Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crystalseas 08-27-07, 12:57 PM	Searched these boards and my DMG and PHB, and can't figure this out: A 1st level, NG cleric in my group has domains of Luck and Healing, with a 15 Wisdom. She therefore has 3 0th level spells. She has 3 [1 + 1 (domain) + 1 (wisdom)] 1st level spells. The luck domain spell she has access to is Entropic Shield; the healing domain spell is Cure Light Wounds. Which of the following are true? 1) She may not cast any spell, ever, that is Evil. (She is NG). 2) She may spontaneously substitute any healing spell she has access to for for any other spell of that level or higher that she has already prayed for but not used that day. ( She could use a 0 level healing spell as a substitute for a 0th or 1st level uncast spell, and she could use a 1st level healing spell as a substitute for any 1st level spell she has not already cast). Here's my main uncertainty: If she has Entropic Shield, unused, in her Domain slot, can she spontaneously substitute her domain Cure Light Wounds in that slot? (I don't think so, but I can't find a definitive sentence). How does the Healing domain granted power (you cast healing spells at a +1 caster level) influence which spells she can cast? If I'm reading correctly, she can only cast a 0th or 1st level spell, but she gets results as if she were a Cl 2. Is this correct: a) She can cast Cure Light Wounds (a Clr 1 spell) and cures 1d8 + *2* (not 1) points of damage. b) She cannot cast Cure Moderate Wounds (a Clr 2 spell) at all. Or, can she actually cast Cure Moderate, using her Healing domain Granted Power?
crystalseas 08-27-07, 01:05 PM	One more clarification: In her domain slot, can she use any 0 or 1st level Luck or Healing spell in that slot, or only the one listed at 1st level for that domain?
Megido 08-27-07, 01:20 PM	She can substitute only Non_Domain spell slots for cure spells (p32 PHB) Her Cure spells are treated as if she were 1 level higher (1d8+2) She can memorize a spell of equal or lower level in a domain spell slot as long as its of one of her Domains (p180 PHB)
EvilIdiot 08-27-07, 01:41 PM	If she has Entropic Shield, unused, in her Domain slot, can she spontaneously substitute her domain Cure Light Wounds in that slot? (I don't think so, but I can't find a definitive sentence). Spontaneous Casting of Cure and Inflict Spells A good cleric (or a cleric of a good deity) can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a domain spell. No, she can't. a) She can cast Cure Light Wounds (a Clr 1 spell) and cures 1d8 + *2* (not 1) points of damage. that's it. She may not cast any spell, ever, that is Evil. (She is NG). This is a highly debated subject, because people can always interpret rules in slightly different ways, I'm on the "she can never,never ,never and never do that." side. <edit>Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions. </edit>
Megido 08-27-07, 02:12 PM	Wayyy too tired. Should know better than to get a double mocha cappucino with 2 caffeine boosters, some powdered ephedrin, and ginko. But they are great when you gotta be up all day, all night, and all next day.
Megido 08-27-07, 02:13 PM	This is a highly debated subject, because people can always interpret rules in slightly different ways, I'm on the "she can never,never ,never and never do that." side. Rules do seem to suggest she could not, but there are no clear and RAW for this after all. Anyway, ask yourself: would you go to a NeoNazi party if you don't agree with their foul ideas? That's a correct analogy to me. Acctually it is RAW that she could NOT. (p33 PHB)
Sarella Starshine 08-27-07, 03:14 PM	The debate is not if they can or not, but if the spells labeled [Evil] deserve it or not. And is mostly central to the necromancy spells (specically the ones pertaining to undead). But, everyone else is correct.
Megido 08-27-07, 03:29 PM	The debate is not if they can or not, but if the spells labeled [Evil] deserve it or not. And is mostly central to the necromancy spells (specically the ones pertaining to undead). But, everyone else is correct. Ahh, believe it or not its never come up in my games.
Eater_Of_Souls 08-27-07, 05:20 PM	also notice that a cleric must abide the alignments of his/her god in both thoughts and actions this in PHB as well, this includes using evil spells, killing helpless enemies and the like. As for domains you get one domain spell per spell level, you choose which spell you memorize for the day but only one spell per (spell) level can be chosen. You may spontaniously cast any cure spell of equal or lower level that you have a spell slot available. Note that in traditional sense you can cast only "single person" heals spontaniously but I'm not sure as I don't have PHB at hand atm. Casting +1 level higher means exactly that you cast those spell as if you would be on level 2 instead of level 1. Any spell slot can be given for a lower level spell then the actual slot.
