Complete What? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Complete What? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tyler Do'Urden
08-14-05, 02:10 AM They really should've called it Complete Mage.

Complete Warrior. Fine. Warriors are nouns. Warriors can be complete.
Complete Adventurer. Great. Also completable nouns.
Complete Arcane. ...say what? Arcane is an adjective. Modifying an adjective by an adjective doesn't work. That's what adverbs are for. But then it'd be Completely Arcane, which really turns off new players who think the rules are too complicated. They'll pick up the book, point at the title and say, "See? I told you!"

So we'd need a noun, better yet a person-type noun, that means "arcane spellcaster." We can't just call it Complete Arcane Spellcaster; it won't fit on the book. Can't say Wizard, that leaves out sorcerers, hexblades, warlocks, and bards. Non-wizard players will feel slighted.

"Magic-User" is, and always was, flavorless and lame.

So what's left? Shaman? No, that's a class. Magician? Neh, to Segfried and Roy. Magus? Hmm... might be on to something. Sounds kinda old-timey though. What's a more modern version of that?

...Mage.

Complete Warrior? Complete Mage. Short, sweet, and gramatically correct.

Actually, Complete Magician would've been fine if it didn't sound so third-party. Idunno what you would've called Complete Divine, though. The title is just as stupid as Complete Arcane, but I can't think of anything better. Complete Priest is no good because that doesn't really include druids, rangers, and paladins. Not really. Complete Faithful, but that's still an adjective (in most cases).

Complete Worshipper? Complete Penitent? Complete Praying-type Person? Completely Devoted To (the) God(s)!

Don't mind me. Just trying to occupy a few more minutes of my time on this planet.
Tyler Do'Urden
08-14-05, 02:11 AM Oh, and the psionic one should definately be called Complete Mindbender. Tell me it doesn't sound awesome.
Vaelan
08-14-05, 02:38 AM There is a Prestige Class called Mindbender in Complete Arcane. Further, Mindbender implies that you bend the minds of others, which psionics doesn't do very well or even very much of.
Tyler Do'Urden
08-14-05, 02:52 AM How about Spoonbender then?
murderbike
08-14-05, 02:53 AM Actually, "divine" can be a noun: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=divine
Tenzhi
08-14-05, 02:59 AM Complete Arcane. ...say what? Arcane is an adjective.

I dunno. In D&D you can study and have knowledge of the arcane. It seems to find usage as a noun referring to all things magical.
murderbike
08-14-05, 03:03 AM There's always "arcanist."
Anthus_Longblade
08-14-05, 07:52 PM In this context the noun is implied. "Complete Arcane" can be read "A complete compendium of that which is arcane." The same goes for Complete Divine.
Ranger REG
08-14-05, 08:32 PM Maybe WotC should make book tailored for you, Complete Editor.

:P
Tyler Do'Urden
08-14-05, 08:40 PM Maybe WotC should make book tailored for you, Complete Editor.

:P

At least I'm not a Complete Loser. :P

OH, SNAP!!! :D
Tyler Do'Urden
08-14-05, 08:59 PM How 'bout this?

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/FacelessSchmuck/absolut.jpg
Ranger REG
08-15-05, 02:55 AM At least I'm not a Complete Loser. :P
Nah, but Complete Doof is more fitting for you. :devil:
Lord Ian Stark
08-15-05, 03:24 AM How 'bout this?

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/FacelessSchmuck/absolut.jpg

LOL
caeruleus
08-15-05, 04:40 AM Warriors are nouns.

Warriors are people. 'Warrior' is a noun.
Arrowhen
08-15-05, 05:29 AM Warriors are people. 'Warrior' is a noun.
Yes, but people are nouns. Therefore, warriors are nouns as well.
Solaris
08-15-05, 07:52 AM Yes, but people are nouns. Therefore, warriors are nouns as well.

