commoner game [Archive] - Wizards Community

commoner game [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cleric_of_ted
10-11-06, 02:53 PM i want to play a game with a party me as dm but i want them to all be themself an obvilously they would be commoners but what can i doo too make the class and better so they can still feel like they are themselfs but they dont die when the look at an enemy. please help.
Tyler Do'Urden
10-11-06, 02:59 PM Try making them experts instead at 1st level and let them multiclass into real adventuring classes later.
CryoSilver
10-11-06, 03:04 PM D&D is not really the best system for representing the real world.

That aside, let them be idealized versions of themselves: the smart kid is the wizard, the religious kid is the cleric, the strong kid is the fighter, the creepy Goth kid is the rogue, etc.
Azezel
10-11-06, 03:13 PM First, calm down.

Good.

Capitalisation, punctuation, paragraphs, these things are your friends.

Now, as I understand it, you want to run a game where your players stat themselves and play themselves?

You worry that the commoner class is too weak for such an endevour, and understandably so.

Now first, most modern people are more analagous to Experts than Commoners. We generally have several fairly developed skills that we use in our chosen proffession.

Secondly - d20 Modern is probably a better system for such an enterprise.
Drohem
10-11-06, 03:28 PM Yeah, check D20 Modern SRD on WotC website. It's free. Have your players create themselves using one of the six Basic Classes.
The_Jester
10-11-06, 05:56 PM I want to play a game with a party -myself as the DM- but I want them to all be themselves. Obviously they would be commoners, so what can I do too make the class better? So they can still feel like themselves but so they do not die when they look at an enemy? Please help.

1: Low level monsters The ECL of your party will be lower, half the general toughness of a regular party. Remember that the CR of monsters is based on the assumption the party is 4 PC-class characters. So make sure the CR is half what you normally would. Four kobolds or two orcs should be sufficient at 1st level.
If you start at higher levels (3 or 4 or so) then base challenges as if the party was really half that (level 1 or 2).

2: Rest Let them do it frequently.

3: An Edge Give them one. Action points (from Eberron or d20 Modern) might be a good idea. A bonus feat might be another. Guns might also be a possibility, just remember to keep track of ammo.

4: Non-combat Lots of encounters that rely on social skills, brains or problem solving over straight fighting. Traps and puzzles are good ideas. Situations where they can avoid combat or kill their enemies indirectly are another.

5: Allies Help never hurt.
Black_Puffin
10-11-06, 06:16 PM My bro has a "modern" commoner campaign running right now. He uses more RP encounters than combat. He's houseruled a lot of things.
Here are a few off of the top of my head:
1. Only Commoner class as DMG
2. Un-common points: additional "ability score" spent at char creation
3.Truely deadly combat (infections, concussions, etc...)
4. Bonus RP Dice for good roleplaying (found in another thread on encouraging RPing)

I know for 18 uncommon points you could multiclass as non-magical classes.

The worst thing he's thrown at them was a serial killer.
I'll see if he'll post here for more info. Look for Mr.Darkson, most likely towards the end of the week.
MrDarkson
10-15-06, 05:10 PM I am the aforementioned DM that Black Puffin was talking about.

Before I say anything else, I should inform you that I am a brutal DM. It's not that I'm an overly strict DM, but I make excrutiatingly difficult encounters.

At the beginning of the campaign, I had the players roll their abilities using only 3d6 instead of the usual 4d6. I added another roll to their ability roll, "uncommon points," just like Black Puffin said. I made a chart ahead of time that had a list of slightly uncommon attributes that a common person might have and the cost associated with each one. So, if a character wanted to have, say, a learner's permit (the commoners in the campaign are in high school) they would use 6 uncommon points, subtracting 6 from whichever roll they assigned to "uncommon points" for their character. Did you get all that? Use this idea if it suits your setting. I personally didn't screw with the class as presented in the DMG at all. The challenge of having a third rate character class made encounters all the more fun, at leat for my group and for my sadistic and domineering sense of fun.

