Code of conduct [Archive] - Wizards Community

Code of conduct [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HunterBlack
09-26-05, 05:10 PM It is no secret that the unwritten rule to D&D is that you don't steal from the party. I am having a moral problem right now with this rule. I run a Rogue/Assassin. The rest of the party is a bunch of do gooders. I have an opportunity to get at the treasure that we have been after for a while now before the others and I am wondering if I should do it. I could get to the treasure vault b4 the rest of the party and skim off the top this way they would never know that I was ever there or took anything. On the one hand I don't want to do it because of the moral issue but on the other I do because I wouldn't be playing the character properly if I didn't.

What are your thoughts?
Thailfi
09-26-05, 05:30 PM There is a moral code not to steal from party members? Maybe I should tell the rest of my playgroup of 25 years. At one time or another we have all had characters that at least skimmed off the top from the party. We have a running "hey, this is my Grandmothers dagger, I just haven't fought with it until now" joke concerning a a thief with a 4 wisdom that stole from the party. Now "my Grandmother's dagger" is code for taking from the party.

I do have one question. If everyone else in the partyis a bunch of do-gooders, why did they let you in the party?
HunterBlack
09-26-05, 05:40 PM I have no idea. I guess it is because they really wanted a rogue and I really wanted to play a rogue/assassin. the party doesn't know I am evil or even an assassin they just think I am a ordinary rogue but are curious how I can drop a guard with one prick from my grandmothers dagger. I use the undetectable alignment so they can't figure it out. I am secretative and decietful also due to my diety being Vecna and he is all about secrets and lies.
Black Kitten
09-26-05, 05:42 PM I have no idea. I guess it is because they really wanted a rogue and I really wanted to play a rogue/assassin. the party doesn't know I am evil or even an assassin they just think I am a ordinary rogue but are curious how I can drop a guard with one prick from my grandmothers dagger. I use the undetectable alignment so they can't figure it out. I am secretative and decietful also due to my diety being Vecna and he is all about secrets and lies.

Then especially DON'T steal from your party. Best way to blow your cover IMHO.
Ogre4Hire
09-26-05, 05:43 PM Actually, taking a few extra percentage points on the side has been a time honored tradition for rogues (here I am using rogue in the unsavory character sense, not merely the 3E name for the thief) since the game began. Just don't take too much (a few gems or coins here or there), and don't take stuff from the other players after the loot's been split between everyone.
Godzilla
09-26-05, 06:19 PM You could steal the thing that you're after, and claim it was a gift from someone, and when the entire party gets to the treasure vault to find the treasure missing, make up a lie that someone must have come in here before you, but don't make it obvious you're trying to cover anything up.
Or you could get some random person to do it, pretending you're going to give them a special reward for getting it for you, then kill them when they return to you, hide the treasure, and when the entire party gets to the treasure vault to find the treasure missing, make up a lie that someone must have come in here before you, but don't make it obvious you're trying to cover anything up.
A third option would be that you think of something more creative than I did.
Some_call_me_Tim
09-26-05, 06:33 PM The first thing to consider is the other players. Are they mature enough to make the distinction between in-character actions and you the player? If not, don't do it as it will only lead to hard feelings and a ruined game.

The second thing to consider is why you as a player want to steal from the rest of the party. Be honest with yourself and don't steal just because you can or you think it is "in-character." If you want to do it to annoy or get back at the other players don't do it. You are being immature and it will only lead to the same hard feelings and ruined game as above.

Lastly, consult with the DM in private about your desires. He will have the final say. The DM might not to want to deal with added intra-party conflict that will undoubtably arise when you get caught.

Now, if you've read this far I will assume both you and your group are mature enough to have a little extra role-playing fun. Be warned you will have to deal with the consequences at some point.

You must never let the other players know what you are doing, even out of character. Perhaps meet with the DM at some other time/place, come early/leave late, email, IM, etc.

The other PCs view your character as a trusted friend. They will be angered by your betrayal and rightly so. Be prepared to lose your character, possibly being killed by the party, tossed in prison, or at the very least expelled to become an NPC. How many people in the real world continue to hang out with 'friends' who steal from them.

It's possible that a band of do-gooders would require the specialized skills of someone familiar with the seedy underbelly of society, but they should be watching you closely, very closely. To continue the charade as long as possible stop using abilities they don't know you have.

As another poster said you don't want to be caught for stealing a mere trinket. For the most part just go along with the party division of treasure, supplement by picking up a few baubles from the local rubes (NPCs). Wait for a big score. If you get away with it great, if not have another character handy.

If you are interested in the PvP action consider talking to DM about you being a plant for the local assassin's guild keeping an eye on the do-gooders. As such you don't want to do anything to draw attention to yourself. Won't the party be suprised to find a traitor in their midst. This will almost surely require you to sacrifice your character for the good of the story, if that sound appealling all the better.

