Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NeueRegel 06-23-07, 12:44 AM	Quote from tonight's monologue: "A recent poll of Americans says that 96% of adult Americans have had sex. When reached for comment, the other 4% said, "Dungeons and Dragons ROCKS!"". *smirk*
Solaris 06-23-07, 12:58 AM	Cue legions of crying forum members...
WolfHati 06-23-07, 01:01 AM	Obviously the 4% know the truth: D&D is better than sex. And Conan needs jokes that aren't older than I am.
Sim_antix 06-23-07, 01:04 AM	Cue legions of crying forum members... I think its funny and I don't think any offense was meant by it.
Thurbane 06-23-07, 01:07 AM	And Conan needs jokes that aren't older than I am.QFT :D
celestialkin 06-23-07, 01:23 AM	I think its funny and I don't think any offense was meant by it. There was offense meant by it, but that's part of why it's funny. People just need to have a sense of humor and not be so uptight about things. That being said, I have only played D&D for the last 4 or so years, but I am already getting tired of the D&D stereotype and all the bad jokes that go along with it. :rolleyes:
Someone 06-23-07, 01:38 AM	I say we buy up all the tickets to one of the show tapings, and throw d20s at him. :D
FloppyLlama 06-23-07, 01:41 AM	I say we buy up all the tickets to one of the show tapings, and throw d20s at him. :D Great idea, but it should be d4's. That way if he tries to run... :evillaugh
Kojiro James 06-23-07, 01:41 AM	Great idea, but it should be d4's. That way if he tries to run... :evillaugh I like how you think and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Ranger REG 06-23-07, 03:23 AM	Quote from tonight's monologue: "A recent poll of Americans says that 96% of adult Americans have had sex. When reached for comment, the other 4% said, "Dungeons and Dragons ROCKS!"". *smirk* True. Many of my colleagues are prude. I tried to get them interested in the Book of Erotic Fantasy RPG but they turned me down. Though I may have overstepped my pitch when I showed up nude.
Jinnetics 06-23-07, 03:39 AM	Tis funny. Now where did I leave my codpiece...?
Draco Strang 06-23-07, 06:40 AM	True. Many of my colleagues are prude. I tried to get them interested in the Book of Erotic Fantasy RPG but they turned me down. Though I may have overstepped my pitch when I showed up nude. No, no....it was probably the elf ears that did you in, my friend.
Salla 06-23-07, 07:30 AM	Great idea, but it should be d4's. That way if he tries to run... :evillaugh See, magic is real, we all just cast 'Caltrops'!
Escef 06-23-07, 07:31 AM	I tried to get them interested in the Book of Erotic Fantasy RPG but they turned me down. Honestly, after reading the BoEF I don't see how anyone would be interested in sex or nudity. Before I looked over that book I did not believe it was possible to make sex boring.
Francius 06-23-07, 09:01 AM	I say we buy up all the tickets to one of the show tapings, and throw d20s at him. :D I don't know who Konnen O' Dryen is but, can I join the party too?
Mique 06-23-07, 09:09 AM	***sniff*** (pushes up glasses):cool: **snfff** oh come on...you know conan plays dnd...i heard he has a 12th lvl ogre rouge with a +3 bad dance routine and the voice box of greater annoyance. seriously....why is he still on tv? the guys a concnieted jackass. now, im sure i saw the stats for one of them in my monster manual:cool: ....i think they only have ac 14....
Sarrazon 06-23-07, 10:43 AM	Great idea, but it should be d4's. That way if he tries to run... :evillaugh Three Words- Chainmail Dice Bags
Artifact 06-23-07, 11:00 AM	Honestly, after reading the BoEF I don't see how anyone would be interested in sex or nudity. Before I looked over that book I did not believe it was possible to make sex boring. :rofl: Or should I simply say "OFT"? I assume this means "Quoted For Truth".
Escef 06-23-07, 11:10 AM	I assume this means "Quoted For Truth". Truth or Truthery. I've seen both. Works either way. :)
MHolland 06-23-07, 11:47 AM	I thought it was humorous but agree, it is an old, old joke. Then again, I wouldn't expect much more from Conan. His team of writers was probably straining to find something that funny to say.
Escef 06-23-07, 11:49 AM	I thought it was humorous but agree, it is an old, old joke. Then again, I wouldn't expect much more from Conan. His team of writers was probably straining to find something that funny to say. I've never thought Conan was particularly funny. I thought his old sidekick, Andy, was funnier than he was.
MonkeyPaladin 06-23-07, 12:08 PM	Hey, I'm a gamer and I get laid occasionally. Of course, there have been times when I had to choose the woman over gaming, which was rough.
Archangel62 06-23-07, 12:09 PM	Quote from tonight's monologue: "A recent poll of Americans says that 96% of adult Americans have had sex. When reached for comment, the other 4% said, "Dungeons and Dragons ROCKS!"". *smirk* This is another example of why he needs to quit recycling jokes. And yes, I have and I will also add that geek girls are incredible.:D
Someone 06-23-07, 12:43 PM	Great idea, but it should be d4's. That way if he tries to run... :evillaughI dunno, d20s are sort of round, like marbles. And I don't think he has many ranks in Balance...
Shan_TheBabau_Burke 06-23-07, 12:51 PM	I don't think it matters what you throw as long as it's hard, sharp and there's an almighty lot of it.
Radiun 06-23-07, 01:34 PM	Let's throw him a going away party instead... *Runs from the lameness*
caeruleus 06-23-07, 02:03 PM	Obviously the 4% know the truth: D&D is better than sex. As a friend of mine has pointed out to me, and as I can attest to, the main difference between sex and D&D is that for a short while after having sex, I stop thinking about it.
Myree 06-24-07, 01:57 AM	Yes, that joke is pretty old -- but my wife and kids still thought it was funny. I just hope Vin Diesel caught it and brings it up the next time he's a guest.
Nat_20 06-24-07, 02:18 AM	Hey, I'm a gamer and I get laid occasionally. Of course, there have been times when I had to choose the woman over gaming, which was rough. Ohh GOD, I hate that.... also the fact that my GF HATES D&D with a passion....
BEASTMAN_5000 06-24-07, 02:41 AM	You guys are bustas.
deanruel 06-24-07, 02:56 AM	You guys are bustas. A good point sir, and it needed to be said.
bonethug0108 06-24-07, 03:09 AM	:rofl: Or should I simply say "OFT"? I assume this means "Quoted For Truth". It also has another meaning, which cannot be fully said on these boards. Quite "Something" True. I'll let you figure out the something.:shifty:
Pfisiar 06-24-07, 09:09 AM	Hmmm, Conan makes a crack about D&D players and the community laughs. Alltell makes a crack about D&D players and the community riots. Double standard much?
Sim_antix 06-24-07, 09:57 AM	Hmmm, Conan makes a crack about D&D players and the community laughs. Alltell makes a crack about D&D players and the community riots. Double standard much? To be fair there was a split reaction to both. Some felt it was offensive, others that it was funny and still others didn't think anything of it at all. Such is the way of the world my friend. Not everyone will get every joke and even the ones that do might not find it all that funny.
Archangel62 06-24-07, 10:20 AM	Hmmm, Conan makes a crack about D&D players and the community laughs. Alltell makes a crack about D&D players and the community riots. Double standard much? Yes, but we're laughing at the guy telling the joke, or at least many of us are. I think the other reason is that Conan isn't going to be on all day on multiple channels, theoretical audience size does at least some of it. Plus some people have less of a problem being told they aren't going to get laid than being called an idiotic loser.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 06-24-07, 11:13 AM	I actually rather like Conan (I guess I'm just weird that way). I thought that it was really funny, as I am a D&Der and a virgin. In short... (http://picardlaughedoutloud.ytmnd.com/) (I like YTMNDs. Get off my back.)
Silverthumb128 06-24-07, 11:24 AM	You guys are busta rhymes. Fixed.
Darth_Singe 06-24-07, 04:22 PM	When someone like Conan makes a D&D joke, it really is targeted at a select few players of the game who actually fit into that type of stereotype. If anyone saw that highlander episode where the Hunters had Fitz all tied up in thier basement, and he said "What are you boys playing at, Dungeons and Dragons?" it was probably one of the funniest things i've ever heard in my life, because it does fit witht he stereotype. Why do millions of rednecks laugh at larry the Cable Guy? Because everything they say is true, or you know someone like that. We've all been to the gaming store and found the self centered egotistical gamer whose body didn't appear quite proportionate (either too fat or thin) and whose attitude could seriously need an adjustment. But Anyway..... What did Alltell do?
WhiteRaven810 06-24-07, 07:33 PM	I laughed.
Nobunaga Oda 06-24-07, 07:45 PM	True. Many of my colleagues are prude. I tried to get them interested in the Book of Erotic Fantasy RPG but they turned me down. Though I may have overstepped my pitch when I showed up nude. Dude you are doing it wrong! You must first get them interessed in the Book of Erotic Fantasy and then you show up naked.
Captain_Carrot 06-24-07, 11:42 PM	I love Conan. The only thing that upsets me about him making fun of D&D folk is that I missed it. Yay Conan! You have to have a sense of humor. Who cares if D&D is considered "geeky" by most. If you enjoy it, who cares? Oh, and I absolutely LOVE the Alltel commercial. As do all of the other dudes I game with.