Most of the encounters, as Black puffin said, were roleplaying encounters or very normal activities, albeit with some mischief concocted by the PCs. For example, in the English class of the PCs, one of them poured soda all over the backpack of the kid in front of her. While it wasn't slaying an orc warlord, it was fun because it involved several skill checks to avoid being seen or heard by the teacher. Of course, I added some really difficult encounters that demanded brains on the part of the players and not the traditional D&D spells, swords, and sneak attacks, mainly because the PCs didn't have any. The best example of this is what Balck Puffin also mentioned in his post: the serial killer.

The serial killer was a single man with a CR well over what the PCs "should" have been fighting. He ended up putting all the PCs in the ICU in a local hospital after killing the parents of an NPC student in the school the PCs go to; nearly drawing and quartering said NPC student with a meat hook , a chain, and a sedan; peppering an NPC ally with a submachine gun; shooting the PCs; and getting thrown out a second floor window. After it was all said and done, the serial killer showed up at the hospital and tried to kill them for ruining his plans.

Now, if you are actually still reading this Faulkner-sized post, you might be wondering, perhaps longing to know, just how the hell did they survive that?

A good question. I did something The Jester mentioned in his post, for starters: I gave them allies. As I said before, one of their allies got sprayed by a submachine gun. That could have been one of the PCs if he hadn't been their to act as a sort of buffer between the PCs and the serial killer. In other words, the time that it took for the serial killer to pump pour Horus full of nine millimeter bulets was time in which the PCs could gain the upper hand. Now, I'm not saying that you should give them a bunch of human shields and let the them die in place of the PCs, but let the allies do their jobs; let them help the PCs. Let them buy time, let them take some of the punches, and let them help in more... obvious ways.

Here's what I mean by obvious ways: Mr. Darkson, the character whose name I'm using, the PC's homeroom and Latin teacher and resident vigilante. Call it bad DMing, call it deus ex machina, call it what you will, but when the PCs want to escape from the ICU because they think the serial killer is going to seek revenge on them, and there are two armed FBI agents guarding them outside, someone has got to take care of the FBI agents so that the PCs have enough strength left to fight another battle. That's where the bad-ass latin teacher comes in. So, it's a good idea to help to PCs out in some obvious ways while not stealing all the fun from the adventure. Ergo, knock out the FBI agents so that the PCs can have fun sneaking out of the hospital instead of getting caught before the adventure begins. Of course, putting those FBI agents there might have been a bad idea in the first place, but then again, if they weren't there, it might have seemed to easy to escape.

Bear in mind though, my advice is not free from all flaws, as I started my commoner campaign simply to see if I could actually do it. If you're still reading this, I very much admire your patience.

Any questions?
cleric_of_ted
10-15-06, 06:21 PM could you explane more about the points you gave them at the beggining.
ArcTan
10-15-06, 10:17 PM Even if you scale everything down, playing Commoners is a dumb idea. It's not power that matters here, but how interesting the game is, and a game with Commoner PCs is excruciatingly boring -- you don't get to use cool weapons, you don't get to use cool magic, you don't get to do anything at all, your list of skills and feats and class abilities is bland as can be, etc.

What you don't want to do here is say that if these people existed in the game they'd be Commoners so scale everything in D&D down to a Commoner game. That's asinine. Do the opposite -- scale *them* up so that they can see a "heroic", larger-than-life version of themselves doing the things D&D was designed to let players do.

d20 Modern does this -- not explicitly, but it does. Most people d20 Modern would call a "Tough Hero" can't actually do things like ignore energy damage (fire burns skin, however tough you are), most Smart Hero-type people can't actually do things like form impromptu battle plans and have them work, etc. d20 Modern explicitly assumes that you are, well, a Hero, as opposed to an "Ordinary" (their term for the equivalent of a D&D NPC class). That's the point -- the game's not a tool for telling realistic stories, but for scripting your own badass action movie, and so if you want to play yourself you have to play the badass action movie hero version of yourself or the game's just dumb.
RobbyPants
10-16-06, 08:58 AM My only concern is, are the PCs supposed to be modeled after the players?

If so, how are you handling ability score generation? You have to tread lightly here, as you don't want to offend anyone.
"No offense dude, but there's no way you have an 18 Int".
...can get kinda messy :nonono:

Also, how would you handle it if any of the players have any useful abilities? For instance, what if one of them is a 3rd degree black belt (or something) and wants to be a monk? It seems reasonable, but it's not fair to all the players.

