Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrushDugan 03-23-08, 02:27 PM	Hello everyone, I'm hoping that this is the most appropriate forum in with to discuss my questions and concerns with a redesign of Wyrmlord Koth, as I know there are many here who are intimately familiar with the RHoD campaign. If any of my people are reading this stop now or Koth gets all these abilities regardless of the advice I recieve! (this means you Roy) Like many others here I was unsatisfied with some of the classes chosen for the iconic leaders of the Red Hand. For example, I felt that the flavor for Wyrmlord Kharn as a divinely inspired general fit perfectly with the Crusader Class. Miha Serahi finds her manipulative skills in the Beguiler class. When it came time to redesign Koth, I kept on asking myself why was he chosen as a wyrmlord? What skills did he offer Azarr Kul that were not already available in the form of his loyal War Adepts? Clearly, the abilities of Koth as a sorcerer, in my mind, did not represent the value Azarr Kul saw in him. When looking a new build for him, I knew I wanted to keep the arcane caster type, but needed something a little more memorable and iconic that your standard "I-cast-the-big-spells-that-cause-the-damage" sorcerer. So, I took a look at the warlock class, and stumbled across the lesser invocation "The dead walk" which gives you the ability to use animate dead, at will, even without the material components. Oh-ho, I said! Now here is an ability of great value to Azarr Kul and Kharn. Something that can really ensure victory on the battlefield. An endless supply of foot soldiers limited only by the amount of dead bodies you have lying around. Even the surplus that Koth could not himself control, can be controlled by the clerics and warpriests. Now that my game has started I am growing concerned that the fight will be too much for them, and so I am asking your opinions on how you feel about the following abilities and tactics, and whether they are appropriate for my group. Before we get into the abilities; here is the group. Note that they have no access to turn undead, and very little AOE. Baccara Drudannen, Half-wild elf Ranger3/Scout2/Swordsage1 - Swift hunter dual wielder with swift hunter feat. Ohlia - Half elf Druid5/Monk1 with VoP known now as the Saint of Beasts. Camus- Dragonborn Favored Soul of Bahamut 6 - Good healer when he feels like it. Also, plot hook extraordinare, for dragging the party all the way to the Elsir Vale. Micheal- Sorc5/ Spellthief1 - Master spellthief focusing on ray spells and eventually going for Spellwarp Sniper. Slain- Teifling Rogue3/ Fighter 2- Double Kukri action. ANYWHO. Koth is unquestionably loyal to his men, especially his right hand cow-man Karkilan, so he would never kill his own men in order to create undead. However, IF you die, Koth sees it as your duty to keep on fighting. As such, there are no undead in the keep when the party arrives, but anyone killed is up for grabs. His feats relate to his interest in the undead. Corpsecrafter (LM)- (+4 str and +2hp per HD for created undead)- I feel ok about this feat from the most part. The minions made from the worgs, worg riders and veterans help in preventing my melee guys from slaughtering Koth in a round or two. I'm worried about Koth turning the Minotaur into a Zombie though. He would end up having 105 hp and 25 str, with a 3d6+10 greataxe with reach. OUCH. Opinions? Destruction Retribution (LM) Turns undead into bombs of negative energy when they are destroyed. 1d6+1d6 for every 2 HD possessed by the undead. Ten foot radius of effect. The minotaur would do 7d6. Also interesting as the explosions heal other undead in the radius. I am very nervous about this feat, as I feel if my party doesnt catch on that they should kill these guys from range, they will quickly kill themselves. Opinions? Practiced Spellcaster-- This one make for a great mid battle plot but may also be the most dangerous. With this feat not only can Koth control many more HD of undead, but he would also have been taking a strong interest in the giant skeletons lying about. A skeletal Forest giant is a Huge 13 HD monstrosity. If I used this, I would have one skeleton being carefully cleaned and prepared in the courtyard. It would be obvious to the PC's that this is of particular importance. During the battle with Koth and Karkilan, when thing are going badly for them, I would have Koth scream for the minotaur to grab "the stone" from his study. This would be the onxy stone Koth has been preparing for the giants skeleton in order to make the animate spell permanent; as Koth refuses to "waste a month's worth of work". He feels that the giant will be his finest work and solidify his value in the eyes of Azar Kul. The rounds where Karkilan goes to retrieve the massive carved rock would be vital to the party's success. How do all feel about this addition to the fight? Would your opinion change if the skeleton only had his claws to rely on? I appreciate all your input. My goal is to create a difficult (but not overwhelming) fight that my players will remember for a long time to come. -Cheers
