Cliche? Why? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cliche? Why? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jthaxton
11-15-05, 06:35 PM In reading through the wizards.com articles, I came across the one regarding the contest for new campaign writers. Therein, the author warned against using cliches such as the "army of undead." This got me wondering.
Through much of the earlier D&D modules I don't recall many that were based around the undead; only vecna rings a bell and I don't know much of the vecna storyline. Mind you I'm only considering the Greyhawk campaigns. I don't delve at all into any of the other worlds.

Three questions:
Why is this considered cliche?
Can any module that uses the core books be original? (That is, at the core, you will almost always have the PCs versus the antagonist in battle and wit. There isn't much variety, I don't think.)
Can an undead campaign be original (as far as a D&D campaign is original) even though it has an undead army?

Masterminds are people too. ;P
Draco Strang
11-15-05, 06:56 PM "The Undead Army" is considered cliche because any DM worth his salt (and a lot that aren't) have run at least one of these adventures in their time. The giant horde of undead monsters led by an evil vampire/necromancer/cleric mastermind is just timeless.

Also, such an adventure is usually very straightforward. You know the enemy, the goal, what is needed to achieve success, and the consequences of failure. Little in the way of plot twists or complex machinations.
Giant Turtle
11-15-05, 07:09 PM Yeah, but undead armies are fun, especially as more of a plot thing with other stuff going on.
weasel fierce
11-15-05, 07:30 PM Things become cliche because they work.
Just dont overdo the same one, with the same group of players, and you'll be fine.

With most things WOTC puts out, there is an urgent need to point out that new is better, and that has to be taken with a grain of salt
Rocketboy13
11-15-05, 08:23 PM This topic has existed for so long and in so many forms. The Black Cauldron, Lord of the Rings, in Piers Anthony's Xanth there is a character called the Zombie king, who is intelligent and was born from the union of a zombie mother and human father. :eek: :yuck:
It is cliche because there is no area left unexplored in its concept. If you can think of any, please let me know. :whatsthis
Seeker95
11-15-05, 09:12 PM It is cliche because there is no area left unexplored in its concept.That is not what makes it cliche.
It is cliche because it is A trite or overused expression or idea.
Whether there is no area left unexplored is immaterial.
Lord Gwydion
11-15-05, 09:20 PM In reading through the wizards.com articles, I came across the one regarding the contest for new campaign writers. Therein, the author warned against using cliches such as the "army of undead." This got me wondering.
Through much of the earlier D&D modules I don't recall many that were based around the undead; only vecna rings a bell and I don't know much of the vecna storyline. Mind you I'm only considering the Greyhawk campaigns. I don't delve at all into any of the other worlds.

Three questions:
Why is this considered cliche?
Can any module that uses the core books be original? (That is, at the core, you will almost always have the PCs versus the antagonist in battle and wit. There isn't much variety, I don't think.)
Can an undead campaign be original (as far as a D&D campaign is original) even though it has an undead army?

Masterminds are people too. ;P

Interestingly enough, the winner of the campaign setting search, Eberron, has a prominent Undead army. (I think the OP was actually referring to the more recent adventure design contest, but I think my point stands to illustrate how to use cliches to your advantage.)

The thing is, Keith Baker turned the cliche around by making the Undead army not be the force of chaos and destruction, but rather part of the army of a nation that was running low on live troops and took to recycling.

The "Undead Army sweeping the countryside leaving all in darkness" is a cliche. Castlevania video games, the movie Army of Darkness, and others rely on the convention for the plot.

The warning against cliches such as this in the design contest was more of a warning against making an adventure that hangs upon a cliche. Cliches are going to be part of any setting, but giving them original twists or making them just one small part of a more original whole allow the writers to get away with them.

So yes, an adventure module designed with a cliche can still be original depending on how the writer uses the cliche. An adventure module that turns on a cliche (meaning the adventure is dependent on the cliche to function) may have trouble with this. An adventure that uses an old cliche in a new way, or sets up expectations with a cliche then reveals that things are actually different can work.
Nialo
11-15-05, 09:37 PM The concept of an undead army in and of itself is a cliche to the fantasy world, as said before most DMs or fantasy authors have woven some story at one point or another about an evil mastermind backed by a force of big bad evil monsters, whether they be undead, orcs, goblins, gnolls or whatever.