Nom 08-27-07, 06:34 PM	A 1st level, NG cleric in my group has domains of Luck and Healing, with a 15 Wisdom. She therefore has 3 0th level spells. She has 3 [1 + 1 (domain) + 1 (wisdom)] 1st level spells.Let's rephrase this slightly. From the Cleric spell list, she has 3 0th level spells and 2 (1 + 1 (wis)) 1st level spells. She may spontaneously substitute any of these for a cure spell of that level or lower (cure minor wounds for 0th level spells, cure light or cure minor wounds for 1st level spells). From her domain spell list, she can cast 1 1st level spell. Her domain spell list contains two 1st level spells: entropic shield and cure light wounds (one from each domain). Domain spells cannot be spontaneously cast. Domain spells are not in any way interchangeable with regular cleric spells, although they might appear on both lists. Which of the following are true? 1) She may not cast any spell, ever, that is Evil. (She is NG).False. If her deity is NG, she will be unable to prepare (as a cleric) any Evil spell; they are simply unavailable. Spell availability depends on the deity's alignment, not the cleric's (they can be different by up to 1 step). She may still activate such spells via scrolls or wands, or prepare them via another class if she multiclasses. Doing so will not win favour points with her deity, however. Note: certain campaign settings or house rules may ignore some or all of the above restrictions. 2) She may spontaneously substitute any healing spell she has access to for for any other spell of that level or higher that she has already prayed for but not used that day. ( She could use a 0 level healing spell as a substitute for a 0th or 1st level uncast spell, and she could use a 1st level healing spell as a substitute for any 1st level spell she has not already cast).True, from her cleric list only. Domain spells are not part of the cleric list, are not interchangeable with it, and may not be spontaneously cast. Note that many domain spells also appear on the regular cleric list, occasionally at a different level. If she has Entropic Shield, unused, in her Domain slot, can she spontaneously substitute her domain Cure Light Wounds in that slot? (I don't think so, but I can't find a definitive sentence).No. "any prepared spell that is not a domain spell", PH pg 32. How does the Healing domain granted power (you cast healing spells at a +1 caster level) influence which spells she can cast? If I'm reading correctly, she can only cast a 0th or 1st level spell, but she gets results as if she were a Cl 2.Correct. Is this correct: a) She can cast Cure Light Wounds (a Clr 1 spell) and cures 1d8 + *2* (not 1) points of damage. b) She cannot cast Cure Moderate Wounds (a Clr 2 spell) at all.Correct. The Healing domain ability affects your caster level. It has no effect on spell levels or spell availability (spells per day).
crystalseas 08-27-07, 08:25 PM	Thanks Megido for the fast reply. I was able to do some stuff this afternoon based on your quick response. And thanks to everyone else for answers to questions I didn't even know to ask. I carefully looked at all the Necromancy spells she has available. Two of them (Deathwatch and Curse Water) have [Evil] after Necromancy, and the rest do not. I'm ruling that she can use Necromancy spells that do not have [Evil] explicitly listed.
The White Sorcerer 08-27-07, 08:58 PM	I'm ruling that she can use Necromancy spells that do not have [Evil] explicitly listed. That's how the rules as written work, so there should be no problem with that.
Nom 08-27-07, 10:03 PM	I'm ruling that she can use Necromancy spells that do not have [Evil] explicitly listed.Correct. Necromancy != Evil, unless it has the descriptor. Actually, the only reason for the cure spells to be Conjuration (healing) rather than the much more sensible Necromancy (healing) is that some people automatically assume that "necromancy" = "icky". Of course, the name doesn't help: "necromancy" = "magic of death", when in fact the school is the magic of life and death, not merely death.
crystalseas 08-28-07, 12:53 PM	I see one set of Necromancy skills that look like they should be evil: The "Inflict Wounds" series are not marked Evil, but they do say "you channel negative energy". I can see a contradiction with a good cleric who normally channels positive energy suddenly being able to channel negative energy with no penalty or response from their deity.
