Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gorgosaure 09-19-06, 10:35 PM	Analyse : I see often 6-8 strength, particularly with small peoples who pursue a career of wizardry… I see often 6-8 charisma, particularly among the (dwarves) fighters (great orator mode). I see often 8-10 wisdom, particularly among flavor rogues and optimized fighters and barbarians. I see often 6-8 intelligence among the fighters (again!) and their cousins, the barbarian (Half-orc) Occasionally, we can see 8-10 dex, great choice among the heavy fighters and priests… But… Have you ever seen a Constitution score less than 12!!!! Me? Never! Have you an explication ? -- English is not my native language. Be cool. ;)
Seerow 09-19-06, 10:39 PM	It's not uber, it's just the only stat EVERYONE needs. A Wizard couldn't care less about his strength. A Warrior in heavy armor doesn't care about dex. A Barbarian needs intelligence like a Wizard needs a hole in the head. Wiz/Sorc don't need Wisdom. Most other classes can ignore it too if they don't mind low Will Saves. And nobody except Bards, Paladins, and Sorcs need Charisma. At all. Even the social based Rogue can do pretty well without it.
Kevtar 09-19-06, 10:42 PM	Two simple letters... H P ;)
Gorgosaure 09-19-06, 10:54 PM	It's not uber, it's just the only stat EVERYONE needs. Ok ok.. It's a great shame. With the point buy system per exemple, I'm not sure that constitution should have the same cost as charisma. Moreover, I would say that constitution is even better than strength. At my opinion, there is a balance problem.
Seerow 09-19-06, 11:00 PM	But if you make Charisma cheaper, Sorcerers suddenly become overpowered. If you make Con cost more, you make it nearly impossible to play a tank type. Are you going to impose a -2 constitution penalty on every player ever in a stat-rolling game? There is no balance problem here. Just a case where a stat is useful to everyone, rather than the usual case where SOMEONE will want to dump the stat. Honestly, tell me, does everyone in your campaigns play Dwarves exclusively and never touch elves, because of the Con bonus/penalty? If there was a balance problem, this would be the case.
was_fired 09-19-06, 11:02 PM	It isn't that constitution is always the best stat. In fact it is almost never the best stat. Constitution just happens to be the second or third most important stat for almost every class. Want a front line fighter? Okay that is Str and Con. Want a primary caster? That's mental score then Con (some argue Dex then Con). Want a paladin? Str / Cha / Con. Only long distance fighters can afford to drop Con below their third highest stat (wisdom is a good #3 for them since it helps will saves). That said I am still proud of my 1st level psion who had 13hp. :)
Gorgosaure 09-19-06, 11:34 PM	But if you make Charisma cheaper, Sorcerers suddenly become overpowered. If you make Con cost more, you make it nearly impossible to play a tank type. Are you going to impose a -2 constitution penalty on every player ever in a stat-rolling game? There is no balance problem here. Just a case where a stat is useful to everyone, rather than the usual case where SOMEONE will want to dump the stat. Honestly, tell me, does everyone in your campaigns play Dwarves exclusively and never touch elves, because of the Con bonus/penalty? If there was a balance problem, this would be the case. I don't want to contest your point of view: It is even highly valid. The balance problem is more a flavor problem. 2-3 days ago, I helped one my player (Dwarf Wizard) writing his background. It was interesting and many good ideas sprout from our brains. One part of his background was that his wizard was puny and of an unhealthily pale. At the creation stage my player said: “But then, on reflection, I decided to put a 16 in constitution. I give up the puny state from the background, we will think later at another solution. Wizards have too low hit points, without a little constitution, you're a dead wizard.” The game mechanics won the fight against the flavor! :twitch:
Fromost the Grimm 09-20-06, 12:22 AM	At my opinion, there is a balance problem. I don't think so, and would further suggest that the observation/trend you're referring to is more due to the world these characters live in, and what they do, than any gameplay/balance issue. In a non-combatitive, role-playing heavy campaign -- such as a play-by-email game -- everyone would want a decent Charisma score, because character interaction was the crux of the game. In a campaign with a more detailed/more life-like combat mechanic, Dexterity would be more important because not-getting-hit would be significantly more important than losing-x%-of-your-hps. Because that was what 'adventuring' would be all about in that world . . . . . . but in your generic Dn'D setting, adventuring is usually about sticking your sword into things, which trying to prevent them from sticking their claw/sword/axe/talon/teeth into you, all measured using a 'hit point' system that arbitrarily 'measures' life/energy. Thus, Constitution is ubiquitously important, as it generically effects the stat in which 'life' is measured in this game.
