Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 02-03-07, 12:23 PM	So I want to play a gnome hulking hurler! What happens when my polymorph/wild shape/expansion wears off or is dispelled? What happens when a fochulcan lyrist loses their ring of evasion? What happens when you lose prerequisites for prestige classes?
Always-Late 02-03-07, 03:16 PM	Dragon Disciple says nothing ahppens.
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-03-07, 03:42 PM	The first case I wouldn't allow. A prerequisite can be achieved by a permanent non-natural ability, but not something temporary. Therefore, the second case would be okay. That aside, if a character were to lose prerequisites for a prestige class, they'd no longer be able to advance in that class. Then comes the decision on how and if they'd gain experience. That's up in the air, but it's really between not gaining XP altogether, and gaining XP but if they level being forced to take a level in a class other than the PrC they no longer meet the prerequisites for.
Otto the Bugbear 02-03-07, 05:39 PM	This is really a problem with the strange way they've tried to implement PrCs into the game. In some cases, when you lose the requirements, you should lose most/all of the class abilities. In other cases, you should lose a few. In yet other cases, you shouldn't really lose those class abilities at all. The way they should have implemented PrCs is with a variety of stipulations that are entirely dependent for that particular PrC. The aforementioned dragon disciple (despite having the clause "can not already be a dragon) should have just included a line in dragon apotheosis like, "Once this occurs, you no longer have to meet the Race: portion of the requirements for this prestige class." Probably too complex to write PrCs with these problems in mind, right WotC? Most PrC abilities aren't really necessarily tied to having those requirements (not prerequisites). It should be boiled down to an individual ability being lost if the requirements are lost. For instance, an assassin becomes good through some arbitrary reason, like a Helm of Opposite Alignment, and he suddenly forgets all his sneak attack progression and spellcasting. Because, as the PHB warns us, casting spells and being evil go hand-in-hand. :rolleyes: As does sneak attack :rolleyes: Another example is a Runescarred Berserker might be cause for argument that you cannot advance further in the class if you are kicked out of the Berserker Lodge, but you retain your previous abilities. You don't lose the abilities, but the lodge doesn't reveal any more of its secrets. One more example? The Heartwarden (Faiths and Pantheons, FR) is specifically tied to a particular deity (Sune). If that character somehow loses the support of Sune, then all class abilities are lost and further advancement is lost. But no. We have to have a vague, universal ruling that's found in supplements and directly contradicts a few PrCs that people trot out every time this subject is brought up. DMs should just rule this crap on the fly.
bonethug0108 02-03-07, 05:46 PM	DMs should just rule this crap on the fly. Exactly what I do.:D
Vaelan 02-03-07, 05:52 PM	I've seen this thread before. It ends badly, as certain people decide to label anyone who disagrees with them as powergamers, or some other pejorative term, and feel that this label justifies responding to sound reason with thinly-veiled personal attacks. There is actually a rather obvious reason that this happens. It is related to the nature of the question and the nature of the people who would respond to such questions in any way other than... DMs should just rule this crap on the fly. I second this, since it is the only reasonable course of action.
bonethug0108 02-03-07, 05:57 PM	Since when have three like-minded people ever responded to a topic in a row.:P
Witch 02-03-07, 06:04 PM	I must say, though I don't like the "on the fly" wording, I must agree with the spirit of Otto & Vaelan: it should be judged case by case.
bonethug0108 02-03-07, 06:10 PM	I must say, though I don't like the "on the fly" wording, I must agree with the spirit of Otto & Vaelan: it should be judged case by case. Yeah, that's where I'm coming from too. I didn't mean making up everything on the spot(though I've done it before.) I meant using the rules as a guideline, and deciding, on the fly(in game), how a situation should be handled.
EvilVegan 02-03-07, 06:17 PM	I'm a case-by-case guy. Heck I typically ignore PrC requirements and prefer quest based entry into organizations that teach special skills, I was just wanting official/majority consensus for reference to official games or competitions/arguments on the boards.
bonethug0108 02-03-07, 06:20 PM	I'm a case-by-case guy. Heck I typically ignore PrC requirements and prefer quest based entry into organizations that teach special skills, I was just wanting official/majority consensus for reference to official games or competitions/arguments on the boards. Can't help there. I'm not even sure wizards could give you a straight answer. They have created a murky pool of venemous ooze that they shall have to waddle in for a thousand and one years unto the next ion, where once upon the light shall shine and cleanse all who haven't bathed in a week.
MerricB 02-03-07, 06:21 PM	The official rule is in Complete Warrior, page 16. Here it is: Meeting Class Requirements: It is possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance further in a prestige class. If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any imporvement to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided. Cheers!