CastTiltowait 03-23-08, 11:07 PM	This is an interesting concept that makes for a very different battle. I've two critiques, one on the basic concept and the other on one of the feats. 1. Making Koth a source of undead kind of throws chapter 3 into question. Why bother with the GL (and risking his wrath) if the horde already has a friendly, willing source of undead? This also has the possibility of causing issues with one of the appeals of RHoD, which is the variety of challenges, etc. between the various chapters. I know what you mean about "why Koth?" but I find it interesting that with the (possible) exception of Kharn, none of the wyrmlords are rank and file type hobgoblins. Ulwai is an outsider because of her appearance. Perhaps the key characteristic for a wyrmlord is not necessarily what power they bring to the horde, but their personality or ability to think outside the army's box. 2. If you do go with the undead raising Koth, the feat that could unbalance things is the "Destruction Retribution" one. You note that the only real way to deal with this is to attack from range. Your players seem pretty focused on close-in melee which may lead to them to being stuck in the midst of battle before they realize their danger, and then it's too late to pull out of range. Also, Vraath Keep doesn't lend itself to ranged combat unless someone can get up on a wall.
CastTiltowait 03-24-08, 12:34 AM	Delete double post
Gerry 03-24-08, 06:59 AM	Hello everyone, I'm hoping that this is the most appropriate forum in with to discuss my questions and concerns with a redesign of Wyrmlord Koth, as I know there are many here who are intimately familiar with the RHoD campaign. Well I think you've come to the right place. Like many others here I was unsatisfied with some of the classes chosen for the iconic leaders of the Red Hand. For example, I felt that the flavor for Wyrmlord Kharn as a divinely inspired general fit perfectly with the Crusader Class. Miha Serahi finds her manipulative skills in the Beguiler class. When it came time to redesign Koth, I kept on asking myself why was he chosen as a wyrmlord? What skills did he offer Azarr Kul that were not already available in the form of his loyal War Adepts? Those are all problems of using "Core", which RHoD authors stuck to, for the most part. Okay, new monsters, but the character levels in the NPCs are all core. (Showing how passe' core, especially Core Prestige, has become) Clearly, the abilities of Koth as a sorcerer, in my mind, did not represent the value Azarr Kul saw in him. When looking a new build for him, I knew I wanted to keep the arcane caster type, but needed something a little more memorable and iconic that your standard "I-cast-the-big-spells-that-cause-the-damage" sorcerer. So, I took a look at the warlock class, and stumbled across the lesser invocation "The dead walk" which gives you the ability to use animate dead, at will, even without the material components. Oh-ho, I said! Now here is an ability of great value to Azarr Kul and Kharn. Something that can really ensure victory on the battlefield. An endless supply of foot soldiers limited only by the amount of dead bodies you have lying around. Even the surplus that Koth could not himself control, can be controlled by the clerics and warpriests. As per Cast, I agree with you, but with the great big "What about Chapter 3". This ability of great value is what Kul sees in the Ghostlord. If he had it from one his people, he wouldn't have to deal with him. So I suggest that this NOT be the ability Kul sees in Koth. Sorry, I'm not sure what the following mean: - AOE. - VoP - Spellwarp Sniper ? (Prestige obviously, but not one I've seen!! Where's it from?) However, If you die, Koth sees it as your duty to keep on fighting. As such, there are no undead in the keep when the party arrives, but anyone killed is up for grabs. His feats relate to his interest in the undead. Oh I like that, "your duty to keep on fighting!" Very hobgoblinish! LM I recognize, as Libris Mortis. Unfortunately, another one I don't have, sorry. However, if you're worried about range vs melee combat, use it sparingly once or twice, so the party has a chance to realize it's there, and after that "fair game, they've been warned!" Practiced Spellcaster-- This one make for a great mid battle plot but may also be the most dangerous. With this feat not only