Complete Champion - Am I Missing Something? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Complete Champion - Am I Missing Something? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rotten_Halfling
09-13-07, 03:07 PM I just got my copy of Complete Champion. I have never regretted a D&D purchase more... And I bought a lot of Mongoose Publishing stuff!!! Is it just me, or is this a book devoted to optional rules that noone I know likes? Should we just call it the "Complete Affiliations"? Out of 158 pages, I will be lucky to salvage 25 pages worth of semi-useful material. A couple spells, a few feats, and maybe a magic item (if I fix it myself). Thank the gods that 3rd Ed is retiring!!! Any more books like this and it will die before it gets to the "old books' home"!

Am I wrong? Did I miss something? Is there a lot more I didn't see than half a hundred pages, prestige classes and all, devoted to organization affiliations? I think the rule is clunky and should have died with the DMG2. Oh... I forgot, more "sites as treasure" crap, too!

Hey Wizards!!! If this is the best you have left, you should have started 4th Ed last year!
Crash169
09-13-07, 05:17 PM Yea, I really didn't enjoy it either.

Too much on affiliations and all that garbage. They should have given an example of one, and let us fend for ourselves if we wanted to actually make one for every single god or church or organization.

The prestige classes are stupid, I think I hate them all.

The alternative class features were decent.. that's about it.
Meep326
09-13-07, 05:23 PM I'm in agreement here, the feats were poorly laid out, the affiliations were too numerous (should've been more like the ones in Cityscape, an example then detailing the typical benifits/drawbacks of being in a guild), the prestige classes were pretty stupid. All in all, I'm glad I borrowed a frieinds before I bought it.
Seeker95
09-13-07, 06:23 PM As a DM, I found the book useful in my world building.
As a player, I probably would have felt cheated.
PhaedrusXY
09-13-07, 06:25 PM Didn't WotC state that more and more, new 3.5 books will be focusing more on "fluff" rather than "crunch", so that they can maintain some usefulness for 4.0 games?
Jexil
09-13-07, 08:03 PM Thank the gods that 3rd Ed is retiring!!! Any more books like this and it will die before it gets to the "old books' home"!

Yes, I'm certain no useless splatbooks will ever be published again after 4th edition comes out.
zorgling25
09-13-07, 08:20 PM Yes, I'm certain no useless splatbooks will ever be published again after 4th edition comes out.

No, but it stands to reason that the past few splats have been sub-par in part because of the diversion of resources toward 4E.

I would expect a similar dip in product quality prior to 5E.
Despana
09-14-07, 04:33 AM Aw, come on, Complete Champion is a great book. I mean, they gave all paladins a feat to auto quicken their spells. There can't be anything wrong with that.:rolleyes:
Mister_Sinister
09-14-07, 06:03 AM That book is cheese in a can. Barbarians getting pounce at level 1, wizards being able to spontaneously cast all divinations (not all wizard divinations, not all arcane divinations, all divinations), and a prestige class that outstrips the paladin in everything possible. Literally. And breaks the cleric some more. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Seriously, this book is terrible.
Eater_Of_Souls
09-14-07, 07:32 AM As a player who likes playing mostly clerics and paladins the books is exellent and affiliations fit well with the clerical theme of getting involved in church affairs.
I also like having feats that offer something good for the clerics and paladins.
Besides the book says in the cover that it gives nothing for non-divine casters.
My only gripe is that the book is too centered on greyhawk so I have to change about everything in the text to make it fit on other campaing worlds.
Sunic_Flames
09-14-07, 07:56 AM As a player who likes playing mostly clerics and paladins the books is exellent and affiliations fit well with the clerical theme of getting involved in church affairs.
I also like having feats that offer something good for the clerics and paladins.
Besides the book says in the cover that it gives nothing for non-divine casters.
My only gripe is that the book is too centered on greyhawk so I have to change about everything in the text to make it fit on other campaing worlds.

There's a fair bit of stuff for non divine casters, though it does still often have a divine bent. For example:

Knowledge Devotion + Duskblade = win.
Seeker95
09-14-07, 08:31 AM and a prestige class that outstrips the paladin in everything possible. Literally.I have never had a paladin strip in any of my 29+ years of playing D&D. By what criteria do you measure "strip" such that you know this prestige class can "outstrip" (strip better? strip faster?) a paladin?

