Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ahiman 03-13-06, 04:23 PM	I have noticed that more and more people are making CN and NE the same thing. This is because CN is described as being concerned with its self and acting on its own whimsy while NE is self centered and egotistical. Well I would like some help separating the two from each other and making the world safe for none evil CN people.
Athos 03-13-06, 05:36 PM	let me give you a broad look at this one good - if some random guy atacks you you don't instantly want him dead you might want to incapacitate him and find out why neutral - if some random guy attacks you, you return the favor, if he's thowing fists you throw back, if he uses lethal for, so do you in return evil - he looked at ya funny, kill him if you look at CN you see that chaos give him unpredictability, it not that he does not like, or always fights rules, it that he think for himself, deciding what rules are to be followed and which are foolish. The nutraility on the moral scale leads him to think more of what is good for him, than care for what is good or evil. lets not confuse that with an evil alinment with someone who love to cause pain on others for there enjoymentd, or even no so sadistic, just won't think twice about killing someone to get something. The differeance between chaotic Neutral and nuetral Evil is both a respect for life the evil charichter lacks, and an unpredictablity that a chaotic alinment bestows.
Vaalingrade Ashland 03-13-06, 05:39 PM	evil - he looked at ya funny, kill him Evil does not mean homicidal maniac.
Lina_Inverse 03-13-06, 05:46 PM	If your acting NE your NE. CN is not NE. If plan your actions, your not CN. If harm others for your benefit, your not CN. If you believe in groups, your not CN. If you believe in logic over emotion, your not CN. Remember CN is PURE CHAOTIC. That means emotion, spontainisy and change. Just because you believe societys are the root of all ickyness doesnt mean your selfish. It means you give no respect to society.
Rocketboy13 03-13-06, 05:51 PM	I believe evil is more related to the idea of actually wishing harm on others, and in fact working to cause harm, be it minor (like keying someones car) or major (the Holocaust). Chaos relates more to being free from authority, and often times working against authority, a chaotic person does not necessarily want to hurt anyone, it wants to hurt the system. That is why many people would believe that Osama Bin Laden is Chaotic evil, he wishes to attack established authority (the US and the House of Saud) while at the same time inflicting a great level of suffering on those who do not follow his beliefs. :eek: Tyler Durden from fight club is chaotic neutral. :crazy: :looloo: Vlad the Impaler (Dracula) is neutral evil. :devil:
Nate Jones 03-13-06, 05:58 PM	If your acting NE your NE. CN is not NE. If plan your actions, your not CN. If harm others for your benefit, your not CN. If you believe in groups, your not CN. If you believe in logic over emotion, your not CN. Remember CN is PURE CHAOTIC. That means emotion, spontainisy and change. Just because you believe societys are the root of all ickyness doesnt mean your selfish. It means you give no respect to society. None of your examples are necessarily true. Your final thoughts even, condradict this. A CN individual could certainly believe in groups, if group mentality was what suited him at the time. To insist that if someone ever plans actions ahead of time or ever does something out of self interest, he is CN, is absurd. Alignment cannot be constrained by what it is not, only by what it is. A better example may have been...'If you find yourself acting more on whim than on meticulous planning, you are likely CN,' etc. P.S. And the word is "you're" not "your" in this case Edit: I would add Camus's Stranger to the above poster's CN list
LCD2YOU 03-13-06, 06:25 PM	oops, double post
LCD2YOU 03-13-06, 06:27 PM	The reason so many seem to say that is not so much the alignments are the same but because so many players act like it's the same. Generally, IMO, a CN person goes through life looking to have a fun time. If they are told to leave, they dig up the flowers, write Orcish across the fence and maybe, just maybe, relieve themselves in the person's well. Too many CN types go out to hurt or main those people and say they're CN. A CN humor is bawdy, risque and perhaps not flattering towards those they don't like. CE/NE humor is laughing when someone's getting hurt from their tricks. As I said, it seems too many players think CN is to be mean and kill.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-13-06, 08:12 PM	Evil does not mean homicidal maniac. According to BoED, that means you're good.