I've tried doing something similar before back in 2E, but it's always full of awkwardness. My only advice is to tread lightly ;)
CryoSilver
10-16-06, 02:02 PM Fairest way to do stats is just via point buy; it allows everyone to empahsize their attributes, but keeps everyone balanced regardless.
cleric_of_ted
10-16-06, 02:20 PM just so that i dont get anyone asking this question the players whant to do this and i shouldnt tell them that they cannot play what they want and as i know the class i just want help on tweeking it abit not that its a bad idear my self i think its a bad idaer but i am going to let them find this out for them self because it will give them a better understanding of power rather than them jumping in and playing uber character from the start. advice only please i know its a bad idear.
CryoSilver
10-16-06, 02:30 PM Punctuation. Spelling. Please.
RobbyPants
10-16-06, 03:49 PM ...but what can i doo too make the class and better so they can still feel like they are themselfs but they dont die when the look at an enemy. please help.
As Tyler Do'Urden said earlier, make them all experts. It keeps them all as the same class, but still much weaker than any standard PC class.

If you're still worried, give them 2 levels or expert, but only count them as level 1. This may be a little overpowered, but I feel it'd be less overpowered than it would be underpowered to keep them all level 1 and having them fight CR 1 encounters.
cleric_of_ted
10-16-06, 05:09 PM so what give them 2 levels of commoner an count it as 1.
Black_Puffin
10-16-06, 06:21 PM I'll do my best until Darkson gets back. He shows up on weekends, school and all.

Step 1: roll ability scores
Step 2: roll an additional 4d6 discarding the lowest roll, these are your un-common points.
Step 3: find something on Darkson's chart of uncommon things that apply to his setting that you want. You pay X points to aquire this ability. Any unspent points are lost.

For example: My character, Lisa "Hecate" Flemming, had 8 un-common points (I rolled low on all abilities also, but not low enough for a reroll). I got a pet husky (1 point), a job at a bookstore cafe (4 points), is a social outcast (1 point), and is related to a FBI agent (2 points, not on list).
ArcTan
10-16-06, 06:38 PM My only concern is, are the PCs supposed to be modeled after the players?

If so, how are you handling ability score generation? You have to tread lightly here, as you don't want to offend anyone.
"No offense dude, but there's no way you have an 18 Int".
...can get kinda messy :nonono:

Also, how would you handle it if any of the players have any useful abilities? For instance, what if one of them is a 3rd degree black belt (or something) and wants to be a monk? It seems reasonable, but it's not fair to all the players.

I've tried doing something similar before back in 2E, but it's always full of awkwardness. My only advice is to tread lightly ;)

The only real way to do this is give them a standard point buy and standard access to all classes and just tell them to "make a character who reminds you of you", *without* giving special dispensations or making special rules because of things that happen in real life.
Black_Puffin
10-17-06, 05:21 PM FYI: I was once opposed to Darkson's Commoner Campaign, A.K.A. Tales of the Commonfolk, at first. I later joined after I saw how much fun the other players were having WITHOUT the combat, and spells.Through the power of sheer roleplaying, they convinced me to join. I joined when the rest of the "party" was 4th level.

The purpose of the campaign was not to be all that you could be, but to do fun things with the limitations of a commoner. Think about it, do you think taking down a murderer is fun as a fighter or rouge? Try it as a commoner, who is completely unprepared to do so. It is surprisingly gratifying. :D

Another clarification; the un-common points are just to provide backstory and influences the relationships of NPC's. If anyone has a job (I believe one other PC has one) they get an income. My dog, I trained for hunting so he'd be effective when combat occurs and he's there (my char has 9 Str and 7 Con, 4 HP, and has anemia (my choice) at level 4). Yes, the dog has higher stats than I do.:weep:

I just remembered, Darkson did not allow rerolls on Ability scores, you played with what you rolled the first time.
The_Jester
10-17-06, 06:55 PM For ease of those newcomers:

Just so that I don't get anyone asking this question: the players want to do this, and I should not tell them that they cannot play what they want.

I know the class, I just want help on tweeking it a bit.