Perhaps the use of the word "literally" may have been inappropriate?
rkr1970
09-14-07, 08:53 AM Hey! There's good stuff in there. I love the new 0-level spell summon holy symbol! That should have been a no-brainer!! And there was... Um... Well, a couple of the feats seemed almost OK... Um... Sorry, dude! Ya shelled out $30 for an orison. I did too. But it is one very useful orison!!!

:banghead:
doppelganger
09-14-07, 09:32 AM I have never had a paladin strip in any of my 29+ years of playing D&D. By what criteria do you measure "strip" such that you know this prestige class can "outstrip" (strip better? strip faster?) a paladin?

Perhaps the use of the word "literally" may have been inappropriate?

I do not think the word 'outstrip' means only what you think it means. Perhaps it is your vocabulary skills that are lacking and Seeker95's use of the word "literally" was completely appropriate?
Despana
09-14-07, 10:39 AM I do not think the word 'outstrip' means only what you think it means. Perhaps it is your vocabulary skills that are lacking and Seeker95's use of the word "literally" was completely appropriate?

I'd say he knows exactly what it means, and does, in fact, have a point.

By the way, you may want to check again who is quoting who.
Wight_Chocolate
09-14-07, 10:58 AM Have I got the wrong end of the stick here, or the wrong stick altogether, or what?

"Outstrip" means "outdo." "Perform better than."
Vacerious
09-14-07, 12:30 PM No, but it stands to reason that the past few splats have been sub-par in part because of the diversion of resources toward 4E.

I would expect a similar dip in product quality prior to 5E.

Wait, did you just say?

I would expect a similar dip in product quality prior to 5E.

I think he just said...

5E.

It's official, this thread is now about 5E. JUST KIDDING! DON'T BAN ME!

Back to the topic on hand, as much as I love playing divine casters (CoDzilla ftw), this book left me very disappointed. There were a few thing I found that were potentially useful, but nothing I would jump for joy over.
Seeker95
09-14-07, 01:33 PM Have I got the wrong end of the stick here, or the wrong stick altogether, or what?

"Outstrip" means "outdo." "Perform better than."Outstrip has the verb 'strip' as its root.
To strip is to remove ones clothing.
Outstrip is symbolic for outdo or outperform.

The poster said the prestige class outstrips the paladin literally.
To apply a literal meaning to a symbolic term is the contradiction under examination.

Adding the disclaimer "literally" to any term is generally intended to juxtapose the normally symbolic with the literal, often in a case of irony. If someone carrying a cat in a bag drops the bag and the cat escapes, it is appropriate to say "you really let the cat out of the bag this time... literally!"

If we accept that the meaning of "outstrip" is "to surpass", independent of symbolism or non-literal root, it is either redundant or stating the obvious. In either case, it is unnecessary and worthy of comment by those of us who enjoy language.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
09-14-07, 01:40 PM It's the only D&D book that I ever returned.
Andyr
09-14-07, 01:54 PM Didn't WotC state that more and more, new 3.5 books will be focusing more on "fluff" rather than "crunch", so that they can maintain some usefulness for 4.0 games?

Only after Complete Champion was released, I think. I don't think any of the Complete X series are specifically meant to be useful for 4E games as well as 3.5E.
Wight_Chocolate
09-14-07, 01:58 PM Outstrip has the verb 'strip' as its root.
To strip is to remove ones clothing.
Outstrip is symbolic for outdo or outperform.

The poster said the prestige class outstrips the paladin literally.
To apply a literal meaning to a symbolic term is the contradiction under examination.

Adding the disclaimer "literally" to any term is generally intended to juxtapose the normally symbolic with the literal, often in a case of irony. If someone carrying a cat in a bag drops the bag and the cat escapes, it is appropriate to say "you really let the cat out of the bag this time... literally!"

If we accept that the meaning of "outstrip" is "to surpass", independent of symbolism or non-literal root, it is either redundant or stating the obvious. In either case, it is unnecessary and worthy of comment by those of us who enjoy language.

No, "outstrip" means "outdo" or "outperform". Look it up.

The "cat out of the bag" example works because "letting the cat out of the bag" is a metaphor. It is inherently symbolic. You can't apply the same rules to a word with a set definition.

Furthermore, to gauge the construction of the sentence, "literally" was being applied to the word "everything", not "outstrips."