ChimericalWolf 03-13-06, 08:37 PM	If plan your actions, your not CN. If harm others for your benefit, your not CN. If you believe in groups, your not CN. If you believe in logic over emotion, your not CN. A LG Ranger is not an Archon. A CE Fighter is not a Demon. A CN Bard is not a Slaad. CN characters will plan. But their plans will be simple. "You two go in through the front, we'll go in through the back." "We slay the dragon, then rescue the princess, then get back to town." CN characters will harm others, but only as a last resort. A starving CN will steal bread. A CN will probably steal jewelry if they feel like it. If the mood takes them, they might push something in someone's path to trip them. CN characters, like CE characters and LN and NG, will form groups. For protection, to get a goal done, because they love or like or trust others in the group. But where a LN knight might stick with a group through thick and thin, a CN bard will be more willing to leave it if they think it's the best thing to do. CN characters _do_ rely on emotion over logic, but that doesn't mean they never use logic and can't see when they should be logical over emotional. Remember CN is PURE CHAOTIC. Remember CN is a person with a chaotic alignment who is neutral to good and evil. A CN Bard is not a Slaad.
Tyler Do'Urden 03-14-06, 12:51 AM	You watch Adult Swim? Mugen is Chaotic Neutral. Crimson Alchemist is Neutral Evil.
Parker_W 03-14-06, 01:06 AM	They aren't the same. This is obvious. The non-trivial question is whether players PLAY them the same. Some players I know use CN as an excuse to "do whatever" and squeeze in an evil anlignment in an otherwise netural/good PC group.
Leap_UK 03-14-06, 02:59 AM	Part of the problem here is the term "selfish". CN is about slacker fun for me and mine and a laughing disdain for civilised order and industry. Think "Fey" for CN. Mishchievous, and not really caring about others ("they are not my problem"), but not harmful beyond but a little bit. The "harm" of merry and pippin nicking a few carrots and potatos from farmer Maggot is CN harm. I count myself as CN :) NE is about living on the edge of civilised order for personal aggrandizement through trampling on others. Oh and Tyler Durden is CE not CN - his whole raison detre is self-hate and despair - the world where he lives is a good idea of what the abyss looks like....
Shemeska the Marauder 03-14-06, 03:18 AM	According to BoED, that means you're good. *snicker* So true. "It's not evil! I was burning the baby evil things alive! They're evil so that's a good act!" - stereotypical BoED statements
Neverwrong 03-14-06, 05:10 AM	The difference is between CN and NE, is that NE will always kill if it's the easiest thing. CN may not. Maybe he will, but hey, that's the chaos talking. NE doesn't care about people. CN cares first and foremost about himself. Like Artemis Entreri and Finder Wyvernspur, respectivly.
Silverthumb128 03-14-06, 05:32 AM	If you're NE, you have tendencies towards Law and Chaos while retaining your Evil alignment. If you're CN, you have Good and Evil tendencies, while retaining your Chaotic alignment.
Feor 03-14-06, 08:38 AM	Law vs. Chaos is strongly affected by intentions, while Good vs. Evil is strong affected by actions. A Chaotic neutral character is purely Chaotic. This doesn't mean he just randomly does stuff without any rhyme or reason, it means he's free. He does things because he wants to do them, not because he's expected to do them, or because others want him to do them. He's still intelligent, still capable of making decisions, and alot of the time he'll end up doing things that people would usually call "lawful" because he decides that that's what's most reasonable for him to do. The best example I've seen is the captured prisoner scenario. A Chaotic character could turn him loose, he's free to do so and doesn't care enough about the laws to let them dictate what he should do. BUT he's smart enough to consider the outcome of his actions. And while he may not respect the laws, he likely is aware of the fact that there are far more people enforcing them than he can reasonably expect to defeat or elude. Then there's the considerations of his good vs. evil alignment. Good character would choose to turn him in to keep him from doing evil in the future, evil character would choose to turn him in for the reward, neutral character would probably do it for a mix of both. A Neutral Evil character, on the other hand, is purely evil. This would be primarily evident in his actions rather than his intentions. He will kill, or at least consider an enemy, anyone who slights him. Where a good character might show compassion and not finish off an incapacitated opponent, an evil character would kill him just to ensure he wouldn't be bothering them in the future. Neutral Evil means that he'll normally work within the system to accomplish his evil goals, until the system can no longer serve him properly, then he has no qualms about bending or outright breaking the system to get what he wants done done.