Artifact 06-24-07, 11:50 PM	I love Conan. The only thing that upsets me about him making fun of D&D folk is that I missed it. Yay Conan! You have to have a sense of humor. Who cares if D&D is considered "geeky" by most. If you enjoy it, who cares? Oh, and I absolutely LOVE the Alltel commercial. As do all of the other dudes I game with. I don't get broadcast TV (that's why God created DVD sets after all :D), so I've missed the Alltel commercial. Out of curiousity, what's it about? Oh, and I loved the Captain Carrot and the Amazing Zoo Crew comics by DC!
Captain_Carrot 06-24-07, 11:55 PM	I don't get broadcast TV (that's why God created DVD sets after all :D), so I've missed the Alltel commercial. Out of curiousity, what's it about? Oh, and I loved the Captain Carrot and the Amazing Zoo Crew comics by DC! The "cool" Alltel guy asks the "uncool" other cell dudes "what level dungeon master are you?". They reply, "Dungeon Masters don't have levels, dork." Pretty funny imo. Oh, and thanks. I thought about doing "Rubber Duck" or "Pig-Iron" but I didn't think anyone would get those.
Artifact 06-25-07, 12:01 AM	The "cool" Alltel guy asks the "uncool" other cell dudes "what level dungeon master are you?". They reply, "Dungeon Masters don't have levels, dork." Pretty funny imo. Oh, and thanks. I thought about doing "Rubber Duck" or "Pig-Iron" but I didn't think anyone would get those. Sounds funny. I'll have to see if I can download it from the net somewhere. Pig Iron would be a cool tag IMHO :D. I would have gotten it, eventually. I've got some Captain Carrot comics stashed around here somewhere; think I'll look 'em up now.
Ranger REG 06-25-07, 04:11 AM	Honestly, after reading the BoEF I don't see how anyone would be interested in sex or nudity. Before I looked over that book I did not believe it was possible to make sex boring. Sex is boring? :uh-huh: Are you sick?
docballen 06-25-07, 07:05 AM	I'm a female gamer, married to a male gamer. We consummate the marriage. (But that does not interrupt "game day".) But... we have taken Role playing to a whole different level. (No dice involved.) :D Sorry, that was probably too much information.
Steely_Dan 06-25-07, 09:09 AM	We've all been to the gaming store and found the self centered egotistical gamer whose body didn't appear quite proportionate (either too fat or thin) and whose attitude could seriously need an adjustment. "Worst episode, ever!"
Toran_A_Sunder 06-25-07, 09:22 AM	This reminds me of an argument my ex girl friend and I had last year. She was not a fan of D&D by any stretch (though she did love Munchkin :thinks: I don't get it). In fact, she hated that I played, and always tried to get me to come home early and crap (lotsa drama and baggage with that one). Anyways... One day me and my buddies and she are all hanging out and she asks me which do I like better...D&D or sex with her (and in general). I pause to think, not about which one I like better, but more like "Oh my God is she seriously asking me this?" And she flies off the handle when I don't answer right away and assumes I like D&D better than sex, especially sex with her. :doh: To be fair, she was a whole hell of a lot of :looloo: And I don't think I ever won any of the arguments. And yes, I like sex better. But D&D is a close second ;)
Steely_Dan 06-25-07, 09:33 AM	And yes, I like sex better. But D&D is a close second ;) A buddy of mine tried having sex and DMing at the same time, but since he and his girlfriend weren't very attractive and I'm not much of a voyeur, I left that session early.
EvilVegan 06-25-07, 09:48 AM	As a DM employee of a competetor to Alltel I have to say I found the commercial entertaining and accurate. DMs don't have levels, and the sooner Alltel learns that, the better. Also, Conan O'Brien is funny, as was that joke. Just because its old subject matter doesn't mean it doesn't get the chuckles. At least D&D is getting popular enough that its showing up in mainstream media without being treated as devil worship.
Radiun 06-25-07, 09:53 AM	As a DM employee of a competetor to Alltel I have to say I found the commercial entertaining and accurate. DMs don't have levels, and the sooner Alltel learns that, the better. Also, Conan O'Brien is funny, as was that joke. Just because its old subject matter doesn't mean it doesn't get the chuckles. At least D&D is getting popular enough that its showing up in mainstream media without being treated as devil worship. That's because they've learned that DM's don't become possessed by Satan, Demons and Devils, we control vast armies of them, including Mephistopheles, Orcus, and Asmodeus(SP?) >.>
EvilVegan 06-25-07, 10:11 AM	Yes. Devils worship us.
Escef 06-25-07, 10:11 AM	Sex is boring? :uh-huh: Are you sick? Yes, but not that way. The BoEF presents sex in a way that I find boring. Sex itself I have always found to be fun. :cool: Don't tell me you've never enjoyed something and had someone come up and ruin it for you? (At least for a little while.) Heck, I turned Nirvana into a guilty pleasure for my roommate.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 06-25-07, 10:50 AM	Did he follow that joke up by inteviewing John DeLorean and the inventor of the legwarmer?
Bacon and Eggs 06-25-07, 10:52 AM	Oh KRUNK he di'int!
Rian Lightblade 06-25-07, 02:39 PM	Quote from tonight's monologue: "A recent poll of Americans says that 96% of adult Americans have had sex. When reached for comment, the other 4% said, "Dungeons and Dragons ROCKS!"". *smirk* A D&D joke? :rolleyes: Come on Conan, what's next? Are you going end everything you say with "Waka, Waka!"? :P
getgoldcardsoul 06-25-07, 02:58 PM	Jeez, people, lighten up. Conan making fun of D&D fans for "reluctant asexuality" is like Mike Tyson criticizing Genghis Khan for his ruthlessness. ;) Conan even admitted to being a virgin on public broadcast for so many years (until he got married, at least, so maybe it wasn't so reluctant... but still!). I see too many here who are either very insecure or who don't like Conan anyway and justify it with this example of one of his myriad of dumb non-Friday-night monologue filler jokes. To the former: Dudes, chill! It'll totally happen! Remember: College! To the latter: Yeah, the monologue were never the strong point of his show... Idunno, I haven't watched it in a while, maybe its all like this now.
Qwicksilver 06-25-07, 03:21 PM	Jeez, people, lighten up. Conan making fun of D&D fans for "reluctant asexuality" is like Mike Tyson criticizing Genghis Khan for his ruthlessness. ;) Conan even admitted to being a virgin on public broadcast for so many years (until he got married, at least, so maybe it wasn't so reluctant... but still!). I see too many here who are either very insecure or who don't like Conan anyway and justify it with this example of one of his myriad of dumb non-Friday-night monologue filler jokes. To the former: Dudes, chill! It'll totally happen! Remember: College! To the latter: Yeah, the monologue were never the strong point of his show... Idunno, I haven't watched it in a while, maybe its all like this now. Yeah man, conan kicks a$$, and yes he's been using the joke for like 10 years now, but he kids because he loves. Haha Guys gotta lighten up, plus he had vin diesel talk about playing d&d on his show. Conan: "There's a side of you which, for lack of a better term is a bit... a bit nerdier than most people think." Vin: (looks at conan) Conan: Please don't take my head and just like twist it off right here... Vin: Yeah I play d&d it was a great experience. and now you find out where vin got his superb acting talent :D :D
Captain_Carrot 06-25-07, 03:25 PM	and now you find out where vin got his acting talent :D :D Ooooo, yeah let's avoid relating Vin Diesel acting to D&D. It will only give D&D a worse rap than it already has. ;)
Qwicksilver 06-25-07, 03:28 PM	What are you talking about he was frigging AMAZING in riddick. I heard he based the character on his CE drow vampire hunter.:D
vegetalss4 06-25-07, 03:32 PM	all off you who are angry with the d&d joke, just remember... There once where a time when people would have screamed DEVIL-WORSHIPER if you amiddet that you played d&d. i count that as a improvement
_Jayne_Cobb_ 06-25-07, 03:40 PM	all off you who are angry with the d&d joke, just remember... There once where a time when people would have screamed DEVIL-WORSHIPER if you amiddet that you played d&d. i count that as a improvement WTF does "amiddet" mean? :confused:
Montravont 06-25-07, 03:47 PM	WTF does "amiddet" mean? :confused: At first thought I would think that it is used in a way such as mayonaise as mayonaise, lot o' people up in here.
Ash2Dust 06-25-07, 03:48 PM	WTF does "amiddet" mean? :confused: Admitted, probably. I like Conan a lot. I didn't feel bad about that particular joke (although I was getting tired of the Paris Hilton jokes until he started making fun of the jokes themselves). A big mitigating factor there, however, is how far he goes to insult and degrade himself constantly. As far as the alltel commercial. It's kind of funny on a level, but at the same time, it is insulting. Instead of Conan's "oh, those wacky gamers," it's more of "Oh those sad, sad lifeless dorks who don't even realize how sad they are." Although, on the other hand, it strikes me that the nerds in those commercials actually have friends (each other), which may or may not be rather telling.
Qwicksilver 06-25-07, 04:41 PM	what was the alltel commercial by the way? Oh also i agree with his self-deprecating nature. There's something funny about a tall lanky red-haired guy prancing around using a "nerd voice". It's clearly tongue in cheek.
MHolland 06-25-07, 10:26 PM	I admit, I am a bit bias because I always thought Andy was the funnier of the two and when he left the show the comedy went downhill. All that aside you would have figured someone would have been smart enough to say, "Wait... This joke is older than the leftovers in my grandma's freezer!"