Not that it is a bad idea; myself, I think its a bad idea, but I am going to let them find this out for themselves because it will give them a better understanding of power, rather than them jumping in and playing uber character from the start. A

Advice only please, I know it is a bad idea.

So what? Give them 2 levels of commoner an count it as 1?

NPC classes have half the Challenge Rating as PC classes. 2 levels of commoner are pretty much equal to 1 level of a PC class. Double the level and they might have a better shot at survival.

It's not a bad idea, it's a different idea that goes againt the common playstyle of many people. It might be fun, I've been tempted to play an everyman-style game for a while. Perhaps commoners trapped in a beseiged inn surrounded by zombies.
It'd be great for a horror game or investigation/mystery adventure.

As a long-term campaign things might get more complicated.

Questions:
1: How long do you plan on having the players play commoners? Is it a long game or a quick single-adventure? Or will they lead into a campaign?
2: Is this just to teach them a lesson?
3: Will they only be human?
4: Modern day or fantasy?
halflingvampire
10-17-06, 07:38 PM just have them model themselves with real adventuring classes like in PHB, use rolling, but let them have 2 rerolls per attribute...that's what my DM did, and it seemed to work, no one was horrendously over- or underpowered, and we all played actual classes, that still reflected our personalities
RobbyPants
10-17-06, 09:58 PM so what give them 2 levels of commoner an count it as 1.
That's kind of what I was thinking. As The_Jester said, those NPC classes are about half the power of PC classes. Compare a level 2 commoner to a level 1 fighter:

Ability Fighter 1 Commoner 2
HD 1d10+Con 2d4+(2xCon)
BAB +1 +1
Fort +2 +0
Ref +0 +0
Will +0 +0
Special Feat -

This way, you can have them be generic commoners, but they won't be quite so weak. Even so, the only thing a commoner 2 has over fighter 1 is that he gets double his Con mod added to his hit points (which might not be that high!). In every other way, he is even, or he falls behind.
MrDarkson
10-18-06, 09:49 AM Cleric of Ted, you requested that I explain how uncommon points worked.

During character creation, I had each of the players roll 3d6 six times, giving them a total of 7 scores, 6 of which would be ability score and the 7th remaining score would become the character's pool of uncommon points.

Then, I presented tham with a chart I had written up. On said chart was a list of somewhat uncommon attributes, such as Balck Puffin's dog, and the attributes' corresonding cost. So, if a character has 12 uncommon points, that character can get attributes from the list as long as the total costs of the attributes does not excede 12.

Now, "uncommon points" is a slight misnomer. The attributes on the list were not really things that only above average people would have. An average person can have a job and a dog for instance. Uncommon points therefore represent the amount of variance between one commoner and another.

If you are going to use this system, you are welcome to, but bear in mind that the list that I used won't necessarily work in your setting, whatever it may be.

What is the setting by the way? I can give better advice if I know the setting.

As far as the class itself goes, I did not change it at all. Like I said before, the weakness of the class made it interesting. Also, the PCs were not based on the players. If you are going to let them play as themselves, I warn you, just as RobbyPants did, that the game could get very awkward. I don't know how mature your playing group is, but you should probably consider that when writing adventures for them. If they want to play as themselves and their not very mature, don't write an adventure that is going to make someone seem better than someone else. Make sure everyone shares the spotlight. If a PC gets singled out and the PCs are based on the players themselves, that's just as bad as singling out a player. Be very careful. But on the other hand, if you've got a mature playing group, you are blessed with great fortune. If they are indeed mature, you can go wild with the situations and use the awkwardness of playing as yourself to your advantage. By that I mean that you can write adventures that put the players into situations where they need to work through personal differences. But once again, it's important not to single anyone out if they're not mature enough to handle it. Don't send anyone home with a broken ego.

As far as abilities go, I think you should roll for the scores using 5d6, as though it were a high powered game. That way, the PCs get above average scores, which will put them in a good mindset. Hopefully everyone will have a charater they are happy with, and they won't compare their abilities to the others to much. If one player is obviously stronger than another, it's okay for him to have a higher strength score than the other, in fact it's probably better that way - the same is true for the other abilities; just be careful about the mental abilities if your group isn't mature enough to handle the fact that someone in the group has a higher IQ than another person.