A noun is a part of speech, or a word belonging to that part of speech. The previous poster was correct: the words "warrior" and "warriors" are nouns, But warriors themselves, being neither words nor parts of speech, are not nouns. Nouns may name people, but people are not nouns.
anarco_rata
08-15-05, 10:23 AM Yes, but people are nouns. Therefore, warriors are nouns as well.
:heehee
Arcane can be used as a Noun too. "The arcane" is everything concerning the arts of magic, from knowledge to caster, however, complete mages sounds a lot bettar than complete arcane
ps: why do you people like flame wars so much?
Tyler Do'Urden
08-15-05, 09:29 PM :heehee
Arcane can be used as a Noun too. "The arcane" is everything concerning the arts of magic, from knowledge to caster, however, complete mages sounds a lot bettar than complete arcane
ps: why do you people like flame wars so much?

Yeah, but "the arcane" is like "the deaf." It can mean a group of people or things that possess that quality, but that doesn't make Arcane by itself a noun any more than it makes deaf a noun. Like you couldn't walk into a magic shop and say "I'd like some arcane, please."
"...some arcane what?"
"Nono, just some arcane. I need it."
"I don't understand, sir."
"This is a magic shop, isn't it?"
"Yes, but-"
"Then give me some damnable arcane before I run you through."
"I, but, it's not-... I'll have to speak to the archmage."
kid satan
08-15-05, 09:46 PM I'm truly impressed by the amount of time people have to endlessly debate the irrelevant and mundane. Oh my, two adjectives in a row. Hurry hurry, somebody start a thread about it. :rolleyes:
anarco_rata
08-15-05, 10:54 PM irrelevant and mundane are articles! cuz: blha, blha, blha
-_-
anyhow... i think the arcane is lie saying science, it compasses everything, but ho well, think what you want, nobody's gona correct the title anyway ^^ that would be expensive...maybe for D&d 3.75
WizO_Cat
08-15-05, 11:01 PM Ayup. Let's get back on topic. Thanks.
caeruleus
08-16-05, 03:16 AM As murderbike said, 'divine' can be a noun. The designers probably intended to use 'arcane' in the same manner. It's fantasy, they can easily make stuff up like that. Like Libris Mortis. ;)
Kintara
08-16-05, 03:41 AM The reason Arcane was used was probably because there wasn't a good word to replace Divine with. Arcane and Divine magic. Complete Arcanist would be fine, but Complete Diviner is misleading. Besides, they're already redefining what "arcane" means. Arcane, in this context, means the non-divine half of magic in D&D, and vice versa for divine magic.
anarco_rata
08-16-05, 09:27 AM kintara just said what i have been trying to explain ^^ thank you
Amaril
08-16-05, 12:08 PM We're nitpicking about the titles that are character types (Warrior and Adventurer) instead of subjects (Divine and Arcane)? I think it should be Complete Combat, Complete Adventure, Complete Arcane, and Complete Divine.

Not really; I actually think it's fine as is, because the title doesn't change my game of make-believe any.

Oh, and Complete Psionic is fine as it is.
Arrowhen
08-16-05, 12:35 PM All four should have been combined into one book and called Player's Handbook II.
Amaril
08-16-05, 12:43 PM All four should have been combined into one book and called Player's Handbook II.
Except Prestige Classes aren't found in the Player's Handbook.
Arrowhen
08-16-05, 01:04 PM Except Prestige Classes aren't found in the Player's Handbook.
No, but these days they might as well be, since 90% of WotC's products are marketed as 'kewl goodies for players to demand their DMs include in their campaigns'.
Ranger REG
08-16-05, 05:31 PM Perhaps, but as a DM, I'm not ready to give players the option as standard rules that I may want to take away.
Arrowhen
08-16-05, 06:13 PM Agreed. It was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the sense of "but WotC put it in a book; you HAVE to let me use it!" player entitlement attitude one sees so often.
primemover003
08-16-05, 07:22 PM Agreed. It was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the sense of "but WotC put it in a book; you HAVE to let me use it!" player entitlement attitude one sees so often.
Oh yeah I get this one a lot... I don't use anything other than WotC books and one of my players thinks that because of this I automatically allow everything in them.