Artifact 06-26-07, 02:42 AM	At first thought I would think that it is used in a way such as mayonaise as mayonaise, lot o' people up in here. Hey, I resemble that remark :D. I actually type much better 'n ah talk. Yep, that's purdy much sums up how people talks 'round 'ese parts . . . I'm a Mountaineer BTW ;).
Nat_20 06-26-07, 03:05 AM	This reminds me of an argument my ex girl friend and I had last year. She was not a fan of D&D by any stretch (though she did love Munchkin :thinks: I don't get it). In fact, she hated that I played, and always tried to get me to come home early and crap (lotsa drama and baggage with that one). Anyways... One day me and my buddies and she are all hanging out and she asks me which do I like better...D&D or sex with her (and in general). I pause to think, not about which one I like better, but more like "Oh my God is she seriously asking me this?" And she flies off the handle when I don't answer right away and assumes I like D&D better than sex, especially sex with her. :doh: To be fair, she was a whole hell of a lot of :looloo: And I don't think I ever won any of the arguments. And yes, I like sex better. But D&D is a close second ;) ERRRRRR..... why do some women hate D&D so???? i dont get it, my cirrent G-F is pissier than the nine hells when it come to it.... god... Ooooo, yeah let's avoid relating Vin Diesel acting to D&D. It will only give D&D a worse rap than it already has. ;) Yes, please dont degrade all of this...
Ranger REG 06-26-07, 03:59 AM	Don't tell me you've never enjoyed something and had someone come up and ruin it for you? You mean like chick flicks and Oprah? :evillaugh
Ranger REG 06-26-07, 04:02 AM	Yes, please dont degrade all of this... Trust me, the community is doing a good job degrading itself. :P
Escef 06-26-07, 04:13 AM	You mean like chick flicks and Oprah? :evillaugh Boy, don't make bust out a custom configured Templar on you. I will drill you good with RAC/2s. :devil:
koiulpoi 07-08-07, 05:10 PM	all off you who are angry with the d&d joke, just remember... There once where a time when people would have screamed DEVIL-WORSHIPER if you amiddet that you played d&d. i count that as a improvement There was once a time? Trust me, it still happens. One of my players came in the other day to a session and said "Well, since I'm here, I'm going to Hell. Apparently. Yup, according to my mom, D&D is satan worship." He was completely serious about it, too. His mom's crazy, and I know she's not alone in her, eh, craziness.
emperor norton 07-08-07, 06:59 PM	LOL Gamers are anti-social nerds. LOL Conan's a funny guy. LOL
Professorpain 07-08-07, 11:13 PM	Obviously the 4% know the truth: D&D is better than sex. And Conan needs jokes that aren't older than I am. No need to get defensive. Its funny because its true. We gamers need to be able to laugh at ourselves. Lets face it we have a (probably deserved) reputation for poor social skills. Whenever I go to a gaming store or convention this assumtption appears to be confirmed. Of course not all of us are nerds, geeks and losers. But so many of us are.
Lunar_Shadow 07-08-07, 11:35 PM	I have to agrree that people still think D&D is Satanic. Course I got two strikes against me: I play D&D and I am an atheist in the South. On Topic: I kinda resent the whole D&D player= virgin, but it is still a funny joke if a bit old.
bonethug0108 07-08-07, 11:58 PM	I have to agrree that people still think D&D is Satanic. Course I got two strikes against me: I play D&D and I am an atheist in the South. On Topic: I kinda resent the whole D&D player= virgin, but it is still a funny joke if a bit old. I play d&d and I am non-religious in the south, so yeah, I kind of feel you there. Though where I live, d&d isn't seen as the devil, just as a nerds game.
Ranger REG 07-09-07, 04:46 PM	[ message deleted by poster. ]
Ranger REG 07-09-07, 04:48 PM	Boy, don't make bust out a custom configured Templar on you. I will drill you good with RAC/2s. :devil: The Templar prestige class and artwork are based on Oprah and angry chicks? :eek:
Erato 07-09-07, 05:24 PM	No need to get defensive. Its funny because its true. We gamers need to be able to laugh at ourselves. Lets face it we have a (probably deserved) reputation for poor social skills. Whenever I go to a gaming store or convention this assumtption appears to be confirmed. Of course not all of us are nerds, geeks and losers. But so many of us are. Actually, I don't think conventions are the right place to find the average D&D-player. I've only been to 1-2 of them, most people I game with feel the same way. Some of us play the game as a spare time hobby in an otherwise full life. Some of us put our heart and soul in the game, and spend an abnormal amount of time on gaming or game-related activities (nothing wrong with that). The second group is a lot geekier on average, and are usually over-represented at conventions. It's like football were I come from. Many people in my family and some of my neighbours watch it on TV, go to an occasional game once in a while, and cares about who's winning. That doesn't make them stranger than average. But the serious football fans are both dumber, uglier, more violent, less tolerant, more macho, less manly, and a lot of other things (exeptions do exist of course ;) ) I don't think the average D&D player is much different from the average football fan. The greater amount of time they spend on game related activities, the greater chance they will follow the stereotype.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-09-07, 05:27 PM	I don't think the average D&D player is much different from the average football fan. The greater importance the game has for them, the greater chance they will follow the stereotype. How many D&D players do **** like this? http://www.gamedaycolors.com/images/osu%20fan.jpg If someone came to my house to play D&D covered head-to-toe in body paint with a D20 logo emblazoned on his forehead I'd kick his ass to the curb.
Erato 07-09-07, 05:37 PM	If someone came to my house to play D&D covered head-to-toe in body paint with a D20 logo emblazoned on his forehead I'd kick his ass to the curb. Different games, different stereotypes ;) And I think the geeky stereotype is nicer :P Still, most people wouldn't identify with that guy just because they've been to a couple of football games in their life. Likewise, I've played D&D with at least one (male) nymphomaniac who could actually charm the girls, and one girl who knew (from plenty of experience) about things like how to best give a guy erection just by blowing on him. And some of the people I've played LARP and White Wolf games with are even worse. But they all had one thing in common (apart from a few (sex)crazy LARPers :P ): Roleplaying was their hobby, not their life.
Zaver 07-09-07, 05:46 PM	There was once a time? Trust me, it still happens. One of my players came in the other day to a session and said "Well, since I'm here, I'm going to Hell. Apparently. Yup, according to my mom, D&D is satan worship." He was completely serious about it, too. His mom's crazy, and I know she's not alone in her, eh, craziness. One of the players in our group has to leave her stuff at my brothers house because her mom thinks D&D is evil. Not like it's that much of a hassel for her, they practically live together. Now that I think of it only two of us are virgins so I'm pretty sure that the poll has scewed numbers because most of that 96% didn't know that "D&D rocks!" was an option.
Toran_A_Sunder 07-09-07, 05:54 PM	(apart from a few (sex)crazy LARPers :P ) Oh good. I thought it was just me who noticed that many if not most LARPers seemed to be sex crazed nymphomaniacs. I used to be a LARPer, until I got tired of all the creepy guys hitting on every woman who walked past like they were some greesey, long haired, unshaven, horny spider monkeys. Especially the more attractive female LARPers and gamers. I felt bad for those women. I truly did. Especially since one is my best friend and the best looking out of the bunch. Ugh. I feel nauseous thinking back to those days.
Professorpain 07-09-07, 07:49 PM	Actually, I don't think conventions are the right place to find the average D&D-player. I've only been to 1-2 of them, most people I game with feel the same way. Some of us play the game as a spare time hobby in an otherwise full life. Some of us put our heart and soul in the game, and spend an abnormal amount of time on gaming or game-related activities (nothing wrong with that). The second group is a lot geekier on average, and are usually over-represented at conventions. It's like football were I come from. Many people in my family and some of my neighbours watch it on TV, go to an occasional game once in a while, and cares about who's winning. That doesn't make them stranger than average. But the serious football fans are both dumber, uglier, more violent, less tolerant, more macho, less manly, and a lot of other things (exeptions do exist of course ;) ) I don't think the average D&D player is much different from the average football fan. The greater amount of time they spend on game related activities, the greater chance they will follow the stereotype. I think you are wrong. Gamers often do not realize how socially awkard they are. The majority of gamers I have met (lets say 75%) could certainly be characterized as geeks with sluggish love lives.
Mique 07-09-07, 07:54 PM	yup if either my mother in law or mother found out i was a dnd gamer they would burn me at the stake and use the books as kindling...:gah: :hides: :twitch:
Professorpain 07-09-07, 07:56 PM	Different games, different stereotypes ;) And I think the geeky stereotype is nicer :P Still, most people wouldn't identify with that guy just because they've been to a couple of football games in their life. Likewise, I've played D&D with at least one (male) nymphomaniac who could actually charm the girls, and one girl who knew (from plenty of experience) about things like how to best give a guy erection just by blowing on him. And some of the people I've played LARP and White Wolf games with are even worse. But they all had one thing in common (apart from a few (sex)crazy LARPers :P ): Roleplaying was their hobby, not their life. I think roleplaying places greater demands on a person's free time than your average hobby. Do I know socially adjusted gamers with girlfriends? Yes of course. But they are clearly the exception and not the rule. Most of the gamers I have met in my 15 years of gaming were people who failed at love and spent an excessive amount of free time gaming. That said, I too know a guy who plays D&D religiously yet is charming and has a lot of girlfriends. Finding one or two exceptions to the generally observed rule does not nulify it. The reputation of gamers as socially akward, unnattractive nerds is somewhat well deserved. I am willing to bet that if someone conducted a study, and took a random sampling of the population (say 500 gamers, and 500 non-gamers), they would find that the non-gamers (on average) had slept with more people, made more friends, and possessed more social skills than the gamers.