The White Sorcerer 08-28-07, 03:34 PM	I see one set of Necromancy skills that look like they should be evil: The "Inflict Wounds" series are not marked Evil, but they do say "you channel negative energy". I can see a contradiction with a good cleric who normally channels positive energy suddenly being able to channel negative energy with no penalty or response from their deity. If good clerics can't inflict, then evil clerics can't cure.
Sarella Starshine 08-28-07, 03:54 PM	You have to remember, a Good cleric cannot spontaniously cast any of the inflict spells, but and Evil or Neutral cleric can. (Neutral clerics can choose either to spontanously cast inflict or cure spells.) So, the Good cleric has to prepare the inflict spell to cast it, so its not a 'they suddenly channel negative energy' but more of 'they go through the rituals/prayers needed to be able to handle negative energy'. While, an Evil cleric has the opposite situation: they have to prepare thier cure spells and not thier inflict spells, so they have to do the same thing the Good cleric does to handle negative energy to be able to handle postive energy. A truely Neutral cleric can handle either with ease (and with the help of a couple of feats in CD (complete divine) they can handle the opposite with just as much ease), but they can choose which one they want to be more adept at handling.
crystalseas 08-28-07, 05:29 PM	I muddied the waters a bit with one question. She has a domain slot every day. Each domain has a section in the PHB that tells about the Granted Power, and gives a list of one spell at each level. She can choose one or the other of those domains every day, and prepare a spell from that domain. Here's my puzzle: Does that slot accommodate any spell from those two domains (that she can cast), or is it just the ones on the two lists? (Healing and Luck, pg 187 PHB)? I'm assuming she can prepare any Luck or Healing spell in that slot, but then what is the purpose of the list?
Nom 08-28-07, 10:00 PM	I muddied the waters a bit with one question. She has a domain slot every day. Each domain has a section in the PHB that tells about the Granted Power, and gives a list of one spell at each level. She can choose one or the other of those domains every day, and prepare a spell from that domain. Here's my puzzle: Does that slot accommodate any spell from those two domains (that she can cast), or is it just the ones on the two lists? (Healing and Luck, pg 187 PHB)?The most accurate way to think of it is that your cleric has two spell lists and two sets of spell slots: the regular ones and the domain ones. These lists are completely separate. Your domain "spell list" contains only two spells at each level, one from each domain. You get one domain slot per day (no Wis bonus or otherwise) for each level of spells you can cast. Thus, at level 1, you have one 1st level domain spell per day, which must be drawn from a spell list that comprises entropic shield and cure light wounds (only), plus the higher level spells. At level 3, you will have one 1st level domain spell per day and one 2nd level domain spell per day, and can prepare aid and cure moderate wounds as 2nd level domain spells in addition to the two 1st level spells. Your 2nd level domain slot can hold either 2nd level domain spell, either first level domain spell, or either 1st level domain spell with a +1 metamagic (eg Extend Spell, if you had that feat). Your 1st level domain slot can hold only one of the two 1st level domain spells.
crystalseas 08-28-07, 10:26 PM	Nom, thanks again for your help. You've been most patient, and clear, with your replies.
Nom 08-29-07, 02:08 AM	Even though many domain spells are the same as cleric spells, it's still important to track them separately: (1) your domain spell/s cannot be substituted for a cure spell. If you happen to have memorised the same spell in your domain slot and in a regular slot (eg entropic shield, which is Clr1 and Luck1), you're generally better to use the domain slot first. If you cast the regular version first, you can't later substitute the domain version for a cure spell. (2) Occasionally, a domain spell will have a different spell level than a regular cleric spell. In this case, the same spell has a different level depending on whether it's prepared as a cleric spell in a cleric slot or as a domain spell in a domain slot. Similarly, if you get a non-cleric spell in a domain list (eg burning hands, from the fire domain), you can't prepare that spell in your regular cleric slots. The domain / regular division doesn't impact you when using scrolls or wands. A spell that's on your domain list is still on (one of) your class list/s, and thus you can trigger a wand with that spell. And both your domain list and your regular list are "divine", so you can use either (or both) to qualify for using a divine scroll. In either case, the "spell level" is whatever is in the wand or scroll, even if it differs from your lists.