We were arguing over the Orb spells (which I think are in the wrong school). So I said, next Campaign I'm changing them... he said that wasn't right. I said neither was a Mage being able to take out a golem (it's really a challenge for the tanks) or being able to Bypass High SR (another pet peeve) with assay resistance or lower spell resist. Might as well just face a goblin if you take away all the things that make monsters harder to kill.
Mordmorgan the Mad
08-16-05, 07:27 PM At least I'm not a Complete Loser. :P

OH, SNAP!!! :D
You need a girl, mate. :D
Tyler Do'Urden
08-17-05, 12:57 AM You need a girl, mate. :D

Nono, I got one. It's just that she sleeps.
Sir Knight
08-17-05, 07:28 AM Issues... ya'll have issues. Hey, "Complete Issues: A Guide to Gamers" :)

This thread was lighthearted and great. Glad everyone had a sense of humor and kept it clean. Very cool all!
Lord Ian Stark
08-17-05, 09:34 AM Nono, I got one. It's just that she sleeps.

Using ether or other chemical substances to "knock" someone is illegal. However it is usefull for when the mute button on the T.V. remote fails to do its mission when pointed at your signifigant other.

To stay on topic I like the Complete books series name just fine. I'm just wondering what WOTC will start puting out now that the races, Complete's, magics books are all done. :confused:
Amaril
08-17-05, 10:40 AM I'm just wondering what WOTC will start puting out now that the races, Complete's, magics books are all done. :confused:
Who says they're all done?
anarco_rata
08-17-05, 10:51 AM I picture another enviroment book, mountains, forest and grass deserts (plains) are probably around WoTC's mind (maybe not the last one, but i would like to since in my world there's a big one).
races? i think that one is finished.
complete? there's still the complete psionics books to realease, and then, the complete incarnum (or whatever) will probably come in a (not too soon) future. I would like to see a complete NPC ^^
btw, who plans on buying magic of incarnum (or whatever, i don't seem to be able ot recall the name)
Amaril
08-17-05, 11:09 AM I picture another enviroment book, mountains, forest and grass deserts (plains) are probably around WoTC's mind (maybe not the last one, but i would like to since in my world there's a big one).
races? i think that one is finished.
complete? there's still the complete psionics books to realease, and then, the complete incarnum (or whatever) will probably come in a (not too soon) future. I would like to see a complete NPC ^^
btw, who plans on buying magic of incarnum (or whatever, i don't seem to be able ot recall the name)
I was considering Magic of Incarnum, but not for my current Greyhawk campaign. If I use it, it will be for a completely new campaign, possibly incorporated into Eberron or as a means to springboard ideas for a first attempt at a homebrew. It would be interesting to have a campaign with Psionics and Incarnum as its dichotomy instead of Arcane and Divine.
Tyler Do'Urden
08-17-05, 04:05 PM Using ether or other chemical substances to "knock" someone is illegal. However it is usefull for when the mute button on the T.V. remote fails to do its mission when pointed at your signifigant other.

Nonono... see, she's not into D&D. She likes roleplaying, but hates the d20 system. But her work schedule is different from mine, so I just wait 'til she falls asleep to come on these boards and waste a few hours. But that doesn't work, so I have this special chloroform pillow I invented. It's great.

She's awake for everything else though.

*ahem*

And she recently informed me that "I'd buy a book called Completely Arcane. If nothing else, so I could read some of the rules and go, 'It sure is!' "

They ought to do a book about exploring ancient dungeons and old ruins, called Completely Ruined.
Ranger REG
08-17-05, 04:59 PM Who says they're all done?
Damn. :nonono:
Amaril
08-17-05, 05:02 PM Damn. :nonono:
I think that's your favorite smiley, RR.
Ranger REG
08-17-05, 05:21 PM Nah, it's this:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_15.gif
anarco_rata
08-17-05, 08:37 PM They ought to do a book about exploring ancient dungeons and old ruins, called Completely Ruined.
That would be about gamers then :D
Tyler Do'Urden
08-18-05, 12:25 AM That would be about gamers then :D

You sure it wouldn't be Complete Losers?