Erato 07-09-07, 08:07 PM	I think you are wrong. Gamers often do not realize how socially awkard they are. The majority of gamers I have met (lets say 75%) could certainly be characterized as geeks with sluggish love lives. Hm... For me, the number of 'losers' in D&D is closer to 30-35%. And in my experience, this is not so different from other roleplayers, computer gamers, goths, LARPers, people in Middle Age societies (or whatever the equivelant is called where you're from), punks, emos, people who're into gansta rap (though, in Denmark that means white sexist middle class boys :D ), extreme left/righ-wing activists ect. Even if they're 'loser' in different ways. Subcultures of any kind tend to attract people that don't live up to society's expectations, or don't quite fit in.
HK-47 II 07-09-07, 08:23 PM	Hm... For me, the number of 'losers' in D&D is closer to 30-35%. And in my experience, this is not so different from other roleplayers, computer gamers, goths, LARPers, people in Middle Age societies (or whatever the equivelant is called where you're from), punks, emos, people who're into gansta rap (though, in Denmark that means white sexist middle class boys :D ), extreme left/righ-wing activists ect. Even if they're 'loser' in different ways. Subcultures of any kind tend to attract people that don't live up to society's expectations, or don't quite fit in. (Emphasis mine) It's like that here in America too... and I agree with what you said about subcultures, but would like to add that everyone fits into atleast one subcultural group, atleast partially. That's why there is a difference between 'Ideal' culture and 'Real' Culture
Professorpain 07-09-07, 08:23 PM	Hm... For me, the number of 'losers' in D&D is closer to 30-35%. And in my experience, this is not so different from other roleplayers, computer gamers, goths, LARPers, people in Middle Age societies (or whatever the equivelant is called where you're from), punks, emos, people who're into gansta rap (though, in Denmark that means white sexist middle class boys :D ), extreme left/righ-wing activists ect. Even if they're 'loser' in different ways. Subcultures of any kind tend to attract people that don't live up to society's expectations, or don't quite fit in. I agree. All I am saying is that the specific charges leveled against D&D players are warranted. Though I dispute your 30-35% guestimation. The difference of course between gamers and people who are attached to a political group or listen to gangster rap, is that we actually construct an artificial fantasy world as a form of escapism. Not all gamers are attracted to D&D because it offers a retreat from a less than satisfying reality, but I believe that most do.
Erato 07-09-07, 08:27 PM	I think roleplaying places greater demands on a person's free time than your average hobby. Do I know socially adjusted gamers with girlfriends? Yes of course. But they are clearly the exception and not the rule. Most of the gamers I have met in my 15 years of gaming were people who failed at love and spent an excessive amount of free time gaming. That said, I too know a guy who plays D&D religiously yet is charming and has a lot of girlfriends. Finding one or two exceptions to the generally observed rule does not nulify it. The reputation of gamers as socially akward, unnattractive nerds is somewhat well deserved. I am willing to bet that if someone conducted a study, and took a random sampling of the population (say 500 gamers, and 500 non-gamers), they would find that the non-gamers (on average) had slept with more people, made more friends, and possessed more social skills than the gamers. Maybe in America (I assume you're American), but here in Denmark, fantasy is widely accepted. A very popular public service program, featuring reviews of books, comics, and games aimed at children, always features fantasy material, and sometimes books about roleplaying, and there's even a show with kids playing LARP (it's out on DVD now :) ). My old group (all in their fist/mid twenties) consisted of 12 people (they didn't all play regularily), and featured 3 guys that never had a girlfriend, 2 guys that dated their fist girlfriend (1 broke up later), 1 guy that had a girlfriend several years ago, 3 pretty experienced guys (2 of them dated for while when we played, and the other just had lots of sex), 2 experienced girls, and one girl (me) that didn't have sex because of a choice, not for lack of options. And I frequently told other gamers about them for laughs, because they were very stereotypical by Danish standards ;)
Professorpain 07-09-07, 08:31 PM	Maybe in America (I assume you're American), but here in Denmark, fantasy is widely accepted. A very popular public service program, featuring reviews of books, comics, and games aimed at children, always features fantasy material, and sometimes books about roleplaying, and there's even a show with kids playing LARP (it's out on DVD now :) ). My old group (all in their fist/mid twenties) consisted of 12 people (they didn't all play regularily), and featured 3 guys that never had a girlfriend, 2 guys that dated their fist girlfriend (1 broke up later), 1 guy that had a girlfriend several years ago, 3 pretty experienced guys (2 of them dated for while when we played, and the other just had lots of sex), 2 experienced girls, and one girl (me) that didn't have sex because of a choice, not for lack of options. And I frequently told other gamers about them for laughs, because they were very stereotypical by Danish standards ;) I was really talking more about American gamers.
Erato 07-09-07, 08:49 PM	That's what I figured, but America doesn't represent all of D&D (even if it does to Conan :rolleyes: ). But I refuse to believe it can be as bad as you say :) Maybe you just don't meet many well-adjusted gamers with girlfriends, becuase they tend to hide that they're gamers? C'mon give me something :(
koiulpoi 07-09-07, 09:02 PM	That's what I figured, but America doesn't represent all of D&D (even if it does to Conan :rolleyes: ). But I refuse to believe it can be as bad as you say :) Maybe you just don't meet many well-adjusted gamers with girlfriends, becuase they tend to hide that they're gamers? C'mon give me something :( No, it pretty much is that bad. There's a lot of guys who game and haven't touched a girl in their lives, and many who are still stuck in the gradeschool thought of "girls are grody". I'm serious. I try my damndest to not fit in with the stereotype, but I'm still a virgin. At least I shower, unlike some of the guys I know (no, I don't play with them. People who don't respect their own bodies tend to not respect much else). The other point to be noted is that the gamer girls (few and far between as they are) are rarely interested in gamer guys, even the attractive ones.
Radiun 07-09-07, 10:07 PM	*Gets on a Soap Box* I am a DnD Player AND a great Lover[if I am to believe my exes]. Hear me Roar! *Gets off his soap box and leaves*
Zaver 07-09-07, 11:54 PM	I agree. All I am saying is that the specific charges leveled against D&D players are warranted. Though I dispute your 30-35% guestimation. The difference of course between gamers and people who are attached to a political group or listen to gangster rap, is that we actually construct an artificial fantasy world as a form of escapism. Not all gamers are attracted to D&D because it offers a retreat from a less than satisfying reality, but I believe that most do. How is that different from gangster rap? As to the numbers of socially inept players it's probably impossible to just estimate how many are like that with any accuracy. It's going to come down to how you percieve people, after all one person might view some one as being awkard or abrasive while another will think them normal or even charming and pleasent. On top of that is how many people are open about it. Most people play games but few call themselves gamers. You probably see alot of people that play D&D or get up to any number of weird thing, like Maple Story, and never know.
Skoll 07-10-07, 12:21 AM	There was once a time? Trust me, it still happens. One of my players came in the other day to a session and said "Well, since I'm here, I'm going to Hell. Apparently. Yup, according to my mom, D&D is satan worship." He was completely serious about it, too. His mom's crazy, and I know she's not alone in her, eh, craziness. Same with one of our players. Our DM told his mom that he should get a players handbook so he could "learn his spells." He cant play with us anymore! lol
Professorpain 07-10-07, 12:29 AM	How is that different from gangster rap? As to the numbers of socially inept players it's probably impossible to just estimate how many are like that with any accuracy. It's going to come down to how you percieve people, after all one person might view some one as being awkard or abrasive while another will think them normal or even charming and pleasent. On top of that is how many people are open about it. Most people play games but few call themselves gamers. You probably see alot of people that play D&D or get up to any number of weird thing, like Maple Story, and never know. It is very different I think. Gansta rap people are emulating a lifestyle that comes out of contemporary culture. Gamers retreat into a fantasy world. That said there are a lot of undesirable traits that gangsta rap people possess as a group, but I do not believe they are the same traits that gamers as a group possess. Sure it is impossible to accurately estimate how many gamers are in fact socially inept. But the there is a cultural consensus in America on the issue, and it does not appear to come out of ignorance. Like I said, any time I go to a convention, or gaming store, the stereotype of gamers as socially inept geeks is mostly confirmed. Yes there different people will react differently people that are generally regarded as socially inept by the larger population, but that does not change the fact that they are percieved to be socially inept by the masses.
Zaver 07-10-07, 12:57 AM	It is very different I think. Gansta rap people are emulating a lifestyle that comes out of contemporary culture. Gamers retreat into a fantasy world. That said there are a lot of undesirable traits that gangsta rap people possess as a group, but I do not believe they are the same traits that gamers as a group possess. Sure it is impossible to accurately estimate how many gamers are in fact socially inept. But the there is a cultural consensus in America on the issue, and it does not appear to come out of ignorance. Like I said, any time I go to a convention, or gaming store, the stereotype of gamers as socially inept geeks is mostly confirmed. Yes there different people will react differently people that are generally regarded as socially inept by the larger population, but that does not change the fact that they are percieved to be socially inept by the masses. It does come out of ignorance. If you go to a feminest rally your going to be convinced that women are ***** hating nazis since that's mostly what you'll find there. Meeting morons in a game store or a flippin' convention is like meeting camels in the desert, it's their habitat. I could go into a rant about gangsta rap but I'm sure my views on that violate the CoC on numerous fronts so...