Silverthumb128 09-20-06, 12:35 AM	Two simple letters... H P ;) Harry Potter? I can't recall any instance in which he really needed a high Constitution, though I imagine it was helpful in Quidditch. :D As far as Constitution, well, yeah, its probably the stat I favor above others in most builds. Or at the least, its my second-favored. So many things rely upon it, but at the same time, its extremely rarely used in offense. It won't really be uber until you can make a build in which you use it to kill people(I mean a lot, not just once/day, as per the Mineral Warrior).
Jhaelen 09-20-06, 04:10 PM	As far as Constitution, well, yeah, its probably the stat I favor above others in most builds. Or at the least, its my second-favored. So many things rely upon it, but at the same time, its extremely rarely used in offense.Exactly. I am always wary of classes that gain a lot of benefits from high Con. Psionics 3.0 was broken because of that. But in most cases, it's really the best choice for the second-highest stat. I don't think that's a problem, though. As a DM I encourage my players not to min-max, i.e. place at least a 10 in every stat. I think that's reasonable for player characters, they're supposed to be the heroes, they're larger than life. Puny and unhealthy - that's best reserved for the npcs. I can only imagine this to work if the campaign is heavy on role-playing and light on combat which is unusual in D&D. And then there's the problem of rolling hit dice: In every group I know, there has been one player who's simply unlucky when it gets to rolling hit points. If you consistently roll lower than average the character's really screwed. I don't like it, because it's the only part left in the game where bad luck can have such a high impact. So, having a Con bonus can help to alleviate this problem somewhat. It's plain and simply reasonable.
JulesCARV 09-20-06, 04:33 PM	I don't see much reason for leaving your dexterity score below 12, even if you're a cleric or paladin, unless you have bad rolls or a really tight point buy (in the low 20s).
Bulletproof_Condom 09-20-06, 06:19 PM	But… Have you ever seen a Constitution score less than 12!!!!Yeah, lots of times. They're called NPCs. Constitution represents endurance and general health. Normal people can have Con scores of 8, 6, 4, etc. But adventurers need to be in great shape just to survive.
Forgember 09-20-06, 07:14 PM	I miss the days of 3.0 when I could start out as a Dwarven Wizard with a Toad familiar and have a 22 con, add in the toughness feat and thats a 13 hp first level Wizard. Dwarves RULE!!:D
Pandaemoni 09-20-06, 07:36 PM	But if you make Charisma cheaper, Sorcerers suddenly become overpowered. I would suggest that sorcerers are automatically underpowered as it is because they rely on Charisma...they don't even have a whole lot of charisma based class skills. Think of it this way...wizards rely on intelligence. For every point a wizard invests in INT, he gets the same benefit that a sorcerer gets investing a point in CHA, but the wizard also gets skill points as a side benefit and a boost to many of his class skills. Same goes for most non-Charisma-dependent classes. They get both a boost to their primary abilities and a host of side benefits (higher saves, better AC, better carrying capacity, etc). So I am not sure that sorcerers so become "overpowered" if Charisma is made somewhat less expensive.
Bionisam 09-20-06, 07:42 PM	I miss the days of 3.0 when I could start out as a Dwarven Wizard with a Toad familiar and have a 22 con, add in the toughness feat and thats a 13 hp first level Wizard. Dwarves RULE!!:D I totally agree, I'm an 8th level Dwarven Cleric, and I have 68 HP! With a Dwarven waraxe, fullplate and shield. AC 21, I own in melee and magic!
Neutronium_Dragon 09-20-06, 09:11 PM	That's more of a problem with the sorcerer than with Charisma. Take a beguiler with high Charisma - you're definitely getting your stat points worth out of that one. I'm not sure that I'd say that Con is always the second or even third highest stat. To some extent it depends on how many valuable stats a class has. Some of them are primarily dependent on only one or two other stats, in which case there's lots of point-buy room for Con. When you're dealing with something like the paladin, the monk, or the swordsage, though, they've got enough demand in other areas that Con often ends up ranked #4 or even #5 (or at least tied with others for a higher position).
Nom 09-20-06, 10:37 PM	I've played PC in D&D computer games with Con sub-10, and been fine as long as I remembered that I didn't have many hit points. My wife played a Con 8 tiefling rogue/monk from ECL 3 through to ECL 7 and was fine except for the time she got poisoned. There are significant advantages to having 12+ Con, but it's by no means mandatory.
Roivas 09-20-06, 10:54 PM	I've actaully played a character with a Con of 6. He was a elven wizard with a few deformity feats to up his Dex, but dropped his Con. He wasn't too impressive in melee, so he just never went near the stuff, until he became a lich.
FeceMan 09-21-06, 02:03 PM	Completely off-topic, but... "It is true that I have sent 6d10 points of damage through the head of my best friend, and yet I hope to show by this statement that I am not his murderer" --Daniel Upton, "The D20 on the Doorstep" Needs more definitive source. But, I do agree with it--his friend should've grabbed a cloak of resistance or something to up his Fort saves. Humans just can't be shot in the head and not expect to have to make a save against massive damage.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-21-06, 02:11 PM	Just think about Constitution as like oxygen. It doesn't matter unless you don't have enough. Then it matters a lot. Constitution doesn't really give you great returns for having a bunch of it, but it punishes the **** out of you for having too little. The other ability scores, not so much.