High Octane 03-14-06, 10:29 AM	Mugen is Chaotic Neutral. Great example. And as said before, you are Chaotic Neutral as well. I actually had the idea of making a chaotic samurai class based on Mugen. But like many of my ideas, they pass when I find something more interesting. Or sneeze. So anyway, Chaotic Neutral, my favorite alignment, or one of them. Way too misunderstood. Chaotic Neutral is no more selfish than a Lawful Neutral. Another example that is sited often by myself and others is Captain Jack Sparrow. His quote "The only rules that matter are these: What a man can do, and what a man cannot do. Now I can drop you into the ocean right here, but I cannot get this ship into dock all by my lonesies so...." and he promptly drops Will back on board. He acknowledges the rules and the reasons behind them, but he does not believe in them. To a CN, rules are abhorrent really and at best will allow himself to follow guidelines. They handle each situation individually without any necessary pattern. Planning is not beyond them though, but plans are temporary. To them, everything is transitive. Ultimately, the only virtue for a CN is individuality and their only belief is to live without obligation. They don't wish harm upon others, but won't go out of their way to protect them. They dont feel obligated to help others. Often CN is used for rogues who steal. This is appropriate after all, since stealing is against the law, but a non-evil thief will take measures to stop innocent blood from being shed. At least by their own hands. Of course, especially to a CN, the definition of "innocent" can be pretty subjective.
Leap_UK 03-14-06, 10:50 AM	[An] example [of CN] that is sited often by myself and others is Captain Jack Sparrow. His quote "The only rules that matter are these: What a man can do, and what a man cannot do. Now I can drop you into the ocean right here, but I cannot get this ship into dock all by my lonesies so...." and he promptly drops Will back on board. A truly cracking character, but more TN than CN in my opinion. He is happy to be captain of a ship and that is a very non-chaotic trait. He may say "The only rules that matter are these: What a man can do, and what a man cannot do." but that does not mean he acts like that :) But like I said, a truely cracking character and a role model to children everywhere hehehehe (no really - life would be so much more fun if we had less lawyers and more sparrows :D ).
High Octane 03-14-06, 11:35 AM	A truly cracking character, but more TN than CN in my opinion. He is happy to be captain of a ship and that is a very non-chaotic trait. He may say "The only rules that matter are these: What a man can do, and what a man cannot do." but that does not mean he acts like that :) But like I said, a truely cracking character and a role model to children everywhere hehehehe (no really - life would be so much more fun if we had less lawyers and more sparrows :D ). Being a leader is not enough to warrant not being chaotic. Robin Hood is always cited as Chaotic Good and he was leader of a group of merry men. And no, they were straight. Just merry. Sparrow only wanted a crew to run the ship so he could go and do what he wanted. Chaotic is less likely to be a leader, but that doesnt mean they are never a leader. I stand by saying CN is his alignment.
Someone 03-14-06, 11:40 AM	I believe the strongest case for Jack Sparrow as CN is the following exchange: Whatsisname: "You cheated!" Jack: "Pirate?"
Kresalak 03-14-06, 11:55 AM	According to BoED, that means you're good. No, it means that you are exalted.
AkaKageWarrior 03-14-06, 12:01 PM	I think CN does not mean selfishness. CNs want to be FREE. most of all free of bonds, chains, leaders, laws and duties. concerning good or evil, they just don't care. they don't help if it involves risking their own life, but they don't kill if not defending their own lives. if someone chooses to act good or evil just as he likes, that's evil. not chaotic. just my 2 (€-) cents, ;) AKW
Koga:The ninja trick 03-14-06, 01:15 PM	90% of people The Koga asscosiates with say he's chaotic neutral, the other 10% say he's neutral evil, there is a subtle differance, let's take an example of some guy in a bar.. Some guy in a bar is drinking right? And some guy comes up to him and starts picking a fight with the drinking lad for no particular reason. (This would be a chaotic evil act on part of the bully..) Now, a neutral evil character wouldn't do anything, assuming the law forbids public brawls and would rather not get all that attention, eventualy, the oaf will grow bored with him and move onto somebody else, and being neutral evil, he's going to look onto that other victim with a sense of accomplishment as it is he or she being bullied and not the neutral evil character. A chaotic neutral character, would either blow his brains out, fight with him, SOMETHING to retaliate, a chaotic-good person would be fueled by the desire to "not allow anyone else to become victimized", but being chaotic neutral, he thinks in the hear and now, and figures "who the hell is this guy to comeup to me and start something? I'll have him eating out of a straw, that'll teach him respect.." Chaotic neutral like all chaotic people rely mostly upon emotions to guide them, they don't care about making a scene, or being arrogant, (not to be confused with lawful arrogance..) The differance between chaotic neutral and neutral evil lies in the differance between all alingments.. Motivation.. Action.. And Conclusion.. His motivation is neutral, he's protecting himself from another, even on a mathamatical scale that's a one for one division, the action is chaotic, because it's tottaly independant of what the laws state (or don't state) and completely disregards anything but the act of getting back at the foe, the conclusion is also chaotic (for obvious reasons) and perhaps good for getting rid of a bad-seed.. Thus, in that little scenario, we see a chaotic neutral person, and like most of them, they lean towards chaotic good but have neither the patience nor the will to pursue justice.. EDIT: Jack Sparrow is a good example of chaotic neutral leaning towards chaotic evil, not malicous enough to be evil, but hardly "good".