Godspeed, Cleric of Ted. I hope your group is mature.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cleric_of_ted 10-11-06, 02:53 PM	i want to play a game with a party me as dm but i want them to all be themself an obvilously they would be commoners but what can i doo too make the class and better so they can still feel like they are themselfs but they dont die when the look at an enemy. please help.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-11-06, 02:59 PM	Try making them experts instead at 1st level and let them multiclass into real adventuring classes later.
CryoSilver 10-11-06, 03:04 PM	D&D is not really the best system for representing the real world. That aside, let them be idealized versions of themselves: the smart kid is the wizard, the religious kid is the cleric, the strong kid is the fighter, the creepy Goth kid is the rogue, etc.
Azezel 10-11-06, 03:13 PM	First, calm down. Good. Capitalisation, punctuation, paragraphs, these things are your friends. Now, as I understand it, you want to run a game where your players stat themselves and play themselves? You worry that the commoner class is too weak for such an endevour, and understandably so. Now first, most modern people are more analagous to Experts than Commoners. We generally have several fairly developed skills that we use in our chosen proffession. Secondly - d20 Modern is probably a better system for such an enterprise.
Drohem 10-11-06, 03:28 PM	Yeah, check D20 Modern SRD on WotC website. It's free. Have your players create themselves using one of the six Basic Classes.
The_Jester 10-11-06, 05:56 PM	I want to play a game with a party -myself as the DM- but I want them to all be themselves. Obviously they would be commoners, so what can I do too make the class better? So they can still feel like themselves but so they do not die when they look at an enemy? Please help. 1: Low level monsters The ECL of your party will be lower, half the general toughness of a regular party. Remember that the CR of monsters is based on the assumption the party is 4 PC-class characters. So make sure the CR is half what you normally would. Four kobolds or two orcs should be sufficient at 1st level. If you start at higher levels (3 or 4 or so) then base challenges as if the party was really half that (level 1 or 2). 2: Rest Let them do it frequently. 3: An Edge Give them one. Action points (from Eberron or d20 Modern) might be a good idea. A bonus feat might be another. Guns might also be a possibility, just remember to keep track of ammo. 4: Non-combat Lots of encounters that rely on social skills, brains or problem solving over straight fighting. Traps and puzzles are good ideas. Situations where they can avoid combat or kill their enemies indirectly are another. 5: Allies Help never hurt.
Black_Puffin 10-11-06, 06:16 PM	My bro has a "modern" commoner campaign running right now. He uses more RP encounters than combat. He's houseruled a lot of things. Here are a few off of the top of my head: 1. Only Commoner class as DMG 2. Un-common points: additional "ability score" spent at char creation 3.Truely deadly combat (infections, concussions, etc...) 4. Bonus RP Dice for good roleplaying (found in another thread on encouraging RPing) I know for 18 uncommon points you could multiclass as non-magical classes. The worst thing he's thrown at them was a serial killer. I'll see if he'll post here for more info. Look for Mr.Darkson, most likely towards the end of the week.
MrDarkson 10-15-06, 05:10 PM	I am the aforementioned DM that Black Puffin was talking about. Before I say anything else, I should inform you that I am a brutal DM. It's not that I'm an overly strict DM, but I make excrutiatingly difficult encounters. At the beginning of the campaign, I had the players roll their abilities using only 3d6 instead of the usual 4d6. I added another roll to their ability roll, "uncommon points," just like Black Puffin said. I made a chart ahead of time that had a list of slightly uncommon attributes that a common person might have and the cost associated with each one. So, if a character wanted to have, say, a learner's permit (the commoners in the campaign are in high school) they would use 6 uncommon points, subtracting 6 from whichever roll they assigned to "uncommon points" for their character. Did you get all that? Use this idea if it suits your setting. I personally didn't screw with the class as presented in the DMG at all. The challenge of having a third rate character class made encounters all the more fun, at leat for my group and for my sadistic and domineering sense of fun. Most of the encounters, as Black puffin said, were roleplaying encounters or very normal activities, albeit with some mischief concocted by the PCs. For example, in the English class of the PCs, one of them poured soda all over the backpack of the kid in front of her. While it wasn't slaying an orc warlord, it was fun because it involved several skill checks to