Complete Champion...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Complete Champion...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
claypigeons
06-18-07, 04:09 AM So, is this book a Buy, a Pass or a "Wait till someone you know gets it and have a look to see for yourself" kind of manual?

I personally LOVE characters with a touch of the divine (or profane) to them. I love clerics just because they are sort of the hand of their deity on the material plane.

Does this book have enough feats/good (mechanically) PrCs to make it worthwhile? Or is it another Complete Psionic, and just does its own thing with no regard to what it is supposed to be expanding upon?
Archangel62
06-18-07, 07:41 AM I like it but then I tend to use clerics when I play;) . As for material for other classes, the fighter substitution stuff wasn't done well IMO but the barbarian one was SWEET. Also, a few of the prestige classes are rather greyhawk specific, probably not too tough to convert but somewhat time consuming.
Seeker95
06-18-07, 08:56 AM I personally LOVE characters with a touch of the divine (or profane) to them. I love clerics just because they are sort of the hand of their deity on the material plane.Then this book is most definitely for you.
Sunic_Flames
06-18-07, 09:18 AM Complete Champion is upper tier in quality. Fair bit of useful content, as well as tasty flavoring to boot. Only thing that bugs me is the affiliations have semi high gp costs to advance in, the mechanical benefits just don't seem worth the 20,000 gold or so to me.
lastknightleft
06-18-07, 11:17 AM aren't the affiliation cost part of your church, wouldn't your character be compelled (speaking desire wise) to pay those as an offering? the fact that you get benefits at all is just a way to say hey we know your character is giving most of his money to church?
Tempest Stormwind
06-18-07, 11:35 AM Cheese in a can. Wizards spontaneously casting all divination spells (note: Not all "wizard" divinations, but ALL divinations)? Spells that only work due to short durations, which of course aren't an issue for clerics with Complete Divine? OMGWTF prestige classes that don't give up anything of note and provide everything you could possibly want in return?

If you play divine spellcasters frequently, though, you're used to this.

The book is sort of a reverse Complete Psionic -- as bad, but in a different way. There's poor editing (though NOT as bad as Complete Psionic) and mechanics that are just as poorly thought out... but it erred on the side of HOLY **** instead of This Is Worthless. That said, if you like fluff, there's some passable stuff in there -- but that's not what I'm buying WotC generic books for.

Personally, as one who flat-out bans divine magic and all related classes in all of his games, I would avoid it like the plague. This book has reaffirmed my position on divine magic in general.
Astron the Wizard
06-18-07, 11:42 AM Why was Complete Psionics bad? It seemed okay to me.
Salla
06-18-07, 11:44 AM Personally, as one who flat-out bans divine magic and all related classes in all of his games, I would avoid it like the plague. This book has reaffirmed my position on divine magic in general.

Out of curiosity, I've tried this, but always had an issue dealing with the necessities of healing in combination with plot pacing (aka the good guys can't take a week off to recover in a time-sensitive situation). How'd you work around that, if I may ask?
celtredleg
06-18-07, 11:45 AM If you like divine casters, it has plenty of good stuff. If you dont, then dont bother. I love it myself.
Salla
06-18-07, 11:47 AM Why was Complete Psionics bad? It seemed okay to me.

The big ones that jump out are nerfs to psionic powers that don't have the same nerfs in arcane magic (Astral Construct restricted to one while every Summon X spell can be used en masse, and DR now supposedly applies to powers that deal slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage, where it doesn't to arcane spells that do), and the Illithid Heritage feats, which don't work with the established (via Lords of Madness) methods of Mind Flayer reproduction ... plus one of them tells you you can spend PP to augment its effects, but doesn't tell you HOW.

Many of the Psionics boards regulars call it 'Errata we had to pay for'.
Sunic_Flames
06-18-07, 11:52 AM aren't the affiliation cost part of your church, wouldn't your character be compelled (speaking desire wise) to pay those as an offering? the fact that you get benefits at all is just a way to say hey we know your character is giving most of his money to church?

Exactly how much does a church need to run? Because '20,000 gp' can go a very long way in a non adventuring lifestyle... like taking US dollars to Mexico, but on a much larger scale. And yeah, characters can feel a desire to tithe, or to just start tossing money to beggers, whatever. But as presented, it was a pay affiliation costs, get in good with the clergy, and get cool stuff for it... In other words it was presented in terms of mechanical benefit, as opposed to just doing it. It's not like we're talking a few gp, or even a few hundred here. 20k goes pretty far, even as a high level adventurer.

On the other side of this is a PRC with con to AC as a 1st level ability, which takes the other end of the investment vs return scale, aka is over the top.
Tempest Stormwind
06-18-07, 01:04 PM Why was Complete Psionics bad? It seemed okay to me.Read this. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10986361&postcount=3) That's as succinct as it gets while covering almost all of the points.