green_yawgmoth 03-14-06, 02:21 PM	First sblock of my sig will help you in this matter. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Leap_UK 03-14-06, 03:52 PM	Being a leader is not enough to warrant not being chaotic. Robin Hood is always cited as Chaotic Good and he was leader of a group of merry men. And no, they were straight. Just merry. Sparrow only wanted a crew to run the ship so he could go and do what he wanted. Chaotic is less likely to be a leader, but that doesnt mean they are never a leader. I stand by saying CN is his alignment. A leader is one thing but a captain is something else. A leader can lead by example but a captain organises and directs - not a chaotic trait at all. To be CN you need to cut all those kinds of binds and just dance through life ever following your nose for adventure and embracing the sheer unpredictablity of such a life. In many ways Sparrow seems CN but his being a capt stops him.... :cool:
Darkuwa 03-14-06, 04:28 PM	Lawful - In accordance with the strictures of a higher power or system... Neutral - In a logical and balanced way... Chaotic - By whatever means necessary... Good - ...improve the situation of innocents and decent people. Neutral - ...maintain balance and justice. Evil - ...increase your own power and improve your situation. Both your nuetrals arent very neutral. I would suggest you change the lawful chaotic axis neutral to "In the easiest way possible..." and the good evil axis neutral to "Do whatever you please."
Koga:The ninja trick 03-14-06, 06:04 PM	It seemed right on the dot to The Koga, though neutral should not have part in the good/evil axis, as in the right situation, a neutral character is either good or evil, but is either movitated by lawful, chaotic, or "neutral" tendicies.. GURPS has a much better alignment system, ironic considering alingment plays a less significant role in GURPS..
Feor 03-14-06, 06:38 PM	The chaotic character being bullied in the bar would not automatically, retaliate at the guy. The evil character is actually more likely to do so, but he'd probably be underhanded about it, rather than just turning to him and attacking. He would ignore the bully, then slip the bartender an extra gold to put something special in the guy's drink. A Chaotic character isn't stupid, he's not just going to just fly off the handle and duke it out with the guy. If he thinks he could take the guy, AND he's in a bad mood, then yeah, maybe. If the guy is bigger than him, he'll probably let it slide for self-preservation's sake. If he is in a good mood he'll likely just laugh it off. The key is that he's not obligated to follow any of the above paths. A Lawful character would be, and a neutral character is to a lesser extent. a Lawful Good character would feel obligated to try and teach the bully a lesson, a lawful evil character might feel obligated to not let the buffon make a fool of him. (though again, more likely an underhanded approach for an evil character) a neutral character would, if there were laws against barfighting, not fight until the guy pushed him beyond a certain breaking point. At which point he'd choose to let his chaotic side take over and beat the guy into the floor. Where his breaking point is would be mostly dependant on his placement along the good/evil axis.