avoid being seen or heard by the teacher. Of course, I added some really difficult encounters that demanded brains on the part of the players and not the traditional D&D spells, swords, and sneak attacks, mainly because the PCs didn't have any. The best example of this is what Balck Puffin also mentioned in his post: the serial killer. The serial killer was a single man with a CR well over what the PCs "should" have been fighting. He ended up putting all the PCs in the ICU in a local hospital after killing the parents of an NPC student in the school the PCs go to; nearly drawing and quartering said NPC student with a meat hook , a chain, and a sedan; peppering an NPC ally with a submachine gun; shooting the PCs; and getting thrown out a second floor window. After it was all said and done, the serial killer showed up at the hospital and tried to kill them for ruining his plans. Now, if you are actually still reading this Faulkner-sized post, you might be wondering, perhaps longing to know, just how the hell did they survive that? A good question. I did something The Jester mentioned in his post, for starters: I gave them allies. As I said before, one of their allies got sprayed by a submachine gun. That could have been one of the PCs if he hadn't been their to act as a sort of buffer between the PCs and the serial killer. In other words, the time that it took for the serial killer to pump pour Horus full of nine millimeter bulets was time in which the PCs could gain the upper hand. Now, I'm not saying that you should give them a bunch of human shields and let the them die in place of the PCs, but let the allies do their jobs; let them help the PCs. Let them buy time, let them take some of the punches, and let them help in more... obvious ways. Here's what I mean by obvious ways: Mr. Darkson, the character whose name I'm using, the PC's homeroom and Latin teacher and resident vigilante. Call it bad DMing, call it deus ex machina, call it what you will, but when the PCs want to escape from the ICU because they think the serial killer is going to seek revenge on them, and there are two armed FBI agents guarding them outside, someone has got to take care of the FBI agents so that the PCs have enough strength left to fight another battle. That's where the bad-ass latin teacher comes in. So, it's a good idea to help to PCs out in some obvious ways while not stealing all the fun from the adventure. Ergo, knock out the FBI agents so that the PCs can have fun sneaking out of the hospital instead of getting caught before the adventure begins. Of course, putting those FBI agents there might have been a bad idea in the first place, but then again, if they weren't there, it might have seemed to easy to escape. Bear in mind though, my advice is not free from all flaws, as I started my commoner campaign simply to see if I could actually do it. If you're still reading this, I very much admire your patience. Any questions?
cleric_of_ted 10-15-06, 06:21 PM	could you explane more about the points you gave them at the beggining.
ArcTan 10-15-06, 10:17 PM	Even if you scale everything down, playing Commoners is a dumb idea. It's not power that matters here, but how interesting the game is, and a game with Commoner PCs is excruciatingly boring -- you don't get to use cool weapons, you don't get to use cool magic, you don't get to do anything at all, your list of skills and feats and class abilities is bland as can be, etc. What you don't want to do here is say that if these people existed in the game they'd be Commoners so scale everything in D&D down to a Commoner game. That's asinine. Do the opposite -- scale them up so that they can see a "heroic", larger-than-life version of themselves doing the things D&D was designed to let players do. d20 Modern does this -- not explicitly, but it does. Most people d20 Modern would call a "Tough Hero" can't actually do things like ignore energy damage (fire burns skin, however tough you are), most Smart Hero-type people can't actually do things like form impromptu battle plans and have them work, etc. d20 Modern explicitly assumes that you are, well, a Hero, as opposed to an "Ordinary" (their term for the equivalent of a D&D NPC class). That's the point -- the game's not a tool for telling realistic stories, but for scripting your own badass action movie, and so if you want to play yourself you have to play the badass action movie hero version of yourself or the game's just dumb.
RobbyPants 10-16-06, 08:58 AM	My only concern is, are the PCs supposed to be modeled after the players? If so, how are you handling ability score generation? You have to tread lightly here, as you don't want to offend anyone. "No offense dude, but there's no way you have an 18 Int". ...can get kinda messy :nonono: Also, how would you handle it if any of the players have any useful abilities? For instance, what if one of them is a 3rd degree black belt (or something) and wants to be a monk? It seems reasonable, but it's not fair to all the players. I've tried doing something similar before back in 2E, but it's always full of awkwardness. My only advice is to tread lightly ;)