bonethug0108 02-03-07, 06:27 PM	The official rule is in Complete Warrior, page 16. Here it is: Meeting Class Requirements: It is possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance further in a prestige class. If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any imporvement to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided. Cheers! Show off:P
Always-Late 02-03-07, 10:40 PM	Kobold Sorceror 10 Dragon Disciple 9 We're almost there! *defeats encounter* *LEVEL UP!* I'm a Dragon! *world shift* Wait, I don't meet the prerequisites for Dragon Disciple anymore! Noooo! *wings vanish, spell slots disappear, ability bonuses vanish, claws fade...* I'M NOT A DRAGON ANYMORE! It's ALL GONE! Wait a minute... *Ding!* It's all coming back to me now! I meet the prereqs! *wings grow, claws form, surge of strength, breathes a jet of flame* I'm a dragon again! *cries happy tears* Wait a minute... That means... *wash , rinse, repeat*
Otto the Bugbear 02-04-07, 07:52 AM	Dragon Disciple says nothing ahppens. Kobold Sorceror 10 Dragon Disciple 9 We're almost there! *defeats encounter* *LEVEL UP!* I'm a Dragon! *world shift* Wait, I don't meet the prerequisites for Dragon Disciple anymore! Noooo! *wings vanish, spell slots disappear, ability bonuses vanish, claws fade...* I'M NOT A DRAGON ANYMORE! It's ALL GONE! Wait a minute... *Ding!* It's all coming back to me now! I meet the prereqs! *wings grow, claws form, surge of strength, breathes a jet of flame* I'm a dragon again! *cries happy tears* Wait a minute... That means... *wash , rinse, repeat* pst. you already posted the DD problem in this thread once.
EvilVegan 02-04-07, 11:28 AM	But now it is an anecdote! I don't like the concept that you no longer have learned skills when prerequisites are no longer met. I can understand/accept divine powers or powers based off of alignment (such as rage) being lost to a degree, but even so it is nonsense. Yay for rules! But what happens when you lose prerequisites and then regain them? It doesn't mention regaining them.
MerricB 02-04-07, 10:50 PM	But what happens when you lose prerequisites and then regain them? It doesn't mention regaining them. It doesn't; however, you regain lost abilities when you regain the prereqs, and you may advance in the class again. Note that is separate to becoming an "ex-" something, such as "ex-paladin", which is specifically called out in the class. You don't have 'learned skills', because you no longer have the basic underlying skills to use those abilities. Consider a simple example: * To "Run", you need to be able to "Walk". * You lose the ability to "Walk", thus you can no longer "Run" * You regain the ability to "Walk"; you can now "Run". The Dragon Disciple example is really amusing. :) Cheers!
bonethug0108 02-04-07, 11:07 PM	It doesn't; however, you regain lost abilities when you regain the prereqs, and you may advance in the class again. Note that is separate to becoming an "ex-" something, such as "ex-paladin", which is specifically called out in the class. You don't have 'learned skills', because you no longer have the basic underlying skills to use those abilities. Consider a simple example: * To "Run", you need to be able to "Walk". * You lose the ability to "Walk", thus you can no longer "Run" * You regain the ability to "Walk"; you can now "Run". The Dragon Disciple example is really amusing. :) Cheers! But you are oversimplifying. There are abilities that wouldn't require the requirements for the class. The class has requirements, not the abilities it gives. Though alot of abilities would need those requirements, so yes, you should lose those. Wizards totally funked this one up.
EvilVegan 02-05-07, 08:57 AM	Such as an arcane trickster who (somehow) loses all his ranks in Decipher Script. He can no longer use ranged ledgermain to sleight of hand at a distance? Wha? Like I said, sometimes it does make sense, such as prerequisites to cast spells and losing ability to cast spells would disable spell based abilities, but sometimes they don't, like an assassin forgetting how to sneak attack or poison someone.
Findail 02-05-07, 09:10 AM	I really think it's about time that WoTC implemented the common house-rule that you CAN'T use spells or items to meet PrC requirements. The "Ring of Evasion" example is a case in point. The Fochluchan Lyrist is a powerful PrC that's balanced by its entry requirements. So why should a magic item allow the character to skip two levels of Rogue? If that houserule was finally made official, the problem described in the OP would hardly ever arise. Indeed, alignment-shift is about the only condition that's likely to interfere with PrC development: and, then, I'd rule that you keep everything except powers which are "holy" (or whatever) in nature.
Tanus 02-05-07, 12:01 PM	I really think it's about time that WoTC implemented the common house-rule that you CAN'T use spells or items to meet PrC requirements. The "Ring of Evasion" example is a case in point. The Fochluchan Lyrist is a powerful PrC that's balanced by its entry requirements. So why should a magic item allow the character to skip two levels of Rogue? If that houserule was finally made official, the problem described in the OP would hardly ever arise. Indeed, alignment-shift is about the only condition that's likely to interfere with PrC development: and, then, I'd rule that you keep everything except powers which are "holy" (or whatever) in nature. I think that it's balanced to use items/temporary effects since those things are easy to lose or suppress. If that happens you become useless, whereas the person who took classes to meet the prereqs won't have to worry as much.
Zherog 02-05-07, 12:22 PM	I'm a case-by-case guy. Heck I typically ignore PrC requirements and prefer quest based entry into organizations that teach special skills, I was just wanting official/majority consensus for reference to official games or competitions/arguments on the boards. There is no consensus. I once intentionally sent the exact same question about this to Customer Service twice. Predictably, I got entirely different answers both times. So, basically, WotC doesn't know what they want the rules to be. You need to make your decisions on a case-by-case basis. Otto gave you some good general guidelines to help judge. Be fair, and try to inform your PCs of how you'll rule in each instance before it becomes an issue.
EvilVegan 02-05-07, 02:13 PM	Oh, from a DM standpoint I'm fine. I could care less about official rulings. Its more for on the boards so I don't make a character on the CharOp page that I get "yelled" at for. . . :P