Tyler Do'Urden 03-14-06, 07:33 PM	Great example. And as said before, you are Chaotic Neutral as well.Excuse me, but I'm true neutral inclusive (that's true neutral as the sum of all alignments rather than the absense of any; yes, that means I'm evil sometimes). My namesake however is a modern character with serious emotional problems, so I don't think describing him with alignments is necessarily worth it. And my other namesake is Chaotic Good or some [poop]. I put this here because I don't wanna spoil the movie for anybody. The thing about Tyler Durden's alignment... depending on which parts of the movie you've seen, he could be anything. Taking care of "Jack" makes him seem good. His ultimate goal of a peacful humanity free of technology makes him seem good. Setting down the rules for Fight Club and oganizing Project Mayhem make him seem lawful. Getting into a car accident just to prove a point makes him seem chaotic. "The buildings are empty. Security, maintenance, all our people. We're not killing anyone, man, we're settin' 'em free!" Chaotic Good. "Bob is dead. They shot him in the head." ::shrug:: "You wanna make an omelet, ya gotta break some eggs." Lawful Evil. He's just a weird, complicated character who doesn't really fit into any one alignement set completely. The narrator is probably true neutral exclusive like most people, but Tyler is most probably true neutral inclusive, with strong chaotic tendencies. You know what the problem is? We're trying to define alignments using words so that we have universal definitions. But a lot of words don't mean exactly the same thing for everybody, so it's impossible to use them to come up with definitions everyone can agree with. It's a lot easier (and a lot easier to back up) if rather than trying to define the alignments, you go into works of fiction and pull up examples of the alignments and say "he's Lawful," or whatever. Plus a lot of people seem to view alignments as being a lot more fragile than they should be. The whole "Okay, you stepped on a bug, so you're evil now" mentality with no regard to circumstance or remorse. Jiin and Mugen are the epitomy of Order vs. Chaos. Fighting style, personality, the whole manner in which they approach life is completely at odds... and yet they use those opposing viewpoints to come to the same conclusion (i.e. guy with sword protecting Fu). Zolf J. Kimbley, the Crimson Alchemist (the guy that blows people up) is Neutral Evil. He as much as admitted that his only real interest is blowing people up. He enjoys it and he has no regard whatsoever for his victims. He has just enough of an appreciation for the rules to know that you can't just go around blowing up everyone (unless ordered to). He's just an evil, evil son of a [motherless goat]. He does whatever he thinks he can get away with because he enjoys killing people through alchemy. Watch Samurai Champloo and Fullmetal Alchemist for a while. You'll see what I'm talking about.
Rocketboy13 03-14-06, 08:08 PM	Here are some more general examples so as to alleviate confusion, hopefully these choices will not touch off any controversy themselves. Chaotic Neutral: Mugen (Samurai Champloo), Tyler Durden (Fight Club), Mr. Mxyzptlk (the Superman Villian), Hippies (in general), The Incredable Hulk (the big green guy in marvel comics), Homer Simpson (The fat, yellow, bald guy), Wile E. Coyote (the toon), Tazmanian Devil (also a toon) Neutral Evil: Bullseye (Daredevil Villian), Ultraman (and the rest of the Crime Syndicate, from DC), Dracula (both the historical and fictional), Lex Luthor (more recently, in the past he has been LE), Stewey (Baby from Family Guy) Chaotic Evil: Osama Bin Laden (The terrorist), Jeffery Daumer (The cannabalistic serial killer), Psycho (Owner of the Bates motel), Ted Bundy (Serial Killer) True Neutral: The Swiss banking industry :P
Koga:The ninja trick 03-14-06, 10:51 PM	Watch Samurai Champloo and Fullmetal Alchemist for a while. You'll see what I'm talking about. The Koga's favorite character was always Scar.. Ed/Al we're far too whiney, and everybody in the military was either a screw loose or an evil bastard. (Or both..) The Koga could agree with the above post, though again, his favorite loony toon was always Slowpoke. Guns and black magick, that's REAL Mexican for ya'! :P
Rocketboy13 03-14-06, 11:21 PM	The Koga's favorite character was always Scar.. Ed/Al we're far too whiney, and everybody in the military was either a screw loose or an evil bastard. (Or both..) Scar was more brooding than whining, and he blew up peoples' brains, I think he is pretty Chaotic Neutral. The Sins follow some other patterns Lawful Evil: Pride (He is a dictator of a militant state that wages perpetual war), Sloth (Right hand woman to Pride) Neutral Evil: Dante (The Leader but isn't this traditionally a guy's name?) Chaotic Evil: Wrath (Lunatic), Envy (Lunatic), Glutonny (Lunatic that is driven by instinct) Chaotic Neutral: Greed (Out for me), Lust (Just wants to live again) Lawful Good: Mustang (pre coup), Hughes (pre-death), Armstrong (Pre rebelion) Neutral Good: The Elric Brothers Chaotic Good: Azumi :D
Athos 03-15-06, 09:32 AM	I think the big problem here is where putting to much wiegth behind a single action. "well he's the captin that show some form of lawfulness so he can't be chaotic" is wrong. Every one at one time or another shows forms of all the alinments, I for example consider my self chaotic good. I have a respect for life and good will towards other, yet when I look at rules I decide which I think are worth following and which are just plain stupid and to be ignored. On the other hand I'm not going to say I've never stolen something from my workplace while I worked. That is an evil act, or at best not good, so has my alinment now changed to CN... if everyones alinmet changed based on every action they made none of us would be able to hold an alinmet of anything but Neutral. CN - I respect human life, but my own(and those close to me) over all others. I don't think that far ahead, and I do what I like, despite what others say. NE - The laws are nice, should they suit me, if they dont I do as I wish. My life takes priority over all others, not that I wouldn't help others if it helps me.