CryoSilver 10-16-06, 02:02 PM	Fairest way to do stats is just via point buy; it allows everyone to empahsize their attributes, but keeps everyone balanced regardless.
cleric_of_ted 10-16-06, 02:20 PM	just so that i dont get anyone asking this question the players whant to do this and i shouldnt tell them that they cannot play what they want and as i know the class i just want help on tweeking it abit not that its a bad idear my self i think its a bad idaer but i am going to let them find this out for them self because it will give them a better understanding of power rather than them jumping in and playing uber character from the start. advice only please i know its a bad idear.
CryoSilver 10-16-06, 02:30 PM	Punctuation. Spelling. Please.
RobbyPants 10-16-06, 03:49 PM	...but what can i doo too make the class and better so they can still feel like they are themselfs but they dont die when the look at an enemy. please help. As Tyler Do'Urden said earlier, make them all experts. It keeps them all as the same class, but still much weaker than any standard PC class. If you're still worried, give them 2 levels or expert, but only count them as level 1. This may be a little overpowered, but I feel it'd be less overpowered than it would be underpowered to keep them all level 1 and having them fight CR 1 encounters.
cleric_of_ted 10-16-06, 05:09 PM	so what give them 2 levels of commoner an count it as 1.
Black_Puffin 10-16-06, 06:21 PM	I'll do my best until Darkson gets back. He shows up on weekends, school and all. Step 1: roll ability scores Step 2: roll an additional 4d6 discarding the lowest roll, these are your un-common points. Step 3: find something on Darkson's chart of uncommon things that apply to his setting that you want. You pay X points to aquire this ability. Any unspent points are lost. For example: My character, Lisa "Hecate" Flemming, had 8 un-common points (I rolled low on all abilities also, but not low enough for a reroll). I got a pet husky (1 point), a job at a bookstore cafe (4 points), is a social outcast (1 point), and is related to a FBI agent (2 points, not on list).
ArcTan 10-16-06, 06:38 PM	My only concern is, are the PCs supposed to be modeled after the players? If so, how are you handling ability score generation? You have to tread lightly here, as you don't want to offend anyone. "No offense dude, but there's no way you have an 18 Int". ...can get kinda messy :nonono: Also, how would you handle it if any of the players have any useful abilities? For instance, what if one of them is a 3rd degree black belt (or something) and wants to be a monk? It seems reasonable, but it's not fair to all the players. I've tried doing something similar before back in 2E, but it's always full of awkwardness. My only advice is to tread lightly ;) The only real way to do this is give them a standard point buy and standard access to all classes and just tell them to "make a character who reminds you of you", without giving special dispensations or making special rules because of things that happen in real life.
Black_Puffin 10-17-06, 05:21 PM	FYI: I was once opposed to Darkson's Commoner Campaign, A.K.A. Tales of the Commonfolk, at first. I later joined after I saw how much fun the other players were having WITHOUT the combat, and spells.Through the power of sheer roleplaying, they convinced me to join. I joined when the rest of the "party" was 4th level. The purpose of the campaign was not to be all that you could be, but to do fun things with the limitations of a commoner. Think about it, do you think taking down a murderer is fun as a fighter or rouge? Try it as a commoner, who is completely unprepared to do so. It is surprisingly gratifying. :D Another clarification; the un-common points are just to provide backstory and influences the relationships of NPC's. If anyone has a job (I believe one other PC has one) they get an income. My dog, I trained for hunting so he'd be effective when combat occurs and he's there (my char has 9 Str and 7 Con, 4 HP, and has anemia (my choice) at level 4). Yes, the dog has higher stats than I do.:weep: I just remembered, Darkson did not allow rerolls on Ability scores, you played with what you rolled the first time.