Ath'kethin 09-21-06, 06:22 PM	The game mechanics won the fight against the flavor! This statement pretty much summarizes 3rd edition D&D.
Bruunwald 09-21-06, 07:09 PM	At the creation stage my player said: “But then, on reflection, I decided to put a 16 in constitution. I give up the puny state from the background, we will think later at another solution. Wizards have too low hit points, without a little constitution, you're a dead wizard.” The game mechanics won the fight against the flavor! :twitch: Ahhh.... here's the real reason for the thread. Yes, it's easy to feel slighted when you've worked so hard at some non-mechanical aspect of the game, only to have a player ruin it for the sake of stuffing his codpiece. But this is the nature of the game. You can't let that influence you into a bad house rule or confusing online discussion. You just have to roll with this stuff, suck it up, and move on. I have a player who dumped three of his stats against my good advice, then ubered Con for his gnome wizard, and then was caught cheating while rolling hit points, on top of that. He ended up with as many HP at 11th level as the paladin (the only fighter type in the party). Sure I hate his stinking guts sometimes, but I don't nerf the game or make up house rules about it or anything. ;)
Nom 09-21-06, 08:40 PM	The game mechanics won the fight against the flavor!Alternatively, the player realised that a puny wizard has serious longevity problems in an adventuring career. Yes, it's rather bizarre when the D&D ruleset supports "realism" flavour over "heroics" flavour, but it seems to have happened in this case.
Otto the Bugbear 09-21-06, 09:50 PM	Just think about Constitution as like oxygen. It doesn't matter unless you don't have enough. Then it matters a lot. Constitution doesn't really give you great returns for having a bunch of it, but it punishes the **** out of you for having too little. The other ability scores, not so much. QFT
IbanezNinja 09-21-06, 09:58 PM	The game mechanics won the fight against the flavor! Yeah, but the thing is that your character concept may be the fragile wizard, but if he gets hit by a lucky crit or happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time he's gonna get slain. And as an adventurer, you KNOW you are gonna be doing dangerous things, so unless it's gonna be an extremely rp heavy rules light game I see no reason to dump con. It's the stat that most directly affects you if you dump it.
angryman 09-21-06, 10:32 PM	I once had a Dwarven evoker wizard who was known for his inhuman toughness. He ended up with, I believe, 28 CON at about level 12. (That's 108HP from the bonus alone) He never failed a fort save. However, there are more ways to kill a PC than damage, hell, this character was killed by a will save.
Gorgosaure 09-22-06, 06:33 AM	Yeah, but the thing is that your character concept may be the fragile wizard, but if he gets hit by a lucky crit or happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time he's gonna get slain. And as an adventurer, you KNOW you are gonna be doing dangerous things, so unless it's gonna be an extremely rp heavy rules light game I see no reason to dump con. It's the stat that most directly affects you if you dump it. Ok this sounds right. However I'm disappointed to see that this is not recommended to play a heroic fragile wizard (or any other classes) in a generic d&d game. Tell me if I'm wrong but the hit points are not only a measure of good health, they’re also a measure of luck and capacity to dodge injuries. Maybe constitution has too much influence… We can find heroes with a fragile health: Raistlin, Elric, etc. Gorgo
Otto the Bugbear 09-22-06, 07:03 AM	However I'm disappointed to see that this is not recommended to play a heroic fragile wizard (or any other classes) in a generic d&d game. Well, it is harder to play a dead heroic wizard. Which is what he'd become with a very low Con score. Looks like roleplay won out over everything else in this case. He actually wants to roleplay the character as something other than maggot food. Cheers Otto :)
babysamurai 09-22-06, 07:05 AM	Actually, I’ve always preferred a high Dex. Plus, Dex affects your Ref saves, AC, Initiative, ranged attacks, some of the best Skills etc. ...I’d rather not get hit in the first place.
MerlintheTuna 09-22-06, 08:12 AM	We can find heroes with a fragile health: Raistlin, Elric, etc. Being unfamiliar with the character myself I may be mistaken here, but it's been mentioned on the boards before that as long as Raistlin has his red tea concoction or whatever, he shows no signs of poor health. If that's the case it's little more than the usual 10-12 CON wizard with a nice little roleplay flavor added on the top.
babysamurai 09-22-06, 08:17 AM	Being unfamiliar with the character myself I may be mistaken here, but it's been mentioned on the boards before that as long as Raistlin has his red tea concoction or whatever, he shows no signs of poor health. If that's the case it's little more than the usual 10-12 CON wizard with a nice little roleplay flavor added on the top. In 1st edition, Raistlin had a 10 Con. In 1st and 3rd edition, Elric has a 5 Con (without Stormbringer of course).
