Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rage King 12-25-07, 06:09 AM	I'm going to starting up a new campaign soon, with one of my players wanting to focus a lot of his character into crafting and building both magical items, as well as a host of constructs. I have a few questions though and am in need of a few suggestions : 1. The player wants to roll a warforged artificer, though this could be equally asked about undead and other creatures. Warforged (and other creatures) do not require any form of sleep. Could a character devote more time in to crafting or building a magical item to speed up the creation process. If so, by how much? 2. How exactly do you advance constructs as far as costs go? I was thinking of just taking the cost as a fraction of the contructs HD, but I'm not quite sure if this is accurate. For instance, say I build an Iron Golem. The base cost in gold is about 80,000 gp, which equates the HS cost to about 4,444 gp per HD. If I wanted to construct a huge-sized Iron Golem (25 HD), mechanically the cost would be a little over 111,000 gp (and a new XP cost of 8,888 XP). Is this right? 3. Are there any forms of mechanics to simulate experimental crafting? I was thinking of building some tables to use to roll random mishaps and research gains while crafting items. For example, while building the golem above, my wizard decides to 'think-outside-the-box', casting a few of the spells needed in the creation a little differently or in a different order and adds in a few gears or parts here and there. It might be that the Iron Golem goes berserk once animated, but I might even find a way to lower the XP cost of Iron Golems I make. For each experiment failure there might even be a percent gain against finding the same problem (ie. the 'bad' stuff could be lower on a list, and the percent gain might allow for less chance of failure with modifiers based on level, skills, and other things). Any thoughts? Suggestions?
Sarella Starshine 12-25-07, 10:43 AM	1) any creature not needing sleep cannot spend extra time crafting. Remember, even creatures that sleep can only craft 8 hrs a day, so that leaves them with a spare 8 hrs per day where they are not crafting. (if you are wondering where it explicity states that, it is in the DMG on page 283 second to last paragraph under the 'creating magic items' headline. 2) In the MM under the golem entry (pg 134) there is a sub-section called 'construction'. This is before they start detailing individual golems, and it states that the market cost is an additional 5,000gp per HD that you want to add (and 50,000gp if size increased). The xp cost is 1/25 of the new market price minus the cost of any special materials. So, you will add another 2500gp and 200xp per HD added. 3) there are no offical rules, but I am sure and will not be at all suprised if you can find some on the house-rule forums. If not, it should not be too hard to go over to either that forum or the DM forum and hash out a set of rules that would be fun, but not abusable ;).
Dragonlord20000 12-25-07, 11:52 AM	As for number three, it sounds like a really cool idea. I say work with your player and when you come up with something post it here. Just make sure the benefits it can give aren't to fantastic and the failures are too devastating or your player may get frustrated or overpowered.
Rage King 12-25-07, 02:01 PM	1) any creature not needing sleep cannot spend extra time crafting. Remember, even creatures that sleep can only craft 8 hrs a day, so that leaves them with a spare 8 hrs per day where they are not crafting. (if you are wondering where it explicity states that, it is in the DMG on page 283 second to last paragraph under the 'creating magic items' headline. I knew I had read that somewhere, but couldn't remember if it was just a house rule I'd made years ago, or something I had seen. Regardless, thanks for the heads up about that and the HD. However, thinking about the rule, I'm not sure I understand it. Specifically, why. I already know my player is going to ask, and I'm not sure I can come up with a believable answer (I don't want to use "Just because"). Theoretically I suppose I could say warforged (and other creatures like undead) and, umm...less crafty and require more time to build? No, that doesn't quite sounds correct either. Another thought you might think is that they can only work for 8 hours a day becaue it numbs the mind. Again, I see this as little isse for the mind of a warforged (who naturally find themsevle things to keep buy with). I think I'll explain to him that the process of magically creation is delicate, with most items only withstanding so much working and crafting. Anything more than about 8 hours a day runs the risk of warping the item (ie. adding a curse) or even destroying it. As part of my 'experimentation' tables maybe a 'rushing magical creations' could be a catergory. A ad hoc idea as well is to allow a feat which allows the player to build faster. <shrugs> Now, that being covered, what about non-magically creations? As for number three, it sounds like a really cool idea. I say work with your player and when you come up with something post it here. Just make sure the benefits it can give aren't to fantastic and the failures are too devastating or your player may get frustrated or overpowered. Thanks. The experimentation process will probably have deffering categories as well, so that players can decide just exactly how risky they'd like to be. Big projects might be too risky, but for HUGE payoffs (for instance, my Iron Golem). As I stated in this post I might have a process where players can rush their work as well. With minor items during a little downtime a caster might take a chance from time to time (for example, if he's waiting a day or so and has extra gold kicking around). A few plot elements or adventures might even come from such experiments, with NPC 'mad scientists' pushing the limits of new constructions.