The_Jester 10-17-06, 06:55 PM	For ease of those newcomers: Just so that I don't get anyone asking this question: the players want to do this, and I should not tell them that they cannot play what they want. I know the class, I just want help on tweeking it a bit. Not that it is a bad idea; myself, I think its a bad idea, but I am going to let them find this out for themselves because it will give them a better understanding of power, rather than them jumping in and playing uber character from the start. A Advice only please, I know it is a bad idea. So what? Give them 2 levels of commoner an count it as 1? NPC classes have half the Challenge Rating as PC classes. 2 levels of commoner are pretty much equal to 1 level of a PC class. Double the level and they might have a better shot at survival. It's not a bad idea, it's a different idea that goes againt the common playstyle of many people. It might be fun, I've been tempted to play an everyman-style game for a while. Perhaps commoners trapped in a beseiged inn surrounded by zombies. It'd be great for a horror game or investigation/mystery adventure. As a long-term campaign things might get more complicated. Questions: 1: How long do you plan on having the players play commoners? Is it a long game or a quick single-adventure? Or will they lead into a campaign? 2: Is this just to teach them a lesson? 3: Will they only be human? 4: Modern day or fantasy?
halflingvampire 10-17-06, 07:38 PM	just have them model themselves with real adventuring classes like in PHB, use rolling, but let them have 2 rerolls per attribute...that's what my DM did, and it seemed to work, no one was horrendously over- or underpowered, and we all played actual classes, that still reflected our personalities
RobbyPants 10-17-06, 09:58 PM	so what give them 2 levels of commoner an count it as 1. That's kind of what I was thinking. As The_Jester said, those NPC classes are about half the power of PC classes. Compare a level 2 commoner to a level 1 fighter: Ability Fighter 1 Commoner 2 HD 1d10+Con 2d4+(2xCon) BAB +1 +1 Fort +2 +0 Ref +0 +0 Will +0 +0 Special Feat - This way, you can have them be generic commoners, but they won't be quite so weak. Even so, the only thing a commoner 2 has over fighter 1 is that he gets double his Con mod added to his hit points (which might not be that high!). In every other way, he is even, or he falls behind.
MrDarkson 10-18-06, 09:49 AM	Cleric of Ted, you requested that I explain how uncommon points worked. During character creation, I had each of the players roll 3d6 six times, giving them a total of 7 scores, 6 of which would be ability score and the 7th remaining score would become the character's pool of uncommon points. Then, I presented tham with a chart I had written up. On said chart was a list of somewhat uncommon attributes, such as Balck Puffin's dog, and the attributes' corresonding cost. So, if a character has 12 uncommon points, that character can get attributes from the list as long as the total costs of the attributes does not excede 12. Now, "uncommon points" is a slight misnomer. The attributes on the list were not really things that only above average people would have. An average person can have a job and a dog for instance. Uncommon points therefore represent the amount of variance between one commoner and another. If you are going to use this system, you are welcome to, but bear in mind that the list that I used won't necessarily work in your setting, whatever it may be. What is the setting by the way? I can give better advice if I know the setting. As far as the class itself goes, I did not change it at all. Like I said before, the weakness of the class made it interesting. Also, the PCs were not based on the players. If you are going to let them play as themselves, I warn you, just as RobbyPants did, that the game could get very awkward. I don't know how mature your playing group is, but you should probably consider that when writing adventures for them. If they want to play as themselves and their not very mature, don't write an adventure that is going to make someone seem better than someone else. Make sure everyone shares the spotlight. If a PC gets singled out and the PCs are based on the players themselves, that's just as bad as singling out a player. Be very careful. But on the other hand, if you've got a mature playing group, you are blessed with great fortune. If they are indeed mature, you can go wild with the situations and use the awkwardness of playing as yourself to your advantage. By that I mean that you can write adventures that put the players into situations where they need to work through personal differences. But once again, it's important not to single anyone out if they're not mature enough to handle it. Don't send anyone home with a broken ego. As far as abilities go, I think you should roll for the scores using 5d6, as though it were a high powered game. That way, the PCs get above average scores, which will put them in a good mindset. Hopefully everyone will have a charater they are happy with, and they won't compare their abilities to the others to much. If one player is obviously stronger than another, it's okay for him to have a higher strength score than the other, in fact it's probably better that way - the same is true for the other abilities; just be careful about the mental abilities if your group isn't mature enough to handle the fact that someone in the group has a higher IQ than another person. Godspeed, Cleric of Ted. I hope your group is mature.