Complicated Rules Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Complicated Rules Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Irish_Kirby
10-02-06, 10:46 PM Ok. I've been woking with my brother on a complicated character concept, and it's gotten a little out of hand. We both agree that it could be a decent character, or at least playable. Here it is.

The character will be an Awakened Squirrel (concidered Tiny size) with at least 5 levels of Drunken Master (from Complete Warrior) and the Monkey Grip feat (also from CW). His weapon will be a Large mithril (for weight concerns) frying pan.

Now for my question. Taking into concideration all rules for improvised weapons and weapon sizes, as well as the relevent feats and class abilities, what would be the damage and attack modifier of this weapon build?
Darth_Singe
10-02-06, 11:14 PM I would think that the frying pan is a makeshift weapon that would deal 1d3 damage for a regular character. A large frying would do what, 1d4? Making it tiny might mean it doeas 1 point of damage, but for the sake of randomness, maybe allow it to be 1d2. With the squireel's str score, he will probably ever only do the 1 point min anyway.

p.s. though an interesting concept, maybe the squireel might be better off as a sidekick or little buddy? first person i know sees a talking squirrel that's smarter than half the village is going to get his 12 gauge scatter gun and 2d8 the squirrel's rear end right into a stew.

Though, I can see the whole "I am a kender and or halfling that got banefully polymorphed into a small squirrel, and then cursed, and so now i quest to regain my former self, blah blah blah."
metalmorphosis
10-03-06, 09:55 AM Tiny should be a caster type, not melee... Maybe even a psion.. You could use an expanded power feat to have access to 'Compression'. At higher levels (when you can compress by two size categories) you can compress yourself out of existence. :P

Yeah.. a psion would be cool... You could have a psi-crystal shaped like an acorn. oh... the possibilities. :D
CharlieRock
10-03-06, 10:04 AM Could look at it as a club. And get a caster classed moose to go along with him. One that has a magic hat ... ;)
Darth_Singe
10-05-06, 04:11 PM You guys realize of course, that even though these are all grewat ideas, that we're talking about a freaking SQUIRREL??
Damage_Incarnate
11-04-06, 09:12 AM Given that Monkey Grip would allow a small weapon, I agree that a club would probabally cover a fryingpan.
So Small club, that'd be 1d4, but of course the low strength score will probabally reduce that to 1 assuming a strength score like that of a weasle (3 STR).
Of course a frying pan is not covered by weapon proficiencies so causes a -4 to hit totaling -6, an exotic weapon proficiency in frying pan would fix this but you would still get the -2 from using an oversized weapon through Monkey grip.
The Character may do better with a ranged weapon. A tiny Long Bow would still do 1d4 damage and would not be impeded by the low strength penalty, With Monkey Gripyou might even be able to use a Small Longbow for 1d6 damage.

Personally I'd scrap the idea.
Sarella Starshine
11-04-06, 10:12 AM you all are forgetting the 5th level of drunken master, which at 5th level, deals an extra 1d8 damage for an improvised weapon. since the entry does not say if that scales for size..i think the real debate going on will be if it does nor not.

and if it does not, man that would be one hell of a squirrel P

though...you have to make the squirrel get at least 6 levels of monk first so he could quallify then get him ripping drunk (not that hard considering the size) and have him surrive a night with other drunken masters without getting 'incarcerated, poisoned, or extraordinarily embarassed'. and that last bit alone would be very fun to play through. i can just imagine all these old men getting smashed and then go out for a night on the town, and taking this squirrel with them...but then, i do have a very wierd sence of humor. :D
CharlieRock
11-04-06, 11:03 AM *slurs* hey ,there ,buddy *hiccup* why the long tail ... *hiccup*
Neratos
11-04-06, 11:08 AM Um....doesn't drunken master require at least 2 levels monk? Although it does sound like a good character for a throw away game. And where did you get the stats for the squirl? Personally i would want to be one of those evil squirls from the MMIV.
Sarella Starshine
11-04-06, 12:22 PM well, in adition to the feats (of which you need dodge and great fortitude), you need 8 ranks of tumble, which is at a min level 5 monk, or a combo of monk 2/bard or rogue 3...and if you are doing the monk/rogue path...he will be adding an addional 2d6 sneak attack damage with the unarmed strike, providing he is able to do so (which i am assuming is perfectly legit thing to do)...that squirrel would be doing about 1-2pts normal damage, 1d8 for 5th level drunken master, and 2d6 if he has rogue3/monk2 to quallify, if that squirrel is able to be in a postion to flank and if it is legit to add sneak attack to an unarmed strike (since a monk's unarmed strike is considered lethal damage).

which means, that's one kick arse squirrel you do not want to run into, alone, in the park, at night.
Romtos
11-04-06, 12:28 PM Where can the 'Awakened' template be found? :)
Sarella Starshine
11-04-06, 12:32 PM now that i read up on it, with the requirements for Drunken Master, all you need monk1/rogue4 (since rogues have evasion) and take dodge and great fortitude as your feats.