Leap_UK 03-15-06, 12:08 PM	I think the big problem here is where putting to much wiegth behind a single action. "well he's the captin that show some form of lawfulness so he can't be chaotic" is wrong. Every one at one time or another shows forms of all the alinments, I for example consider my self chaotic good. I have a respect for life and good will towards other, yet when I look at rules I decide which I think are worth following and which are just plain stupid and to be ignored. On the other hand I'm not going to say I've never stolen something from my workplace while I worked. That is an evil act, or at best not good, so has my alinment now changed to CN... if everyones alinmet changed based on every action they made none of us would be able to hold an alinmet of anything but Neutral. CN - I respect human life, but my own(and those close to me) over all others. I don't think that far ahead, and I do what I like, despite what others say. NE - The laws are nice, should they suit me, if they dont I do as I wish. My life takes priority over all others, not that I wouldn't help others if it helps me. The whole thing of being a captain is anti-chaotic Athos. It’s the creation of a stable hierarchy toward the pursuit of a stable goal. That is not in the slightest bit chaotic. Similarly with your own example, you say I for example consider my self chaotic good. I have a respect for life and good will towards other, yet when I look at rules I decide which I think are worth following and which are just plain stupid and to be ignored that is a more NG (I’m not going to address the “good” part :) ) in that you accept rules. A chaotic ignores the whole notion and simply acts on spontaneous intuition that puts them inherently opposed to stable structures like governments and institutions. I count myself as CN (moved from NG in the last year) in that I find myself pretty much at odds with stable structures of any kind. Holding down a job is damn near impossible as the whole notion of discipline to the clock is something I laugh at (which tends to get managers backs up). Its not that I am contrary but just that I ignore the rules and do as I see fit :) which can included thinking “Why TF?!!! Its sunny, I’m off to the beach!” :D
DDogwood 03-15-06, 01:05 PM	The difference between Chaotic Neutral and Neutral Evil is actually pretty simple - a Chaotic Neutral person is a basically decent person, who doesn't especially want bad things to happen to other people, but dislikes rules and doesn't feel inclined to obey them - he doesn't think other people should have to obey them, either, but he doesn't care enough to become a freedom fighter. A Neutral Evil person is not a decent person, and doesn't care what harm befalls others as long as it's good for him. He might not obey rules, but he thinks that they should still apply to other people. A Chaotic Neutral person might not stop to help you if you were bleeding in the street, but he wouldn't hurt you, either. A Neutral Evil person would check your pockets for change and steal your boots.
AkaKageWarrior 03-15-06, 02:40 PM	The difference between Chaotic Neutral and Neutral Evil is actually pretty simple - a Chaotic Neutral person is a basically decent person, who doesn't especially want bad things to happen to other people, but dislikes rules and doesn't feel inclined to obey them - he doesn't think other people should have to obey them, either, but he doesn't care enough to become a freedom fighter. A Neutral Evil person is not a decent person, and doesn't care what harm befalls others as long as it's good for him. He might not obey rules, but he thinks that they should still apply to other people. A Chaotic Neutral person might not stop to help you if you were bleeding in the street, but he wouldn't hurt you, either. A Neutral Evil person would check your pockets for change and steal your boots. very good example! but I made some online alignment tests recently, and that shows me that this alignment stuff is ******** and there rather should only be codes of conduct for certain classes. the latest 3 tests I made (and I answered trying to be honest as possible ;) ) gave me the following alignments: lawful good true neutral (that was the WotC test) chaotic good so what? as the PHB says, an alignment should be a role-playing help, not a straitjacket (except for paladins and clerics of course!). cause it's to undefined anyway. AKW
Andrew_980 03-15-06, 02:40 PM	Jack sparrow: he is a chaotic captian, he doesn't so much organize as "you know what to do if you want any pay" chaotics still have some organization but it is more sloppy and based on indeviduals working for the same goal more that a team working together Cartoons: Jiin and Mugen would be good examples of lawfull/chaotic, and both are a little ambiguis about good/evl. As far as full metal goes, i see the crimson alchemist as CE he just loves the chaos and pain, but he is not stupid either. He knows he has to toe the line to maintain his freedom, but has no respect for leaders. Scar is LE, genocide against alchemists for "breaking gods laws" and pure hate driven revenge.
