Connection to magic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Connection to magic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
claypigeons
09-14-06, 06:04 AM Do magic users (casters, not just folks with magic items) feel a connection to their magic? It is pretty simple to see such a connection for a cleric or favored soul. But what about a wizard or sorcerer?

I ask this because of a conversation I had the other night with a friend of mine. Neither of us could come to a conclusion to this question:

"When a caster enters an anti-magic field, do they know they cant use magic, or do they actually need to try before the knowledge is presented?"
Edge_of_Oblivion
09-14-06, 07:22 AM For those with an innate connection to magic - sorcerers, bards, divine casters - I would say yes, immediately. The sorcerer or bard no longer feels the arcane - the Weave, if you're doing this in Faerun, which it sounds like you are - flowing through his body, and the cleric, druid, ranger, or paladin would feel slightly cut off from his god.

I would be willing to say a wizard would as well, but it would probably be something a little more vague for him... something like a minor headache, or a very stifled feeling like a badly stuffed nose or swollen throat.
itraylor
09-14-06, 09:17 AM I would agree with the previous poster to an extent but I always envisioned wizards ‘feeling’ the power of magic coursing through their veins. I guess you could liken it to drinking an espresso and feeling the caffeine, it’s easier to identify with that analogy if you don’t drink a pot of coffee a day like me and are therefore immune to the effects of caffeine ha-ha! When entering an anti-magic field they would feel that stored up energy leave them and though they would still be able to go through the correct arcane gestures they would ‘feel’ that the magic was not taking effect…they would feel like a simple street illusionist not a powerful wizard. I could go for the headache thing as well but I wouldn’t go so far as to say “You can’t remember that spell” because that seems cheesy. They can remember it; it’s just that when they start casting the spell the magic is not there…there isn’t any build up of energy…just a dumb looking dude in robes waving his hands around, slinging bat dung and speaking gibberish!
The Ubbergeek
09-14-06, 12:42 PM I think that in FR, it had been said that spellcasters, by example, know when they entered a zone of anormal magic (dead, chaos and the like), they feel it. Kind of a la Force.
Bruunwald
09-14-06, 12:58 PM I think the original concept of the wizard was/is such that he does not feel any connection to magic unless he actually has a spell active. He was originally portrayed as a student, and his art a sort of science. Study, skill and memorization were his domains. That changed with certain campaign settings and later abilities.

But on the most basic level, yes, I think a wizard with mage armor going, who walked into an antimagic field would immediately feel his connection to an ongoing, personal spell lost.

But I also think that the intended use or purpose of things like antimagic fields is to challenge a spellcaster, and that this challenge can include the supression or even the loss of spells cast under the field, before the spellcaster knew the field existed.

This is another of those too-much-knowledge conundrums, really. Allowing a spellcaster such an intimate connection to some mystical weave is great for roleplay and story flavor, but it kills challenge by robbing the DM of a valuable resource. Using this, any spellcaster wandering near an antimagic field could completely nullify any challenge from that field by avoiding it courtesy of his spider-sense.

That seems a little lame to me. If you're going to allow such an ability, you ought to write it into the class description, or make it cost a feat.

And anyway, the challenge of such an obstacle is already lessened enough by the other ubiquitous aspects of the game. Everybody has something magical. All you have to do is look down at Sting or whatever sword you're carrying, and see if it isn't glowing anymore. Or ask your buddy the paladin if all his divine auras are still operating. Or make a Spellcraft check.

Basically, what I am saying is that the weave sounds good on paper for roleplay, but it kills yet another DM resource.
claypigeons
09-14-06, 02:02 PM Basically, what I am saying is that the weave sounds good on paper for roleplay, but it kills yet another DM resource.

If I were to add something like this into a homebrew setting, it wouldnt be akin to "spidey-sense". You wouldnt know beforehand, only after you have already entered the field. There are ways for people to be caught in anti-magic fields other than just blind stumbling into them.
Bruunwald
09-15-06, 12:50 PM If I were to add something like this into a homebrew setting, it wouldnt be akin to "spidey-sense". You wouldnt know beforehand, only after you have already entered the field. There are ways for people to be caught in anti-magic fields other than just blind stumbling into them.

Again, all you have to do to "know" is look at or try to activate some magical item you have on you. No special connection necessary.

That there are many ways to deliver a character into, or an antimagic field onto a character, goes without saying. But not knowing beforehand hardly matters when it ultimately costs you nothing to figure it out when you're finally there.

It's still a free ability that removes a potential challenge. It's just one more thing to have to take into consideration before you can adequately challenge your players. Why nerf yourself like that?

Put it to you this way: If I have five ways I can challenge a character, I'm probably going to spend my time figuring out which one is right for the occasion. The player has already done what he can to nullify #1 through #3. I'm not now going to give him a special ability for free that nullifies #4 as well.

Admittedly, this is a very small thing. But still... Going back to your original question:

"When a caster enters an anti-magic field, do they know they cant use magic, or do they actually need to try before the knowledge is presented?"