Besides, if you're going to be pedantic, the term arose from a Middle English usage of "strip" meaning "to move quickly", so to apply the root directly, "outstrip" would literally mean "outrun".
wonlee76
09-14-07, 02:16 PM I probably have a lower standard then most here but I like the book in general as a DM. The organizations are helpful for a DM. I admit that maybe they overdid the organizations but considering some DMs don't have time to create their own, having several pre-made organizations is a time saver.

Some of the prestige classes are spiffy for PCs or NPCs. I guess my main complaint would be that the prestige classes are intertwined with the organizations in the earlier part of the book but it doesn't take a genius GM to make those prestige classes "generic." I'm a big fan of the Domain Devotion feats which just adds another layer of consideration when picking what domains a cleric should have.

Not the best Complete book in the series but I don't think its the worst book in the series either (Bleh to Complete Divine which holds the trophy for worst book followed closely by Complete Psionics).
Crash169
09-14-07, 02:49 PM Didn't WotC state that more and more, new 3.5 books will be focusing more on "fluff" rather than "crunch", so that they can maintain some usefulness for 4.0 games?

Yea they did... They had the space in this book for some crunch, and they used it. It's just that the crunchy things they used were like a cereal that got soggy real fast.

This book was released before the big 4E announcement. It would have been nice to know of all the sogginess and fluff before buying it.
zorgling25
09-14-07, 03:58 PM I also like having feats that offer something good for the clerics and paladins.

There are 2 issues with this.
1) After Complete Divine, Clerics were cheesy enough that they didn't NEED more good stuff.
2) I consider Crusader the new Paladin. This book offers nothing exciting for Crusaders. :P
High Octane
09-14-07, 04:00 PM I agree with the sentiment that 4e will be good for removing all the worthless splatbooks.

No I dont think worthless splatbooks will stop after 4e comes out, but at least all the past splatbooks will be wiped away. Right now I agree that the game is incredibly scattered and in many cases clogged with subpar material. m sure 4e will get the same issue after a few years.
Stormbrand
09-14-07, 04:04 PM Personally I found it a great resource.

Chapter 1 - Religion. The affiliations do what they are intended to - provide definate goals and systems for characters involved with religious organisations, including general frameworks to act as foundations for more specific new faiths.

Chapter 2 - Both good and bad. Does a fine job of making viable paladins with Holy Warrior variant (simpler yet more room to customise at once) as well as Domain feats (good use of Turn Undead much like Divine Feats). Tactical feats which make the most of the signature features of each divine class. Not everything is perfect, but there are some absolute gems for a divine character.

Chapters 3 and 4 were less useful to me, but had some variety.

The thing to remember is that Complete Champion is designed for a very narrow range of character concepts. No one else will get much use of it.
otakutaylor
09-14-07, 04:40 PM Umm... I liked the sactified one and the Fist of the forest...
The affiliations were kinda cool to read, albiet they probably could have done 3 examples and just gave us a "create an affiliation" chart.
The barbarian pounce was a bit much, but the rouges alternates were nice.
and umm...
I liked the pictures.

though I suppose that's not really enough to justify buying the whole book.

I still liked it though.
Kadasbrass
09-14-07, 05:03 PM The only thing I felt worthwild in the book was Healing Touch (reserve feat), which I could just remember on my own :rolleyes:

I am in part glade 3.5 has come to an end, not because I look forward to 4th, but because now the setting will be static and instead of looking for new stuff in new books I can focus on finding new stuff in old books. Not that that I didn't do it before, but that I don't get side track by new stuff. No more "Base class of the week club" :P
rkr1970
09-14-07, 05:33 PM I can understand the need to "fluff-ify" the book, but couldn't they have maybe mixed it up a bit more? I would love to have seen a section on cults and sects, little known or odd-ball groups devoted to a particular god.

Imagine a few paragraphs on an Olidammaran wine cult that seeks out powerful adventurers to secure exotic ingredients or individuals, like dragon blood or a particular type of grape-bound fey, for their next batch. Or a Peloran sect that fights undead in the field but celebrates all that is good in life, like wenching, drinking, and gambling, when not saving the world. How about a death cult of Wee Jas who feel it is their duty to protect the dead by hunting down necromancers? There could even be a sect of dwaves who go out into the world looking for rare or even mythical metals to work.

The number of druid/ranger PrC's seemed almost too much. They could have moved most of that stuff into a book devoted to woodland champions. I would have liked to see more variety in the PrC's, like more gods represented, specialty priests, and the like.