Sarella Starshine 12-25-07, 05:48 PM	If you want, just increase the craft DC for doing a 'rush job'. Sure, it will get done faster, but the more you rush it, the higher the chance of botching it. For example: a clay jug. If you take your time, you can make sure that you have the bottom sealed up nice and tight to prevent leaks. However, if you rush the job, it will have a greater chance of leaking.
Rage King 12-25-07, 06:54 PM	If you want, just increase the craft DC for doing a 'rush job'. Sure, it will get done faster, but the more you rush it, the higher the chance of botching it. For example: a clay jug. If you take your time, you can make sure that you have the bottom sealed up nice and tight to prevent leaks. However, if you rush the job, it will have a greater chance of leaking. A clay jug sure, but there's not sure 'rush jobs' for magical items. The main arguement (with somewhat good reason) my player has about crafting is that regular folk who sleep, etc, work about 8 hours a day. Mind you, I can't see why a person couldn't just decide to work longer hours (I am talking about the Craft skill work only), though I imagine there might be a Fortitude roll in order to resist fatigue (which might discontinue progress, or give a penelty on the roll). It wouldn't be a 'rush job' so much as a more grueling one. Hmmm. Maybe it might be more interesting and balancing to add a DC bonus for each additonal 8 hours a character works on the thing he is attempting to build. For instance, a +4 circumstance bonus for each additonal 8 hours. For each addition 4 hours of work, the character must make a Fortitude save, similiar to a forced march. So : For each hour of crafting beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from crafting becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It’s possible for a character to craft into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard. Creatures with the endurance feat apply their bonus as appropriate. So, if I used this rule, a warforged character might be able to work longer, but it might also disable oneself if pushed too hard. Look good?
mycroftb 12-25-07, 07:26 PM	I would think it's more mental exhaustion than physical exhaustion. If it was simple assembly-type crafting, I'd say warforged could run 24 hours a day. But more complex things are more mentally draining, and after 8 hours they could really use a break to cool off some, even if they don't have to rest tired muscles.
Rage King 12-25-07, 08:11 PM	I would think it's more mental exhaustion than physical exhaustion. If it was simple assembly-type crafting, I'd say warforged could run 24 hours a day. But more complex things are more mentally draining, and after 8 hours they could really use a break to cool off some, even if they don't have to rest tired muscles. Well, Constitutions and mentality aside, there are constructs that can be created that can Craft themselves (for instance, Tin golems). These are some of the creatures my player wishes to make. These creatures won't tire or go mad at all (as far as I know).
Sarella Starshine 12-25-07, 09:43 PM	If you are talking about the crafting homoculi that an artificer can get: all they do is craft for the 8 hrs instead of the artificer, therefore letting the artificer go out and do things instead of being stuck in his/her laboritory. I would consider working on anything beyond the normal 8 hrs as doing a 'rush job' as you are trying to get the item created in less time than normal. The chances of failures and flaws do increase because you are no longer mentally 'fresh', regardless of magical or non-magical creation. I would not declare a warforged to be 'immune' to such fatigue, as it would be just as mind numbing to them as it would be to any 'fleshy'. However, there is a feat in the ECS book (found on page 52: Exceptional Artisan) that allows a person to acctually reduce the ammount of time crafting a magical item by 25%. The warforged in your game can take that feat. (Since, you are using both a race and a class from that book, chances are you can use that feat as well ;). You can just explain it as being able to stay mentaly 'fresh' longer, so he is able to work that much longer on his items. (There is also one for xp reduction and cost reduction as well. insanely useful feats for an artificer to have.)
