completely demotivated [Archive] - Wizards Community

completely demotivated [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
algritz
10-25-04, 11:10 PM I am (or was, still not sure if I'll keep DM) DM a game.

The concept wasn't easy at all, not every DM would want to run such a game.

I'll explain briefly :
It's a Drow game run in Sshamath. I had two major objective in that game;

1 - I wanted the player to work together, to protect together, just like good character would do, despite the fact they are all evil. For that I had devised a magical headband, that they were wearing all the time. that headband gave them constant telepathy between all the players. The trick is that the headband "let go" EVERYTHING even their most inner thoughts, so the players knows everything about what the other players thinks all the times, somewhat limiting their willinness to stab one's back...

2- I wanted to put the emphasis on something the drow have in abundance versus humans : TIME. A drow can spend centuries devising a plan, a human can only afford a few dozen of years. So I somewhat expected and did planned things in order to for them to rebel on their master. I wanted to have them spent lot of time planning how they would rebel againts their master and ultimately defeat him. Curently they are outmatched, as they started the game as level 1 Gestalt Characters. My BBEG is level 18.

With that In mind I strongly (maybe too much) enforced the fact that they had to work as a team and that they cannot deafeat my NPCs, as they are out of their league.

I also had a lot of stuff planed ahead, I have writtent about 13 chapters so far. Unfortunalety some of the players didn't pay any attention to these plot as their character had no other reason to do these "mission" other than "do it or else...". It was done on purpose, I wanted the PC to rebel.... So I had to "force" them back on the track of the story.

Now my problem is I have some players saying the game $ucked.. They love their character but the game itself, wasn't enjoyable. they haven't seen the ultimate objective I wanted them to be part of.

It's like if for some reason I cannot change the nature of a drow (which I somewhat expected) but also that I cannot completely get my players to think like a drow and plan a LONG time ahead, their human nature makes them want what they want NOW.

Was my concept doomed to fail ? Have I failed ? Or is it my players that failed me ?

Some of the players wants me to keep the game running but needs the following thing in order to continue; get rid of teh headband. And I must make my "overpowerful" NPCs (whom are in fact my BBEG) disappear. Also they don't want me to plan the story ahead. they would rather have me plan one game at a time. Some of the other on the other hand wants them to stay, but also agree that I should be a little bit less firm in the control of the story. (they do understand that some direction is needed, but not outrageously). These one don't care if the story is planned.

With that said; I feel demotivated.... do I keep the game running ? If I do, do I keep planning things like I did before ? I can be less controlling about the story, my npcs can get nerfed I can get rid of the headband, but that would kill the concept... what should I do ?

All this story look to me like a "you know, you write real good plots and story, but jezzz... you $uck as a DM..."

I like DM, I love even more writing stories for games. But if I cannot DM them I can't play them as weel as I know all the answers to the plot ? Am I doomed to be a player for ever ?

is that it ?

I like both (be player and dm) if I cannot do both of them (I tend to alternate) I'd rather not play at all...

a really demotivated player.... :(
yojimbo99
10-25-04, 11:44 PM Ok, try to get rid of the head bands, but use something else that isn't quite as restrictive. Try a 4 part key or whatever, something that keeps them from each others throats, but doesn't force them to play their characters in such an unnaturual(can't spell, sorry) manner. Keep them loosely bonded.
Bort333
10-25-04, 11:52 PM Ok you said you've wrote 13 chapters...

You got to remember, its not YOUR game. Its the players game. Their charchters won't always follow the "main plot line." Maybe one player wants to do something toattly different, if the rest agree go with it. Design the adventure around that.

The very worst thing a DM can do is railroad the PC's into following a specific path.
algritz
10-26-04, 12:37 AM Ok, try to get rid of the head bands, but use something else that isn't quite as restrictive. Try a 4 part key or whatever, something that keeps them from each others throats, but doesn't force them to play their characters in such an unnaturual(can't spell, sorry) manner. Keep them loosely bonded.
I've agreed with one of the player to get rid of the headband. I KNOW he'll kil one of the player his character constantly looking for opputunities to kill him... so if the headband isn't there to prevent this... that is what will happen.... If he manges to kill him fine, I can deal with that, but what if he then looks to kill another player ? What shall I do ? The guy is an excellent player given great reoleplay, but he's the one complaining the most.
algritz
10-26-04, 12:41 AM Ok you said you've wrote 13 chapters...