It just seems like it was thrown together. Some guys sat around spitballing ideas. All the good ones got passed on to the 4th Ed team. What was left was packaged as a half-hearted attempt at a splat book and dropped on an unsuspecting audience. It happens. If you look at the dreck that was released just before Wizards bought TSR, this is fairly-high-quality crap by comparison. At least Wizards didn't try to release "The Complete Book of One-Eyed Left-Handed Halfling Rogue/Mages of Eberron" before they killed the edition!!!
Eater_Of_Souls
09-15-07, 01:46 AM There are 2 issues with this.
1) After Complete Divine, Clerics were cheesy enough that they didn't NEED more good stuff.
2) I consider Crusader the new Paladin. This book offers nothing exciting for Crusaders. :P

TBH complite divine is even more useless then complite champion as complite divine is actually a "complite recycle from 3.0 to 3.5", especially when happen to you own defenders of the faith. :P
Allthough I use complite divine over DoF now because of the recycled classes & rules part (I use CoD as errata for DoF).

Complite champion has no recycled content (aside from rules and ideas) from the previous splat books which is good imho.
lulzapalooza
09-15-07, 03:34 PM TBH complite divine is even more useless then complite champion as complite divine is actually a "complite recycle from 3.0 to 3.5", especially when happen to you own defenders of the faith. :P
Allthough I use complite divine over DoF now because of the recycled classes & rules part (I use CoD as errata for DoF).

Complite champion has no recycled content (aside from rules and ideas) from the previous splat books which is good imho.

:confused:
TiwazTyrsfist
09-15-07, 07:02 PM Yeah, basically the only thing I liked in CoD was the Gray Gaurd. And then my internal Logic kicked in and pointed out that that reaction was the result of my internal munchkin.

There are a couple decent feats, and one really broken PrC.
And a lot of really poor quality fluff. I like good fluff. Just not this...
Artifact
09-15-07, 10:36 PM [Sorry, its best if I edit this post out. I didn't realize what I was referring to had quickly become a touchy subject.]
Eater_Of_Souls
09-16-07, 02:37 AM :confused:

