Clerifications of Vow of Peace and Nonviolence: [Archive] - Wizards Community

Clerifications of Vow of Peace and Nonviolence: [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zolgar
07-23-04, 03:26 AM Okay, the first is a slight bit more important:

On Vow of Peace, does the same thing apply as with Vow of Nonviolence, that you can make your captured enemy swear to behave (pretty much), and if he breaks his oath, you are not held acountable for your allies acts?

And second:

With the same thing, if the captive enemy refuses to take the oath, is that grounds for the same as if he broke the oath?

No, I'm not asking these for powergaming to try and get around the limitations, I'm just playing a character currently pursuing Apostle of Peace and I need to know the ramifications of everythin'.
Slagger the Chuul
07-23-04, 05:18 AM The Vow of Peace doesn't ask all the same requirements as the Vow of Nonviolence, partially because they're already covered. The reference to allies killing helpless foes doesn't actually say that it only applies to humanoids or monstrous humanoids, unlike personally dealing damage to "such foes", which does. Arguably, though, the entire body of the Special section refers only to humanoids and monstrous humanoids.

Regardless of that particular point, the Vow of Peace only says that you can't help incapacitate a foe so that your allies can kill it. Unlike the Vow of Nonviolence, there is no literal requirement to protect helpless foes if you didn't assist in making them helpless, although ignoring them is basically against the spirit of the vow, and you may be breaking your Vow of Nonviolence (which is prerequisite for the Vow of Peace) anyway, if you do so.

On the second point, a creature that doesn't surrender (if it can do anything that matters) or directly interfers isn't really helpless or defenceless, so I personally feel the stipulation is a moot point. On the other hand, if the foe isn't armed and dangerous, but is still troublesome, you should prevent your allies from killing them, and competent allies shouldn't have any trouble subduing a foe that's actually defenceless.

If you're truly in doubt on a particular action, check your DM's opinion. Asking the DM "As an Apostle of Peace, should I be letting them do that?" at the relevant time (or beforehand in speculation) won't hurt.
Elendur
07-23-04, 12:38 PM I think you are confused on the oath thing.

If your allies injure someone you have rendered helpless, they take penalties, if you are nearby. You can have your allies swear oaths such that if you leave the area they are under the same restrictions.

In either case, if they do attack you are not in violation of your Vow. You warned them that helpless foe was under your protection, and they suffer the concequences for being violent.

Now, if you wander off, full knowing that your friends will kill the guy, you have broken your Vow, by "looking the other way".
Zolgar
07-23-04, 05:02 PM Originally posted by Elendur
I think you are confused on the oath thing.

If your allies injure someone you have rendered helpless, they take penalties, if you are nearby. You can have your allies swear oaths such that if you leave the area they are under the same restrictions.

Not injure, kill :p If they kill a helpless foe they recieve the penalties.

In either case, if they do attack you are not in violation of your Vow. You warned them that helpless foe was under your protection, and they suffer the concequences for being violent.

Now, if you wander off, full knowing that your friends will kill the guy, you have broken your Vow, by "looking the other way".

.... you didn't say a single thing I didn't know.

The oath in vow of nonviolence is two fold:

1: you can have your allies swear an oath to you that they will not kill a helpless foe, this is an in-general oath, dealing with any/all helpless foes, and if they do, they recieve the same penalties as if you'd been 120' or less away, no matter where you are.

2: you can take a captive prisoner and have it swear an oath to you that it will 'not make trouble', if it swears the oath, your allies recieve the penalty for killing a helpless foe if they kill it. If it breaks its oath however, you are not breaking your vow by letting your allies 'deal with it as they see fit'

So what I am asking, both in terms of the second option:

Can you make subdued enemies swear that same oath with Vow of Peace, and if they break it, are the consiquences the same?

And:

If the subdued enemy just refuses to take the oath to behave, is that grounds for the same treatment as if he broke the vow?

This also makes me think of a third question:

With Vow of Peace, do the effects of Vow of Nonviolence now spread to all creatures save undead and constructs, instead of just humans/humanoids.

I, unlike some people, actualy read the entirey of the text on my feats, and these two points are not covered in the book.

And from an IC standpoint, I know what I should and should not allow them to do. but I want to OOCly know the rules of a few potential options so that if it comes to it (ICly she still won't like them killing) I know wether or not they recieve any penalties for killing.

And just an interesting one for people to think about:

What if a non-humanoid takes Vow of Nonviolence?
Slagger the Chuul
07-24-04, 05:14 AM Technically speaking, the Vow of Peace doesn't simply extend the Vow of Nonviolence abilities; it has its own stipulations, and it doesn't provide any leeway for oaths or any specific penalty or allowance if such oaths are broken. The oath is part of the Vow of Nonviolence, not the Vow of Peace.

If the foe is captured, but refuses to agree to the Nonviolence oath, they aren't protected by it. You still have to stop your allies killing a helpless foe, but the definition of helpless is that you're completely at the mercy of opponents by being unconcious, bound, paralyzed and so on. If they actually are "helpless" by the D&D definition, your allies have no need to kill, and you should stop them. If they're not "helpless" you aren't technically required to stop your allies from killing them, but they still take the morale penalty if they kill a "defenceless" foe, whatever that means.

Unfortunately, they didn't specify what was meant by "defenceless", but the Vow of Nonviolence only says that you've broken the vow if you let your allies kill a "helpless" foe, not a "defenceless" one, so that's not your problem.