Koga:The ninja trick 03-15-06, 02:48 PM	Some viewpoints from The Koga. Chaotic good: Feels like shedding tears for everyone and everything, but there's no time. Chaotic neutral: Feels like shedding tears for everyone and everything, but doesn't trust anyone or anything enough to, and sometimes wants to make others cry cause of it. Chaotic evil: Feels like shedding tears for himself, so he makes others cry in retaliation. Lawful good: Values honour, traidtion, and good faith, and wants to implement those into community, so nobody has to feel an ounce of pain. Lawful neutral: Values honour, tradition, and good faith above all else, and wants to implement those into the community, regardless of what it does. Lawful neutral: Values honour, tradition, and good faith, cause it's a great benefactor and lowers to probability of betrayel. Screw the community. Neutral good: What can I do to please? Neutral evil: Feed me, love me, shut the hell up! Pure Neutral: The ballots are confusing!
Andrew_980 03-15-06, 03:08 PM	my take on it CG: freedom for the good of all, will fight for the freedom of others, order oppresses people freedom is good CN:freedom is all that matters, freedom to make your own choices. Others will be free if they want it. CE:freedom to do what you want and if you hurt someone it is their fault for being weak, freedom from consequnces, only the strong deserve to be free. LG: order helps protect, tradition is good for a strong society LN: order and tradition exist to be followed, it is just what you do LE: order exists to promote the strong and smart and put those undeserving in their place.
Koga:The ninja trick 03-15-06, 05:17 PM	Heh, by Andrew's standards The Koga is chaotic neutral leaning toward chaotic evil.. XP
Rocketboy13 03-15-06, 09:41 PM	This is my look at things. Good: Wants to help others, and themselves. And may sacrifice themselves for others. (What good is money if I have no one to share it with.) :angel: Neutral: Wants to help themselves. (I want to be prosperous... thats it... please leave...now) :whatsthis Evil: Wants to help themselves, at the expence of others. (What good is being prosperous if you can't lord it over someone?) :devil: Lawful: Errect and maintain structure. (Thank god for speed limits, without them we would get ourselves killed.) :teach: Neutral: Respect structure, but bend it if necessary. (Speed limits. It won't hurt if I go just a few miles over the limit.) :shifty: Chaotic: Defie or take down the stracture, it is nothing but trouble. (Speed limits. F-that. People will be happy we they see these signs have been taken down.) :dancin: There are other variations, but these seem to be the core principles. :king:
Leap_UK 03-16-06, 04:23 AM	Good folks look at the starving in Africa and think "What can we do to help them? They must be helped." Neutral folks ignore the starving in Africa. They dont wish them harm but they are not interested in helping either; they save their sympathy for "me and mine". Evil folks look at the starving in Africa and either laugh, or figure out a way to root all the charity from good folks into their own pockets. Lawful folks look at the world and say "Ooo its scary. We are all exposed there, and everything is untidy and you are so open to others! It needs order to bring security and neatness, through hardwork to keep the chaos down." Chaotic folks look at the world and embrace the untidy, exposed and largely playful nature of life, ignoring the sad little lawfuls demands to be good little workers in the bringing of security. Neutral folks are an illusion :)
Parker_W 03-16-06, 05:41 AM	Tyler Durden has been mentioned as a paragon of CN, and I completely agree; Tyler Durden is the PARAGON chaotic neutral; he does exactly what his whims dictate (although he isn't insane and he has long term plans, remember CN doesnt mean stupid or unwise), he is totally against any form of control, he is a true free spirit. Yet, he isn't neutral evil. He isn't cruel, nor is he altruistic. He isn't selfish at the expense of everyone else (a requisite for NE), he openly demonstrates some concern for other people's wellbeing (but yet again, he is not good or altruistic). A perfect example of this "concern" would be the convenience store hold-up. A good person would never do such a thing, and an evil person would have probably just killed the man (for fear of being reported or just for pleasure), yet Tyler let him go, putting Tyler is a middle area with respect to alignment. This is perfect CN.