DoF was a 3.0 book and complite divine took about everything in DoF word from word and updated it all to 3.5 and fixed prestige class descriptions.
If that isn't recycling old content I don't know what is.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rotten_Halfling 09-13-07, 03:07 PM	I just got my copy of Complete Champion. I have never regretted a D&D purchase more... And I bought a lot of Mongoose Publishing stuff!!! Is it just me, or is this a book devoted to optional rules that noone I know likes? Should we just call it the "Complete Affiliations"? Out of 158 pages, I will be lucky to salvage 25 pages worth of semi-useful material. A couple spells, a few feats, and maybe a magic item (if I fix it myself). Thank the gods that 3rd Ed is retiring!!! Any more books like this and it will die before it gets to the "old books' home"! Am I wrong? Did I miss something? Is there a lot more I didn't see than half a hundred pages, prestige classes and all, devoted to organization affiliations? I think the rule is clunky and should have died with the DMG2. Oh... I forgot, more "sites as treasure" crap, too! Hey Wizards!!! If this is the best you have left, you should have started 4th Ed last year!
Crash169 09-13-07, 05:17 PM	Yea, I really didn't enjoy it either. Too much on affiliations and all that garbage. They should have given an example of one, and let us fend for ourselves if we wanted to actually make one for every single god or church or organization. The prestige classes are stupid, I think I hate them all. The alternative class features were decent.. that's about it.
Meep326 09-13-07, 05:23 PM	I'm in agreement here, the feats were poorly laid out, the affiliations were too numerous (should've been more like the ones in Cityscape, an example then detailing the typical benifits/drawbacks of being in a guild), the prestige classes were pretty stupid. All in all, I'm glad I borrowed a frieinds before I bought it.
Seeker95 09-13-07, 06:23 PM	As a DM, I found the book useful in my world building. As a player, I probably would have felt cheated.
PhaedrusXY 09-13-07, 06:25 PM	Didn't WotC state that more and more, new 3.5 books will be focusing more on "fluff" rather than "crunch", so that they can maintain some usefulness for 4.0 games?
Jexil 09-13-07, 08:03 PM	Thank the gods that 3rd Ed is retiring!!! Any more books like this and it will die before it gets to the "old books' home"! Yes, I'm certain no useless splatbooks will ever be published again after 4th edition comes out.
zorgling25 09-13-07, 08:20 PM	Yes, I'm certain no useless splatbooks will ever be published again after 4th edition comes out. No, but it stands to reason that the past few splats have been sub-par in part because of the diversion of resources toward 4E. I would expect a similar dip in product quality prior to 5E.
Despana 09-14-07, 04:33 AM	Aw, come on, Complete Champion is a great book. I mean, they gave all paladins a feat to auto quicken their spells. There can't be anything wrong with that.:rolleyes:
Mister_Sinister 09-14-07, 06:03 AM	That book is cheese in a can. Barbarians getting pounce at level 1, wizards being able to spontaneously cast all divinations (not all wizard divinations, not all arcane divinations, all divinations), and a prestige class that outstrips the paladin in everything possible. Literally. And breaks the cleric some more. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Seriously, this book is terrible.
Eater_Of_Souls 09-14-07, 07:32 AM	As a player who likes playing mostly clerics and paladins the books is exellent and affiliations fit well with the clerical theme of getting involved in church affairs. I also like having feats that offer something good for the clerics and paladins. Besides the book says in the cover that it gives nothing for non-divine casters. My only gripe is that the book is too centered on greyhawk so I have to change about everything in the text to make it fit on other campaing worlds.
Sunic_Flames 09-14-07, 07:56 AM	As a player who likes playing mostly clerics and paladins the books is exellent and affiliations fit well with the clerical theme of getting involved in church affairs. I also like having feats that offer something good for the clerics and paladins. Besides the book says in the cover that it gives nothing for non-divine casters. My only gripe is that the book is too centered on greyhawk so I have to change about everything in the text to make it fit on other campaing worlds. There's a fair bit of stuff for non divine casters, though it does still often have a divine bent. For example: Knowledge Devotion + Duskblade = win.
Seeker95 09-14-07, 08:31 AM	and a prestige class that outstrips the paladin in everything possible. Literally.I have never had a paladin strip in any of my 29+ years of playing D&D. By what criteria do you measure "strip" such that you know this prestige class can "outstrip" (strip better? strip faster?) a paladin? Perhaps the use of the word "literally" may have been inappropriate?
rkr1970 09-14-07, 08:53 AM	Hey! There's good stuff in there. I love the new 0-level spell summon holy symbol! That should have been a no-brainer!! And there was... Um... Well, a couple of the feats seemed almost OK... Um... Sorry, dude! Ya shelled out $30 for an orison. I did too. But it is one very useful orison!!! :banghead:
doppelganger 09-14-07, 09:32 AM	I have never had a paladin strip in any of my 29+ years of playing D&D. By what criteria do you measure "strip" such that you know this prestige class can "outstrip" (strip better? strip faster?) a paladin? Perhaps the use of the word "literally" may have been inappropriate? I do not think the word 'outstrip' means only what you think it means. Perhaps it is your vocabulary skills that are lacking and Seeker95's use of the word "literally" was completely appropriate?