It's easily the worst book WotC's published in years in terms of content (wasted space), fluff (direct contradictions of existing material), editing ("Complete Psionic is what happens when editors roll a natural 1"), and general effectiveness (there's less material in there worth using than you can find in pretty much any open game book for a fifth of the price).

The joke is that 1/8 of the people who worked on it were Bruce Cordell (the author of the incredible, best-expansion-book-ever quality XPH). Roughly 1/8 of Complete Psionic is actually usable. Coincidence?Out of curiosity, I've tried this, but always had an issue dealing with the necessities of healing in combination with plot pacing (aka the good guys can't take a week off to recover in a time-sensitive situation). How'd you work around that, if I may ask?Psionic healing, available potions from alchemists (nonmagical healing salves with the same effect as Cure Light Wounds), and resurrections from adepts (who are all NPCs, all Killoren (Races of the Wild, essentially incarnate nature spirits), and can only use their magic in a natural leyline nexus). It helps that I use society minds (Untapped Potential) as well, which lets the party function (and heal) as if it were a single being, and I also allow the Tome of Battle (the Shadow Sun Ninja's Touch of the Shadow Sun is an incredible in-combat healing tool, and there are a few maneuvers like Iron Heart Endurance. This is on top of the Crusader, easily the best tank class ever published, which Just Doesn't Die (tm).). This, combined with arcane battlefield control and the odd thing like the dragon shaman or the bard, is more than enough to keep pretty much everyone alive and happy.

The problem with divine magic isn't the healing. It's the ludicrous "everything you can do" approach to the rest of the game, especially in terms of buffs. The stranglehold on divine healing IS looser than it was in 2e, but most people still think of healing as exclusively divine magic's schtick. These people aren't aware that you can get by *almost* perfectly without divine magic -- there's still issues regarding low-level healing, which the cleric still has in his deathgrip, but you can bypass that as I did above.

Apologies for the off-topic.
claypigeons
06-18-07, 04:19 PM Apologies for the off-topic.

No biggie. Always ends up happening, and my question has already been answered. But, as a clarification, are the PrCs really that overpowered?

Also, I really like divine characters. However, I have not, and will not use Divine Metamagic. Ever. Also, I make an effort not to overshadow the other members of the party. (This a two-fold problem. First, no one else has an eye toward efficiency. They seem to be unable to build a character that is actually good at what it is supposed to do, beyond having decent ability scores. Secondly, I DO know how to make and run an effective character. This can be a problem when you play a cleric, and can out-do everyone. :( )
Adamaro23
06-18-07, 04:43 PM Why was Complete Psionics bad? It seemed okay to me.

I liked Complete Psionics too, I did'nt see any differance between Complete Psionics and all the other Complete books..

I'm also wondering about Complete Champion, I don't play much divine stuff but i love varients on existing classes (Unearthed Arcana was my favorite book).
Sunic_Flames
06-18-07, 04:51 PM No biggie. Always ends up happening, and my question has already been answered. But, as a clarification, are the PrCs really that overpowered?

Nothing else specifically comes to mind, but then I only memorize fine detail if I think it directly revelent to myself or someone nearby I know or look it over several times. Read this as don't remember so well but it's probable.
Pangeon
06-18-07, 06:24 PM There's a lot in Complete Champion that reeks of cheese. Barbarians that get Pounce or Improved Grab instead of fast movement? Full casting divine classes that get (good) special abilities at every level, including Heal as a spell like ability? Con to AC in an early entry PrC, that stacks with Deepwarden? You get the picture.

That said, there are some useful variants that aren't ridiculously overpowered, notably a non-spellcasting paladin and ranger that get bonus feats... sweet, sweet, bonus feats...

The fluff, while better than in some other books, *cough*Complete Mage*cough* is almost laughable at some points... read the bits on the non-evil followers of Hextor and Erythnul, for example, and see what I mean.

Overall, some good material, some OMGWTFHAX material, some oaky fluff, some :twitch: fluff. Not really worth it, in my opinion.
Sunic_Flames
06-19-07, 12:49 PM Barbarians that get Pounce instead of fast movement?

I knew I was forgetting something... yeah that one takes the :cookie: cake. :P
Archangel62
06-19-07, 01:33 PM I will comment that it made a healing cleric in the party happy, now he can piggyback buffs onto his heals, however the group also realizes how ridiculous it can get when they battled a group of clerics using similar abilities.
General Bringer'O'Death
06-29-07, 01:05 AM I really like almost all of the Prestige Classes in this book (which is unusual).

As a whole, I think the Feats are the most interesting that I have seen in any book so far.