Radiun 07-10-07, 01:30 AM	I could go into a rant about gangsta rap but I'm sure my views on that violate the CoC on numerous fronts so... But then again gangsta rap violates the English language on numerous fronts and they have yet to be banned so... Moderators for English! (It was just too easy a jab to pass up, and, for all I know, it might even sum up Zaver's views XD :P)
Erato 07-10-07, 09:36 AM	It is very different I think. Gansta rap people are emulating a lifestyle that comes out of contemporary culture. Gamers retreat into a fantasy world. I don't know about America, but gansta rappers were I come from live in a fantasy world too. They pretend to be under-priviledged when they're really spoiled. They pretend to be 'oppressed' by the 'politically correct' majority of 'feminists' :rolleyes: , when the truth is that the people bothereing to complain about them is a minority and the 'giant feminist conspiracy' is nonexistant. They talk about how great they are at getting all the 'hos', while their record comapny pays strippers to be in their videos. And lets not talk about all the geeks, roleplayers, and religious people that aren't D&D players :D
Khatoblepas 07-10-07, 10:38 AM	It is very different I think. Gansta rap people are emulating a lifestyle that comes out of contemporary culture. Gamers retreat into a fantasy world. That said there are a lot of undesirable traits that gangsta rap people possess as a group, but I do not believe they are the same traits that gamers as a group possess. But.. but we undergo unholy rituals and turn into undead abominations, cast arcane magic too dangerous and evil for mortal minds to comprehend, and worship vile and often nonsensical go... waait, now I get you. ;) I don't think playing D&D is retreating into a fantasy world, more than an exercise for the imagination. I definately don't do it to escape, I do it because it's fun. It's no more escapism than any other hobby. Escaping to a romantic Jane Austen style novel, escaping to a dangerous, exciting gangsta lifestyle, escaping into science, escaping into films, escaping into the next episode of Eastenders, it's all happening in that case. But anyway, where was I? Do Gangsta wannabes escape into their own fantasy world, whilst we escape into our literal fantasy world?
NoobSaibot 07-10-07, 12:13 PM	I feel sorry for the people who have to put up with parents/others who feel that RPG's are devil worship. I once told my mom (who is alright with me playing RPG's) that there are people who believe that, and she turned to me with a look of concern and said "Really? People think that?" We are both devote Christians. :) I must have the coolest mom ever. :D
Professorpain 07-10-07, 12:14 PM	It does come out of ignorance. If you go to a feminest rally your going to be convinced that women are ***** hating nazis since that's mostly what you'll find there. Meeting morons in a game store or a flippin' convention is like meeting camels in the desert, it's their habitat. I could go into a rant about gangsta rap but I'm sure my views on that violate the CoC on numerous fronts so... But then if you went to a feminist rally you could form a generalization about feminists that would be somewhat accurate. Same thing as a gaming store or a convention. Anyways my observation doesn't come out of ignorance because I am a gamer. I am just willing to admit that the non-gamers who call us socially inept geeks have a point. Does that apply to each and every one of us? Of course not. But most of us seem to fit that description.
Professorpain 07-10-07, 12:17 PM	But.. but we undergo unholy rituals and turn into undead abominations, cast arcane magic too dangerous and evil for mortal minds to comprehend, and worship vile and often nonsensical go... waait, now I get you. ;) I don't think playing D&D is retreating into a fantasy world, more than an exercise for the imagination. I definately don't do it to escape, I do it because it's fun. It's no more escapism than any other hobby. Escaping to a romantic Jane Austen style novel, escaping to a dangerous, exciting gangsta lifestyle, escaping into science, escaping into films, escaping into the next episode of Eastenders, it's all happening in that case. But anyway, where was I? Do Gangsta wannabes escape into their own fantasy world, whilst we escape into our literal fantasy world? I used to agree with you. But I now I have to admit, someone who plays D&D (like myself) beyond their college years is trying to fill a vacuum in their life. It is different from other forms of escapism because it is interactive and you are pretending to be someone you are not (kind of like the games we used to play as children). There is something to be said for the observation that anyone who continues to play pretend into their adult years has something of a peter pan syndrome (I think you can probably say the same thing of people who spend hours each week playing online video games).
Zaver 07-10-07, 12:20 PM	But then if you went to a feminist rally you could form a generalization about feminists that would be somewhat accurate. Same thing as a gaming store or a convention. Anyways my observation doesn't come out of ignorance because I am a gamer. I am just willing to admit that the non-gamers who call us socially inept geeks have a point. Does that apply to each and every one of us? Of course not. But most of us seem to fit that description. They don't have a point. You might think they do because you hang out around the ones that are but most of us aren't like that at all. The only gamer I know that is social inept was also the only one I knew that wanted to go to conventions. Normal gamers don't go to those things. You're just wrong on this one or you live in a screwed up area.
NoobSaibot 07-10-07, 12:22 PM	I used to agree with you. But I now I have to admit, someone who plays D&D (like myself) beyond their college years is trying to fill a vacuum in their life. It is different from other forms of escapism because it is interactive and you are pretending to be someone you are not (kind of like the games we used to play as children). There is something to be said for the observation that anyone who continues to play pretend into their adult years has something of a peter pan syndrome (I think you can probably say the same thing of people who spend hours each week playing online video games). Why did we play pretend as children? Beacuse it was fun. Why do we continue to play pretend into our older years? Because it is fun. Although some may take it too far, for the most part that seems to be what D&D is about. Having fun. Take me for example. I played video games when i was young. I still play video games, although my taste in games has changed. That dosen't mean I have some problem, addiction or what have you. It was just sort of a hobby I had.
Professorpain 07-10-07, 01:05 PM	They don't have a point. You might think they do because you hang out around the ones that are but most of us aren't like that at all. The only gamer I know that is social inept was also the only one I knew that wanted to go to conventions. Normal gamers don't go to those things. You're just wrong on this one or you live in a screwed up area. No. I am affraid you are wrong. I have gamed for 15 years and the vast majority of gamers I have met fit this description. Oddly enough most of them have no idea that they do, partially because of their social ineptitude. There is a reason why most people think gamers are socially inept, because they are.
Professorpain 07-10-07, 01:07 PM	Why did we play pretend as children? Beacuse it was fun. Why do we continue to play pretend into our older years? Because it is fun. Although some may take it too far, for the most part that seems to be what D&D is about. Having fun. Take me for example. I played video games when i was young. I still play video games, although my taste in games has changed. That dosen't mean I have some problem, addiction or what have you. It was just sort of a hobby I had. I am not passing judgment on it. Of course we game because it is fun. But these are activities that most mature adults let go of before they leave highschool. We have to ask ourselves why we continue to play childish games. Of course we do it because it is fun for us, but why do we continue to find it fun, when other adults no longer do. All I am saying is, like it or not, we are different from the general population.
Zaver 07-10-07, 01:14 PM	No. I am affraid you are wrong. I have gamed for 15 years and the vast majority of gamers I have met fit this description. Oddly enough most of them have no idea that they do, partially because of their social ineptitude. There is a reason why most people think gamers are socially inept, because they are. I don't care how long you've been gaming, it doesn't change that you're agreeing with the idea that we're inept based off meeting people at conventions. Of all the gamers I've ever known only one was socially inept and he was the only one that wanted to go to conventions. If I was going to do the percentage thing like you that would be less then 10%. You can go ahead and think that gamers are exactly what people think they are because of people at conventions and game stores but it's like judging whites off of a KKK rally or all humans from the American Congress. You're making an assumption on all gamers from a target group that is made up of a minority of gamers that even other gamers think are dorks most of the time.
Paladin_Hiroshi 07-10-07, 01:26 PM	...I live in England, and I've never had anyone call me a satanist, I go to church and noone makes a big deal out of it and the last time someone called me a nerd I did kick their ass to the pavement. Yes that's right. Pavement. :D I think America gets a bum deal, cos they have some great D&D players, yet they also have some of the worst people on god's earth xD. Think about it, you have some of the fine unpstanding people on this site, and then again...you have a guy who runs 'God hates fags' and you have compton, and south central los angeles, and scary people who shouldnt be allowed within 4 miles of a church, let alone run one. :) just my two coppers. (I'm not anti-american, I'm anti-moron)
Zaver 07-10-07, 01:29 PM	(I'm not anti-american, I'm anti-moron) Then as an American I feel it's my duty to inform you that you are in fact anti-american.:P
Professorpain 07-10-07, 02:06 PM	I don't care how long you've been gaming, it doesn't change that you're agreeing with the idea that we're inept based off meeting people at conventions. Of all the gamers I've ever known only one was socially inept and he was the only one that wanted to go to conventions. If I was going to do the percentage thing like you that would be less then 10%. You can go ahead and think that gamers are exactly what people think they are because of people at conventions and game stores but it's like judging whites off of a KKK rally or all humans from the American Congress. You're making an assumption on all gamers from a target group that is made up of a minority of gamers that even other gamers think are dorks most of the time. What makes you think I am only basing it off of conventions. I am saying it has also been true in my gaming groups, at the local hobby shops, on these boards, and among friends of mine who game. If you think the number is 10% then you must be gaming with some unusual people. I am making an assumption about all gamers based on my experience as a gamer (which contrary to your assertion does in fact mean something) and my experience observing gamers. How else do you want me to formulate my opinion? By your standards it would be impossible to form any opinion at all on the subject because no amount of sampling is going to be enough for you. No need to get hostile. I am just stating the obvious. I am also a gamer. I think there is nothing wrong with gaming. But you have to admit we are a fairly akward crowd.