can Koth control many more HD of undead, but he would also have been taking a strong interest in the giant skeletons lying about. A skeletal Forest giant is a Huge 13 HD monstrosity. If I used this, I would have one skeleton being carefully cleaned and prepared in the courtyard. It would be obvious to the PC's that this is of particular importance. During the battle with Koth and Karkilan, when thing are going badly for them, I would have Koth scream for the minotaur to grab "the stone" from his study. This would be the onxy stone Koth has been preparing for the giants skeleton in order to make the animate spell permanent; as Koth refuses to "waste a month's worth of work". He feels that the giant will be his finest work and solidify his value in the eyes of Azar Kul. The rounds where Karkilan goes to retrieve the massive carved rock would be vital to the party's success. How do all feel about this addition to the fight? Would your opinion change if the skeleton only had his claws to rely on? I appreciate all your input. My goal is to create a difficult (but not overwhelming) fight that my players will remember for a long time to come. -Cheers Wow! I've got to say, you've certainly thought this thru, and hats off to you for it. I love the "Forest giant skeleton being prepped" bit. But again I hit up against Chapter 3 and am having trouble udnerstanding why this new Koth isn't there, and Ulwai here. Hmm. "Rivalry" perhaps? If you like what you've got, go for it , and run with it. The best parts of any module are the ones you take to heart and just embellish. That vividness will come thru for your players. And your goal is the same we all have at heart, something they will remember for a long time. Gerry
CrushDugan 03-24-08, 09:40 AM	Thanks for the responses fellas. I was also concerned that a Koth that focused on the undead sort of underscored the importance of the Ghostlord in chapter 3. For the sake of the storyline I will probably adapt Koth in a different manner. Ah well. Gerry, as for those abbreviations, AOE is an area of effect spell, which my party is severely lacking in. We've only run the marauder attack combat so far and they have trouble with large numbers of grunts. VoP is the Vow of Poverty feat from Book of Exalted Deeds which add many sacred bonuses to a character if you forgo all wealth and material possessions. My buddies' wife LOATHES choosing items and jumped at the chance to take the feat. And Spellwarp Sniper is from Complete Scoundrel, I *think*. Gerry, to you, Pukunui, Caligula and all the other DM's out there who have posted their experiences with RHoD, I just want to say thank you. As a fairly green DM, your run downs of the campaign have made me feel much more confident in providing a great time for my buddies. -Cheers
SupaTalka 03-24-08, 06:03 PM	Please for the love of God make Koth a warlock who can raise undead legions. It reeks of flavor, really it does. Koth as he is, is very easy to kill/disable/capture/destroy if the party has 1 good round. Your Koth throws actual threat right back into the mix. Why I say it adds flavor is that the party is going to totally wig out when he starts eldritch blasting corpses...that then proceed to rise and fight for him! (Ok, that's how I imagine him empowering the corpses) I can see you're worried about them being outclassed by a giant - so throw a giant into the party's hands. Let Warklegnaw fight with them. Then he sees the skeletal body - but it's missing a tusk or some such feature and he IMMEDIATELY realizes it's his brother/wife/child/etc. etc. that has been dug up and desecrated. So now they have a giant on their side, and you have a giant skeleton, possibly a minotaur zombie and other zombies. The encounter is too good to be true in my opinion. If the fighting gets outrageously stacked against the party, have Warklegnaw initiate some kind of "last breath bull-rush" and buy the party "just enough time" to get away. The story value will be over the top. I'd suggest if you want an epic BATTLE and not just encounter, you let the party go in at full strength with the element of surprise. Please do the warlock Koth and please let me know what happens. Who cares about Chapter Three? The Ghostlord feels necromantic magic in the region and investigates it - only to later find that his phylactery has been stolen and he has lost control of his undead minions (which as per the rules, the ghostlord has no way of actually controlling undead he creates anyways).
garoka 03-24-08, 06:54 PM	OK I don't know about this adventure but its probably impossible with those characters if it has ANYTHING to do with a wyrmlord because if you're fighting it you're dead and if you're helping it unless your fighting a god/deity it would do it irself.