so now we have a squirrel with 2d6 sneak attack, the ability to do an additional 1d8 damage with improvised weaponry, and add what ever damage his normal unarmed strike would be (1-2pts of damage i think), and one hell of a drinking problem P. plus, since rogue4 gets uncanny dodge, he is never denyed his dex to AC (unless imobalized) :P
Neratos
11-04-06, 12:37 PM 2 monk is better than the 4th rogue. Common a squirrel who can deflect arrows, how pimp is that.
Sarella Starshine
11-04-06, 12:59 PM 2 monk is better than the 4th rogue. Common a squirrel who can deflect arrows, how pimp is that.

true, true :) was saying that, since the evasion ability of both monk2 and rogue2 do not stack, there was no point in taking the 2nd monk level for the evasion ability.

but is needed if you do monk2/bard3 which is also another vaild build..though...that one would be more...interesting...as now we have a drunken master who can inspire courage... by singing drinking songs!

and since he can cast everyone's favorite cantrip (no...i refuse to type it out as i can't even pronounce it right)...he can make his booze taste like anything :)
Zherog
11-04-06, 01:13 PM if that squirrel is able to be in a postion to flank and if it is legit to add sneak attack to an unarmed strike (since a monk's unarmed strike is considered lethal damage).

You can indeed add sneak attack damage to an unarmed strike; however, a tiny creature cannot flank because it doesn't threaten any of the squares around it.

If a creature has 0 reach, it must enter an enemy’s square to attack that enemy, correct? If the creature enters the enemy’s square, does it now threaten the enemy? Is it possible for the creature to flank the enemy? If so, where would an ally need to be positioned to flank the enemy?

If you’re armed and you’re in a position to make a melee attack against a foe, you threaten that foe (see Threatened Squares under the Attacks of Opportunity section in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook). To be armed you must wield a weapon or have natural weaponry. If your reach is 0, you can threaten foes in the same square with you only.
A creature with a reach of 0 cannot flank an opponent (see Flanking in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook). Such a creature can neither gain a flanking bonus from an ally nor grant a flanking bonus to an ally, not even when two or more of them enter the same foe’s square and attack.

Where can the 'Awakened' template be found?

Awaken is a spell that can be found in the PHB.
High Octane
11-04-06, 01:23 PM .......