Rage King 12-26-07, 01:23 AM	If you are talking about the crafting homoculi that an artificer can get: all they do is craft for the 8 hrs instead of the artificer, therefore letting the artificer go out and do things instead of being stuck in his/her laboritory. Indeed, I believe this is the one he's discribing (I haven't actually taken a look at it yet). Now is this magical crafting, or just crafting? Regardless, there's ways to create constructs that can produce things via the Craft skill, such as the Tin Golem (From Dragon Mag 341). I'm not 100% sure, but I think these things do had a form of intelligence. Aside from that though, I just can't see why, mechnically, they can't Craft more than 8 hours a day. I do like the idea of the 'rushed' job though. I'll suggest that feat to my player. It seems like something he'll want. :D Thanks.
Sarella Starshine 12-26-07, 08:45 AM	sadly, i dont think i have that issue of dragon ( I may though, I was a suscriber for several recent years), so i do not know what the stats of the Tin Golem are. all the details of the craft hommoculi should be in the ECS, (I am opperating on less than 3 hrs of sleep right now, so I have not bothered to get my copy and find it for you because chances are I will never see the damn thing), but they are usually used for crafting magical items while the artificer is away doing things like adventures ;). Because the hommoculi do have ranks in Craft skills at the time you make it, you can have it craft mudane things assocciated with that craft skill if you really wanted to. I think its more of a balance issue. It reduces the usefulness of the time reduction feat if all an artificer needs to do is build the craft hommoculi and have it do the job in 1 day what it would take a non-artificer in 3. If you really want an excuse as to why even constructs such as the Tin Golem or the craft hommoculi are subject to such limits, use the 'magical energies can only take so much manipulation on that scale before they snap, and when they snap, the backlash can be anything from a simple minor curse on the item to a full blown lab explosion destroying everything in a huge catalysm.' excuse.
Belkar 12-26-07, 01:55 PM	1. Keep in mind - even a warforged needs 8 hours of "rest" (ie: doing nothing else to regain his artificer infusions for the day...). As for magical crafting, it's implied that the crafter can't subject himself or the item to such magical strain for longer than 8 hours in a day. The same "reasoning" is why a caster must "rest" (sleep or no... just "resting" his mind and body) for 8 hours to regain the ability to cast. 2. Sarella got ya answered. But if he's makin' an artifcer, it sounds like he's wanting to make a Dedicated Wright (ECS), a little clay hommunculus that's much less expensive than a golem, and does your crafting for you, so you can "adventure" while he spends your XP and gold and 8 hours a day to craft. Literally, though... it's the same as you doing it... you just "let him do it" with your skill checks and whatnot while you do something else. But the little guy can still only work 8 hours a day. 3. Check out the Forgotten Realms campaign setting books... the one dealing with the underdark has a PrC that is a mechanical crafter. It details some really good rules for this... and the points it makes are ones you need to follow. Firstly, he shouldn't be able to craft something that can't be duplicated by a spell cast by a wizard or cleric of his level. He either, a) can't make the craft DC yet, or b) can't afford the base price. If he can, though, it needs to simply replicate a magical effect produced by a spell capable of being cast by another character of his level. Don't invent new mechanics or abilities. Even tell the player, "just pick a spell to mimick". Spells have been tried and true tested for balance. Use this. He's simply generating the same effect without magic.
Rage King 12-27-07, 03:28 AM	I can see that casters do need rest, but warforged themselves do not. Barring the idea that it was magical crafting, I can't see why anyone couldn't build longer than 8 hours a day. The rules do suggest building an item quicker, but I see that more like rushing the job than putting more time into it. It might be noted that a full days work has the Craft check roll x the DC in copper pieces. So, it might be rationalized the for each 8 hours this would apply. For a creature that doesn't need to sleep, eat, etc that works for a full day therefore would have triple the output. So say my Tin Golem (Craft weaponsmithing, skill +6) average out at a roll of 10 (bringing the check to 16). While making a longsword, the Tin Golem makes progress at 240 copper pieces in 8 hours (or about 16% of the total work needed to build the sword). Working non-stop, the golem crafts 720 copper pieces in 24 hours (or about 48%). This is all with averages of course. Is this possible? Also, a Tin Golem costs 3,400 gp to make (not buy). If given the above task and the 1/3 cost of building longswords, a Tin Golem would work its building costs off (if you had buyers for the 15gp longswords) with 227 longswords and 473 days of non-stop work. Those longswords would also cost over 1,300 gp to make, etc, unless you had means on aquiring "free" ore. In short, you'd still be in the hole. It'd take a few years, but it would eventually work itself off. Damn. It'd be cheaper to pay a 2nd level specialist (see DMG 2) to build them (or whatever), maybe. If the specialist worked 8 hours a day with a +24 check per day (+14 skill mod + 10 check average) he'd do 360 copper of work a day and taking just above 4 days to make a longsword. The work would cost you 8 gold and the materials would be 5, so 13 gold in total with a profit of 2 gold over about 4 days. In 20 days the same specialist would make you about 5 longswords, giving you a profit of 10 gold. In a year, about 120 gold in profit. Not bad. Not good, but not bad. A character could technically shell out say, 13 gold for material costs and specialist crafting, and at the end of 4 days get the 13 gold back, plus 2 gold if he sold the longsword. If you say, did this 10 times over a 20 days you could score about 100 gold profit.
