giving to players full freedom to pick their class skills, and to develop them to the max (level+3, 1 pt/1 rank).

As a reminder, it is possible to "buy" a class skill with a feat.

Personally, I give to my players some "Skills of Choice" at creation, equal to their Intelligence modifier. These skills become class skills for whatever class the character will develop.
OravennasBrother
08-25-06, 09:38 AM Personally, I give to my players some "Skills of Choice" at creation, equal to their Intelligence modifier. These skills become class skills for whatever class the character will develop.
You do realize that heavilly favors wizards who can now negate the Rogue advantage of Hide/Silent Move as Class and many others have Spot and Listen as Cross Class.

One thing I regularly notice is that PrC's tend to have the skills Spot, Listen, and Search as Class Skills. Care to speculate why?

Right because they are strong "defense" skills against suffering a Sneak attack/ambush situation.
Rahlious
08-25-06, 09:54 AM The only issue is... balance.

The way the classes are balanced in the RAW was done very carefully.

If you want to swap out skills and adjust the features of a class, then the DM has to agree to it and I *hope* that the DM will be smart about it.
slashrat
08-25-06, 11:33 AM Rather than messing with class balance directly, here's a suggestion that might also do away with the uselessness of most of the "+2 to two different skills"-feats. Simply make a second level of each of those feats that makes the same two skills class skills.

Say your character has Alertness (+2 to Listen and Spot), qualifying him for Alertness II which makes listen and spot permanent class skills.
Grand Theft Otto
08-25-06, 05:19 PM I've let people pick skills that fit their character or what they've been training in since 3rd edition was released... hasnt been a problem yet. Plus it lets anyone who wants to snag a social skill or two participate in non-combat encounters.

Also, we merged Climb, Swim and Jump into Athletics, Balance and Tumble into Acrobatics, and Search, Listen and Spot into Notice. Your Spot and Listen are equal to 1/2 your ranks in notice if you are using them unattended, otherwise you'd use notice. IE, if you're walking down a hall talking, you'd get a Listen check to overhear something. If you are actively focusing your attention (spend a partial action), you get a Notice check at full score. If you have the Alertness feat, you are always considered to be focusing your attention.
Mitchell
08-26-06, 02:31 AM I just forsee spot becoming a class skill for everyone.
It would also allow more ease for certain classes to enter certain PrCs that they were not meant to enter easily... A wizard/loremaster is easy, but a sorcerer/loremaster isn't. Or at least wasn't, until they were allowed to take a second knowledge as a class skill.
I wouldn't see a real problem if they had to follow a feat chain, as suggested above, or even to take a single (non-fighter) feat, but just to do it because "Profession is stupid, I want X" is a little too easy for me.
Kazeofwinds
08-26-06, 02:38 AM Someone else sugguested making all skills cost one point, but leaving the caps the same.

I've implemented this and It hasn't affected much, other than now some people actually take crossclass skills.

Plus, It doesn't throw off the levels class X can qualify for PRC y, for those of you that are picky about it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
babysamurai 08-25-06, 08:02 AM	I still think that Skills are a little clunky. Not the way they are used, but the way they are chosen/allocated. Why do all Fighters have to have Climb as a Class Skill? What if you’re the Fighter-Sentinel type, than you should have Listen and Spot as class Skills. The only Skill I might restrict is Use Magic Device. Only Bards and Rogues can take it as a class Skill, for all others it’s cross-class. So: Skills: All character classes start with the same number of class Skills they usually have, but they get to choose which Skills those are, and still have the same number of Skill points per level. What do you think?
Seldriss 08-25-06, 08:16 AM	As a player, you can always ask your DM if you can swap a few skills. As a Dungeon Master, you are free to change the skills selection for each class. Some DMs give a minimum of 4 class skills points (instead of the cheap 2), which makes clerics, fighters, mages and sorcerers happy. Some allow some variants in class skills. Ex: Savage (Knowledge/Nature and Survival instead of 2 "civilized" skills, or your sentinel fighter example) Some other don't even use the class/cross-class skills, giving to players full freedom to pick their class skills, and to develop them to the max (level+3, 1 pt/1 rank). As a reminder, it is possible to "buy" a class skill with a feat. Personally, I give to my players some "Skills of Choice" at creation, equal to their Intelligence modifier. These skills become class skills for whatever class the character will develop.
OravennasBrother 08-25-06, 09:38 AM	Personally, I give to my players some "Skills of Choice" at creation, equal to their Intelligence modifier. These skills become class skills for whatever class the character will develop. You do realize that heavilly favors wizards who can now negate the Rogue advantage of Hide/Silent Move as Class and many others have Spot and Listen as Cross Class. One thing I regularly notice is that PrC's tend to have the skills Spot, Listen, and Search as Class Skills. Care to speculate why? Right because they are strong "defense" skills against suffering a Sneak attack/ambush situation.
Rahlious 08-25-06, 09:54 AM	The only issue is... balance. The way the classes are balanced in the RAW was done very carefully. If you want to swap out skills and adjust the features of a class, then the DM has to agree to it and I hope that the DM will be smart about it.
slashrat 08-25-06, 11:33 AM	Rather than messing with class balance directly, here's a suggestion that might also do away with the uselessness of most of the "+2 to two different skills"-feats. Simply make a second level of each of those feats that makes the same two skills class skills. Say your character has Alertness (+2 to Listen and Spot), qualifying him for Alertness II which makes listen and spot permanent class skills.
Grand Theft Otto 08-25-06, 05:19 PM	I've let people pick skills that fit their character or what they've been training in since 3rd edition was released... hasnt been a problem yet. Plus it lets anyone who wants to snag a social skill or two participate in non-combat encounters. Also, we merged Climb, Swim and Jump into Athletics, Balance and Tumble into Acrobatics, and Search, Listen and Spot into Notice. Your Spot and Listen are equal to 1/2 your ranks in notice if you are using them unattended, otherwise you'd use notice. IE, if you're walking down a hall talking, you'd get a Listen check to overhear something. If you are actively focusing your attention (spend a partial action), you get a Notice check at full score. If you have the Alertness feat, you are always considered to be focusing your attention.
Mitchell 08-26-06, 02:31 AM	I just forsee spot becoming a class skill for everyone. It would also allow more ease for certain classes to enter certain PrCs that they were not meant to enter easily... A wizard/loremaster is easy, but a sorcerer/loremaster isn't. Or at least wasn't, until they were allowed to take a second knowledge as a class skill. I wouldn't see a real problem if they had to follow a feat chain, as suggested above, or even to take a single (non-fighter) feat, but just to do it because "Profession is stupid, I want X" is a little too easy for me.
Kazeofwinds 08-26-06, 02:38 AM	Someone else sugguested making all skills cost one point, but leaving the caps the same. I've implemented this and It hasn't affected much, other than now some people actually take crossclass skills. Plus, It doesn't throw off the levels class X can qualify for PRC y, for those of you that are picky about it.