You got to remember, its not YOUR game. Its the players game. Their charchters won't always follow the "main plot line." Maybe one player wants to do something toattly different, if the rest agree go with it. Design the adventure around that.

The very worst thing a DM can do is railroad the PC's into following a specific path.
It's exactly what happenned at last game when they decided to go to Berryl Kashyr' instead of going back to Sshamath, I had to improvise to bring them back on the main plot. I see now it's not a good idea to plan EVERYTHING ahead, but I firmly beleive that there is at least some "preparation" required. One players nearly wants me to improvise ALL THE TIME. Sorry, but I can't do that, my main plot is way too twisted to deal withh all the actions the players will do on the fly. I need at least a storyline to base upon.
Bort333
10-26-04, 02:34 AM Uassualy its a good idea to end the session with the PC's deciding what to do next. And then you can plan out the next adventure.
ImmortalBlueMage
10-26-04, 03:47 AM Way way too ambitious. That sort of thing makes for a good book, not such a good D&D game. When designing a campaign, remember to start small. There's time to build the castle, but only after you lay the foundation. Usually whenever I hear a DM telling me about his "24 part epic story that's going to take like TWO YEARS to finish" I can't say anything except "Good luck getting past game six".
Joe Khol
10-26-04, 07:55 AM It sounds to me like you are trying to write a story rather than play a game. You've concentrated too much on the grand plan without considering the wishes of the players.

You've let them play evil characters but are expecting them (indeed forcing them) to act in the same way as a standard 'good' party. I personally think the 'headband' idea is a bad way to do that - you're not encouraging the characters to behave in a particular way but forcing them to go against their natures.

Rather than forcing actions, you should encourage them. Some kind of knowledge or power each character has which they all need to achieve their ends maybe or divine intervention ordering them to work together for the greater 'good' of their god(s). At the end of the day though, character will do what they do and if you allow evil character you need to expect (and accept) evil actions.

You are also trying to force their actions to fit your pre-planned story and are complain because they did what they're characters wanted to rather than what you wanted/expected them to.

If you want to salvage this campaign, you're going to need to be more flexible. Rather than plan a plot, identify your major players, their resources and aims. Only plan what NPCs will do up to their first contact with the players - everything else will be reactive. With their intentions and resources mapped out though, their reactions should be clear to you.

Only sketch out your grand plans (and those of your NPCs) so you can react to the players actions. If they go to a different city or miss a key plot point, you should be able to change your NPCs actions or shift the location of events to account for it.

Remember not everything needs to be part of the main plot. If the party goes off on a tangent, let them. Play out a session or two of side plot with little or no connection to the main plot. That way, you can easily give the party a small victory and keep the main plot fresh when they return to it. Both should help keep the players interested and happy.
Escef
10-26-04, 08:28 AM You got to remember, its not YOUR game. Its the players game.

No and yes. The game belongs as much to the DM as to the players. If the DM isn't having fun then all it comes down to is the DM getting used for the players' enjoyment and getting nothing in return. The DM invests more time into the game than any player, often more than the rest of the group combined, the DM deserves to have fun too.

That said, I think algritz has too rigid a story. The headbands' only purpose was to stop the evil characters from being evil. If you don't want to DM for an evil party than don't make an evil campaign. You have too many preconceptions as to how the game is supposed to unfold. You may very well have a remarkable story, but if your players balk at being unpaid actors instead of roleplayers then you are just as guilty of taking your players for granted as some players are of taking the DM for granted.

