Clerification: Simple Weapon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Clerification: Simple Weapon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Levism84
01-20-04, 01:14 AM I was just wondering, what is considered a "simple" weapon when dealing with the VoP? I know it says that the weapon of choice is often a Quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick, but I was just wondering what exactly could and couldnt be considered. There are some weapons that are simple in construction but "exotic" in use (blowgun), and others that are complex in construction and "simple" in use (crossbow).

I mean, I know that it clearly says no Masterwork and/or Magical weapons. I am also thinking any weapon that is made from a rare material, but does that put out ALL metal weapons such as the dagger or kurki?

In the mater of price, the most expensive "simple" weapon in the player's hand book is the Heavy Crossbow at 50gp (plus the cost for ammo). A greatsword costs just as much and doesnt waste money on ammo, but since it is considered a Martial Weapon can it not be used?

If you go by "well, if it costs money than it isnt simple" philosophy, than the only weapons one could use are the club, the quarterstaff, and the sling (as long as you ignore the cost for ammo). A bokken (a simple wooden weapon shapped like a katana which has been talked about on several posts) could be considered as a simple weapon in this respect, but it is a martial or exotic weapon depending on the style by which it is being used. So is it the classification of the weapon that determines if it is simple or not?

There are several weapons that I would consider usable by people with VoP that aren't "technically" simple. I think that as long as they arent made of a special or rare material, magically endowed, or masterwork they should be ok, especially if they are the God's favored weapon.

Example: Would a Favored-Soul of Kord (fav weapon Greatsword) be denied the ability to serve his higher power using the weapon of which the god favors even if the weapon is ordinary and hand-me-down? Sure, he might be able to sell it for some gold which he could use to feed some hungry people, but that money would be better used to help him serve his cause.

These are just some of the questions I have. Please let me know.
Santherus
01-20-04, 07:55 AM See the relevant page of your PHB for the listing of simple weapons:

Gauntlet
Unarmed strike
Dagger
Dagger, punching
Gauntlet, spiked
Mace, light
Sickle
Club
Mace, heavy
Morningstar
Shortspear
Longspear
Quarterstaff
Spear
Dart
Javelin
Sling

I've not included crossbow in the above, as no provision is made for the usage of ammunition. Sling would be permissible, as you can use sling stones (see penalty clause in weapon description for stone rather than bullet usage) for free.

The general thinking of 'cost' isn't the only factor, despite this being a Vow of Poverty. The Vow is restricting you to the lower-powered weapons in the game - no trip/disarm bonii - although on the list you have Quarterstaff (2H weapon/Double Weapon), and Longspear (reach weapon), and dagger - good damage for its size, light (i.e. finessable), and throwable.

If you're using a more complicated weapon (such as the greatsword) then you haven't really put aside wordly things - you're concentrating on the training involved in using it (i.e. martial weapon proficiency).

I can see where they're coming from on this, but would have preferred that they specifically restricted crossbows, rather than relying on the ammunition clause (or lack thereof).
paolung
01-20-04, 09:25 AM Example: Would a Favored-Soul of Kord (fav weapon Greatsword) be denied the ability to serve his higher power using the weapon of which the god favors even if the weapon is ordinary and hand-me-down? Sure, he might be able to sell it for some gold which he could use to feed some hungry people, but that money would be better used to help him serve his cause.

IMO, they'd break their vow if they had anything other than a simple weapon as described.
Santherus
01-20-04, 03:34 PM Succintly put. Yep. No martial weapons for you.
Levism84
01-20-04, 04:21 PM So you are saying that the training is the important factor? If they have to take feats in order to use the weapon, than it counts against them? If that is the case than a Favored Soul of Kord wouldnt be effected because they get the porficiancy, focus, and specialization for free.

But as far as price goes, a Bokken in a martial weapon that costs very little to make. If a Favored Soul used a Bokken in place of their dieties specified weapons, and the feats still worked with the wooden replica, would they still be unable to use it?
Incenjucar
01-20-04, 05:06 PM A bokken is a military training weapon. Not a peasant weapon.
Rex-Havoc
01-20-04, 05:49 PM I think you need to examine the "spirit" of the vow, not the "letter". In several threads I have made the case that "simple weapon" in the description is not the same as "Simple Weapon" as described in the PHB and elsewhere.

