Cliche's [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Cliche's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fimbulvetr
10-24-07, 12:01 AM So im running this campaign and the antoagonist is a fallen angel.... whos name is Blackheart.....yeah. But it does have alot of political intrigue, kick ass monster mashing, and i use the taint mechanic in "Heroes of Horror". Hes got like a cult following, complete with blighters, blackguards, assasains, bad fellows of every imaginable vocation and variety. He pits potentates, he toples topography, he recks up the whole place. Of course he's got the Sephiroth deal going; disgruntled teenager with a large-axe, namely a vile god named Tzeentch that he plans to unleash on the world.

I really, really like his cohorts, I really, really like the general feel of the campaign (dark, cinical, and even forboding at times.) and I'm really excited to play it. I have a few new races, some sick variant rules, but;

.....is he just plain too cliche?
Makuya
10-24-07, 12:06 AM I'm not expert on the subject, but it emnates cliche alright. That's all I have to say.
Talisman
10-24-07, 12:21 AM "Cliche" doesn't necessarily mean "bad." A cliche is just a classic trapped in bad writing.

For example: Slaying the Dragon and Saving the Princess = Cliche. But what D&D player doesn't like slaying the dragon? Dragons are awesome foes, and nothing boosts your street cred like the title "Dragonslayer."

Rescuing Ye Princess (in her obligatory Tall Pointy Princess Hat that makes her look like a deranged Wizard of Pink) is done to death...but what true hero can resist the "they've kindnapped [so and so]!" Kidnapping is a perfectly valid form of evil, and rescuing someone slated to die in some horrible fashion is certainly the stuff of heroism.

Explore the underlying story. Take cliche elements and tweak them into something new. Keep certain plot elements the same (i.e., the rescue) but change the appearance (i.e., instead of "Princess," how about "wizard's nephew"? Instead of "dragon," try "recently-awakened evil titan," or "eldritch horror from the Far Realm.")

Sometimes a new coat o' paint can work wonders.
Sinfire Titan
10-24-07, 03:44 AM So im running this campaign and the antoagonist is a fallen angel.... whos name is Blackheart.....yeah. But it does have alot of political intrigue, kick ass monster mashing, and i use the taint mechanic in "Heroes of Horror". Hes got like a cult following, complete with blighters, blackguards, assasains, bad fellows of every imaginable vocation and variety. He pits potentates, he toples topography, he recks up the whole place. Of course he's got the Sephiroth deal going; disgruntled teenager with a large-axe, namely a vile god named Tzeentch that he plans to unleash on the world.

I really, really like his cohorts, I really, really like the general feel of the campaign (dark, cinical, and even forboding at times.) and I'm really excited to play it. I have a few new races, some sick variant rules, but;

.....is he just plain too cliche?

Bad! No god of Chaos for you! The Weaver of Fate works for no puny DM. Ever!

Aside from that, Cliche has never been done to death. It can't die. You may get a groan from someone who recognizes it off the bat, but it is what motivates creativity.

For starters, how did he fall from grace? Who is he angry at due to this event, himself or someone else? Why does he worship this god? (Again, bad!) What are his goals? Does he want to return to his former self? Or does he want to destroy those who made him fall? These things keep it from being obviously cliche, and add a few more perspectives to your villain.
dknight100
10-24-07, 04:33 PM Indeed, there cliche's there, but thats not a bad thing in itself. If your players are keen, don't worry if its not completely original - and its also important that you as a DM are keen for what your running, as you have to work with it a lot more than your players do.

If the cliche's are just boring everyone, then I'd worry, but for the moment, you'll be fine.
Bacon and Eggs
10-24-07, 04:57 PM Does he have a cape?
Return of the Flumph
10-24-07, 05:15 PM Make his personality memorable and developed, and think of some realistic motivations for him and his followers. Thus is a cliche turned into a classic.
_Jayne_Cobb_
10-24-07, 05:17 PM .....is he just plain too cliche?

His name is Blackheart and you refer to both Warhammer and Final Fantasy in reference to him. It could not be more cliché if his name was King Cliché von Clichénstein of Clichéonia.
Alter_Boy
10-24-07, 06:06 PM It's all in the delivery. The Simpsons runs the most basic cliches of sitcoms, but does it so well, that the cliches are key to its success.

Your best bet is to hook it for your players' desires. Do they like Final Fantasy and Warhammer? Then play up that material. Do they prefer gangster shoot-em-ups? Portray the group as more of a gang. Horror? Cult. Military? Make them an army.