It's ok to have a rough outline of where the story is going and prepare for the next two or three sessions, but beyond that is asking for trouble. Players often do unexpected things that alter where the story is going. Don't force them back into your outline, change the outline. Remember that the movers and shakers in your story don't just sit around passively waiting for things to happen, they can and do give events a nudge or a shove to get things moving in a direction that favors them.
algritz
10-26-04, 09:07 AM Uassualy its a good idea to end the session with the PC's deciding what to do next. And then you can plan out the next adventure.
That is one of the things I want to do from now on. I simply hope my players will give me good input.
algritz
10-26-04, 09:10 AM Way way too ambitious. That sort of thing makes for a good book, not such a good D&D game. When designing a campaign, remember to start small. There's time to build the castle, but only after you lay the foundation. Usually whenever I hear a DM telling me about his "24 part epic story that's going to take like TWO YEARS to finish" I can't say anything except "Good luck getting past game six".
That was game six actually.... I guess you're right. I'll see what I can do to fix things up.
algritz
10-26-04, 09:27 AM It sounds to me like you are trying to write a story rather than play a game. You've concentrated too much on the grand plan without considering the wishes of the players.I wantes to put "depth" on their character by adidng side-quests that targetted the plyers more specificly. But unfortunately, by bad luck every time I had something planned for a specific character, the player isn't there for the game... It really doesn't help.

You've let them play evil characters but are expecting them (indeed forcing them) to act in the same way as a standard 'good' party. I personally think the 'headband' idea is a bad way to do that - you're not encouraging the characters to behave in a particular way but forcing them to go against their natures.I agree with that, but the purpose was to make their bond more strong, make them want to destroy the headband, they had to work together in order to acheive that. Once it would be done, I had expected them to want revenge for their "slavery".

Rather than forcing actions, you should encourage them. Some kind of knowledge or power each character has which they all need to achieve their ends maybe or divine intervention ordering them to work together for the greater 'good' of their god(s). At the end of the day though, character will do what they do and if you allow evil character you need to expect (and accept) evil actions.I guess I'll have to lean that way. One problem is that by knowing the existence of the headbad, I agreed upon having very different characters, some having incompatibilities with the other players. (not a technical issue, but a roleplay issue here)

You are also trying to force their actions to fit your pre-planned story and are complain because they did what they're characters wanted to rather than what you wanted/expected them to.indeed, I guess I'll ask what they want to do, if no input is given then I'll follow my story...

If you want to salvage this campaign, you're going to need to be more flexible. Rather than plan a plot, identify your major players, their resources and aims. Only plan what NPCs will do up to their first contact with the players - everything else will be reactive. With their intentions and resources mapped out though, their reactions should be clear to you.

Only sketch out your grand plans (and those of your NPCs) so you can react to the players actions. If they go to a different city or miss a key plot point, you should be able to change your NPCs actions or shift the location of events to account for it.

Remember not everything needs to be part of the main plot. If the party goes off on a tangent, let them. Play out a session or two of side plot with little or no connection to the main plot. That way, you can easily give the party a small victory and keep the main plot fresh when they return to it. Both should help keep the players interested and happy.I intend to do that, but I simply fear that at some point, I'll be strucked by a gap (meaning I have no ideas on what to do next)

Thanks for all your advices
algritz
10-26-04, 09:36 AM No and yes. The game belongs as much to the DM as to the players. If the DM isn't having fun then all it comes down to is the DM getting used for the players' enjoyment and getting nothing in return. The DM invests more time into the game than any player, often more than the rest of the group combined, the DM deserves to have fun too.I can easily say I spent over 60 hours preparing this game (not counting the time I spent on building my NPCs)

That said, I think algritz has too rigid a story. The headbands' only purpose was to stop the evil characters from being evil. If you don't want to DM for an evil party than don't make an evil campaign. You have too many preconceptions as to how the game is supposed to unfold. You may very well have a remarkable story, but if your players balk at being unpaid actors instead of roleplayers then you are just as guilty of taking your players for granted as some players are of taking the DM for granted.It didn't bothered me taht my players were evil all I simply wanted to show them is if drows were as commited to their groups as a party of good humans... jez.... they'd be very powerful. It's what was behind the idea of having act that way beacause of the headband. I simply wanted them to be a true team.