Issabella 09-22-06, 08:42 AM	The only time I have ever "dump stated" con was when I was making a wizard who was going either for lich or Green star adapt, but that is horribly horribly meta gaming on my part and should be flogged. :(
Scion of Coldshard 09-22-06, 11:07 AM	a Wizard needs a hole in the head. Hey.. that isnt fair.. who told you my wizards PATH TO ULTIMATE POWER :weep:
claypigeons 09-22-06, 11:50 AM	The only time I have ever "dump stated" con was when I was making a wizard who was going either for lich or Green star adapt, but that is horribly horribly meta gaming on my part and should be flogged. There is nothing wrong with planning ahead. If that were the case, every dexterity based fighter should be flogged...
Seerow 09-22-06, 12:15 PM	Hey.. that isnt fair.. who told you my wizards PATH TO ULTIMATE POWER :weep: The Ithllid over there who did it a few thousand years ago. :D
OravennasBrother 09-22-06, 12:20 PM	I too have seen remarkably few characters with low constitution. Particularly Wizards. With as has been noted the exception of those who think they can somehow get changed to undead and remain PC's (Riiight - well not when I DM) I have a player who dislikes High strength (while understanding its advantages) yet prefers to play finesse based melee characters (female player with lithe female Fighters as characters) but because she takes longer killing opponents, she cannot afford a low constitution. That is perhaps the ONLY reason why I am tempted to have players roll their attributes - yet even then unless someone has VERY poor rolls (or insists on playing a MAD character with mediocre rolls) Constitution will end up 12 or more. This phenomenase is one of the reasons I prefer to see teh attributes and thier modifiers each treted separately. Yes it then requires one to look up the moifier for an attribute, but it could reasily make Constitution less the "must have at 12" attribute simply by restricting Con based HP bonus to scores of 15+
FRRC 09-22-06, 12:31 PM	Charisma gets kicked in the balls for its terms of use. Strength: Melee Attack Bonues, Melee damage, Skills, Trip/Grapple, Carrying capacity. Dexterity: Ranged attack bonus, AC, Reflex, Skills, Initiative. Constitution: HP, Fortitude, Skills, Resisting harsh conditions (Hunger, Drowning, etc) Intelligence: Spells, Skills, Skill points, languages. Wisdom: Spells, Will, skills. Charisma: Spells, skills. Infact, all the Mental stats are lesser incomparison to the Physical stats depending on how you look at it.
Nom 09-23-06, 07:37 AM	This phenomenase is one of the reasons I prefer to see teh attributes and thier modifiers each treted separately. Yes it then requires one to look up the moifier for an attribute, but it could reasily make Constitution less the "must have at 12" attribute simply by restricting Con based HP bonus to scores of 15+Which, as well as messing up the considerably more elegant mechanic than 1st/2nd Ed, basically means that you think a +1 Con is equivalent to a +2 to +3 Dex. For most classes, this is IMO laughable. Given a choice between +3 Dex / +0 Con or +0 Dex / +1 Con, I doubt most players would think twice before picking the former. The designers seem to be of a similar mind: DMG pg 173 states that +2 racial (+1 bonus) Dex or Str is worth -2 racial Con or -2 racial to two mental scores, while +2 racial Con is matched by -2 racial to one score. Hit points are nice, but they're not the be-all and end-all. The easiest way to compensate for less than stellar hit points is the obvious technique of "don't get hit". Most second-line characters treat their hp as an emergency backup; it's only characters who plan to be damaged (eg barbarians) who draw heavily on hp on a regular basis. Conversely, the classic error for a front-line combatant is to dump Wis for Con, or more specifically to dump Will for hp. Get hit by a save-or-"die" and you better hope you have a buddy to neutralise it or all those pretty hp are wasted.
Steidas 09-23-06, 09:37 AM	I had a 3rd level Mage with 6 Con. I had 4 hp at level 3. I never EVER got into the front line because I knew I was going to get my ass kicked BIG TIME. I also had a friend who played a Sorcerer with 8 con. We were level 18th and my Wizard/Monk/Fighter/Duelist had more hp than the party fighter, and he barely reached the 40 hp. And we never really had a problem. Since I was the "dangerous one" (there was a rumor saying that not even Gods could kill me), everyone centered their attacks on me, and I had great Fortitude, Lightining Reflexes, Iron Will, Arcane Defence, Magic Items all over, so I resisted pretty well, more than enoguh to let him maximize/empower/quicken all Meteor Swarms he needed. ... Still, putting a low con is a NO NO for most classes. That mage I created wouldn't have gone past Level 7th.