DOUBLE SNAP!!!
anarco_rata
08-18-05, 10:24 AM i think completely ruined defines more the current, everyday d&d player. If you consider yourself a loser then you might wanna try buying a self-improvement book instead of a complete book.
Fargren
08-18-05, 02:12 PM i think completely ruined defines more the current, everyday d&d player. If you consider yourself a loser then you might wanna try buying a self-improvement book instead of a complete book.
Complete self-improvement: a guide to cheap psicology for all losers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tyler Do'Urden 08-14-05, 02:10 AM	They really should've called it Complete Mage. Complete Warrior. Fine. Warriors are nouns. Warriors can be complete. Complete Adventurer. Great. Also completable nouns. Complete Arcane. ...say what? Arcane is an adjective. Modifying an adjective by an adjective doesn't work. That's what adverbs are for. But then it'd be Completely Arcane, which really turns off new players who think the rules are too complicated. They'll pick up the book, point at the title and say, "See? I told you!" So we'd need a noun, better yet a person-type noun, that means "arcane spellcaster." We can't just call it Complete Arcane Spellcaster; it won't fit on the book. Can't say Wizard, that leaves out sorcerers, hexblades, warlocks, and bards. Non-wizard players will feel slighted. "Magic-User" is, and always was, flavorless and lame. So what's left? Shaman? No, that's a class. Magician? Neh, to Segfried and Roy. Magus? Hmm... might be on to something. Sounds kinda old-timey though. What's a more modern version of that? ...Mage. Complete Warrior? Complete Mage. Short, sweet, and gramatically correct. Actually, Complete Magician would've been fine if it didn't sound so third-party. Idunno what you would've called Complete Divine, though. The title is just as stupid as Complete Arcane, but I can't think of anything better. Complete Priest is no good because that doesn't really include druids, rangers, and paladins. Not really. Complete Faithful, but that's still an adjective (in most cases). Complete Worshipper? Complete Penitent? Complete Praying-type Person? Completely Devoted To (the) God(s)! Don't mind me. Just trying to occupy a few more minutes of my time on this planet.
Tyler Do'Urden 08-14-05, 02:11 AM	Oh, and the psionic one should definately be called Complete Mindbender. Tell me it doesn't sound awesome.
Vaelan 08-14-05, 02:38 AM	There is a Prestige Class called Mindbender in Complete Arcane. Further, Mindbender implies that you bend the minds of others, which psionics doesn't do very well or even very much of.
Tyler Do'Urden 08-14-05, 02:52 AM	How about Spoonbender then?
murderbike 08-14-05, 02:53 AM	Actually, "divine" can be a noun: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=divine
Tenzhi 08-14-05, 02:59 AM	Complete Arcane. ...say what? Arcane is an adjective. I dunno. In D&D you can study and have knowledge of the arcane. It seems to find usage as a noun referring to all things magical.
murderbike 08-14-05, 03:03 AM	There's always "arcanist."
Anthus_Longblade 08-14-05, 07:52 PM	In this context the noun is implied. "Complete Arcane" can be read "A complete compendium of that which is arcane." The same goes for Complete Divine.
Ranger REG 08-14-05, 08:32 PM	Maybe WotC should make book tailored for you, Complete Editor. :P
Tyler Do'Urden 08-14-05, 08:40 PM	Maybe WotC should make book tailored for you, Complete Editor. :P At least I'm not a Complete Loser. :P OH, SNAP!!! :D
Tyler Do'Urden 08-14-05, 08:59 PM	How 'bout this? http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/FacelessSchmuck/absolut.jpg
Ranger REG 08-15-05, 02:55 AM	At least I'm not a Complete Loser. :P Nah, but Complete Doof is more fitting for you. :devil:
Lord Ian Stark 08-15-05, 03:24 AM	How 'bout this? http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/FacelessSchmuck/absolut.jpg LOL
caeruleus 08-15-05, 04:40 AM	Warriors are nouns. Warriors are people. 'Warrior' is a noun.
Arrowhen 08-15-05, 05:29 AM	Warriors are people. 'Warrior' is a noun. Yes, but people are nouns. Therefore, warriors are nouns as well.
Solaris 08-15-05, 07:52 AM	Yes, but people are nouns. Therefore, warriors are nouns as well. A noun is a part of speech, or a word belonging to that part of speech. The previous poster was correct: the words "warrior" and "warriors" are nouns, But warriors themselves, being neither words nor parts of speech, are not nouns. Nouns may name people, but people are not nouns.