I believe the best way to look at an Ascetics weapon would be that is would need to serve some useful purpose outside of mere combat. Therefore a "walking stick" that serves as a Quarterstaff would be ok, a 50gp Heavy crossbow would not.

Just examine the average pay for a Laborer (1sp/day) in D&D and look at the list of Simple Weapons in the PHB and think of how long it would take to save up the money to buy it.

Unfortunatly the book was written so poorly and apparently received so little play-testing before ship that things like this remain in the book. So I guess you will just have to make your own judgement call on what you will allow.
Levism84
01-20-04, 07:34 PM The weapon I am really interested in is the Bokken, or a weapon like it, for my Ascetic Favored Soul. It would be a "club" which is basically half a quarterstaff used like a sword. But the VoP basically says that I cant use martial weapons. The sword is basically a play thing for my character (who is also 12) and he would also use it for combat.

So since it sort of has a purpose outside normal combat, and it would basically have the same price as a club/quarterstaff, would it be viable?

Thoughts?
Incenjucar
01-20-04, 07:59 PM 1) A bokken is NOT just a club with a cool name.

2) It is a MILITARY TRAINING WEAPON.

3) A bokken costs more than a club. In 2e, it cost 10gp, and I doubt the number has changed much. Heck, MY bokken, IRL, cost me ten dollars.

4) It is PURELY a weapon of war training. You can't use it to carve food, and you can't just pick it up off the ground. There's no utility in it; at least a club is better suited for beating the dirt out of a friend's rug, while a bokken may well break for that sort of abuse.
Levism84
01-20-04, 08:06 PM Ugh....

I posted a while back about Wooden Longswords and Bokkens, and the only feedback I got was "it's just a club," and that irritated me than, and now that I try and conform to the "it's just a club" philosophy I get yelled at!

(DURP!)

Ok... better...

What if my character just took a quarterstaff and broke it into two half-quarterstaffs? Would that work? It would be simple (a freaking stick!), it would be cost effective (half of 0 is still 0), and I could just treat it as half a quarterstaff in battle (ie CLUB!!!!!)

(Pulls hair out of head)
Why......
(Puts on smiley face)

Ok, how about that?
Incenjucar
01-20-04, 08:21 PM A bokken is not just a club; it has two methods of use just like a katana (And would require the katana exotic proficiency), just less damage and it's bludgeon (Just take a katana, and lower the damage die by three steps, and make it bludgeon). It's got a narrow edge, which really really hurts, while most plain clubs (Big sticks) are much easier to roll off from. That and you can't stab nearly as easily with a club.

And a broken staff is called a pair of 'jo'.
Levism84
01-20-04, 09:18 PM So would a single "jo" be a simple weapon?
Lago AM3P
01-20-04, 09:25 PM Or, you could just not care and settle with not punishing people who want to fight with a wooden sword, not caring about the stats.

Sheesh.
Citizen Philip
01-20-04, 09:50 PM Originally posted by Levism84
So would a single "jo" be a simple weapon?

You sound like you are fishing for a precedent to use a sword (wood, stone, excreted resin, whatever) as a simple weapon. In the spirit of the vow and even by the rules, swords aren't simple weapons.

If I were to extrapolate on the 'spirit' of the VoP concept and weapons: Anything you can find naturally, ie. has no value is considered a simple weapon.

ie. sticks, a sling (if you consider a sling is a piece of leather or material). Sticks come in two forms, short sticks ie. clubs or long sticks ie. staves.

A whip (perhaps a makeshift whip at -4 with the exotic weapon prof) could be considered a simple weapon for a strong character concept.

Pretty much if you can find it, don't have to spend any money (craft skill) time to prepare it for use as a weapon, it should be okay.

CP
Samwise
01-21-04, 02:29 PM Originally posted by Incenjucar
A bokken is a military training weapon. Not a peasant weapon.

Neither is a spiked gauntlet or a heavy crossbow, while many polearms are.

However, you are correct about a bokken. (Though mine cost about $20, and I wouldn't lower the damage more than 2 steps. Those things are lethal.)