First of all, not every D&D campaign need be entirely origional, and truthfully it's impossible to be completely origional in any creative proccess because we're constantly bombarded by outside stimulus and inspiration - I never understood why it's always been such a gigantic concern. If you are looking to do something origional like people have said, what always works is to take something commonplace and cliche (like an undead army) and put a new perspective on it, and make it yours.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jthaxton 11-15-05, 06:35 PM	In reading through the wizards.com articles, I came across the one regarding the contest for new campaign writers. Therein, the author warned against using cliches such as the "army of undead." This got me wondering. Through much of the earlier D&D modules I don't recall many that were based around the undead; only vecna rings a bell and I don't know much of the vecna storyline. Mind you I'm only considering the Greyhawk campaigns. I don't delve at all into any of the other worlds. Three questions: Why is this considered cliche? Can any module that uses the core books be original? (That is, at the core, you will almost always have the PCs versus the antagonist in battle and wit. There isn't much variety, I don't think.) Can an undead campaign be original (as far as a D&D campaign is original) even though it has an undead army? Masterminds are people too. ;P
Draco Strang 11-15-05, 06:56 PM	"The Undead Army" is considered cliche because any DM worth his salt (and a lot that aren't) have run at least one of these adventures in their time. The giant horde of undead monsters led by an evil vampire/necromancer/cleric mastermind is just timeless. Also, such an adventure is usually very straightforward. You know the enemy, the goal, what is needed to achieve success, and the consequences of failure. Little in the way of plot twists or complex machinations.
Giant Turtle 11-15-05, 07:09 PM	Yeah, but undead armies are fun, especially as more of a plot thing with other stuff going on.
weasel fierce 11-15-05, 07:30 PM	Things become cliche because they work. Just dont overdo the same one, with the same group of players, and you'll be fine. With most things WOTC puts out, there is an urgent need to point out that new is better, and that has to be taken with a grain of salt
Rocketboy13 11-15-05, 08:23 PM	This topic has existed for so long and in so many forms. The Black Cauldron, Lord of the Rings, in Piers Anthony's Xanth there is a character called the Zombie king, who is intelligent and was born from the union of a zombie mother and human father. :eek: :yuck: It is cliche because there is no area left unexplored in its concept. If you can think of any, please let me know. :whatsthis
Seeker95 11-15-05, 09:12 PM	It is cliche because there is no area left unexplored in its concept.That is not what makes it cliche. It is cliche because it is A trite or overused expression or idea. Whether there is no area left unexplored is immaterial.
Lord Gwydion 11-15-05, 09:20 PM	In reading through the wizards.com articles, I came across the one regarding the contest for new campaign writers. Therein, the author warned against using cliches such as the "army of undead." This got me wondering. Through much of the earlier D&D modules I don't recall many that were based around the undead; only vecna rings a bell and I don't know much of the vecna storyline. Mind you I'm only considering the Greyhawk campaigns. I don't delve at all into any of the other worlds. Three questions: Why is this considered cliche? Can any module that uses the core books be original? (That is, at the core, you will almost always have the PCs versus the antagonist in battle and wit. There isn't much variety, I don't think.) Can an undead campaign be original (as far as a D&D campaign is original) even though it has an undead army? Masterminds are people too. ;P Interestingly enough, the winner of the campaign setting search, Eberron, has a prominent Undead army. (I think the OP was actually referring to the more recent adventure design contest, but I think my point stands to illustrate how to use cliches to your advantage.) The thing is, Keith Baker turned the cliche around by making the Undead army not be the force of chaos and destruction, but rather part of the army of a nation that was running low on live troops and took to recycling. The "Undead Army sweeping the countryside leaving all in darkness" is a cliche. Castlevania video games, the movie Army of Darkness, and others rely on the convention for the plot. The warning against cliches such as this in the design contest was more of a warning against making an adventure that hangs upon a cliche. Cliches are going to be part of any setting, but giving them original twists or making them just one small part of a more original whole allow the writers to get away with them. So yes, an adventure module designed with a cliche can still be original depending on how the writer uses the cliche. An adventure module that turns on a cliche (meaning the adventure is dependent on the cliche to function) may have trouble with this. An adventure that uses an old cliche in a new way, or sets up expectations with a cliche then reveals that things are actually different can work.
Nialo 11-15-05, 09:37 PM	The concept of an undead army in and of itself is a cliche to the fantasy world, as said before most DMs or fantasy authors have woven some story at one point or another about an evil mastermind backed by a force of big bad evil monsters, whether they be undead, orcs, goblins, gnolls or whatever. First of all, not every D&D campaign need be entirely origional, and truthfully it's impossible to be completely origional in any creative proccess because we're constantly bombarded by outside stimulus and inspiration - I never understood why it's always been such a gigantic concern. If you are looking to do something origional like people have said, what always works is to take something commonplace and cliche (like an undead army) and put a new perspective on it, and make it yours.