That's one of the classic, age-old traps of antimagic fields. Not knowing it's there until you've potentially wasted a spell under it. That's kind of the point. Many published adventures have featured them as surprises in that regard.
Thiez
09-16-06, 09:53 AM Would this item work?

AMF Detector
This item is a small hollow crystal ball with a tiny metal ball floating inside of it. When you enter an AMF, the magic fails and the ball willl (if there is gravity) drop and make a noise, warning the carrier of the Detector. When the presence of magic is restored, the ball starts floating again. It may be hard to distinguish between an AMF and a targeted Dispel Magic.
Faint Universal; CL 1st; Craft Wonderous Item, Prestidigitation; Price 800 gp; Weight 1/2 lb
Aaron L
09-17-06, 01:03 PM Basically, what I am saying is that the weave sounds good on paper for roleplay, but it kills yet another DM resource.

It's a good thing, then, that the Weave only exists in the Forgotten realms, and isn't a general D&D concept, isn't it?

But then again, using an undetectable and undefeatable plot device to rob a character of ALL of their class abilities isn't really a cool thing to do to a person, either.

Doesn't it make sense that a Fighter be able to tell if his sword has broken and isn't working anymore? I would think it only fair that a Wizard be able to tell when he steps into an area where all of his powers and abilities are suddenly gone from him. In the case of a Sorcerer or an innately magical creature, such as an elf or a being with spell like abilities, they should have a sick feeling in an area of dead magic or an anti-magic field. Like taking a walk in the mountains and getting a headache from the thin air, an elf should get a queasy feeling when the magic theat suffuses his being is suddenly stripped out of the atmosphere around him.

With a Wizard, I think it should be an odd feeling in the air, like when you notice that all the birds have suddenly stopped singing, or how you can hear the high pitched whine of electricity when the TV is on in the next room but the volume is turned down too low to hear.

When suddenly you hear that whine stop, you know the powers gone off. And so should a Wizard.

Really, I dont think it will ruin your game all that much, unless your primary tactic for NPCs fighting PC spellcasters is to have hidden and undetectable anti-magic fields scattered throughout every area in which they fight.

As for the question of teh OP, I would say most definately yes. They shoul know something is up. Let a Sorcerer know he feels slightly sick, a Wizard know that something is wrong with the air, and make Spellcraft rolls for them to figure it out. But it shouldnt be too hard.

I might even say that the grass seems a little bit greyer, the sky a little less blue, as if the color has been leeched out of the world in that area.