It's ok to have a rough outline of where the story is going and prepare for the next two or three sessions, but beyond that is asking for trouble. Players often do unexpected things that alter where the story is going. Don't force them back into your outline, change the outline. Remember that the movers and shakers in your story don't just sit around passively waiting for things to happen, they can and do give events a nudge or a shove to get things moving in a direction that favors them.so true....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
algritz 10-25-04, 11:10 PM	I am (or was, still not sure if I'll keep DM) DM a game. The concept wasn't easy at all, not every DM would want to run such a game. I'll explain briefly : It's a Drow game run in Sshamath. I had two major objective in that game; 1 - I wanted the player to work together, to protect together, just like good character would do, despite the fact they are all evil. For that I had devised a magical headband, that they were wearing all the time. that headband gave them constant telepathy between all the players. The trick is that the headband "let go" EVERYTHING even their most inner thoughts, so the players knows everything about what the other players thinks all the times, somewhat limiting their willinness to stab one's back... 2- I wanted to put the emphasis on something the drow have in abundance versus humans : TIME. A drow can spend centuries devising a plan, a human can only afford a few dozen of years. So I somewhat expected and did planned things in order to for them to rebel on their master. I wanted to have them spent lot of time planning how they would rebel againts their master and ultimately defeat him. Curently they are outmatched, as they started the game as level 1 Gestalt Characters. My BBEG is level 18. With that In mind I strongly (maybe too much) enforced the fact that they had to work as a team and that they cannot deafeat my NPCs, as they are out of their league. I also had a lot of stuff planed ahead, I have writtent about 13 chapters so far. Unfortunalety some of the players didn't pay any attention to these plot as their character had no other reason to do these "mission" other than "do it or else...". It was done on purpose, I wanted the PC to rebel.... So I had to "force" them back on the track of the story. Now my problem is I have some players saying the game $ucked.. They love their character but the game itself, wasn't enjoyable. they haven't seen the ultimate objective I wanted them to be part of. It's like if for some reason I cannot change the nature of a drow (which I somewhat expected) but also that I cannot completely get my players to think like a drow and plan a LONG time ahead, their human nature makes them want what they want NOW. Was my concept doomed to fail ? Have I failed ? Or is it my players that failed me ? Some of the players wants me to keep the game running but needs the following thing in order to continue; get rid of teh headband. And I must make my "overpowerful" NPCs (whom are in fact my BBEG) disappear. Also they don't want me to plan the story ahead. they would rather have me plan one game at a time. Some of the other on the other hand wants them to stay, but also agree that I should be a little bit less firm in the control of the story. (they do understand that some direction is needed, but not outrageously). These one don't care if the story is planned. With that said; I feel demotivated.... do I keep the game running ? If I do, do I keep planning things like I did before ? I can be less controlling about the story, my npcs can get nerfed I can get rid of the headband, but that would kill the concept... what should I do ? All this story look to me like a "you know, you write real good plots and story, but jezzz... you $uck as a DM..." I like DM, I love even more writing stories for games. But if I cannot DM them I can't play them as weel as I know all the answers to the plot ? Am I doomed to be a player for ever ? is that it ? I like both (be player and dm) if I cannot do both of them (I tend to alternate) I'd rather not play at all... a really demotivated player.... :(
yojimbo99 10-25-04, 11:44 PM	Ok, try to get rid of the head bands, but use something else that isn't quite as restrictive. Try a 4 part key or whatever, something that keeps them from each others throats, but doesn't force them to play their characters in such an unnaturual(can't spell, sorry) manner. Keep them loosely bonded.
Bort333 10-25-04, 11:52 PM	Ok you said you've wrote 13 chapters... You got to remember, its not YOUR game. Its the players game. Their charchters won't always follow the "main plot line." Maybe one player wants to do something toattly different, if the rest agree go with it. Design the adventure around that. The very worst thing a DM can do is railroad the PC's into following a specific path.
algritz 10-26-04, 12:37 AM	Ok, try to get rid of the head bands, but use something else that isn't quite as restrictive. Try a 4 part key or whatever, something that keeps them from each others throats, but doesn't force them to play their characters in such an unnaturual(can't spell, sorry) manner. Keep them loosely bonded. I've agreed with one of the player to get rid of the headband. I KNOW he'll kil one of the player his character constantly looking for opputunities to kill him... so if the headband isn't there to prevent this... that is what will happen.... If he manges to kill him fine, I can deal with that, but what if he then looks to kill another player ? What shall I do ? The guy is an excellent player given great reoleplay, but he's the one complaining the most.