Leap_UK 03-16-06, 09:51 AM	Tyler Durden has been mentioned as a paragon of CN, and I completely agree; Tyler Durden is the PARAGON chaotic neutral; he does exactly what his whims dictate (although he isn't insane and he has long term plans, remember CN doesnt mean stupid or unwise), he is totally against any form of control, he is a true free spirit. Yet, he isn't neutral evil. He isn't cruel, nor is he altruistic. He isn't selfish at the expense of everyone else (a requisite for NE), he openly demonstrates some concern for other people's wellbeing (but yet again, he is not good or altruistic). A perfect example of this "concern" would be the convenience store hold-up. A good person would never do such a thing, and an evil person would have probably just killed the man (for fear of being reported or just for pleasure), yet Tyler let him go, putting Tyler is a middle area with respect to alignment. This is perfect CN. Nope, he is a cruel unpredictable tosser whose mantra on life is "self-destruction, now that might be where its at". Any "good" he seems to do is simply in opposition to a LE society. He is NOT Chaotic Neutral, he is Chaotic Evil.
malignor 03-16-06, 10:08 AM	Neutral Evil "Rules are meant to be followed... when convenient, or when I can't get away with the crime. When people suffer through my actions it's almost enjoyable. I like to trick them, watch them squirm, play them against each other and I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty to cover up an indiscretion. Though generally I prefer to get someone else dirty their hands. Why risk myself when I can get someone else to do the messy job, and have them under my thumb for the murder of some nobody? But alot of the time, it's better to use people than to kill them outright. Play with their heads, do whatever, even if you're committing a crime or breaking your oath or whatever. Sometimes laws are useful, but alot of the time they mean nothing." Chaotic Evil "Laws are a load of bull. People should really rely on what they want and how they feel, because we were given emotions and instincts for a reason. Personally, I'd like to tear down a courthouse and teach the stuck up people how to party. If you want to dance in the street and eat croutons, don't get in line behind me because there's plenty of street and plenty of croutons for everyone, and nobody should have to wait in line. If I like someone, or if it's easy to do, I like helping people... makes me feel good about myself. If I don't like someone or they screw me around, I make them pay for it, usually with a double helping of what they gave me. Life is about the living. Don't let rules or honor or any other delusion get in your way. Remember that."
High Octane 03-16-06, 11:01 AM	CG- FREEDOM! LG- HONOR! NG- COMPASSION! CE- DESTRUCTION! LE- SERVITUDE! NE- AQUISITION! CN- INDIVIDUALITY! LN- TRADITION! TN- BALANCE! NN- ......whatever.
rbingham2000 03-16-06, 11:22 AM	I can't believe that no one in this thread mentioned Han Solo from the first Star Wars, because he is exactly the kind of guy that springs to mind when I think of a Chaotic Neutral character. Han, right before he had his change of heart at the end of the movie, was in it for the money and in it for himself. He wasn't above cutting his losses and getting the hell out of Dodge if things got too hot for him, even if it hurt others in the process (like the time he dumped his last shipment when he got boarded by an Imperial cruiser, which got him in trouble with Jabba), he wasn't above shooting first (like what happened with Greedo at the cantina), and he didn't relish the idea of sticking his neck out for others, especially against odds that he considered suicidal (as he explained in no uncertain terms as Luke and the Rebels were preparing to take on the Death Star). The detractors of such a character would call him a "mercenary," or a "coward," along with even more unflattering terms. And many of them would indeed lump a Chaotic Neutral character with the more Neutral Evil type of character, especially if the character decides to cut his losses and run off at a time when others are counting on him. But a Chaotic Neutral character isn't going to go out of his way to be mean and vicious to other people or make them miserable like a NE character would. He just doesn't much care one way or the other.
Leap_UK 03-16-06, 11:29 AM	Actually Han made a big show of being CN but considering (in the back story) he gave up his military career to save a Wookiee (is it sad that I can spell that? ;) ) I'd say he was Good all the time; starting out as NG, becoming CN with strong Good tendencies (hoping to find a way back) in his smuggling period, then returning the NG when he became responsible "General" Solo. Oh gods I am such an anorak :(
Leap_UK 03-16-06, 11:36 AM	The best example of a CN character that I have seen is Crocodile Dundee (1st film, prior to going to NewYork). He upsticks as he wants, hunts crocs, is not bothered if someone goes skippy-hunting, has no desire for a "voice" on "the bomb" or whatever, and has no interest in what day it is or how old he is. Watch the first part of the film and you will understand CN :)