We all love cliches. Just not the same ones.
Fimbulvetr
10-26-07, 01:53 AM Yeah i bummed Tzeentch... its a hella sweet name....and Blackheart has nothing to do with final fantasy, i remeber hearing there was a charecter in adian song...and blackheart showed up in the lyrics

Thanks for the imput guys, im relaly excited to see how it turns out

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fimbulvetr 10-24-07, 12:01 AM	So im running this campaign and the antoagonist is a fallen angel.... whos name is Blackheart.....yeah. But it does have alot of political intrigue, kick ass monster mashing, and i use the taint mechanic in "Heroes of Horror". Hes got like a cult following, complete with blighters, blackguards, assasains, bad fellows of every imaginable vocation and variety. He pits potentates, he toples topography, he recks up the whole place. Of course he's got the Sephiroth deal going; disgruntled teenager with a large-axe, namely a vile god named Tzeentch that he plans to unleash on the world. I really, really like his cohorts, I really, really like the general feel of the campaign (dark, cinical, and even forboding at times.) and I'm really excited to play it. I have a few new races, some sick variant rules, but; .....is he just plain too cliche?
Makuya 10-24-07, 12:06 AM	I'm not expert on the subject, but it emnates cliche alright. That's all I have to say.
Talisman 10-24-07, 12:21 AM	"Cliche" doesn't necessarily mean "bad." A cliche is just a classic trapped in bad writing. For example: Slaying the Dragon and Saving the Princess = Cliche. But what D&D player doesn't like slaying the dragon? Dragons are awesome foes, and nothing boosts your street cred like the title "Dragonslayer." Rescuing Ye Princess (in her obligatory Tall Pointy Princess Hat that makes her look like a deranged Wizard of Pink) is done to death...but what true hero can resist the "they've kindnapped [so and so]!" Kidnapping is a perfectly valid form of evil, and rescuing someone slated to die in some horrible fashion is certainly the stuff of heroism. Explore the underlying story. Take cliche elements and tweak them into something new. Keep certain plot elements the same (i.e., the rescue) but change the appearance (i.e., instead of "Princess," how about "wizard's nephew"? Instead of "dragon," try "recently-awakened evil titan," or "eldritch horror from the Far Realm.") Sometimes a new coat o' paint can work wonders.
Sinfire Titan 10-24-07, 03:44 AM	So im running this campaign and the antoagonist is a fallen angel.... whos name is Blackheart.....yeah. But it does have alot of political intrigue, kick ass monster mashing, and i use the taint mechanic in "Heroes of Horror". Hes got like a cult following, complete with blighters, blackguards, assasains, bad fellows of every imaginable vocation and variety. He pits potentates, he toples topography, he recks up the whole place. Of course he's got the Sephiroth deal going; disgruntled teenager with a large-axe, namely a vile god named Tzeentch that he plans to unleash on the world. I really, really like his cohorts, I really, really like the general feel of the campaign (dark, cinical, and even forboding at times.) and I'm really excited to play it. I have a few new races, some sick variant rules, but; .....is he just plain too cliche? Bad! No god of Chaos for you! The Weaver of Fate works for no puny DM. Ever! Aside from that, Cliche has never been done to death. It can't die. You may get a groan from someone who recognizes it off the bat, but it is what motivates creativity. For starters, how did he fall from grace? Who is he angry at due to this event, himself or someone else? Why does he worship this god? (Again, bad!) What are his goals? Does he want to return to his former self? Or does he want to destroy those who made him fall? These things keep it from being obviously cliche, and add a few more perspectives to your villain.
dknight100 10-24-07, 04:33 PM	Indeed, there cliche's there, but thats not a bad thing in itself. If your players are keen, don't worry if its not completely original - and its also important that you as a DM are keen for what your running, as you have to work with it a lot more than your players do. If the cliche's are just boring everyone, then I'd worry, but for the moment, you'll be fine.
Bacon and Eggs 10-24-07, 04:57 PM	Does he have a cape?
Return of the Flumph 10-24-07, 05:15 PM	Make his personality memorable and developed, and think of some realistic motivations for him and his followers. Thus is a cliche turned into a classic.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 10-24-07, 05:17 PM	.....is he just plain too cliche? His name is Blackheart and you refer to both Warhammer and Final Fantasy in reference to him. It could not be more cliché if his name was King Cliché von Clichénstein of Clichéonia.
Alter_Boy 10-24-07, 06:06 PM	It's all in the delivery. The Simpsons runs the most basic cliches of sitcoms, but does it so well, that the cliches are key to its success. Your best bet is to hook it for your players' desires. Do they like Final Fantasy and Warhammer? Then play up that material. Do they prefer gangster shoot-em-ups? Portray the group as more of a gang. Horror? Cult. Military? Make them an army. We all love cliches. Just not the same ones.
Fimbulvetr 10-26-07, 01:53 AM	Yeah i bummed Tzeentch... its a hella sweet name....and Blackheart has nothing to do with final fantasy, i remeber hearing there was a charecter in adian song...and blackheart showed up in the lyrics Thanks for the imput guys, im relaly excited to see how it turns out