In summary:
If your allies kill "defenceless" foes, they just suffer the morale penalty and you don't break your vow, even if you watch, laugh, and make a instruction book for young villains about it. :)

If you allow them to kill "helpless" foes, you've broken the Vow of Nonviolence unless they broke their oath of surrender. Your allies still suffer the morale penalty if they kill someone under the oath (unless the DM says that you breaking the vow nullifies the morale penalty it bestows).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zolgar 07-23-04, 03:26 AM	Okay, the first is a slight bit more important: On Vow of Peace, does the same thing apply as with Vow of Nonviolence, that you can make your captured enemy swear to behave (pretty much), and if he breaks his oath, you are not held acountable for your allies acts? And second: With the same thing, if the captive enemy refuses to take the oath, is that grounds for the same as if he broke the oath? No, I'm not asking these for powergaming to try and get around the limitations, I'm just playing a character currently pursuing Apostle of Peace and I need to know the ramifications of everythin'.
Slagger the Chuul 07-23-04, 05:18 AM	The Vow of Peace doesn't ask all the same requirements as the Vow of Nonviolence, partially because they're already covered. The reference to allies killing helpless foes doesn't actually say that it only applies to humanoids or monstrous humanoids, unlike personally dealing damage to "such foes", which does. Arguably, though, the entire body of the Special section refers only to humanoids and monstrous humanoids. Regardless of that particular point, the Vow of Peace only says that you can't help incapacitate a foe so that your allies can kill it. Unlike the Vow of Nonviolence, there is no literal requirement to protect helpless foes if you didn't assist in making them helpless, although ignoring them is basically against the spirit of the vow, and you may be breaking your Vow of Nonviolence (which is prerequisite for the Vow of Peace) anyway, if you do so. On the second point, a creature that doesn't surrender (if it can do anything that matters) or directly interfers isn't really helpless or defenceless, so I personally feel the stipulation is a moot point. On the other hand, if the foe isn't armed and dangerous, but is still troublesome, you should prevent your allies from killing them, and competent allies shouldn't have any trouble subduing a foe that's actually defenceless. If you're truly in doubt on a particular action, check your DM's opinion. Asking the DM "As an Apostle of Peace, should I be letting them do that?" at the relevant time (or beforehand in speculation) won't hurt.
Elendur 07-23-04, 12:38 PM	I think you are confused on the oath thing. If your allies injure someone you have rendered helpless, they take penalties, if you are nearby. You can have your allies swear oaths such that if you leave the area they are under the same restrictions. In either case, if they do attack you are not in violation of your Vow. You warned them that helpless foe was under your protection, and they suffer the concequences for being violent. Now, if you wander off, full knowing that your friends will kill the guy, you have broken your Vow, by "looking the other way".
Zolgar 07-23-04, 05:02 PM	Originally posted by Elendur I think you are confused on the oath thing. If your allies injure someone you have rendered helpless, they take penalties, if you are nearby. You can have your allies swear oaths such that if you leave the area they are under the same restrictions. Not injure, kill :p If they kill a helpless foe they recieve the penalties. In either case, if they do attack you are not in violation of your Vow. You warned them that helpless foe was under your protection, and they suffer the concequences for being violent. Now, if you wander off, full knowing that your friends will kill the guy, you have broken your Vow, by "looking the other way". .... you didn't say a single thing I didn't know. The oath in vow of nonviolence is two fold: 1: you can have your allies swear an oath to you that they will not kill a helpless foe, this is an in-general oath, dealing with any/all helpless foes, and if they do, they recieve the same penalties as if you'd been 120' or less away, no matter where you are. 2: you can take a captive prisoner and have it swear an oath to you that it will 'not make trouble', if it swears the oath, your allies recieve the penalty for killing a helpless foe if they kill it. If it breaks its oath however, you are not breaking your vow by letting your allies 'deal with it as they see fit' So what I am asking, both in terms of the second option: Can you make subdued enemies swear that same oath with Vow of Peace, and if they break it, are the consiquences the same? And: If the subdued enemy just refuses to take the oath to behave, is that grounds for the same treatment as if he broke the vow? This also makes me think of a third question: With Vow of Peace, do the effects of Vow of Nonviolence now spread to all creatures save undead and constructs, instead of just humans/humanoids. I, unlike some people, actualy read the entirey of the text on my feats, and these two points are not covered in the book. And from an IC standpoint, I know what I should and should not allow them to do. but I want to OOCly know the rules of a few potential options so that if it comes to it (ICly she still won't like them killing) I know wether or not they recieve any penalties for killing. And just an interesting one for people to think about: What if a non-humanoid takes Vow of Nonviolence?
Slagger the Chuul 07-24-04, 05:14 AM	Technically speaking, the Vow of Peace doesn't simply extend the Vow of Nonviolence abilities; it has its own stipulations, and it doesn't provide any leeway for oaths or any specific penalty or allowance if such oaths are broken. The oath is part of the Vow of Nonviolence, not the Vow of Peace. If the foe is captured, but refuses to agree to the Nonviolence oath, they aren't protected by it. You still have to stop your allies killing a helpless foe, but the definition of helpless is that you're completely at the mercy of opponents by being unconcious, bound, paralyzed and so on. If they actually are "helpless" by the D&D definition, your allies have no need to kill, and you should stop them. If they're not "helpless" you aren't technically required to stop your allies from killing them, but they still take the morale penalty if they kill a "defenceless" foe, whatever that means. Unfortunately, they didn't specify what was meant by "defenceless", but the Vow of Nonviolence only says that you've broken the vow if you let your allies kill a "helpless" foe, not a "defenceless" one, so that's not your problem. In summary: If your allies kill "defenceless" foes, they just suffer the morale penalty and you don't break your vow, even if you watch, laugh, and make a instruction book for young villains about it. :) If you allow them to kill "helpless" foes, you've broken the Vow of Nonviolence unless they broke their oath of surrender. Your allies still suffer the morale penalty if they kill someone under the oath (unless the DM says that you breaking the vow nullifies the morale penalty it bestows).