CrushDugan 03-24-08, 08:20 PM	Glad you liked the idea SupaTalka, but the more I think about it, the less I like the idea of downplaying the Ghostlord in chapter 3. The druid in my campaign has kind of a holy-chosen-as-natures-avatar thing going on, and chapter 3 will really be her time in the spotlight. Plus everyone makes a good point in that if Kul already has Koth in his pocket, why bother the Ghostlord? My current idea Ive been kicking around today is to play up the relationship between Koth and Karkilan. Like they've been battling together for a long while and this Red Hand thing is just their newest gig. Going to give them a very double dragon kind of feel (complete with red and blue headbands). Probably will give Karkilan a level of Barbarian to get him some armor proficiency so he's not running around naked. He'll be the brawn of the two. He'll be blessed with a elite array of stats as well. Koth will (likely) be a Sorc 4/ Swordsage 3 High dex, tricky type. Looks very ominous with long black robes and his child of shadow stance. He would focus on Shadow hand/ desert wind abilities, and de-buffing spells. Uses a longspear with combat & evasive reflexes to keep up the pressure. Stays at range (probably up on the walls)at first, firing off rays of enfeeblement and uses his wand of magic missile while Karkilan does his thing. As soon as Mr Cow is starting to feel hurt, BAM! benign transposition from Koth who was kind enough to drop a potion of cure mod as a free action. And now they get a surprise, Koth is great in melee as well. The Mark of Death ability (desert wind 3 , I think), works as a smaller, melee, fire ball. For great flavor as an evil SoB, Koth can grab Touch of Idiocy as his 2nd level spell. Imagine him switching with Karkilan grabbing a squishy caster by the skull and frying them brains! I know I've given each of these guys an extra level, but since their tactics are to wait in Koth's room until they hear the fighting is over, I feel the few rounds my party will have to refresh themselves will prepare them for such a challenge. Ooooo, and just to ensure that the party uses those rounds wisely, I could have Koth have a raven familiar that starts circling above them, croaking out "useless, useless to fight, the master will kill you all." Whew. God I love this game.
Golem1972 03-25-08, 01:40 AM	I wouldn't want to overshadow chapter 3 either, but... As a Warlock, Koth would have plenty of power to make him worthy of advancement. You could just say (to yourself) that his "the dead walk" ability is either new (leading to a: "look what I can do!", "yeah, that's pretty neat. Maybe we should find someone who can make permanent undead."), or that he's just figured out how to make permanent undead (after all, it's not like Koth has a copy of the complete arcane). Either way, this could lead to them seeking an expert in the necromantic arts instead of just Koth the dabbler. If you do go with Warlock, you might want to look at some of the eldritch glaive builds.
Gerry 03-25-08, 06:30 AM	Thanks for the responses fellas. I was also concerned that a Koth that focused on the undead sort of underscored the importance of the Ghostlord in chapter 3. For the sake of the storyline I will probably adapt Koth in a different manner. Ah well. Gerry, as for those abbreviations, AOE is an area of effect spell, ... VoP is the Vow of Poverty feat from Book of Exalted Deeds .... And Spellwarp Sniper is from Complete Scoundrel, I *think*. Gerry, to you, Pukunui, Caligula and all the other DM's out there who have posted their experiences with RHoD, I just want to say thank you. As a fairly green DM, your run downs of the campaign have made me feel much more confident in providing a great time for my buddies. -Cheers You're "green"?!?! With ideas like these, you're FINE! You have an awesome background for Koth, well two of them now. So whichever you go with, run and make it yours. When you invest that much into it, the players benefit, as you really bring the characters to life. And that's always worth doing. And then, on the third hand is Supa's idea of having Warklegnaw beside them, fighting the giant skeleton, and its his family.... Images like that are strong, clear, and get TO YOUR PLAYERS, who will remember them a looong time! So from all these ideas, I am confident that you are going to "provide a great time for your buddies" with whatever version of Koth you choose. Welcome to DMing... :) Gerry