Conditions Clarifications (i.e. stunned) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Conditions Clarifications (i.e. stunned) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
anissa
04-24-06, 11:16 AM Hi all,

New to the WoC forums, certain the follow questions are faqs, saddened that the search facilities are apparently currently broken, apologize for what I'm sure is a common repeat.

I very much like the formalization of conditions as given at the back of the DMG, but have often encountered a need for more detailed game mechanics info than is provided. Can anyone refer me to an augmented condition summary and the game mechanical effects of said conditions?

Of particular interest currently is the 'stunned' condition. The Stunning Fist Feat on PHB35-101 describes its effects as "character can't act, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a -2 penalty to AC". DMG35-301 augments the above slightly with "A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexerity bonus to AC (if any)." The addition of "drops everything held" is rather significant, and I'm curious whether this is canon, or if the PHB description is used more often. If the DMG ruling is used, Stunning Fist can make an interesting replacement for Disarm.

But the real question wrt the 'stunned' condition is how a stunned creation reacts to attacks, etc. "Cannot act" may or may not mean "Cannot react". And it presumably doesn't mean "Cannot react to anything", as that is covered by "helpless" or "paralyzed", etc. So the question becomes, what CAN a stunned creature react to? AOO? If an attacker attempts to trip or grapple the stunned creature, is there still an opposed role, or does the attacker succeed automatically in such attempts? This seems far too excessive, and the discussion about reduced AC implies that melee attacks aren't automatic hits, so presumably the stunned creature is capable of *some* sort of reaction to external events. Clarification on this would be most appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Anissa
Seeker95
04-24-06, 12:51 PM 1. The DMG condition summary for *stunned* is accurate. use it in place of the monk ability. The PHB description of the condition does not override the DMG definition of the condition.

2. Any action that requires a decision to act by the player is impossible. Saving throws are not a decision. Opposed rolls are automatic. The stunned cahracter can make an opposed roll. (There are likely modifiers based on some of the conditions of being stunned.) The stunned character can roll a saving throw. AoOs do not *have* to be taken, so a stunned chracter cannot make an AoO (Proof: you need not attack an ally just because s/he walks past you in combat).

Hope that helps.
anissa
04-24-06, 11:19 PM Hi Seeker95,

Thanks for the response. Good to have external validation that the DMG description is agreeable. Since it works in favor of a favored character, I didn't know if I was being biased towards prefering the DMG over the PHB :-)

I also agree that being stunned, conceptually, precludes actions that require a decision. Disallowing AOOs totally make sense (and I've always assumed that). And I can kinda agree that saving throws are automatic. And yet there seems to be at least *some* decision making required to choose to dodge a fireball (i.e. make a Reflex save) unless one is using Evasion or Impr. Evasion. And there seems to be somewhat less (but still existing) decision making required to exert will power to resist mental influence, etc. (i.e. make a Will save). I cannot really make an argument for there being any decision making involved in Fortitude saves though - they seem to be fairly "unconcious" or "automatic" in nature.

And there seems to be even more "decision making" involved in something like responding to a trip or grapple attempt. If we agree that the attacked isn't allowed an AOO from a novice tripper/grappler, and presumably isn't allowed to try to counter-trip on a failed trip attempt, then it seems that the attacked should also at least suffer a penalty on opposed checks, no?

Of course, there is always the issue of game balance (and I agree that game balance is more important than excessive realism). And having no dex bonus to AC and an additional -2 AC certainly does make it more difficult for an individual to respond to trips, grapples, etc. Just curious if there has been any discussion on further penalities.

Appreciate the feedback,
Anissa

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
anissa 04-24-06, 11:16 AM	Hi all, New to the WoC forums, certain the follow questions are faqs, saddened that the search facilities are apparently currently broken, apologize for what I'm sure is a common repeat. I very much like the formalization of conditions as given at the back of the DMG, but have often encountered a need for more detailed game mechanics info than is provided. Can anyone refer me to an augmented condition summary and the game mechanical effects of said conditions? Of particular interest currently is the 'stunned' condition. The Stunning Fist Feat on PHB35-101 describes its effects as "character can't act, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a -2 penalty to AC". DMG35-301 augments the above slightly with "A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexerity bonus to AC (if any)." The addition of "drops everything held" is rather significant, and I'm curious whether this is canon, or if the PHB description is used more often. If the DMG ruling is used, Stunning Fist can make an interesting replacement for Disarm. But the real question wrt the 'stunned' condition is how a stunned creation reacts to attacks, etc. "Cannot act" may or may not mean "Cannot react". And it presumably doesn't mean "Cannot react to anything", as that is covered by "helpless" or "paralyzed", etc. So the question becomes, what CAN a stunned creature react to? AOO? If an attacker attempts to trip or grapple the stunned creature, is there still an opposed role, or does the attacker succeed automatically in such attempts? This seems far too excessive, and the discussion about reduced AC implies that melee attacks aren't automatic hits, so presumably the stunned creature is capable of some sort of reaction to external events. Clarification on this would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance, Anissa
Seeker95 04-24-06, 12:51 PM	1. The DMG condition summary for stunned is accurate. use it in place of the monk ability. The PHB description of the condition does not override the DMG definition of the condition. 2. Any action that requires a decision to act by the player is impossible. Saving throws are not a decision. Opposed rolls are automatic. The stunned cahracter can make an opposed roll. (There are likely modifiers based on some of the conditions of being stunned.) The stunned character can roll a saving throw. AoOs do not have to be taken, so a stunned chracter cannot make an AoO (Proof: you need not attack an ally just because s/he walks past you in combat). Hope that helps.
anissa 04-24-06, 11:19 PM	Hi Seeker95, Thanks for the response. Good to have external validation that the DMG description is agreeable. Since it works in favor of a favored character, I didn't know if I was being biased towards prefering the DMG over the PHB :-) I also agree that being stunned, conceptually, precludes actions that require a decision. Disallowing AOOs totally make sense (and I've always assumed that). And I can kinda agree that saving throws are automatic. And yet there seems to be at least some decision making required to choose to dodge a fireball (i.e. make a Reflex save) unless one is using Evasion or Impr. Evasion. And there seems to be somewhat less (but still existing) decision making required to exert will power to resist mental influence, etc. (i.e. make a Will save). I cannot really make an argument for there being any decision making involved in Fortitude saves though - they seem to be fairly "unconcious" or "automatic" in nature. And there seems to be even more "decision making" involved in something like responding to a trip or grapple attempt. If we agree that the attacked isn't allowed an AOO from a novice tripper/grappler, and presumably isn't allowed to try to counter-trip on a failed trip attempt, then it seems that the attacked should also at least suffer a penalty on opposed checks, no? Of course, there is always the issue of game balance (and I agree that game balance is more important than excessive realism). And having no dex bonus to AC and an additional -2 AC certainly does make it more difficult for an individual to respond to trips, grapples, etc. Just curious if there has been any discussion on further penalities. Appreciate the feedback, Anissa