Professorpain 07-10-07, 02:10 PM	...I live in England, and I've never had anyone call me a satanist, I go to church and noone makes a big deal out of it and the last time someone called me a nerd I did kick their ass to the pavement. Yes that's right. Pavement. :D I think America gets a bum deal, cos they have some great D&D players, yet they also have some of the worst people on god's earth xD. Think about it, you have some of the fine unpstanding people on this site, and then again...you have a guy who runs 'God hates fags' and you have compton, and south central los angeles, and scary people who shouldnt be allowed within 4 miles of a church, let alone run one. :) just my two coppers. (I'm not anti-american, I'm anti-moron) No need to bring real world politics into the discussion. Your post is in fact very anti-American and highly offensive. Yes we have bad areas like you mentioned, but so does everywhere else.
Paladin_Hiroshi 07-10-07, 02:10 PM	Then as an American I feel it's my duty to inform you that you are in fact anti-american.:P ...oh ok :D I have no problem with that. :P
Zaver 07-10-07, 05:14 PM	What makes you think I am only basing it off of conventions. I am saying it has also been true in my gaming groups, at the local hobby shops, on these boards, and among friends of mine who game. If you think the number is 10% then you must be gaming with some unusual people. I am making an assumption about all gamers based on my experience as a gamer (which contrary to your assertion does in fact mean something) and my experience observing gamers. How else do you want me to formulate my opinion? By your standards it would be impossible to form any opinion at all on the subject because no amount of sampling is going to be enough for you. No need to get hostile. I am just stating the obvious. I am also a gamer. I think there is nothing wrong with gaming. But you have to admit we are a fairly akward crowd. I got the idea that you're basing it off conventions because you kept saying it. And hobby shops are the same thing, only a certain type of people go there. That's the entire point of what I've been saying, you're statement that 75% of gamers are exactly what people think we are is based off a small group and you kept bringing up conventions. Most people that go to conventions are the negative stereotype just like people that hang out at game stores. You're opinion isn't formed off actual gamers, just a small selection that is more likely to give you the nutters. If you want to say gaming experience matters then I should say I'm 23 and have been gaming since small and in all that time only one person fits the stereotype and they had issues. So it goes back to what I've already said, you're just wrong or you live in an area that's pretty screwed up and only offers you bad gamers to play with.
Erato 07-10-07, 07:57 PM	Professorpain, I agree with Zaver. While I might not be American, I see no reason for the pattern to be different than in my country: The more people fit the (negative) 'geeky' stereotype, the more likely they are to hang around gaming stores and go to conventions. In fact, I can imagine this to be even more true in America, where people not wanting that negative stereotype slapped on them, will be more likely to keep their gaming private.
Sim_antix 07-10-07, 08:00 PM	(I'm not anti-american, I'm anti-moron) Liar, lawyer, mirror show me, whats the difference?
Professorpain 07-10-07, 08:02 PM	I got the idea that you're basing it off conventions because you kept saying it. And hobby shops are the same thing, only a certain type of people go there. That's the entire point of what I've been saying, you're statement that 75% of gamers are exactly what people think we are is based off a small group and you kept bringing up conventions. Most people that go to conventions are the negative stereotype just like people that hang out at game stores. You're opinion isn't formed off actual gamers, just a small selection that is more likely to give you the nutters. If you want to say gaming experience matters then I should say I'm 23 and have been gaming since small and in all that time only one person fits the stereotype and they had issues. So it goes back to what I've already said, you're just wrong or you live in an area that's pretty screwed up and only offers you bad gamers to play with. Well, I am over 30 and have been gaming seriously since I was 15. I have met both gamers who hang out in gaming stores, and gamers who do not. Anyways I was not talking about gamers who 'hang out' habitually in gaming stores, but simply gamers I have met in gaming stores while getting gaming supplies. Most of the gamers I have met shared a notable trait, they were socially inept. No need to get hostile or take it personally. Its observable if you are paying attention. Gamers lack social skills as a group. There are exceptions, but most fit the stereotype. There is no need to pretend that our hobby is any cooler than it actually is (same for the people who play D&D--you may want to think their cool, but they are not). I don't mind admitting that I lack social skills.
Professorpain 07-10-07, 08:06 PM	Professorpain, I agree with Zaver. While I might not be American, I see no reason for the pattern to be different than in my country: The more people fit the (negative) 'geeky' stereotype, the more likely they are to hang around gaming stores and go to conventions. In fact, I can imagine this to be even more true in America, where people not wanting that negative stereotype slapped on them, will be more likely to keep their gaming private. Have you been to America or met American gamers? I am telling you, I have been into this hobby for a while now and most of us fit the stereotype. I should point out that almost all of the people I have gamed with do not go to conventions. I recognize that their is going to be more concentrated nerdiness at such events. But even outside of 'convention gamers' the stereotype holds. Its true though most gamers that I know make an effort to conceal their hobby from others. I think I have met a fairly representative sampling of gamers in my time.
Zaver 07-10-07, 08:57 PM	Well, I am over 30 and have been gaming seriously since I was 15. I have met both gamers who hang out in gaming stores, and gamers who do not. Anyways I was not talking about gamers who 'hang out' habitually in gaming stores, but simply gamers I have met in gaming stores while getting gaming supplies. Most of the gamers I have met shared a notable trait, they were socially inept. No need to get hostile or take it personally. Its observable if you are paying attention. Gamers lack social skills as a group. There are exceptions, but most fit the stereotype. There is no need to pretend that our hobby is any cooler than it actually is (same for the people who play D&D--you may want to think their cool, but they are not). I don't mind admitting that I lack social skills. It's not a matter of trying to make D&D cool or acting like the players are cool. I just think you're wrong about our comunity. It might be your experience that most gamers are what people make them out to be but my experience shows that it's not the case. As I've said, I've only known one gamer who couldn't operate in a social situation the same as any one else and he had serious issues. We're talking stabbing a guy in the hand for claiming to be a vampire and punching his friends as hard as he can for not liking his favorite video game.
UFCCHAMP 07-10-07, 09:01 PM	It's not a matter of trying to make D&D cool or acting like the players are cool. I just think you're wrong about our comunity. It might be your experience that most gamers are what people make them out to be but my experience shows that it's not the case. As I've said, I've only known one gamer who couldn't operate in a social situation the same as any one else and he had serious issues. We're talking stabbing a guy in the hand for claiming to be a vampire and punching his friends as hard as he can for not liking his favorite video game. Sounds like you hang with a strange crowd Zaver. I say it is more like 60%/40%. There is usually a few more socially challenged guys in a campaign than regular folk.
Professorpain 07-10-07, 09:03 PM	It's not a matter of trying to make D&D cool or acting like the players are cool. I just think you're wrong about our comunity. It might be your experience that most gamers are what people make them out to be but my experience shows that it's not the case. As I've said, I've only known one gamer who couldn't operate in a social situation the same as any one else and he had serious issues. We're talking stabbing a guy in the hand for claiming to be a vampire and punching his friends as hard as he can for not liking his favorite video game. I believe that your experience of the gaming community is different from mine. But I also think that my experience matches most other peoples' whereas yours does not.
Zaver 07-10-07, 09:16 PM	I believe that your experience of the gaming community is different from mine. But I also think that my experience matches most other peoples' whereas yours does not. That's not a matter of belief, it's an irrefutable fact.:P Perhaps most gamers do fit the stereotype, but I just don't see it having odds worth mentioning. I've known gamers from all manner of life styles and places. I cannot see how the stereotype can be accurate with the experience of the comunity that I've had. To many different people with only gaming in common and only one person. For me that stereotype is as abusrd as the idea that video games are making us violent homocidal lunatics.
Professorpain 07-10-07, 09:23 PM	That's not a matter of belief, it's an irrefutable fact.:P Perhaps most gamers do fit the stereotype, but I just don't see it having odds worth mentioning. I've known gamers from all manner of life styles and places. I cannot see how the stereotype can be accurate with the experience of the comunity that I've had. To many different people with only gaming in common and only one person. For me that stereotype is as abusrd as the idea that video games are making us violent homocidal lunatics. Not to push any more buttons but there is data emerging that the percieved connection between violence and certain kinds of video games is somewhat true (though from what I understand its the games that involve shooting where the connection is most visible--a guy named Rosenfield from GMU in Virginia was talking about this on NPR about a year ago). The research is still debatable and has only really just begun, but just because we might want their to be no connection, that does not mean that there is not one.
Zaver 07-10-07, 09:45 PM	Not to push any more buttons but there is data emerging that the percieved connection between violence and certain kinds of video games is somewhat true (though from what I understand its the games that involve shooting where the connection is most visible--a guy named Rosenfield from GMU in Virginia was talking about this on NPR about a year ago). The research is still debatable and has only really just begun, but just because we might want their to be no connection, that does not mean that there is not one. Oh for the love of the Gods! People aren't made violent because they play a damn FPS! They play those ****ing games because they're violent to begin with. The only reason any one tries to connect playing video games with school shootings and any other act of violence is because they're stupid small minded fools desperate to find something they can get rid of to stop horrible things from happening.
