Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moondarq 07-06-07, 09:07 PM	The spell Compendium has a bunch of new Conjuration spells that basically mimic the effect of the Evocation school. The important difference for most of these spells is that because they are "Conjured" energy, as opposed to "Evoked" energy, they don't allow saving throws. This troubles me. Conceptually the idea of calling energy forth from somewhere else can be described as conjuration just as easily as evocation, but it seems to weaken the difference between the two schools to do so. More importantly, because most of them are not subject to spell resistance, they are in many ways superior. For example, golems are immune to any spell that is subject to spell resistance. So instead of coming up with a different tactic to fight these monsters, arcane casters can simply blast them as they would any other big threat, by using conjuration-based nukes as opposed to evocation. The other problem is that this seems to be a one-way thing. The spell compendium hasn't done anything to diversify evocations. Why not just do away with the school entirely and parse out all the spells to conjuration? Or for that matter, get rid of conjuration, evocation and necromancy entirely and put all the spells in the alteration school. After all, animating a corpse is certainly altering it, isn't it?
Tequila_Sunrise 07-06-07, 10:02 PM	There have been many heated arguments over the Orb spells because of the very issues that you bring up. In the end, it comes down to DM opinion. Some DMs are fine with these spells, some aren't. It's fairly common for DMs to either not allow these spells or to houserule that they are in fact evocations and therefore allow SR.
Ringmereth 07-07-07, 01:45 AM	If you take a look at the CO board's advice on arcane casters, and specifically specialist wizards, one of the first suggestions you'll find is to ban Evocation. This is partially because wizards have better things to spend their time and spell slots on than doing direct damage, but also because between conjuration (orb spells, among other direct-damage effects) and illusion (shadow evocation spells make up for the loss of the few important evocations out there), almost anything evocation can do can be replicated. Conjuration, on the other hand, has both orbs and such winners as the best wall of... spells,teleport and similar transportation effects, various cloud/fog spells, and gate... and that's just Core.
Optimized_Commoner 07-07-07, 10:03 AM	If I recall correctly, the jewel in evocation's crown is the various Force spells. The ability to create absolutely invincible shields of pure energy is something I don't believe conjuration can duplicate.
Manir 07-07-07, 10:20 AM	If I recall correctly, the jewel in evocation's crown is the various Force spells. The ability to create absolutely invincible shields of pure energy is something I don't believe conjuration can duplicate. Actually, Mage Armor, a spell that creates armor of force, is in conjuration. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Tempest Stormwind 07-07-07, 10:20 AM	If I recall correctly, the jewel in evocation's crown is the various Force spells. The ability to create absolutely invincible shields of pure energy is something I don't believe conjuration can duplicate. Illusion can, though. The *only* things I dislike about having banned evocation in my wizard are the loss of Contingency, Shatter, and Forcecage. I can get all of those through Shadow Evocations (I'm playing a shadowcraft mage). By the way, to the OP: The no-save bit is NOT because they're conjuration. That's because they're *rays*. The chance you have to screw up on a ray spell is your attack roll. (In general, only disproportionately strong rays like Disintegrate allow saves.) They bypass SR because they're Conjuration (Creation).
jaelis 07-07-07, 10:27 AM	If I recall correctly, the jewel in evocation's crown is the various Force spells. The ability to create absolutely invincible shields of pure energy is something I don't believe conjuration can duplicate. Surely the crown jewel of evocation is contingency. I think that can be duplicated with greater shadow evocation, though I'm not really clear how it works.
Optimized_Commoner 07-07-07, 11:24 AM	Actually, Mage Armor, a spell that creates armor of force, is in conjuration. Sorry to burst your bubble. <shrug> I don't care what the fluff says, it's a spell that creates weightless ghost-touch armour with a +4 armour bonus. It's not a force spell in the same sense as wall of force, force chest, force cage, etc. However I appreciate that this isn't necessarily how others see it.
Optimized_Commoner 07-07-07, 11:26 AM	contingency. That's one of those spells (like wish) which is supposed to be really good, but DMs seem incapable of realising this and so it loses all value.
NobodyRemembersThis 07-07-07, 11:40 AM	IMO, Conjuration should not create any energy other than Acid - esecially since that is more of a "physical" energy. IMC, any and all Energy descriptor spells are that create energy are Evocation. I dislike immensely that a single line of text in the description of the school of conjuration effectively encompasses the entire school of Evocation. So, IMC I strike that line from the books.
jaelis 07-07-07, 12:32 PM	That's one of those spells (like wish) which is supposed to be really good, but DMs seem incapable of realising this and so it loses all value. What do you mean? I wouldn't have said there was much DM interpretation involved in contingency.