Despana 09-14-07, 10:39 AM	I do not think the word 'outstrip' means only what you think it means. Perhaps it is your vocabulary skills that are lacking and Seeker95's use of the word "literally" was completely appropriate? I'd say he knows exactly what it means, and does, in fact, have a point. By the way, you may want to check again who is quoting who.
Wight_Chocolate 09-14-07, 10:58 AM	Have I got the wrong end of the stick here, or the wrong stick altogether, or what? "Outstrip" means "outdo." "Perform better than."
Vacerious 09-14-07, 12:30 PM	No, but it stands to reason that the past few splats have been sub-par in part because of the diversion of resources toward 4E. I would expect a similar dip in product quality prior to 5E. Wait, did you just say? I would expect a similar dip in product quality prior to 5E. I think he just said... 5E. It's official, this thread is now about 5E. JUST KIDDING! DON'T BAN ME! Back to the topic on hand, as much as I love playing divine casters (CoDzilla ftw), this book left me very disappointed. There were a few thing I found that were potentially useful, but nothing I would jump for joy over.
Seeker95 09-14-07, 01:33 PM	Have I got the wrong end of the stick here, or the wrong stick altogether, or what? "Outstrip" means "outdo." "Perform better than."Outstrip has the verb 'strip' as its root. To strip is to remove ones clothing. Outstrip is symbolic for outdo or outperform. The poster said the prestige class outstrips the paladin literally. To apply a literal meaning to a symbolic term is the contradiction under examination. Adding the disclaimer "literally" to any term is generally intended to juxtapose the normally symbolic with the literal, often in a case of irony. If someone carrying a cat in a bag drops the bag and the cat escapes, it is appropriate to say "you really let the cat out of the bag this time... literally!" If we accept that the meaning of "outstrip" is "to surpass", independent of symbolism or non-literal root, it is either redundant or stating the obvious. In either case, it is unnecessary and worthy of comment by those of us who enjoy language.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-14-07, 01:40 PM	It's the only D&D book that I ever returned.
Andyr 09-14-07, 01:54 PM	Didn't WotC state that more and more, new 3.5 books will be focusing more on "fluff" rather than "crunch", so that they can maintain some usefulness for 4.0 games? Only after Complete Champion was released, I think. I don't think any of the Complete X series are specifically meant to be useful for 4E games as well as 3.5E.
Wight_Chocolate 09-14-07, 01:58 PM	Outstrip has the verb 'strip' as its root. To strip is to remove ones clothing. Outstrip is symbolic for outdo or outperform. The poster said the prestige class outstrips the paladin literally. To apply a literal meaning to a symbolic term is the contradiction under examination. Adding the disclaimer "literally" to any term is generally intended to juxtapose the normally symbolic with the literal, often in a case of irony. If someone carrying a cat in a bag drops the bag and the cat escapes, it is appropriate to say "you really let the cat out of the bag this time... literally!" If we accept that the meaning of "outstrip" is "to surpass", independent of symbolism or non-literal root, it is either redundant or stating the obvious. In either case, it is unnecessary and worthy of comment by those of us who enjoy language. No, "outstrip" means "outdo" or "outperform". Look it up. The "cat out of the bag" example works because "letting the cat out of the bag" is a metaphor. It is inherently symbolic. You can't apply the same rules to a word with a set definition. Furthermore, to gauge the construction of the sentence, "literally" was being applied to the word "everything", not "outstrips." Besides, if you're going to be pedantic, the term arose from a Middle English usage of "strip" meaning "to move quickly", so to apply the root directly, "outstrip" would literally mean "outrun".
wonlee76 09-14-07, 02:16 PM	I probably have a lower standard then most here but I like the book in general as a DM. The organizations are helpful for a DM. I admit that maybe they overdid the organizations but considering some DMs don't have time to create their own, having several pre-made organizations is a time saver. Some of the prestige classes are spiffy for PCs or NPCs. I guess my main complaint would be that the prestige classes are intertwined with the organizations in the earlier part of the book but it doesn't take a genius GM to make those prestige classes "generic." I'm a big fan of the Domain Devotion feats which just adds another layer of consideration when picking what domains a cleric should have. Not the best Complete book in the series but I don't think its the worst book in the series either (Bleh to Complete Divine which holds the trophy for worst book followed closely by Complete Psionics).
Crash169 09-14-07, 02:49 PM	Didn't WotC state that more and more, new 3.5 books will be focusing more on "fluff" rather than "crunch", so that they can maintain some usefulness for 4.0 games? Yea they did... They had the space in this book for some crunch, and they used it. It's just that the crunchy things they used were like a cereal that got soggy real fast. This book was released before the big 4E announcement. It would have been nice to know of all the sogginess and fluff before buying it.
zorgling25 09-14-07, 03:58 PM	I also like having feats that offer something good for the clerics and paladins. There are 2 issues with this. 1) After Complete Divine, Clerics were cheesy enough that they didn't NEED more good stuff. 2) I consider Crusader the new Paladin. This book offers nothing exciting for Crusaders. :P