A bokken would not be appropriate for someone with a Vow of Poverty. Take a quarterstaff or a club. (Or if you must have a weapon with a Japanese name, a bo or a jo or any of several other names for simple sticks of varying sizes.)
paolung
01-21-04, 03:32 PM dude in my campaign has a sling with a few bullets and a quarterstaff.

that's all ya really need when it boils down to it.

a ranged weapon and a melee weapon.

to the naysayers, i submit that sling bullets ARE simple weapons and cost 1sp per 10.
Pauper
01-21-04, 04:57 PM Originally posted by Lago AM3P
Or, you could just not care and settle with not punishing people who want to fight with a wooden sword, not caring about the stats.

Well, the point is that the feat allows so many other benefits that you have to figure out what is intended as a limitation/restriction and what is just 'flavor'. In this case, it's pretty obvious that the 'simple weapon' text is intended to be a restriction. So, allowing someone to use pretty much any weapon they want to, thus ignoring the restriction, makes the feat more powerful than it was intended to be.** And with a number of players and DMs already upset that VoP is 'overpowered' to begin with, anything that effectively increases the power of the feat is a Seriously Bad Thing.

My own feeling is that you can call your 'simple weapon' anything you want - bokken, jo, tanto, screaming meanie stick, whatever. As long as the game stats are no better than a D&D club (or, as in the case of the quarterstaff, a double-club), you're OK.

** - And let's not forget that we may very well be dealing with closet munchkins here - after a few months, the player can justly argue, "Hey, I've been using this bokken for months, and in the 'real world' people train with bokken to be able to use katanas and the like - I should be able to use a katana now at no penalty." *That* would be a serious problem, IMO.

--
Pauper
Levism84
02-21-04, 03:37 PM Actually, i thought i might call it the sword of merciful bludgeoning.
Slagger the Chuul
02-24-04, 09:07 AM Please note that the ammunition for simple weapons is listed on the weapons table in the simple weapons section (surprise, surprise).

If you want to limit the feat to what you consider the spirit of the rules, that's fine. As is, the feat allows you to use any simple weapon; that means any weapon listed as "simple", rather than martial or exotic. This is the only definition of a "simple" weapon in 3.0/3.5 D&D.
darksyn
04-08-04, 02:51 PM Can you make things (silk from harvested speder silks, or a wooden weapon from a stick in the woods -2 penalty to craft for not having the standard craft tools etc) Please let me know