After all, the magic is gone.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
claypigeons 09-14-06, 06:04 AM	Do magic users (casters, not just folks with magic items) feel a connection to their magic? It is pretty simple to see such a connection for a cleric or favored soul. But what about a wizard or sorcerer? I ask this because of a conversation I had the other night with a friend of mine. Neither of us could come to a conclusion to this question: "When a caster enters an anti-magic field, do they know they cant use magic, or do they actually need to try before the knowledge is presented?"
Edge_of_Oblivion 09-14-06, 07:22 AM	For those with an innate connection to magic - sorcerers, bards, divine casters - I would say yes, immediately. The sorcerer or bard no longer feels the arcane - the Weave, if you're doing this in Faerun, which it sounds like you are - flowing through his body, and the cleric, druid, ranger, or paladin would feel slightly cut off from his god. I would be willing to say a wizard would as well, but it would probably be something a little more vague for him... something like a minor headache, or a very stifled feeling like a badly stuffed nose or swollen throat.
itraylor 09-14-06, 09:17 AM	I would agree with the previous poster to an extent but I always envisioned wizards ‘feeling’ the power of magic coursing through their veins. I guess you could liken it to drinking an espresso and feeling the caffeine, it’s easier to identify with that analogy if you don’t drink a pot of coffee a day like me and are therefore immune to the effects of caffeine ha-ha! When entering an anti-magic field they would feel that stored up energy leave them and though they would still be able to go through the correct arcane gestures they would ‘feel’ that the magic was not taking effect…they would feel like a simple street illusionist not a powerful wizard. I could go for the headache thing as well but I wouldn’t go so far as to say “You can’t remember that spell” because that seems cheesy. They can remember it; it’s just that when they start casting the spell the magic is not there…there isn’t any build up of energy…just a dumb looking dude in robes waving his hands around, slinging bat dung and speaking gibberish!
The Ubbergeek 09-14-06, 12:42 PM	I think that in FR, it had been said that spellcasters, by example, know when they entered a zone of anormal magic (dead, chaos and the like), they feel it. Kind of a la Force.
Bruunwald 09-14-06, 12:58 PM	I think the original concept of the wizard was/is such that he does not feel any connection to magic unless he actually has a spell active. He was originally portrayed as a student, and his art a sort of science. Study, skill and memorization were his domains. That changed with certain campaign settings and later abilities. But on the most basic level, yes, I think a wizard with mage armor going, who walked into an antimagic field would immediately feel his connection to an ongoing, personal spell lost. But I also think that the intended use or purpose of things like antimagic fields is to challenge a spellcaster, and that this challenge can include the supression or even the loss of spells cast under the field, before the spellcaster knew the field existed. This is another of those too-much-knowledge conundrums, really. Allowing a spellcaster such an intimate connection to some mystical weave is great for roleplay and story flavor, but it kills challenge by robbing the DM of a valuable resource. Using this, any spellcaster wandering near an antimagic field could completely nullify any challenge from that field by avoiding it courtesy of his spider-sense. That seems a little lame to me. If you're going to allow such an ability, you ought to write it into the class description, or make it cost a feat. And anyway, the challenge of such an obstacle is already lessened enough by the other ubiquitous aspects of the game. Everybody has something magical. All you have to do is look down at Sting or whatever sword you're carrying, and see if it isn't glowing anymore. Or ask your buddy the paladin if all his divine auras are still operating. Or make a Spellcraft check. Basically, what I am saying is that the weave sounds good on paper for roleplay, but it kills yet another DM resource.
claypigeons 09-14-06, 02:02 PM	Basically, what I am saying is that the weave sounds good on paper for roleplay, but it kills yet another DM resource. If I were to add something like this into a homebrew setting, it wouldnt be akin to "spidey-sense". You wouldnt know beforehand, only after you have already entered the field. There are ways for people to be caught in anti-magic fields other than just blind stumbling into them.
Bruunwald 09-15-06, 12:50 PM	If I were to add something like this into a homebrew setting, it wouldnt be akin to "spidey-sense". You wouldnt know beforehand, only after you have already entered the field. There are ways for people to be caught in anti-magic fields other than just blind stumbling into them. Again, all you have to do to "know" is look at or try to activate some magical item you have on you. No special connection necessary. That there are many ways to deliver a character into, or an antimagic field onto a character, goes without saying. But not knowing beforehand hardly matters when it ultimately costs you nothing to figure it out when you're finally there. It's still a free ability that removes a potential challenge. It's just one more thing to have to take into consideration before you can adequately challenge your players. Why nerf yourself like that? Put it to you this way: If I have five ways I can challenge a character, I'm probably going to spend my time figuring out which one is right for the occasion. The player has already done what he can to nullify #1 through #3. I'm not now going to give him a special ability for free that nullifies #4 as well. Admittedly, this is a very small thing. But still... Going back to your original question: "When a caster enters an anti-magic field, do they know they cant use magic, or do they actually need to try before the knowledge is presented?" That's one of the classic, age-old traps of antimagic fields. Not knowing it's there until you've potentially wasted a spell under it. That's kind of the point. Many published adventures have featured them as surprises in that regard.
Thiez 09-16-06, 09:53 AM	Would this item work? AMF Detector This item is a small hollow crystal ball with a tiny metal ball floating inside of it. When you enter an AMF, the magic fails and the ball willl (if there is gravity) drop and make a noise, warning the carrier of the Detector. When the presence of magic is restored, the ball starts floating again. It may be hard to distinguish between an AMF and a targeted Dispel Magic. Faint Universal; CL 1st; Craft Wonderous Item, Prestidigitation; Price 800 gp; Weight 1/2 lb
Aaron L 09-17-06, 01:03 PM	Basically, what I am saying is that the weave sounds good on paper for roleplay, but it kills yet another DM resource. It's a good thing, then, that the Weave only exists in the Forgotten realms, and isn't a general D&D concept, isn't it? But then again, using an undetectable and undefeatable plot device to rob a character of ALL of their class abilities isn't really a cool thing to do to a person, either. Doesn't it make sense that a Fighter be able to tell if his sword has broken and isn't working anymore? I would think it only fair that a Wizard be able to tell when he steps into an area where all of his powers and abilities are suddenly gone from him. In the case of a Sorcerer or an innately magical creature, such as an elf or a being with spell like abilities, they should have a sick feeling in an area of dead magic or an anti-magic field. Like taking a walk in the mountains and getting a headache from the thin air, an elf should get a queasy feeling when the magic theat suffuses his being is suddenly stripped out of the atmosphere around him. With a Wizard, I think it should be an odd feeling in the air, like when you notice that all the birds have suddenly stopped singing, or how you can hear the high pitched whine of electricity when the TV is on in the next room but the volume is turned down too low to hear. When suddenly you hear that whine stop, you know the powers gone off. And so should a Wizard. Really, I dont think it will ruin your game all that much, unless your primary tactic for NPCs fighting PC spellcasters is to have hidden and undetectable anti-magic fields scattered throughout every area in which they fight. As for the question of teh OP, I would say most definately yes. They shoul know something is up. Let a Sorcerer know he feels slightly sick, a Wizard know that something is wrong with the air, and make Spellcraft rolls for them to figure it out. But it shouldnt be too hard. I might even say that the grass seems a little bit greyer, the sky a little less blue, as if the color has been leeched out of the world in that area. After all, the magic is gone.