I've played such a game, way back in first edition, where I was a gnome illusionist/thief. I always kept up the facade of being a illusionist and never openly used by thief abilities. The other players had no idea, only the DM was in on it. I racked up some extra gold along the way, taking some of the juicier treasure for myself.

As the game wore on, the other players began to suspect something was not quite right. They even leaned on the DM for being so stingy with the gold and items. The DM and I created an alter ego for my thief that began to taunt the party. It eventually became a focus of the campaign to find out who this "shadow" was and to deal with him once and for all.

Finally, it was the night in which the true identity of the "shadow" was revealed. I wish I had a camera to capture the look on the party's faces when it was reavealed that I was in fact the "shadow."

At this point, my character became an NPC and I took over as the NPC who had revealed the "shadow." It was just a few sessions latter that the shadow was finally eliminated for all time.

Of course, the other players never really trusted my characters after that point (so only expect this trick to work once with any group of players) and they were also a little mad at the DM for allowing this, but it really sticks out in my mind as one of the most memorable games we played. Eventually the other players forgave me and the DM and they admitted that it was a fun and surprising climax to a major plot line that wasn't even scripted when we began.

As another cautionary tale, see the posts regarding a Bard you got vaporized when he tried to pilfer a book from the party when no one was looking. When you elect to go this route count on not having any back-up when things might go horribly wrong.
Novacat
09-26-05, 07:57 PM The only time it would be irresponsible (of the player, as opposed to the character) to steal from a party member is if the target player (again, as opposed to the character) was going to be personally offended by it. Then again, if someone is that attached to their character, I would call it risky to be playing with them at all.
HunterBlack
09-26-05, 08:33 PM Well in this scenario I know there is going to be lots of treasure in that vault loads of weapons and items. I don't plan on taking any of the items just the money. The items that would be of use to me would not be much use to anyone else anyway so it works. I actually want to do it becaue it seems like a really fun thing to do. I am actually more excited about the idea of covering my tracks and doing something that they don't know about more then the treasure to be honest. I know the group of guys I play with won't like it but are good enough lads to be able to deal with it. Well one of them might cry but the others will be cool with it.
weasel fierce
09-27-05, 01:18 AM Stealing from the party just because "rogue's steal" usually just results in your character dying.

Skimming off some goodies, when noone is watching, is fair game, IMO. Just dont make it too obvious, or too much
KJW
09-27-05, 07:54 AM Yeah, if you steal from the party be prepared to lose your character. Maybe not death, the do-gooders may just strip you of all your belongings and dump you in the wilderness. There are plenty of other people to steal from besides your own party, also you can part them from their money with games of chance, bets, and so forth (all rigged) that forces them to willing give you their money. Its more work and takes more cunning, but its a better way to go.
green_yawgmoth
09-27-05, 09:01 AM There is a moral code not to steal from party members?IME, It's more of a addendum to the "try to make characters that won't want to eviscerate each other in the first session" rule. If your character steals as much as he can and ends up with 500% more stuff than everyone else, the moment the other PCs catch him taking treasure that should be split up, there's a good chance he's gonna die in the next dungeon; one way or another.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Thailfi
09-27-05, 09:39 AM Outright theft from party members usually leads to problems and in your case would be an unnessary risk if you want to maintain your unsavory character's place in the party. It is always bad to steal in a way that is likely to cause confrontation. You need to be sly about it.

Our party mage was chaotic neutral and due to necessity we had to trust him to identify the magical booty. One monster we defeated had a crown that augmented spellcasting ability as well as allow for some kind of reptile control. This same creature had a magical ring of protection +2. Well, the quick thinking mage identified the item and told the party that it was a companion piece to the crown and boosted the reptile control abilities. Since the item was on the same creature, the party bought this explanation and let the mage keep both items.

A thief getting to the treasure first and pocketing a few gems is almost to be expected, just make sure you do when you can't really be caught. Grandmother's dagger was more of a comical example of a painfully scatterbrained female thief pocketing a relatively minor item that she probably would have gotten anyway. The party was more amused than anything and the player of the thief pretty much knew that was going to be the party reaction.

Players have to balance playing their characters with party harmony. I guess that is a lot tougher if you are gaming with strangers. I wouldn't know. I only game with close friends and we can pretty much gauge each others reaction in advance.
CzarGarrett
09-27-05, 09:45 AM Unless you, as the rogue, were taking specific items that were known to be in there, or something that another party member really wanted/needed, then there's no problem.