Belkar 12-27-07, 10:17 AM	I can see that casters do need rest, but warforged themselves do not. Barring the idea that it was magical crafting, I can't see why anyone couldn't build longer than 8 hours a day. The rules do suggest building an item quicker, but I see that more like rushing the job than putting more time into it. It might be noted that a full days work has the Craft check roll x the DC in copper pieces. So, it might be rationalized the for each 8 hours this would apply. For a creature that doesn't need to sleep, eat, etc that works for a full day therefore would have triple the output. This is an interesting train of thought, and I see where you're coming from... but even warforged are not machines (though they might appear it). The RAW doesn't have checks break down into work-by-hour for a reason. No matter how good the check, it takes a full day to make something. Anything. The 8 hour thing represents how long a mind can go without getting fatigued doing something of this nature. And warforged minds are as fragile as many fleshies. So, it's not a physical strain we're accounting for, but a mental one. Now... if you have a "mindless" golem (such as your Tin Golem) crafting... then maybe this isn't an issue. But as a DM, I'd never let a PC profit by that. The rules for item creation need to remain constant for all PC's, regardless of race or type. If a PC wants to "build" a builder to circumvent those restrictions... then my answer would be no.
Rage King 12-27-07, 11:27 AM	Even with just 8 hours under your belt, it could be reasoned a character of any race could just rest for 8 hours and get back up again for another 8 hours. I do understand, there should be, mechanically, a, well, mechanic in place. It just seems somehow strange. Even in the description of the warforged (Races of Eberron) it suggests warforge need to keep busy mostly, if not all the time. Even if the mental strain of doing something over and over, I suppose technically you could always switch to another Craft. Mechanically, a warforged could use a Profession skill to work for 8 hours to make a few silver, switch to using a Perform skill for 8 hours to earn a few more, then work through the night on a Craft skill. After that it's back to the shop or wherever. So, a 1st level warforged say, Rogue (max ranks of 4), with 12 Int and 12 Cha would breakdown like this with a average 10 roll on a day - Profession (whatever) check 15 = 7.5 gold per week (or about 1 gp 7 cp daily) Perform (whatever) check 15 = 1d10 sp/day (or 5 sp on average) Craft (say, a iron pot) check 15 x10 (DC) = 1.5/day - 3 sp (cost of materials) = 3 pots daily with 12 sp/day profit. Total (averaged) = 1 gp, 7 sp, 7 cp daily. No sleep for the wicked but they make a pretty good profit. Sort of. A specialist can make more than that in 8 hours. Regardless, even if the character had a mindless drone do the work, it really isn't that much gold. In my example of the Tin Golem (building swords) it takes so long to get a profit back it probably wouldn't be worth it anyhow. I think the player just wants the 'feel' of robots in a workshop working for him. :D
Belkar 12-27-07, 11:33 AM	I think the player just wants the 'feel' of robots in a workshop working for him. :D Then, dude, you're the DM. You can do anything... especially if it's just fluff. If he just "wants the feel of robots in a workshop working for him," then fine! Give him that! Just make sure the mechanic doesn't change. All his "little 'bots" should get as much done for his as a dedicated wright hommunculus (ECS). As long as the fluff doesn't alter the crunch, you can make him happy... :)
Rage King 12-27-07, 12:03 PM	I think he mentioned the dedicated wright hommunculus but is reluctant to build too many of them (if he can build more than one at all). In the off chance of a large amount of them dying he might die himself. On a side note, are there any mechanics to generate how much a character or his hirelings (or followers) could receive from stripping a mine? I suppose it would depend on the mine as well...
pigknight 01-04-08, 12:21 AM	The guy is gonna be like level 8 when his friends are level 12.