algritz 10-26-04, 12:41 AM	Ok you said you've wrote 13 chapters... You got to remember, its not YOUR game. Its the players game. Their charchters won't always follow the "main plot line." Maybe one player wants to do something toattly different, if the rest agree go with it. Design the adventure around that. The very worst thing a DM can do is railroad the PC's into following a specific path. It's exactly what happenned at last game when they decided to go to Berryl Kashyr' instead of going back to Sshamath, I had to improvise to bring them back on the main plot. I see now it's not a good idea to plan EVERYTHING ahead, but I firmly beleive that there is at least some "preparation" required. One players nearly wants me to improvise ALL THE TIME. Sorry, but I can't do that, my main plot is way too twisted to deal withh all the actions the players will do on the fly. I need at least a storyline to base upon.
Bort333 10-26-04, 02:34 AM	Uassualy its a good idea to end the session with the PC's deciding what to do next. And then you can plan out the next adventure.
ImmortalBlueMage 10-26-04, 03:47 AM	Way way too ambitious. That sort of thing makes for a good book, not such a good D&D game. When designing a campaign, remember to start small. There's time to build the castle, but only after you lay the foundation. Usually whenever I hear a DM telling me about his "24 part epic story that's going to take like TWO YEARS to finish" I can't say anything except "Good luck getting past game six".
Joe Khol 10-26-04, 07:55 AM	It sounds to me like you are trying to write a story rather than play a game. You've concentrated too much on the grand plan without considering the wishes of the players. You've let them play evil characters but are expecting them (indeed forcing them) to act in the same way as a standard 'good' party. I personally think the 'headband' idea is a bad way to do that - you're not encouraging the characters to behave in a particular way but forcing them to go against their natures. Rather than forcing actions, you should encourage them. Some kind of knowledge or power each character has which they all need to achieve their ends maybe or divine intervention ordering them to work together for the greater 'good' of their god(s). At the end of the day though, character will do what they do and if you allow evil character you need to expect (and accept) evil actions. You are also trying to force their actions to fit your pre-planned story and are complain because they did what they're characters wanted to rather than what you wanted/expected them to. If you want to salvage this campaign, you're going to need to be more flexible. Rather than plan a plot, identify your major players, their resources and aims. Only plan what NPCs will do up to their first contact with the players - everything else will be reactive. With their intentions and resources mapped out though, their reactions should be clear to you. Only sketch out your grand plans (and those of your NPCs) so you can react to the players actions. If they go to a different city or miss a key plot point, you should be able to change your NPCs actions or shift the location of events to account for it. Remember not everything needs to be part of the main plot. If the party goes off on a tangent, let them. Play out a session or two of side plot with little or no connection to the main plot. That way, you can easily give the party a small victory and keep the main plot fresh when they return to it. Both should help keep the players interested and happy.
Escef 10-26-04, 08:28 AM	You got to remember, its not YOUR game. Its the players game. No and yes. The game belongs as much to the DM as to the players. If the DM isn't having fun then all it comes down to is the DM getting used for the players' enjoyment and getting nothing in return. The DM invests more time into the game than any player, often more than the rest of the group combined, the DM deserves to have fun too. That said, I think algritz has too rigid a story. The headbands' only purpose was to stop the evil characters from being evil. If you don't want to DM for an evil party than don't make an evil campaign. You have too many preconceptions as to how the game is supposed to unfold. You may very well have a remarkable story, but if your players balk at being unpaid actors instead of roleplayers then you are just as guilty of taking your players for granted as some players are of taking the DM for granted. It's ok to have a rough outline of where the story is going and prepare for the next two or three sessions, but beyond that is asking for trouble. Players often do unexpected things that alter where the story is going. Don't force them back into your outline, change the outline. Remember that the movers and shakers in your story don't just sit around passively waiting for things to happen, they can and do give events a nudge or a shove to get things moving in a direction that favors them.
algritz 10-26-04, 09:07 AM	Uassualy its a good idea to end the session with the PC's deciding what to do next. And then you can plan out the next adventure. That is one of the things I want to do from now on. I simply hope my players will give me good input.