So, I'd give it a 9 out of 10.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
claypigeons 06-18-07, 04:09 AM	So, is this book a Buy, a Pass or a "Wait till someone you know gets it and have a look to see for yourself" kind of manual? I personally LOVE characters with a touch of the divine (or profane) to them. I love clerics just because they are sort of the hand of their deity on the material plane. Does this book have enough feats/good (mechanically) PrCs to make it worthwhile? Or is it another Complete Psionic, and just does its own thing with no regard to what it is supposed to be expanding upon?
Archangel62 06-18-07, 07:41 AM	I like it but then I tend to use clerics when I play;) . As for material for other classes, the fighter substitution stuff wasn't done well IMO but the barbarian one was SWEET. Also, a few of the prestige classes are rather greyhawk specific, probably not too tough to convert but somewhat time consuming.
Seeker95 06-18-07, 08:56 AM	I personally LOVE characters with a touch of the divine (or profane) to them. I love clerics just because they are sort of the hand of their deity on the material plane.Then this book is most definitely for you.
Sunic_Flames 06-18-07, 09:18 AM	Complete Champion is upper tier in quality. Fair bit of useful content, as well as tasty flavoring to boot. Only thing that bugs me is the affiliations have semi high gp costs to advance in, the mechanical benefits just don't seem worth the 20,000 gold or so to me.
lastknightleft 06-18-07, 11:17 AM	aren't the affiliation cost part of your church, wouldn't your character be compelled (speaking desire wise) to pay those as an offering? the fact that you get benefits at all is just a way to say hey we know your character is giving most of his money to church?
Tempest Stormwind 06-18-07, 11:35 AM	Cheese in a can. Wizards spontaneously casting all divination spells (note: Not all "wizard" divinations, but ALL divinations)? Spells that only work due to short durations, which of course aren't an issue for clerics with Complete Divine? OMGWTF prestige classes that don't give up anything of note and provide everything you could possibly want in return? If you play divine spellcasters frequently, though, you're used to this. The book is sort of a reverse Complete Psionic -- as bad, but in a different way. There's poor editing (though NOT as bad as Complete Psionic) and mechanics that are just as poorly thought out... but it erred on the side of HOLY **** instead of This Is Worthless. That said, if you like fluff, there's some passable stuff in there -- but that's not what I'm buying WotC generic books for. Personally, as one who flat-out bans divine magic and all related classes in all of his games, I would avoid it like the plague. This book has reaffirmed my position on divine magic in general.
Astron the Wizard 06-18-07, 11:42 AM	Why was Complete Psionics bad? It seemed okay to me.
Salla 06-18-07, 11:44 AM	Personally, as one who flat-out bans divine magic and all related classes in all of his games, I would avoid it like the plague. This book has reaffirmed my position on divine magic in general. Out of curiosity, I've tried this, but always had an issue dealing with the necessities of healing in combination with plot pacing (aka the good guys can't take a week off to recover in a time-sensitive situation). How'd you work around that, if I may ask?
celtredleg 06-18-07, 11:45 AM	If you like divine casters, it has plenty of good stuff. If you dont, then dont bother. I love it myself.
Salla 06-18-07, 11:47 AM	Why was Complete Psionics bad? It seemed okay to me. The big ones that jump out are nerfs to psionic powers that don't have the same nerfs in arcane magic (Astral Construct restricted to one while every Summon X spell can be used en masse, and DR now supposedly applies to powers that deal slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage, where it doesn't to arcane spells that do), and the Illithid Heritage feats, which don't work with the established (via Lords of Madness) methods of Mind Flayer reproduction ... plus one of them tells you you can spend PP to augment its effects, but doesn't tell you HOW. Many of the Psionics boards regulars call it 'Errata we had to pay for'.
Sunic_Flames 06-18-07, 11:52 AM	aren't the affiliation cost part of your church, wouldn't your character be compelled (speaking desire wise) to pay those as an offering? the fact that you get benefits at all is just a way to say hey we know your character is giving most of his money to church? Exactly how much does a church need to run? Because '20,000 gp' can go a very long way in a non adventuring lifestyle... like taking US dollars to Mexico, but on a much larger scale. And yeah, characters can feel a desire to tithe, or to just start tossing money to beggers, whatever. But as presented, it was a pay affiliation costs, get in good with the clergy, and get cool stuff for it... In other words it was presented in terms of mechanical benefit, as opposed to just doing it. It's not like we're talking a few gp, or even a few hundred here. 20k goes pretty far, even as a high level adventurer. On the other side of this is a PRC with con to AC as a 1st level ability, which takes the other end of the investment vs return scale, aka is over the top.
