Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MightyMightyThundarr 10-18-03, 01:19 PM	The problem: Vow of Poverty says that the person who has taken the vow cannot own any magic items, or even borrow them from a friend for any period of time (with the exception of receiving the benefit of a use-activated item, such as a friend's potion or wand of cure light wounds). In the Apostle of Peace description, it says they are allowed to own magic items that are purely defensive in nature, such as bracers of armor. Vow of Poverty is a required feat to take the Apostle of Peace PrC. Is this an oversight, or does being an Apostle of Peace let you gain the benefits of the Vow of Poverty feat without actually being poor?
Mike the DM 10-18-03, 03:53 PM	And so begins the errata page... :rolleyes:
Kaardomos 10-18-03, 04:09 PM	I don't have the BoED, so forgive me if I'm missing something, but I believe that that's supposed to be an exception to the poverty rule.
MightyMightyThundarr 10-18-03, 04:22 PM	Heh, thats kind of what I thought, but it doesn't make much sense. "You made a vow, but you also made another vow, so I'll look the other way about the first one" And yes, bring on the errata! :D
Thrudjelmer 10-18-03, 04:42 PM	Well, until an official errata comes out, you could look at it this way: 1. the Vow of Poverty feat says the character cannot own anything. 2. abide by it (and other prerequisites) to gain access to the Apostle of Peace prestige class. 3. the Apostle of Peace PrC says that the character can own purely defensive magic items. 4. after gaining a level in Apostle of Peace, the character can now own certain specific items. This could be considered a perk of the prestige class, allowing the character to own a few things in spite of the vow without losing the benefits of the feat...
Josh_Kablack 10-18-03, 05:47 PM	This is not a mechanics problem. Or rather it's not the mechanics problem you thought it was. It is more of a flavor text/common sense problem. PrC requirements are distinctly not like feat prerequsites, in that you do not normally lose PrC abilities if for some reason you cease to meet those requirements. For example, you need Power Attack to become a Blackguard, but you need a Str of 13+ to be able to use Power Attack. Yet if a Blackguard is hit by a Str-draining posion and has his Str reduced below 13, he loses the use of Power Attack, but does not any of his Blackguard class features. For another example, a Mystic Theurge is required to be able to cast both 2nd level arcane spells and 2nd level divine spells. Yet if a Mystic Theurge uses all of his divine spells (or has his Wisdom reduced), it is clear that he no longer meets the entry requirements for the PrC - yet he does not lose access to the other spells granted by the PrC. Disclaimer Now I could be wrong about the rest of this, because I haven't yet seen the book and am working solely from the online preview: Thus when you cease meeting the requirements for Vow of Poverty, you can still belong to a PrC which requires it and still use all abilities of that PrC, so long as that PrC does not have stipulations about losing abilities in certain cases. So it's just fine to ignore your vow of poverty and wear magic rings while keeping the apostle of peace abilities. No mechanical problem there. The mechanical problem is that it is also just fine to totally disregard Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence, and Vow of Peace, as well - without losing any Apostle of Peace abilities. So as long as you were at one point noviolent, peace-loving and impovrished, it is still totally okay to be a violent, war-mongering, avaricious bastard of an Apostle of Peace. And that's probably a real problem.
Mike the DM 10-18-03, 06:25 PM	Originally posted by Josh_Kablack So as long as you were at one point noviolent, peace-loving and impovrished, it is still totally okay to be a violent, war-mongering, avaricious bastard of an Apostle of Peace. :rofl: And I was so looking forward to BoED settling some of the sticky alignment questions! :D
Shogun Warrior 10-19-03, 01:54 PM	As Josh said, he doesn't have a copy of the book:smirk: All the PrCs presented are "exalted" PrCs, meaning that they fall under a blanket restriction similar to a Paladin: if they knowingly commit an evil act, they lose all powers and special abilities from the PrC and can never gain new levels in it (following examples elsewhere in the book, however, a character who is forced to do evil deeds through a spell or some such can regain thier PrC abilities & class progression through atonement). So far so good, except that the BoED also puts very strict limits on when and how Good characters can engage in violence. The BoED also states expressly states that commiting violent acts without enough justification is an evil act("enough" being more than most situations would provide). In other words, even if the PrC allows for some violent actions, those actions are still restricted by the overall restrictions on what Good characters can do.
Mancer 10-22-03, 01:26 AM	Uh..... what is everyone smoking? if the clause in AoP that "overrides" vow of poverty isn't a misprint, then it's just wrong, IMHO. I see the apostle as the antithesis of min/maxing, in that you have to takes vows to the effect of: "i promise not to own anything or hurt anybody." although there are many people on these boards who have far more posts than I, I consider myself a fairly proficient min/maxer. that having been said, I think that an Apostle of Peace character would likely continue to abide by his previous vows. in other words, i would assume that this little contradiction is a misprint. remember, many people collaborated on this book, and continuity problems do sometimes arise.