If your group is going into a vault to get the Maltese Falcon, and the group knows that there is the Jade Tiger in the vault as well, don't snatch that early. But the Silvered Cup of Ulong, no one knows about, so that's fair game to grab early.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HunterBlack 09-26-05, 05:10 PM	It is no secret that the unwritten rule to D&D is that you don't steal from the party. I am having a moral problem right now with this rule. I run a Rogue/Assassin. The rest of the party is a bunch of do gooders. I have an opportunity to get at the treasure that we have been after for a while now before the others and I am wondering if I should do it. I could get to the treasure vault b4 the rest of the party and skim off the top this way they would never know that I was ever there or took anything. On the one hand I don't want to do it because of the moral issue but on the other I do because I wouldn't be playing the character properly if I didn't. What are your thoughts?
Thailfi 09-26-05, 05:30 PM	There is a moral code not to steal from party members? Maybe I should tell the rest of my playgroup of 25 years. At one time or another we have all had characters that at least skimmed off the top from the party. We have a running "hey, this is my Grandmothers dagger, I just haven't fought with it until now" joke concerning a a thief with a 4 wisdom that stole from the party. Now "my Grandmother's dagger" is code for taking from the party. I do have one question. If everyone else in the partyis a bunch of do-gooders, why did they let you in the party?
HunterBlack 09-26-05, 05:40 PM	I have no idea. I guess it is because they really wanted a rogue and I really wanted to play a rogue/assassin. the party doesn't know I am evil or even an assassin they just think I am a ordinary rogue but are curious how I can drop a guard with one prick from my grandmothers dagger. I use the undetectable alignment so they can't figure it out. I am secretative and decietful also due to my diety being Vecna and he is all about secrets and lies.
Black Kitten 09-26-05, 05:42 PM	I have no idea. I guess it is because they really wanted a rogue and I really wanted to play a rogue/assassin. the party doesn't know I am evil or even an assassin they just think I am a ordinary rogue but are curious how I can drop a guard with one prick from my grandmothers dagger. I use the undetectable alignment so they can't figure it out. I am secretative and decietful also due to my diety being Vecna and he is all about secrets and lies. Then especially DON'T steal from your party. Best way to blow your cover IMHO.
Ogre4Hire 09-26-05, 05:43 PM	Actually, taking a few extra percentage points on the side has been a time honored tradition for rogues (here I am using rogue in the unsavory character sense, not merely the 3E name for the thief) since the game began. Just don't take too much (a few gems or coins here or there), and don't take stuff from the other players after the loot's been split between everyone.
Godzilla 09-26-05, 06:19 PM	You could steal the thing that you're after, and claim it was a gift from someone, and when the entire party gets to the treasure vault to find the treasure missing, make up a lie that someone must have come in here before you, but don't make it obvious you're trying to cover anything up. Or you could get some random person to do it, pretending you're going to give them a special reward for getting it for you, then kill them when they return to you, hide the treasure, and when the entire party gets to the treasure vault to find the treasure missing, make up a lie that someone must have come in here before you, but don't make it obvious you're trying to cover anything up. A third option would be that you think of something more creative than I did.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-26-05, 06:33 PM	The first thing to consider is the other players. Are they mature enough to make the distinction between in-character actions and you the player? If not, don't do it as it will only lead to hard feelings and a ruined game. The second thing to consider is why you as a player want to steal from the rest of the party. Be honest with yourself and don't steal just because you can or you think it is "in-character." If you want to do it to annoy or get back at the other players don't do it. You are being immature and it will only lead to the same hard feelings and ruined game as above. Lastly, consult with the DM in private about your desires. He will have the final say. The DM might not to want to deal with added intra-party conflict that will undoubtably arise when you get caught. Now, if you've read this far I will assume both you and your group are mature enough to have a little extra role-playing fun. Be warned you will have to deal with the consequences at some point. You must never let the other players know what you are doing, even out of character. Perhaps meet with the DM at some other time/place, come early/leave late, email, IM, etc. The other PCs view your character as a trusted friend. They will be angered by your betrayal and rightly so. Be prepared to lose your character, possibly being killed by the party, tossed in prison, or at the very least expelled to become an NPC. How many people in the real world continue to hang out with 'friends' who steal from them. It's possible that a band of do-gooders would require the specialized skills of someone familiar with the seedy underbelly of society, but they should be watching you closely, very closely. To continue the charade as long as possible stop using abilities they don't know you have. As another poster said you don't want to be caught for stealing a mere trinket. For the most part just go along with the party division of treasure, supplement by picking up a few baubles from the local rubes (NPCs). Wait for a big score. If you get away with it great, if not have another character handy. If you are interested in the PvP action consider talking to DM about you being a plant for the local assassin's guild keeping an eye on the do-gooders. As such you don't want to do anything to draw attention to yourself. Won't the party be suprised