Tempest Stormwind 06-18-07, 01:04 PM	Why was Complete Psionics bad? It seemed okay to me.Read this. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10986361&postcount=3) That's as succinct as it gets while covering almost all of the points. It's easily the worst book WotC's published in years in terms of content (wasted space), fluff (direct contradictions of existing material), editing ("Complete Psionic is what happens when editors roll a natural 1"), and general effectiveness (there's less material in there worth using than you can find in pretty much any open game book for a fifth of the price). The joke is that 1/8 of the people who worked on it were Bruce Cordell (the author of the incredible, best-expansion-book-ever quality XPH). Roughly 1/8 of Complete Psionic is actually usable. Coincidence?Out of curiosity, I've tried this, but always had an issue dealing with the necessities of healing in combination with plot pacing (aka the good guys can't take a week off to recover in a time-sensitive situation). How'd you work around that, if I may ask?Psionic healing, available potions from alchemists (nonmagical healing salves with the same effect as Cure Light Wounds), and resurrections from adepts (who are all NPCs, all Killoren (Races of the Wild, essentially incarnate nature spirits), and can only use their magic in a natural leyline nexus). It helps that I use society minds (Untapped Potential) as well, which lets the party function (and heal) as if it were a single being, and I also allow the Tome of Battle (the Shadow Sun Ninja's Touch of the Shadow Sun is an incredible in-combat healing tool, and there are a few maneuvers like Iron Heart Endurance. This is on top of the Crusader, easily the best tank class ever published, which Just Doesn't Die (tm).). This, combined with arcane battlefield control and the odd thing like the dragon shaman or the bard, is more than enough to keep pretty much everyone alive and happy. The problem with divine magic isn't the healing. It's the ludicrous "everything you can do" approach to the rest of the game, especially in terms of buffs. The stranglehold on divine healing IS looser than it was in 2e, but most people still think of healing as exclusively divine magic's schtick. These people aren't aware that you can get by almost perfectly without divine magic -- there's still issues regarding low-level healing, which the cleric still has in his deathgrip, but you can bypass that as I did above. Apologies for the off-topic.
claypigeons 06-18-07, 04:19 PM	Apologies for the off-topic. No biggie. Always ends up happening, and my question has already been answered. But, as a clarification, are the PrCs really that overpowered? Also, I really like divine characters. However, I have not, and will not use Divine Metamagic. Ever. Also, I make an effort not to overshadow the other members of the party. (This a two-fold problem. First, no one else has an eye toward efficiency. They seem to be unable to build a character that is actually good at what it is supposed to do, beyond having decent ability scores. Secondly, I DO know how to make and run an effective character. This can be a problem when you play a cleric, and can out-do everyone. :( )
Adamaro23 06-18-07, 04:43 PM	Why was Complete Psionics bad? It seemed okay to me. I liked Complete Psionics too, I did'nt see any differance between Complete Psionics and all the other Complete books.. I'm also wondering about Complete Champion, I don't play much divine stuff but i love varients on existing classes (Unearthed Arcana was my favorite book).
Sunic_Flames 06-18-07, 04:51 PM	No biggie. Always ends up happening, and my question has already been answered. But, as a clarification, are the PrCs really that overpowered? Nothing else specifically comes to mind, but then I only memorize fine detail if I think it directly revelent to myself or someone nearby I know or look it over several times. Read this as don't remember so well but it's probable.
Pangeon 06-18-07, 06:24 PM	There's a lot in Complete Champion that reeks of cheese. Barbarians that get Pounce or Improved Grab instead of fast movement? Full casting divine classes that get (good) special abilities at every level, including Heal as a spell like ability? Con to AC in an early entry PrC, that stacks with Deepwarden? You get the picture. That said, there are some useful variants that aren't ridiculously overpowered, notably a non-spellcasting paladin and ranger that get bonus feats... sweet, sweet, bonus feats... The fluff, while better than in some other books, coughComplete Magecough is almost laughable at some points... read the bits on the non-evil followers of Hextor and Erythnul, for example, and see what I mean. Overall, some good material, some OMGWTFHAX material, some oaky fluff, some :twitch: fluff. Not really worth it, in my opinion.
Sunic_Flames 06-19-07, 12:49 PM	Barbarians that get Pounce instead of fast movement? I knew I was forgetting something... yeah that one takes the :cookie: cake. :P
Archangel62 06-19-07, 01:33 PM	I will comment that it made a healing cleric in the party happy, now he can piggyback buffs onto his heals, however the group also realizes how ridiculous it can get when they battled a group of clerics using similar abilities.
General Bringer'O'Death 06-29-07, 01:05 AM	I really like almost all of the Prestige Classes in this book (which is unusual). As a whole, I think the Feats are the most interesting that I have seen in any book so far. So, I'd give it a 9 out of 10.