Erato 07-10-07, 09:49 PM	And now I find myself agreeing with Professorpain. This is very strange :confused:
Professorpain 07-10-07, 09:50 PM	Oh for the love of the Gods! People aren't made violent because they play a damn FPS! They play those ****ing games because they're violent to begin with. The only reason any one tries to connect playing video games with school shootings and any other act of violence is because they're stupid small minded fools desperate to find something they can get rid of to stop horrible things from happening. Well, like I said the research is hardly conclusive and very new, just dont brush it off so easily is all I am saying. Actually that guy Rosenfield set out to show that video games were not related to violence and found the opposite (from what I understand his research methods were tight). Anyways no one is arguing that a peaceful person is going to go on a killing spree because of video gamers, but maybe people who are easily influenced or motivated by media could react that way. I do not know, I am not an expert. But I expect there is probably some kind of link. I imagine it is also possible that violent video games could feed pre-existing violent tendancies or obsessions. I am certainly not arguing for the hypodermic needle model of media (where we are 100% influence by the media we absorb), but I also think the notion that media has absolutely no influence on our behavior to be equally feeble.
Zaver 07-10-07, 09:59 PM	Well, like I said the research is hardly conclusive and very new, just dont brush it off so easily is all I am saying. Actually that guy Rosenfield set out to show that video games were not related to violence and found the opposite (from what I understand his research methods were tight). Anyways no one is arguing that a peaceful person is going to go on a killing spree because of video gamers, but maybe people who are easily influenced or motivated by media could react that way. I do not know, I am not an expert. But I expect there is probably some kind of link. I imagine it is also possible that violent video games could feed pre-existing violent tendancies or obsessions. I am certainly not arguing for the hypodermic needle model of media (where we are 100% influence by the media we absorb), but I also think the notion that media has absolutely no influence on our behavior to be equally feeble. No ones arguing that peaceful people play games and then go kill? Jack Thompson. That's that part done. Yes, I'll accept that violent games can increase agression but the link between violence and video games exists because people that are given to that mind set go for those games. Finding out that it's there is like finding your toes. Research like that is as pointless as the research some state funded to find out why prisoners try to escape.
Radiun 07-10-07, 10:42 PM	Not to push any more buttons but there is data emerging that the percieved connection between violence and certain kinds of video games is somewhat true (though from what I understand its the games that involve shooting where the connection is most visible--a guy named Rosenfield from GMU in Virginia was talking about this on NPR about a year ago). The research is still debatable and has only really just begun, but just because we might want their to be no connection, that does not mean that there is not one. Videogames do cause violence, one time my brother beat me at Tecmo Football, so I threw the controller at him. Case in point. -The Dan On a more serious note, I've done a fair number of projects on these types of researches, and found them to be heavily biased, or omitting important facts and variables. Then again, perhaps the research you read was better pursued.
Professorpain 07-10-07, 11:32 PM	No ones arguing that peaceful people play games and then go kill? Jack Thompson. That's that part done. Yes, I'll accept that violent games can increase agression but the link between violence and video games exists because people that are given to that mind set go for those games. Finding out that it's there is like finding your toes. Research like that is as pointless as the research some state funded to find out why prisoners try to escape. Your position has not been demonstrated by the research.
Professorpain 07-10-07, 11:33 PM	Videogames do cause violence, one time my brother beat me at Tecmo Football, so I threw the controller at him. Case in point. -The Dan On a more serious note, I've done a fair number of projects on these types of researches, and found them to be heavily biased, or omitting important facts and variables. Then again, perhaps the research you read was better pursued. In any area there are going to be some studies that are biased. The studies I looked at on this subject were all out of major universities with strong communication and psychology departments, and I found them to be very objective.
Radiun 07-11-07, 12:56 AM	In any area there are going to be some studies that are biased. The studies I looked at on this subject were all out of major universities with strong communication and psychology departments, and I found them to be very objective. Too bad I was a psychology student too, using University or Higher materials as sources then eh? ;) Ah well, it's very possible that you were lucky enough to find studies which didn't ignore too many variables to be valid :) If so, would it be possible to post a link to the works or were you working out of books?
Zaver 07-11-07, 10:44 AM	Your position has not been demonstrated by the research. Just common sense and every gamer on the planet.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-11-07, 11:38 AM	Not to push any more buttons but there is data emerging that the percieved connection between violence and certain kinds of video games is somewhat true (though from what I understand its the games that involve shooting where the connection is most visible--a guy named Rosenfield from GMU in Virginia was talking about this on NPR about a year ago). The research is still debatable and has only really just begun, but just because we might want their to be no connection, that does not mean that there is not one. Actually, the research has been going on for a very long time and largely disproves this Mr. Rosenfield's claims. Most studies conclude that violent games increase violent emotions and thoughts, but that these fade quickly once one stops playing and that they do not translate into violent actions. In other words, while playing an aggressive game you feel aggressive, but after the game is over the feelings fade and you are no more likely to commit any aggressive acts than you were before or than someone who had no played the game. I talked to someone at university who was part of a psych study on this topic and he told me that the trend was actually for those who played violent games to show decreased aggression for a period afterwards. The games seem to actually helped to purge feelings of aggression one might already be feeling.
Escef 07-11-07, 11:45 AM	Actually, the research has been going on fro a very long time and largely disproves this Mr. Rosenfield's claims. Most studies conclude that violent games increase violent emotions and thoughts, but that these fade quickly once one stops playing and that they do not translate into violent actions. In other words, while playing an aggressive game you feel aggressive, but after the game is over the feelings fade and you are no more likely to commit any aggressive acts than you were before or than someone who had no played the game. There have been similar studies done on sports, iirc. And the conclusions were pretty much the same, also iirc.
Professorpain 07-11-07, 12:38 PM	Actually, the research has been going on for a very long time and largely disproves this Mr. Rosenfield's claims. Most studies conclude that violent games increase violent emotions and thoughts, but that these fade quickly once one stops playing and that they do not translate into violent actions. In other words, while playing an aggressive game you feel aggressive, but after the game is over the feelings fade and you are no more likely to commit any aggressive acts than you were before or than someone who had no played the game. I talked to someone at university who was part of a psych study on this topic and he told me that the trend was actually for those who played violent games to show decreased aggression for a period afterwards. The games seem to actually helped to purge feelings of aggression one might already be feeling. This does not match the research I have seen. If you read Mr. Rosenfield's research you would see that his conclusions largely support your (and Zaver's argument), and that I was simply stating that there is some link between the two. There are different models for understanding how media influences behavior and the most accepted right now is in between the two extremes of it having no influence and having absolute influence. If you are selective about the research you read than yes you can make claims like the one you are making. But if you are objective about it, you will find that the research is moving toward the conclusion that (like food) media (including--especially--video games) does have a cummulative effect on our (mental) health. A steady diet of violent video games will influence your attitude toward violence. There are a lot of variables that need to be considered too (upbringing, pre-existing mental conditions, trauma), but the media we consume is one of many, many factors that shapes who we are. As far as I know, none of the major research has ever concluded that media consumption has no long term effects. Let me be absolutely clear. I am not anti-violent video games. I think they are fine to play, and that most people can fit them into their lives with little to know negative effect (perhaps even finding some kind release through their use). However, I do believe that it is a bad idea not to monitor your child's video game content for violence. If you can help them balance it out and contextualize it, then thats fine. But if you drop a kid in front of the TV and let them play violent video games for hours, then I think this can lead to violent behavior. Like I said, it is part of an over-all diet. If you let your child eat cookies all day, he is not going to be healthy. But a few cookies here and there are fine. Same with violent video games and other media. I do not know what studies your friend participated in, but unless you want to dispute the APA, the findings are pretty clear: http://www.apa.org/science/psa/sb-anderson.html http://www.apa.org/releases/videogames.html Of course you are right it depends on who you read. Some researchers dispute Anderson's claims. Rosenfield being one of them. He in fact argued that some violent video gamers were in fact good for children. But he also found that other kinds could indeed be harmful. That is why I mentioned him in the first place. Because his research actually disproves the notion that violent video games are always bad. I am just arguing for middle ground here.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-11-07, 12:53 PM	A steady diet of violent video games will influence your attitude toward violence. That is a deceptively broad and ultimately meaningless statement. Every single thing one experiences in one's life influences them in some way. "Influence" as also a somewhat loaded word in this usage as it can connote both positive and/or negative influence. However, I do believe that it is a bad idea not to monitor your child's video game content for violence. If you can help them balance it out and contextualize it, then thats fine. But if you drop a kid in front of the TV and let them play violent video games for hours, then I think this can lead to violent behavior. Like I said, it is part of an over-all diet. If you let your child eat cookies all day, he is not going to be healthy. But a few cookies here and there are fine. Same with violent video games and other media. It is a terrible idea to let your kid do anything he wants in any context, media of otherwise, without monitoring and supervising his activities. I would no more let a kid of mine play Grand Theft Auto (far and away my favorite game series, despite the fact I am almost distressingly non-violent in real-life) than I'd let him watch a Scorsese film.