anarco_rata 08-15-05, 10:23 AM	Yes, but people are nouns. Therefore, warriors are nouns as well. :heehee Arcane can be used as a Noun too. "The arcane" is everything concerning the arts of magic, from knowledge to caster, however, complete mages sounds a lot bettar than complete arcane ps: why do you people like flame wars so much?
Tyler Do'Urden 08-15-05, 09:29 PM	:heehee Arcane can be used as a Noun too. "The arcane" is everything concerning the arts of magic, from knowledge to caster, however, complete mages sounds a lot bettar than complete arcane ps: why do you people like flame wars so much? Yeah, but "the arcane" is like "the deaf." It can mean a group of people or things that possess that quality, but that doesn't make Arcane by itself a noun any more than it makes deaf a noun. Like you couldn't walk into a magic shop and say "I'd like some arcane, please." "...some arcane what?" "Nono, just some arcane. I need it." "I don't understand, sir." "This is a magic shop, isn't it?" "Yes, but-" "Then give me some damnable arcane before I run you through." "I, but, it's not-... I'll have to speak to the archmage."
kid satan 08-15-05, 09:46 PM	I'm truly impressed by the amount of time people have to endlessly debate the irrelevant and mundane. Oh my, two adjectives in a row. Hurry hurry, somebody start a thread about it. :rolleyes:
anarco_rata 08-15-05, 10:54 PM	irrelevant and mundane are articles! cuz: blha, blha, blha -_- anyhow... i think the arcane is lie saying science, it compasses everything, but ho well, think what you want, nobody's gona correct the title anyway ^^ that would be expensive...maybe for D&d 3.75
WizO_Cat 08-15-05, 11:01 PM	Ayup. Let's get back on topic. Thanks.
caeruleus 08-16-05, 03:16 AM	As murderbike said, 'divine' can be a noun. The designers probably intended to use 'arcane' in the same manner. It's fantasy, they can easily make stuff up like that. Like Libris Mortis. ;)
Kintara 08-16-05, 03:41 AM	The reason Arcane was used was probably because there wasn't a good word to replace Divine with. Arcane and Divine magic. Complete Arcanist would be fine, but Complete Diviner is misleading. Besides, they're already redefining what "arcane" means. Arcane, in this context, means the non-divine half of magic in D&D, and vice versa for divine magic.
anarco_rata 08-16-05, 09:27 AM	kintara just said what i have been trying to explain ^^ thank you
Amaril 08-16-05, 12:08 PM	We're nitpicking about the titles that are character types (Warrior and Adventurer) instead of subjects (Divine and Arcane)? I think it should be Complete Combat, Complete Adventure, Complete Arcane, and Complete Divine. Not really; I actually think it's fine as is, because the title doesn't change my game of make-believe any. Oh, and Complete Psionic is fine as it is.
Arrowhen 08-16-05, 12:35 PM	All four should have been combined into one book and called Player's Handbook II.
Amaril 08-16-05, 12:43 PM	All four should have been combined into one book and called Player's Handbook II. Except Prestige Classes aren't found in the Player's Handbook.
Arrowhen 08-16-05, 01:04 PM	Except Prestige Classes aren't found in the Player's Handbook. No, but these days they might as well be, since 90% of WotC's products are marketed as 'kewl goodies for players to demand their DMs include in their campaigns'.
Ranger REG 08-16-05, 05:31 PM	Perhaps, but as a DM, I'm not ready to give players the option as standard rules that I may want to take away.
Arrowhen 08-16-05, 06:13 PM	Agreed. It was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the sense of "but WotC put it in a book; you HAVE to let me use it!" player entitlement attitude one sees so often.
primemover003 08-16-05, 07:22 PM	Agreed. It was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the sense of "but WotC put it in a book; you HAVE to let me use it!" player entitlement attitude one sees so often. Oh yeah I get this one a lot... I don't use anything other than WotC books and one of my players thinks that because of this I automatically allow everything in them. We were arguing over the Orb spells (which I think are in the wrong school). So I said, next Campaign I'm changing them... he said that wasn't right. I said neither was a Mage being able to take out a golem (it's really a challenge for the tanks) or being able to Bypass High SR (another pet peeve) with assay resistance or lower spell resist. Might as well just face a goblin if you take away all the things that make monsters harder to kill.