Thanx in Advance

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Levism84 01-20-04, 01:14 AM	I was just wondering, what is considered a "simple" weapon when dealing with the VoP? I know it says that the weapon of choice is often a Quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick, but I was just wondering what exactly could and couldnt be considered. There are some weapons that are simple in construction but "exotic" in use (blowgun), and others that are complex in construction and "simple" in use (crossbow). I mean, I know that it clearly says no Masterwork and/or Magical weapons. I am also thinking any weapon that is made from a rare material, but does that put out ALL metal weapons such as the dagger or kurki? In the mater of price, the most expensive "simple" weapon in the player's hand book is the Heavy Crossbow at 50gp (plus the cost for ammo). A greatsword costs just as much and doesnt waste money on ammo, but since it is considered a Martial Weapon can it not be used? If you go by "well, if it costs money than it isnt simple" philosophy, than the only weapons one could use are the club, the quarterstaff, and the sling (as long as you ignore the cost for ammo). A bokken (a simple wooden weapon shapped like a katana which has been talked about on several posts) could be considered as a simple weapon in this respect, but it is a martial or exotic weapon depending on the style by which it is being used. So is it the classification of the weapon that determines if it is simple or not? There are several weapons that I would consider usable by people with VoP that aren't "technically" simple. I think that as long as they arent made of a special or rare material, magically endowed, or masterwork they should be ok, especially if they are the God's favored weapon. Example: Would a Favored-Soul of Kord (fav weapon Greatsword) be denied the ability to serve his higher power using the weapon of which the god favors even if the weapon is ordinary and hand-me-down? Sure, he might be able to sell it for some gold which he could use to feed some hungry people, but that money would be better used to help him serve his cause. These are just some of the questions I have. Please let me know.
Santherus 01-20-04, 07:55 AM	See the relevant page of your PHB for the listing of simple weapons: Gauntlet Unarmed strike Dagger Dagger, punching Gauntlet, spiked Mace, light Sickle Club Mace, heavy Morningstar Shortspear Longspear Quarterstaff Spear Dart Javelin Sling I've not included crossbow in the above, as no provision is made for the usage of ammunition. Sling would be permissible, as you can use sling stones (see penalty clause in weapon description for stone rather than bullet usage) for free. The general thinking of 'cost' isn't the only factor, despite this being a Vow of Poverty. The Vow is restricting you to the lower-powered weapons in the game - no trip/disarm bonii - although on the list you have Quarterstaff (2H weapon/Double Weapon), and Longspear (reach weapon), and dagger - good damage for its size, light (i.e. finessable), and throwable. If you're using a more complicated weapon (such as the greatsword) then you haven't really put aside wordly things - you're concentrating on the training involved in using it (i.e. martial weapon proficiency). I can see where they're coming from on this, but would have preferred that they specifically restricted crossbows, rather than relying on the ammunition clause (or lack thereof).
paolung 01-20-04, 09:25 AM	Example: Would a Favored-Soul of Kord (fav weapon Greatsword) be denied the ability to serve his higher power using the weapon of which the god favors even if the weapon is ordinary and hand-me-down? Sure, he might be able to sell it for some gold which he could use to feed some hungry people, but that money would be better used to help him serve his cause. IMO, they'd break their vow if they had anything other than a simple weapon as described.
Santherus 01-20-04, 03:34 PM	Succintly put. Yep. No martial weapons for you.
Levism84 01-20-04, 04:21 PM	So you are saying that the training is the important factor? If they have to take feats in order to use the weapon, than it counts against them? If that is the case than a Favored Soul of Kord wouldnt be effected because they get the porficiancy, focus, and specialization for free. But as far as price goes, a Bokken in a martial weapon that costs very little to make. If a Favored Soul used a Bokken in place of their dieties specified weapons, and the feats still worked with the wooden replica, would they still be unable to use it?
Incenjucar 01-20-04, 05:06 PM	A bokken is a military training weapon. Not a peasant weapon.
Rex-Havoc 01-20-04, 05:49 PM	I think you need to examine the "spirit" of the vow, not the "letter". In several threads I have made the case that "simple weapon" in the description is not the same as "Simple Weapon" as described in the PHB and elsewhere. I believe the best way to look at an Ascetics weapon would be that is would need to serve some useful purpose outside of mere combat. Therefore a "walking stick" that serves as a Quarterstaff would be ok, a 50gp Heavy crossbow would not. Just examine the average pay for a Laborer (1sp/day) in D&D and look at the list of Simple Weapons in the PHB and think of how long it would take to save up the money to buy it. Unfortunatly the book was written so poorly and apparently received so little play-testing before ship that things like this remain in the book. So I guess you will just have to make your own judgement call on what you will allow.
Levism84 01-20-04, 07:34 PM	The weapon I am really interested in is the Bokken, or a weapon like it, for my Ascetic Favored Soul. It would be a "club" which is basically half a quarterstaff used like a sword. But the VoP basically says that I cant use martial weapons. The sword is basically a play thing for my character (who is also 12) and he would also use it for combat. So since it sort of has a purpose outside normal combat, and it would basically have the same price as a club/quarterstaff, would it be viable? Thoughts?