Professorpain 07-11-07, 01:04 PM	That is a deceptively broad and ultimately meaningless statement. Every single thing one experiences in one's life influences them in some way. "Influence" as also a somewhat loaded word in this usage as it can connote both positive and/or negative influence. It is a terrible idea to let your kid do anything he wants in any context, media of otherwise, without monitoring and supervising his activities. I would no more let a kid of mine play Grand Theft Auto (far and away my favorite game series, despite the fact I am almost distressingly non-violent in real-life) than I'd let him watch a Scorsese film. No it is actually rather specific. But let me qualify it by saying that violent media has a larger impact than many other influences and deserves special attention. I am not arguing that we are sponges for media influence (though some people with serious metal health problems may be). But I think media over time, contributes to how we view the world and even how we behave. I think we agree on this issue more than you realize. I am just pointing out that Zaver's claim that there is no link, is not backed up by the research.l Just like there is a link between eating lots of fast food and heart disease. Most of us can enjoy violent video games responsibly. But there are always going to be people who model their behavior after violent video games or films (who might not even have acted violently unless they were exposed to it in the first place). Does that mean we should ban violent video games? No. But we should be aware of certain personalities that will react to them. WE should also be aware of the influence media has on children. Now you or I probably never let our child play Grand Theft Auto (because we understand children cannot contextualize the violence the way we can). But many, many people are not like us and do in fact allow their children to play games like this and watch violent movies. You and I are clearly on the same page here, we do not disagree that letting you child watch or play excessively violent media is a bad idea. And this should be obvious to everyone, but unfortunately it isn't.
Escef 07-11-07, 01:49 PM	I've said it before, and I'll say it again: A child who gets beat by his parents regularly and plays My Little Pony: Quest for the Magic Hay (note: may not be an actual game) is far more likely to be violent than a child in a normal household playing Slaughter Babies and Cute Woodland Animals VII (once again, may not be an actual game).
Professorpain 07-11-07, 02:04 PM	I've said it before, and I'll say it again: A child who gets beat by his parents regularly and plays My Little Pony: Quest for the Magic Hay (note: may not be an actual game) is far more likely to be violent than a child in a normal household playing Slaughter Babies and Cute Woodland Animals VII (once again, may not be an actual game). Of course. I am not disputing that. However two children raised in normal homes, where one plays violent video games and the other plays my little pony is going to yield different results. But I am not going to argue that the role of parenting isn't more important than the role of media in determining such things.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-11-07, 02:05 PM	Slaughter Babies and Cute Woodland Animals VII (once again, may not be an actual game). It damn well should be! ;)
The_Clumsy_Robot 07-11-07, 02:27 PM	My Little Pony: Quest for the Magic Hay The boss rush after Level 4 is a pain.
Zaver 07-11-07, 02:46 PM	I think we agree on this issue more than you realize. I am just pointing out that Zaver's claim that there is no link, is not backed up by the research. If could at least try to pay attention it would make talking to you easier. I have said there is a link in pretty much every post I've made. I just say that the stance that video games make us more violent is a confusion of cause and effect. It's also pointless to talk about the effect it has on children because it's blatantly obvious that kids well grow up to be what they've been shown as a child. The idea that video games make an adult more violent then any other is absurd how ever, any increase in agression is neglagible and easily linked to any number of things. Never mind all that though, You and I've already argued about the gamers we know, how many of your socially inept crowd are more violent then any other person you know? You don't need some university research paper when looking at your own friends and ascioates shows you every thing you need to know.
Professorpain 07-11-07, 03:14 PM	If could at least try to pay attention it would make talking to you easier. I have said there is a link in pretty much every post I've made. I just say that the stance that video games make us more violent is a confusion of cause and effect. It's also pointless to talk about the effect it has on children because it's blatantly obvious that kids well grow up to be what they've been shown as a child. The idea that video games make an adult more violent then any other is absurd how ever, any increase in agression is neglagible and easily linked to any number of things. Never mind all that though, You and I've already argued about the gamers we know, how many of your socially inept crowd are more violent then any other person you know? You don't need some university research paper when looking at your own friends and ascioates shows you every thing you need to know. Obviously I am talking about a causal link, which you seem to be denying exists. What you are talking about are variables, which any decent study is going to take into consideration. The existence of variables does not mean it is impossible to reach a valid conclusion on the matter through research. Based on personal experience working form when I worked in a children;s programs. The kids who had exposure at home to violent games and movies were typically more aggressive than the kids who were not allowed to watch or play violent video games (of course it is likely that parents who prohibit such things are more involved in their kids lives in general, so I realize this anecdote is not very useful). I am not the one knocking research, you are. In the case of socially inept gamers, there has not been a tremendous amount of research. Anyways social skills are not very easy to measure for research. They usually involve questionaires that reflect more how the person sees himself than others see him. And yes I consider myself a violent person. I enjoy fighting alot. But your claim that there is no causal link, is just not backed up by the research. Again, I am talking an amount of influence that we can easily control if we are aware of it.
Zaver 07-11-07, 04:08 PM	Obviously I am talking about a causal link, which you seem to be denying exists. What you are talking about are variables, which any decent study is going to take into consideration. The existence of variables does not mean it is impossible to reach a valid conclusion on the matter through research. Based on personal experience working form when I worked in a children;s programs. The kids who had exposure at home to violent games and movies were typically more aggressive than the kids who were not allowed to watch or play violent video games (of course it is likely that parents who prohibit such things are more involved in their kids lives in general, so I realize this anecdote is not very useful). I am not the one knocking research, you are. In the case of socially inept gamers, there has not been a tremendous amount of research. Anyways social skills are not very easy to measure for research. They usually involve questionaires that reflect more how the person sees himself than others see him. And yes I consider myself a violent person. I enjoy fighting alot. But your claim that there is no causal link, is just not backed up by the research. Again, I am talking an amount of influence that we can easily control if we are aware of it. Did you not see the point when I said it's pointless to talk about it in children because it's clearly there? I'm done with you and this asinine subject.
Professorpain 07-11-07, 04:45 PM	Did you not see the point when I said it's pointless to talk about it in children because it's clearly there? I'm done with you and this asinine subject. No need to get hostile. Just because I do not agree with your argument, that does not mean I am ignoring what you type.
Zaver 07-11-07, 05:15 PM	No need to get hostile. Just because I do not agree with your argument, that does not mean I am ignoring what you type. I wasn't trying to be hostile, well I was but my ear is clogged and it's been driving me insane so I was rather short with you.
Optimized_Commoner 07-11-07, 05:22 PM	Based on personal experience working form when I worked in a children;s programs. The kids who had exposure at home to violent games and movies were typically more aggressive than the kids who were not allowed to watch or play violent video games (of course it is likely that parents who prohibit such things are more involved in their kids lives in general, so I realize this anecdote is not very useful). This is exactly opposite to my experience. I've found that children who are absolutely forbidden from violence tend to become fascinated by violence and are easily addicted by a small exposure often ending up more violent then those constantly overexposed to it. I would say that a healthy balance is far better than underexposure or excess, both of which present potential problems. Are you sure you didn't simply mistake the general (parents with a controlling and active role in the children's life) for the specific (parents who banned violent movies and games)? It's one of the easiest mistakes in science to make right after confusing cause and effect. ... Anyway, on the original topic, D&D varies more than sex but a good game of D&D is better than sex. However, getting both is better and there's nothing stopping you.
Zaver 07-11-07, 05:33 PM	Anyway, on the original topic, D&D varies more than sex but a good game of D&D is better than sex. However, getting both is better and there's nothing stopping you. Espiecally if you can combine the two. But I'm a nutter who thinks chicks in armor (proper armor mind, not fantasy metal lingerie) with swords look hot so it might just be me and five other guys.
Professorpain 07-11-07, 05:57 PM	This is exactly opposite to my experience. I've found that children who are absolutely forbidden from violence tend to become fascinated by violence and are easily addicted by a small exposure often ending up more violent then those constantly overexposed to it. I would say that a healthy balance is far better than underexposure or excess, both of which present potential problems. Are you sure you didn't simply mistake the general (parents with a controlling and active role in the children's life) for the specific (parents who banned violent movies and games)? It's one of the easiest mistakes in science to make right after confusing cause and effect. ... . I may have confounded the two, which is why I said my example was a bad one in my posting. I think it is really hard to seperate the two. However I never found what you did, that underexposure increases fascination with violence. IF anything the kids who had the least exposure were the least violent (but like I said, that implies other parental factors anyways). I do not think underexposure can really be a problem. A generation or two ago most kids were underexposed to violent media. As long as kids are not saturated with it, and have involved parents, there is unlikely to be a problem. But this notion that violent media has no effect on children, is not supported by the science. Sex is better than D&D (provided it is good sex).
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-12-07, 10:19 AM	Anyway, on the original topic, D&D varies more than sex but a good game of D&D is better than sex. Hogwash. IMO anyone who says "_____ is better than sex" has clearly never had great sex.
Zaver 07-12-07, 10:39 AM	Hogwash. IMO anyone who says "_____ is better than sex" has clearly never had great sex. Maybe you've never had a good game of D&D...:P
Ranger REG 07-13-07, 03:23 AM	Maybe you've never had a good game of D&D...:P Hey, with D&D I can pull an all-nighter (from sundown to sunup). With sex, I'm done before CSI is on. ;)
Professorpain 07-13-07, 09:30 AM	Hey, with D&D I can pull an all-nighter (from sundown to sunup). With sex, I'm done before CSI is on. ;) There are herbal supplements that can help you get past CSI.
Ranger REG 07-13-07, 08:23 PM	There are herbal supplements that can help you get past CSI. Pray tell, what herbal supplement? And for the record, I did not inhale. :P
Zaver 07-13-07, 08:40 PM	Pray tell, what herbal supplement? And for the record, I did not inhale. :P Unagi! Power!