Mordmorgan the Mad 08-16-05, 07:27 PM	At least I'm not a Complete Loser. :P OH, SNAP!!! :D You need a girl, mate. :D
Tyler Do'Urden 08-17-05, 12:57 AM	You need a girl, mate. :D Nono, I got one. It's just that she sleeps.
Sir Knight 08-17-05, 07:28 AM	Issues... ya'll have issues. Hey, "Complete Issues: A Guide to Gamers" :) This thread was lighthearted and great. Glad everyone had a sense of humor and kept it clean. Very cool all!
Lord Ian Stark 08-17-05, 09:34 AM	Nono, I got one. It's just that she sleeps. Using ether or other chemical substances to "knock" someone is illegal. However it is usefull for when the mute button on the T.V. remote fails to do its mission when pointed at your signifigant other. To stay on topic I like the Complete books series name just fine. I'm just wondering what WOTC will start puting out now that the races, Complete's, magics books are all done. :confused:
Amaril 08-17-05, 10:40 AM	I'm just wondering what WOTC will start puting out now that the races, Complete's, magics books are all done. :confused: Who says they're all done?
anarco_rata 08-17-05, 10:51 AM	I picture another enviroment book, mountains, forest and grass deserts (plains) are probably around WoTC's mind (maybe not the last one, but i would like to since in my world there's a big one). races? i think that one is finished. complete? there's still the complete psionics books to realease, and then, the complete incarnum (or whatever) will probably come in a (not too soon) future. I would like to see a complete NPC ^^ btw, who plans on buying magic of incarnum (or whatever, i don't seem to be able ot recall the name)
Amaril 08-17-05, 11:09 AM	I picture another enviroment book, mountains, forest and grass deserts (plains) are probably around WoTC's mind (maybe not the last one, but i would like to since in my world there's a big one). races? i think that one is finished. complete? there's still the complete psionics books to realease, and then, the complete incarnum (or whatever) will probably come in a (not too soon) future. I would like to see a complete NPC ^^ btw, who plans on buying magic of incarnum (or whatever, i don't seem to be able ot recall the name) I was considering Magic of Incarnum, but not for my current Greyhawk campaign. If I use it, it will be for a completely new campaign, possibly incorporated into Eberron or as a means to springboard ideas for a first attempt at a homebrew. It would be interesting to have a campaign with Psionics and Incarnum as its dichotomy instead of Arcane and Divine.
Tyler Do'Urden 08-17-05, 04:05 PM	Using ether or other chemical substances to "knock" someone is illegal. However it is usefull for when the mute button on the T.V. remote fails to do its mission when pointed at your signifigant other. Nonono... see, she's not into D&D. She likes roleplaying, but hates the d20 system. But her work schedule is different from mine, so I just wait 'til she falls asleep to come on these boards and waste a few hours. But that doesn't work, so I have this special chloroform pillow I invented. It's great. She's awake for everything else though. ahem And she recently informed me that "I'd buy a book called Completely Arcane. If nothing else, so I could read some of the rules and go, 'It sure is!' " They ought to do a book about exploring ancient dungeons and old ruins, called Completely Ruined.
Ranger REG 08-17-05, 04:59 PM	Who says they're all done? Damn. :nonono:
Amaril 08-17-05, 05:02 PM	Damn. :nonono: I think that's your favorite smiley, RR.
Ranger REG 08-17-05, 05:21 PM	Nah, it's this: http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_15.gif
anarco_rata 08-17-05, 08:37 PM	They ought to do a book about exploring ancient dungeons and old ruins, called Completely Ruined. That would be about gamers then :D
Tyler Do'Urden 08-18-05, 12:25 AM	That would be about gamers then :D You sure it wouldn't be Complete Losers? DOUBLE SNAP!!!
anarco_rata 08-18-05, 10:24 AM	i think completely ruined defines more the current, everyday d&d player. If you consider yourself a loser then you might wanna try buying a self-improvement book instead of a complete book.
Fargren 08-18-05, 02:12 PM	i think completely ruined defines more the current, everyday d&d player. If you consider yourself a loser then you might wanna try buying a self-improvement book instead of a complete book. Complete self-improvement: a guide to cheap psicology for all losers.