Take this man's cocaine away please. He's way too smart to be on crack, cause that combination is dangerous.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Irish_Kirby 10-02-06, 10:46 PM	Ok. I've been woking with my brother on a complicated character concept, and it's gotten a little out of hand. We both agree that it could be a decent character, or at least playable. Here it is. The character will be an Awakened Squirrel (concidered Tiny size) with at least 5 levels of Drunken Master (from Complete Warrior) and the Monkey Grip feat (also from CW). His weapon will be a Large mithril (for weight concerns) frying pan. Now for my question. Taking into concideration all rules for improvised weapons and weapon sizes, as well as the relevent feats and class abilities, what would be the damage and attack modifier of this weapon build?
Darth_Singe 10-02-06, 11:14 PM	I would think that the frying pan is a makeshift weapon that would deal 1d3 damage for a regular character. A large frying would do what, 1d4? Making it tiny might mean it doeas 1 point of damage, but for the sake of randomness, maybe allow it to be 1d2. With the squireel's str score, he will probably ever only do the 1 point min anyway. p.s. though an interesting concept, maybe the squireel might be better off as a sidekick or little buddy? first person i know sees a talking squirrel that's smarter than half the village is going to get his 12 gauge scatter gun and 2d8 the squirrel's rear end right into a stew. Though, I can see the whole "I am a kender and or halfling that got banefully polymorphed into a small squirrel, and then cursed, and so now i quest to regain my former self, blah blah blah."
metalmorphosis 10-03-06, 09:55 AM	Tiny should be a caster type, not melee... Maybe even a psion.. You could use an expanded power feat to have access to 'Compression'. At higher levels (when you can compress by two size categories) you can compress yourself out of existence. :P Yeah.. a psion would be cool... You could have a psi-crystal shaped like an acorn. oh... the possibilities. :D
CharlieRock 10-03-06, 10:04 AM	Could look at it as a club. And get a caster classed moose to go along with him. One that has a magic hat ... ;)
Darth_Singe 10-05-06, 04:11 PM	You guys realize of course, that even though these are all grewat ideas, that we're talking about a freaking SQUIRREL??
Damage_Incarnate 11-04-06, 09:12 AM	Given that Monkey Grip would allow a small weapon, I agree that a club would probabally cover a fryingpan. So Small club, that'd be 1d4, but of course the low strength score will probabally reduce that to 1 assuming a strength score like that of a weasle (3 STR). Of course a frying pan is not covered by weapon proficiencies so causes a -4 to hit totaling -6, an exotic weapon proficiency in frying pan would fix this but you would still get the -2 from using an oversized weapon through Monkey grip. The Character may do better with a ranged weapon. A tiny Long Bow would still do 1d4 damage and would not be impeded by the low strength penalty, With Monkey Gripyou might even be able to use a Small Longbow for 1d6 damage. Personally I'd scrap the idea.
Sarella Starshine 11-04-06, 10:12 AM	you all are forgetting the 5th level of drunken master, which at 5th level, deals an extra 1d8 damage for an improvised weapon. since the entry does not say if that scales for size..i think the real debate going on will be if it does nor not. and if it does not, man that would be one hell of a squirrel P though...you have to make the squirrel get at least 6 levels of monk first so he could quallify then get him ripping drunk (not that hard considering the size) and have him surrive a night with other drunken masters without getting 'incarcerated, poisoned, or extraordinarily embarassed'. and that last bit alone would be very fun to play through. i can just imagine all these old men getting smashed and then go out for a night on the town, and taking this squirrel with them...but then, i do have a very wierd sence of humor. :D
CharlieRock 11-04-06, 11:03 AM	slurs hey ,there ,buddy hiccup why the long tail ... hiccup
Neratos 11-04-06, 11:08 AM	Um....doesn't drunken master require at least 2 levels monk? Although it does sound like a good character for a throw away game. And where did you get the stats for the squirl? Personally i would want to be one of those evil squirls from the MMIV.
Sarella Starshine 11-04-06, 12:22 PM	well, in adition to the feats (of which you need dodge and great fortitude), you need 8 ranks of tumble, which is at a min level 5 monk, or a combo of monk 2/bard or rogue 3...and if you are doing the monk/rogue path...he will be adding an addional 2d6 sneak attack damage with the unarmed strike, providing he is able to do so (which i am assuming is perfectly legit thing to do)...that squirrel would be doing about 1-2pts normal damage, 1d8 for 5th level drunken master, and 2d6 if he has rogue3/monk2 to quallify, if that squirrel is able to be in a postion to flank and if it is legit to add sneak attack to an unarmed strike (since a monk's unarmed strike is considered lethal damage). which means, that's one kick arse squirrel you do not want to run into, alone, in the park, at night.
Romtos 11-04-06, 12:28 PM	Where can the 'Awakened' template be found? :)
Sarella Starshine 11-04-06, 12:32 PM	now that i read up on it, with the requirements for Drunken Master, all you need monk1/rogue4 (since rogues have evasion) and take dodge and great fortitude as your feats. so now we have a squirrel with 2d6 sneak attack, the ability to do an additional 1d8 damage with improvised weaponry, and add what ever damage his normal unarmed strike would be (1-2pts of damage i think), and one hell of a drinking problem P. plus, since rogue4 gets uncanny dodge, he is never denyed his dex to AC (unless imobalized) :P
Neratos 11-04-06, 12:37 PM	2 monk is better than the 4th rogue. Common a squirrel who can deflect arrows, how pimp is that.
Sarella Starshine 11-04-06, 12:59 PM	2 monk is better than the 4th rogue. Common a squirrel who can deflect arrows, how pimp is that. true, true :) was saying that, since the evasion ability of both monk2 and rogue2 do not stack, there was no point in taking the 2nd monk level for the evasion ability. but is needed if you do monk2/bard3 which is also another vaild build..though...that one would be more...interesting...as now we have a drunken master who can inspire courage... by singing drinking songs! and since he can cast everyone's favorite cantrip (no...i refuse to type it out as i can't even pronounce it right)...he can make his booze taste like anything :)
Zherog 11-04-06, 01:13 PM	if that squirrel is able to be in a postion to flank and if it is legit to add sneak attack to an unarmed strike (since a monk's unarmed strike is considered lethal damage). You can indeed add sneak attack damage to an unarmed strike; however, a tiny creature cannot flank because it doesn't threaten any of the squares around it. If a creature has 0 reach, it must enter an enemy’s square to attack that enemy, correct? If the creature enters the enemy’s square, does it now threaten the enemy? Is it possible for the creature to flank the enemy? If so, where would an ally need to be positioned to flank the enemy? If you’re armed and you’re in a position to make a melee attack against a foe, you threaten that foe (see Threatened Squares under the Attacks of Opportunity section in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook). To be armed you must wield a weapon or have natural weaponry. If your reach is 0, you can threaten foes in the same square with you only. A creature with a reach of 0 cannot flank an opponent (see Flanking in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook). Such a creature can neither gain a flanking bonus from an ally nor grant a flanking bonus to an ally, not even when two or more of them enter the same foe’s square and attack. Where can the 'Awakened' template be found? Awaken is a spell that can be found in the PHB.
High Octane 11-04-06, 01:23 PM	....... Take this man's cocaine away please. He's way too smart to be on crack, cause that combination is dangerous.