Talmar 10-22-03, 08:26 AM	Well, as a DM I would rule the following. Apostle of Poverty, you own nothing but non masterwork weapons, and only 1, 2 at the most. Apostle of Peace, sure you can own defensive magic items but that would be breaking your Vow of Poverty and so you lose all those abilities. Am I harsh, maybe, I'd still allow the Vow of Peace to stand as you were Impoverished when you became a peace activist but you are no longer Impoverished. I think this keeps the role playing aspect of in tact for the Vow's but allows one to assume any of the Apostle creeds one wants.
Chris24601 10-22-03, 09:53 AM	I more or less agree with Talmar. To become an Apostle of Peace you have to take the Vow of Poverty. However, you can later give up the vow of poverty if you choose to and not lose your abilities as an Apostle of Peace. In essence, the vow of poverty is a tangent needed to become an apostle, but it is not the core of what makes an apostle of peace (the non-violence part is).
Norad 10-22-03, 12:28 PM	Just because you can't be violent doesn't mean you can't be effective... Friend of mine and I came up with a cleric last night that has Vow of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence, and Vow of Peace. He can't cast damaging spells on you, he can't stat drain you, but he can cast Bestow Curse on you and give you a 50% chance of doing nothing each round, he can cast Hold Person on you and watch you stand around doing nothing, and he gets +4 to the DC of those spells when he uses them. This doesn't even get into the 30ac he is sporting without a single piece of armor, or the fact that weapons striking him may simply just break...
Whisper the Gray Monk 10-28-03, 04:12 PM	Originally posted by Chris24601 To become an Apostle of Peace you have to take the Vow of Poverty. However, you can later give up the vow of poverty (and all of the benefits that come with it) if you choose to and not lose your abilities as an Apostle of Peace. In essence, the vow of poverty is a tangent needed to become an apostle, but it is not the core of what makes an apostle of peace (the non-violence part is). An excellent interpretation of the rules. I am starting with a new group and have a cleric with the Vow of Poverty. That vow is part of my clerics history, to ignore the negative effects and still keep the benefits would not be good role-playing in my opinion, it would be min/maxing.
Whisper the Gray Monk 04-16-04, 08:50 AM	After searching the boards, it seems that PaoLung has gotten an official answer. The Vow of Poverty is a pre-req for the Apostle of Peace. The AOP's defensive magic items were an afterthought and are INCORRECT. As is the artwork rendition. The AOP gets NO magical items (defensive or otherwise) but retains all of his VOP and AOP benefits. Sorry to burst your 70AC bubble guys... Whisper
Elendur 04-16-04, 11:47 AM	I would assume that if you lost the pre-req feat of a PrC, you would be unable to continue to advance in that PrC. So if you broke your vow of poverty, you couldn't gain anymore levels in apostle of peace. However, since Vow Poverty is supposed to be roughly equivilent to having standard equipment, I don't see why you couldn't remove the pre-req of Vow of Poverty. You just can't have both the Vow of Poverty benefits and full access to equipment(well duh, but people continue to ask about it).
virtualone 04-16-04, 05:52 PM	mechanically, you cannot lose the FEAT Vow of Poverty, or Vow of Peace. You would just lose the benefits you normally gain from those feats. Thus, you could still become apostle of peace even if all vows were broken, because the prerequisite is that you have the feats, it is nowhere mentioned that you really have to gain all benefits from the feats.
KBAZZ 04-16-04, 08:03 PM	If ya want to house rules that he loses the VoP you can but the reality is this on page 52 "as part of thier sacred vows, AoP forswear use of armer, though they may wear magic items that protect them" so those vows work with magic now dont like it house rules it or ban it.
Eco-Mono 04-16-04, 08:10 PM	My (admittedly houseruled) opinion on this topic: Just cut loose the Vow of Poverty requirement because it doesn't fit. Considering this inconsistancy (and the notably rich Apostle of Peace art) I consider it a last-minute addition anyway, one that wasn't terribly well thought-out. EDIT: Well apparently I got the afterthought reversed. I'll still houserule it like this, but meh.
Skeptical Clown 04-16-04, 10:41 PM	My interpretation in my game: If yer planning on taking a Vow of Poverty with the INTENT of breaking it, you're not taking a Vow of Poverty.
Lysen_Gaiden 04-17-04, 03:37 PM	Originally posted by Whisper the Gray Monk After searching the boards, it seems that PaoLung has gotten an official answer. The Vow of Poverty is a pre-req for the Apostle of Peace. The AOP's defensive magic items were an afterthought and are INCORRECT. As is the artwork rendition. The AOP gets NO magical items (defensive or otherwise) but retains all of his VOP and AOP benefits. Sorry to burst your 70AC bubble guys... Whisper Could you direct us to the proper place for the official answer that you found? Thanks.