algritz 10-26-04, 09:10 AM	Way way too ambitious. That sort of thing makes for a good book, not such a good D&D game. When designing a campaign, remember to start small. There's time to build the castle, but only after you lay the foundation. Usually whenever I hear a DM telling me about his "24 part epic story that's going to take like TWO YEARS to finish" I can't say anything except "Good luck getting past game six". That was game six actually.... I guess you're right. I'll see what I can do to fix things up.
algritz 10-26-04, 09:27 AM	It sounds to me like you are trying to write a story rather than play a game. You've concentrated too much on the grand plan without considering the wishes of the players.I wantes to put "depth" on their character by adidng side-quests that targetted the plyers more specificly. But unfortunately, by bad luck every time I had something planned for a specific character, the player isn't there for the game... It really doesn't help. You've let them play evil characters but are expecting them (indeed forcing them) to act in the same way as a standard 'good' party. I personally think the 'headband' idea is a bad way to do that - you're not encouraging the characters to behave in a particular way but forcing them to go against their natures.I agree with that, but the purpose was to make their bond more strong, make them want to destroy the headband, they had to work together in order to acheive that. Once it would be done, I had expected them to want revenge for their "slavery". Rather than forcing actions, you should encourage them. Some kind of knowledge or power each character has which they all need to achieve their ends maybe or divine intervention ordering them to work together for the greater 'good' of their god(s). At the end of the day though, character will do what they do and if you allow evil character you need to expect (and accept) evil actions.I guess I'll have to lean that way. One problem is that by knowing the existence of the headbad, I agreed upon having very different characters, some having incompatibilities with the other players. (not a technical issue, but a roleplay issue here) You are also trying to force their actions to fit your pre-planned story and are complain because they did what they're characters wanted to rather than what you wanted/expected them to.indeed, I guess I'll ask what they want to do, if no input is given then I'll follow my story... If you want to salvage this campaign, you're going to need to be more flexible. Rather than plan a plot, identify your major players, their resources and aims. Only plan what NPCs will do up to their first contact with the players - everything else will be reactive. With their intentions and resources mapped out though, their reactions should be clear to you. Only sketch out your grand plans (and those of your NPCs) so you can react to the players actions. If they go to a different city or miss a key plot point, you should be able to change your NPCs actions or shift the location of events to account for it. Remember not everything needs to be part of the main plot. If the party goes off on a tangent, let them. Play out a session or two of side plot with little or no connection to the main plot. That way, you can easily give the party a small victory and keep the main plot fresh when they return to it. Both should help keep the players interested and happy.I intend to do that, but I simply fear that at some point, I'll be strucked by a gap (meaning I have no ideas on what to do next) Thanks for all your advices
algritz 10-26-04, 09:36 AM	No and yes. The game belongs as much to the DM as to the players. If the DM isn't having fun then all it comes down to is the DM getting used for the players' enjoyment and getting nothing in return. The DM invests more time into the game than any player, often more than the rest of the group combined, the DM deserves to have fun too.I can easily say I spent over 60 hours preparing this game (not counting the time I spent on building my NPCs) That said, I think algritz has too rigid a story. The headbands' only purpose was to stop the evil characters from being evil. If you don't want to DM for an evil party than don't make an evil campaign. You have too many preconceptions as to how the game is supposed to unfold. You may very well have a remarkable story, but if your players balk at being unpaid actors instead of roleplayers then you are just as guilty of taking your players for granted as some players are of taking the DM for granted.It didn't bothered me taht my players were evil all I simply wanted to show them is if drows were as commited to their groups as a party of good humans... jez.... they'd be very powerful. It's what was behind the idea of having act that way beacause of the headband. I simply wanted them to be a true team. It's ok to have a rough outline of where the story is going and prepare for the next two or three sessions, but beyond that is asking for trouble. Players often do unexpected things that alter where the story is going. Don't force them back into your outline, change the outline. Remember that the movers and shakers in your story don't just sit around passively waiting for things to happen, they can and do give events a nudge or a shove to get things moving in a direction that favors them.so true....