Incenjucar 01-20-04, 07:59 PM	1) A bokken is NOT just a club with a cool name. 2) It is a MILITARY TRAINING WEAPON. 3) A bokken costs more than a club. In 2e, it cost 10gp, and I doubt the number has changed much. Heck, MY bokken, IRL, cost me ten dollars. 4) It is PURELY a weapon of war training. You can't use it to carve food, and you can't just pick it up off the ground. There's no utility in it; at least a club is better suited for beating the dirt out of a friend's rug, while a bokken may well break for that sort of abuse.
Levism84 01-20-04, 08:06 PM	Ugh.... I posted a while back about Wooden Longswords and Bokkens, and the only feedback I got was "it's just a club," and that irritated me than, and now that I try and conform to the "it's just a club" philosophy I get yelled at! (DURP!) Ok... better... What if my character just took a quarterstaff and broke it into two half-quarterstaffs? Would that work? It would be simple (a freaking stick!), it would be cost effective (half of 0 is still 0), and I could just treat it as half a quarterstaff in battle (ie CLUB!!!!!) (Pulls hair out of head) Why...... (Puts on smiley face) Ok, how about that?
Incenjucar 01-20-04, 08:21 PM	A bokken is not just a club; it has two methods of use just like a katana (And would require the katana exotic proficiency), just less damage and it's bludgeon (Just take a katana, and lower the damage die by three steps, and make it bludgeon). It's got a narrow edge, which really really hurts, while most plain clubs (Big sticks) are much easier to roll off from. That and you can't stab nearly as easily with a club. And a broken staff is called a pair of 'jo'.
Levism84 01-20-04, 09:18 PM	So would a single "jo" be a simple weapon?
Lago AM3P 01-20-04, 09:25 PM	Or, you could just not care and settle with not punishing people who want to fight with a wooden sword, not caring about the stats. Sheesh.
Citizen Philip 01-20-04, 09:50 PM	Originally posted by Levism84 So would a single "jo" be a simple weapon? You sound like you are fishing for a precedent to use a sword (wood, stone, excreted resin, whatever) as a simple weapon. In the spirit of the vow and even by the rules, swords aren't simple weapons. If I were to extrapolate on the 'spirit' of the VoP concept and weapons: Anything you can find naturally, ie. has no value is considered a simple weapon. ie. sticks, a sling (if you consider a sling is a piece of leather or material). Sticks come in two forms, short sticks ie. clubs or long sticks ie. staves. A whip (perhaps a makeshift whip at -4 with the exotic weapon prof) could be considered a simple weapon for a strong character concept. Pretty much if you can find it, don't have to spend any money (craft skill) time to prepare it for use as a weapon, it should be okay. CP
Samwise 01-21-04, 02:29 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar A bokken is a military training weapon. Not a peasant weapon. Neither is a spiked gauntlet or a heavy crossbow, while many polearms are. However, you are correct about a bokken. (Though mine cost about $20, and I wouldn't lower the damage more than 2 steps. Those things are lethal.) A bokken would not be appropriate for someone with a Vow of Poverty. Take a quarterstaff or a club. (Or if you must have a weapon with a Japanese name, a bo or a jo or any of several other names for simple sticks of varying sizes.)
paolung 01-21-04, 03:32 PM	dude in my campaign has a sling with a few bullets and a quarterstaff. that's all ya really need when it boils down to it. a ranged weapon and a melee weapon. to the naysayers, i submit that sling bullets ARE simple weapons and cost 1sp per 10.
Pauper 01-21-04, 04:57 PM	Originally posted by Lago AM3P Or, you could just not care and settle with not punishing people who want to fight with a wooden sword, not caring about the stats. Well, the point is that the feat allows so many other benefits that you have to figure out what is intended as a limitation/restriction and what is just 'flavor'. In this case, it's pretty obvious that the 'simple weapon' text is intended to be a restriction. So, allowing someone to use pretty much any weapon they want to, thus ignoring the restriction, makes the feat more powerful than it was intended to be. And with a number of players and DMs already upset that VoP is 'overpowered' to begin with, anything that effectively increases the power of the feat is a Seriously Bad Thing. My own feeling is that you can call your 'simple weapon' anything you want - bokken, jo, tanto, screaming meanie stick, whatever. As long as the game stats are no better than a D&D club (or, as in the case of the quarterstaff, a double-club), you're OK. - And let's not forget that we may very well be dealing with closet munchkins here - after a few months, the player can justly argue, "Hey, I've been using this bokken for months, and in the 'real world' people train with bokken to be able to use katanas and the like - I should be able to use a katana now at no penalty." That would be a serious problem, IMO. -- Pauper
Levism84 02-21-04, 03:37 PM	Actually, i thought i might call it the sword of merciful bludgeoning.
Slagger the Chuul 02-24-04, 09:07 AM	Please note that the ammunition for simple weapons is listed on the weapons table in the simple weapons section (surprise, surprise). If you want to limit the feat to what you consider the spirit of the rules, that's fine. As is, the feat allows you to use any simple weapon; that means any weapon listed as "simple", rather than martial or exotic. This is the only definition of a "simple" weapon in 3.0/3.5 D&D.
darksyn 04-08-04, 02:51 PM	Can you make things (silk from harvested speder silks, or a wooden weapon from a stick in the woods -2 penalty to craft for not having the standard craft tools etc) Please let me know Thanx in Advance