to find a traitor in their midst. This will almost surely require you to sacrifice your character for the good of the story, if that sound appealling all the better. I've played such a game, way back in first edition, where I was a gnome illusionist/thief. I always kept up the facade of being a illusionist and never openly used by thief abilities. The other players had no idea, only the DM was in on it. I racked up some extra gold along the way, taking some of the juicier treasure for myself. As the game wore on, the other players began to suspect something was not quite right. They even leaned on the DM for being so stingy with the gold and items. The DM and I created an alter ego for my thief that began to taunt the party. It eventually became a focus of the campaign to find out who this "shadow" was and to deal with him once and for all. Finally, it was the night in which the true identity of the "shadow" was revealed. I wish I had a camera to capture the look on the party's faces when it was reavealed that I was in fact the "shadow." At this point, my character became an NPC and I took over as the NPC who had revealed the "shadow." It was just a few sessions latter that the shadow was finally eliminated for all time. Of course, the other players never really trusted my characters after that point (so only expect this trick to work once with any group of players) and they were also a little mad at the DM for allowing this, but it really sticks out in my mind as one of the most memorable games we played. Eventually the other players forgave me and the DM and they admitted that it was a fun and surprising climax to a major plot line that wasn't even scripted when we began. As another cautionary tale, see the posts regarding a Bard you got vaporized when he tried to pilfer a book from the party when no one was looking. When you elect to go this route count on not having any back-up when things might go horribly wrong.
Novacat 09-26-05, 07:57 PM	The only time it would be irresponsible (of the player, as opposed to the character) to steal from a party member is if the target player (again, as opposed to the character) was going to be personally offended by it. Then again, if someone is that attached to their character, I would call it risky to be playing with them at all.
HunterBlack 09-26-05, 08:33 PM	Well in this scenario I know there is going to be lots of treasure in that vault loads of weapons and items. I don't plan on taking any of the items just the money. The items that would be of use to me would not be much use to anyone else anyway so it works. I actually want to do it becaue it seems like a really fun thing to do. I am actually more excited about the idea of covering my tracks and doing something that they don't know about more then the treasure to be honest. I know the group of guys I play with won't like it but are good enough lads to be able to deal with it. Well one of them might cry but the others will be cool with it.
weasel fierce 09-27-05, 01:18 AM	Stealing from the party just because "rogue's steal" usually just results in your character dying. Skimming off some goodies, when noone is watching, is fair game, IMO. Just dont make it too obvious, or too much
KJW 09-27-05, 07:54 AM	Yeah, if you steal from the party be prepared to lose your character. Maybe not death, the do-gooders may just strip you of all your belongings and dump you in the wilderness. There are plenty of other people to steal from besides your own party, also you can part them from their money with games of chance, bets, and so forth (all rigged) that forces them to willing give you their money. Its more work and takes more cunning, but its a better way to go.
green_yawgmoth 09-27-05, 09:01 AM	There is a moral code not to steal from party members?IME, It's more of a addendum to the "try to make characters that won't want to eviscerate each other in the first session" rule. If your character steals as much as he can and ends up with 500% more stuff than everyone else, the moment the other PCs catch him taking treasure that should be split up, there's a good chance he's gonna die in the next dungeon; one way or another. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Thailfi 09-27-05, 09:39 AM	Outright theft from party members usually leads to problems and in your case would be an unnessary risk if you want to maintain your unsavory character's place in the party. It is always bad to steal in a way that is likely to cause confrontation. You need to be sly about it. Our party mage was chaotic neutral and due to necessity we had to trust him to identify the magical booty. One monster we defeated had a crown that augmented spellcasting ability as well as allow for some kind of reptile control. This same creature had a magical ring of protection +2. Well, the quick thinking mage identified the item and told the party that it was a companion piece to the crown and boosted the reptile control abilities. Since the item was on the same creature, the party bought this explanation and let the mage keep both items. A thief getting to the treasure first and pocketing a few gems is almost to be expected, just make sure you do when you can't really be caught. Grandmother's dagger was more of a comical example of a painfully scatterbrained female thief pocketing a relatively minor item that she probably would have gotten anyway. The party was more amused than anything and the player of the thief pretty much knew that was going to be the party reaction. Players have to balance playing their characters with party harmony. I guess that is a lot tougher if you are gaming with strangers. I wouldn't know. I only game with close friends and we can pretty much gauge each others reaction in advance.
CzarGarrett 09-27-05, 09:45 AM	Unless you, as the rogue, were taking specific items that were known to be in there, or something that another party member really wanted/needed, then there's no problem. If your group is going into a vault to get the Maltese Falcon, and the group knows that there is the Jade Tiger in the vault as well, don't snatch that early. But the Silvered Cup of Ulong, no one knows about, so that's fair game to grab early.