High Octane 09-14-07, 04:00 PM	I agree with the sentiment that 4e will be good for removing all the worthless splatbooks. No I dont think worthless splatbooks will stop after 4e comes out, but at least all the past splatbooks will be wiped away. Right now I agree that the game is incredibly scattered and in many cases clogged with subpar material. m sure 4e will get the same issue after a few years.
Stormbrand 09-14-07, 04:04 PM	Personally I found it a great resource. Chapter 1 - Religion. The affiliations do what they are intended to - provide definate goals and systems for characters involved with religious organisations, including general frameworks to act as foundations for more specific new faiths. Chapter 2 - Both good and bad. Does a fine job of making viable paladins with Holy Warrior variant (simpler yet more room to customise at once) as well as Domain feats (good use of Turn Undead much like Divine Feats). Tactical feats which make the most of the signature features of each divine class. Not everything is perfect, but there are some absolute gems for a divine character. Chapters 3 and 4 were less useful to me, but had some variety. The thing to remember is that Complete Champion is designed for a very narrow range of character concepts. No one else will get much use of it.
otakutaylor 09-14-07, 04:40 PM	Umm... I liked the sactified one and the Fist of the forest... The affiliations were kinda cool to read, albiet they probably could have done 3 examples and just gave us a "create an affiliation" chart. The barbarian pounce was a bit much, but the rouges alternates were nice. and umm... I liked the pictures. though I suppose that's not really enough to justify buying the whole book. I still liked it though.
Kadasbrass 09-14-07, 05:03 PM	The only thing I felt worthwild in the book was Healing Touch (reserve feat), which I could just remember on my own :rolleyes: I am in part glade 3.5 has come to an end, not because I look forward to 4th, but because now the setting will be static and instead of looking for new stuff in new books I can focus on finding new stuff in old books. Not that that I didn't do it before, but that I don't get side track by new stuff. No more "Base class of the week club" :P
rkr1970 09-14-07, 05:33 PM	I can understand the need to "fluff-ify" the book, but couldn't they have maybe mixed it up a bit more? I would love to have seen a section on cults and sects, little known or odd-ball groups devoted to a particular god. Imagine a few paragraphs on an Olidammaran wine cult that seeks out powerful adventurers to secure exotic ingredients or individuals, like dragon blood or a particular type of grape-bound fey, for their next batch. Or a Peloran sect that fights undead in the field but celebrates all that is good in life, like wenching, drinking, and gambling, when not saving the world. How about a death cult of Wee Jas who feel it is their duty to protect the dead by hunting down necromancers? There could even be a sect of dwaves who go out into the world looking for rare or even mythical metals to work. The number of druid/ranger PrC's seemed almost too much. They could have moved most of that stuff into a book devoted to woodland champions. I would have liked to see more variety in the PrC's, like more gods represented, specialty priests, and the like. It just seems like it was thrown together. Some guys sat around spitballing ideas. All the good ones got passed on to the 4th Ed team. What was left was packaged as a half-hearted attempt at a splat book and dropped on an unsuspecting audience. It happens. If you look at the dreck that was released just before Wizards bought TSR, this is fairly-high-quality crap by comparison. At least Wizards didn't try to release "The Complete Book of One-Eyed Left-Handed Halfling Rogue/Mages of Eberron" before they killed the edition!!!
Eater_Of_Souls 09-15-07, 01:46 AM	There are 2 issues with this. 1) After Complete Divine, Clerics were cheesy enough that they didn't NEED more good stuff. 2) I consider Crusader the new Paladin. This book offers nothing exciting for Crusaders. :P TBH complite divine is even more useless then complite champion as complite divine is actually a "complite recycle from 3.0 to 3.5", especially when happen to you own defenders of the faith. :P Allthough I use complite divine over DoF now because of the recycled classes & rules part (I use CoD as errata for DoF). Complite champion has no recycled content (aside from rules and ideas) from the previous splat books which is good imho.
lulzapalooza 09-15-07, 03:34 PM	TBH complite divine is even more useless then complite champion as complite divine is actually a "complite recycle from 3.0 to 3.5", especially when happen to you own defenders of the faith. :P Allthough I use complite divine over DoF now because of the recycled classes & rules part (I use CoD as errata for DoF). Complite champion has no recycled content (aside from rules and ideas) from the previous splat books which is good imho. :confused:
TiwazTyrsfist 09-15-07, 07:02 PM	Yeah, basically the only thing I liked in CoD was the Gray Gaurd. And then my internal Logic kicked in and pointed out that that reaction was the result of my internal munchkin. There are a couple decent feats, and one really broken PrC. And a lot of really poor quality fluff. I like good fluff. Just not this...
Artifact 09-15-07, 10:36 PM	[Sorry, its best if I edit this post out. I didn't realize what I was referring to had quickly become a touchy subject.]
Eater_Of_Souls 09-16-07, 02:37 AM	:confused: DoF was a 3.0 book and complite divine took about everything in DoF word from word and updated it all to 3.5 and fixed prestige class descriptions. If that isn't recycling old content I don't know what is.