Contemplating coming out of retirement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Contemplating coming out of retirement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
retireddndr
10-26-03, 10:14 PM I'm an old school gamer contemplating coming out of retirement. I haven't played D&D since the late '80s. After browsing these boards do I assume correctly that all my AD&D stuff is now "junk" and would have to be replaced?

Are my dice still usable? I see this d20 talk and wonder.

Thanks
Mike the DM
10-26-03, 10:28 PM Run away. While you still can.

Like you, I gave up gaming for RL sometime around 1988 or so. Then a couple of years ago I made the mistake of walking into my FLGS...

...and found a new way to dispose of my disposable income.

What really bites is that back in the day, when I was a struggling student, buying books and modules was a patience game, a birthday and holiday celebration. Now that I'm a working stiff, I actually can go out and buy stuff on the day it's released...

...dear Gawd help me.

:twitch:

(Kidding aside? Rediscovering my interest in this game has been a blast. You don't need the new game - I often find myself wishing I still had all my old 1e AD&D books, dogeared pages, broken spines and all - but like me you may find that the current iteration of the game gives your imagination new places to explore and the mechanics to get you and your players there.)
Pallin Rahl
10-26-03, 10:43 PM Well, your AD&D stuff is not "junk", but it is not directly applicable to the current system.

The core system / game mechanics took an evolutionary jump when 3rd Edition came out. D&D 3.5 was recently released - offering mostly tweaks to the system.

So if you're wanting to get back into D&D, I suggest you grab a copy of the D&D 3.5 Players Handbook, Dungeon Master Guide, and Monster Manual - and you'll be good to go. There are tons of d20 System products out there (the core system behind D&D 3/3.5), both official and unofficial (via the d20 open gaming liscence)... but all you ever truly need to play D&D 3/3.5 is the PHB, DMG, and MM. The rest is optional. Personally I've bought a ton of it ...and much of it has definitely enhanced my games... but I wouldn't say that any of it is essential.

The mechanics have changed, but the "heart" of the game has not... and if you hop into D&D 3/3.5 with an open mind you'll find that though much has changed... much has stayed the same (at least in a general sense).

...and of course, if you don't want to spend a single dime or learn any new rules, you could always run an AD&D game :) ...but IMHO you may be missing out on an evolved system that you may find even more enjoyable and flexible. :)

I started playing D&D with AD&D and later moved on to D&D 3E, when it started up, and have been with it since. IMHO 3E is a much more solid, flexible system than AD&D (though I sill have my fond memories of back then hehe).

...oh, and of course the same dice are still used d4, d6, d8, d10, d12 and d20. So you'll be just fine there :) [...though you won't find yourself touching the percentile dice much, if ever :p ]

Either way, welcome back (if you're game) :)
Edymnion
10-26-03, 10:53 PM If you're thinking about getting back into the game, you need to decide if you want to play the "Keep up" game, or if you want to get everything in one fell swoop.

3.0 was the first release of third edition, and its the one that has 95% of all the 3e printed material published.

3.5 is a half-revision somewhere between a rules clarification and 4th Edition, but there is very little out for it. Three core rulebooks... and thats about it.

With 3.5 just out, chances are you can find the core 3.0 books either on sale at your local gaming store, or a full set of Core Rulebooks cheap at a used book store.

Basically, do you want to go with the vast bulk of 3e published material out now and just play that, or do you want to go 3.5 and hope it gets a similar amount of support in the reasonable future? Personally, I'd go 3.0 (like my sig says), because thats where the material is. 3 core rulebooks, 5 "splatbooks", a few extra books here and there, and a couple of setting books, and you've got everything you need to play with the new rules, and the 3.5 stuff isn't too hard to convert backwards into 3.0. Easier than starting 3.5 and converting the bulk of published material forward, anyway.
Cog
10-27-03, 03:34 AM Your old stuff is not "junk". You could look around for a group that wants to play AD&D - I'm sure that there are plenty around. :)

However, you may want to pick up a copy of the 3.0 PHB (or 3.5), as you are more likely to be able to find a group playing that. :)
aldymnor
10-27-03, 05:36 AM To answer your question, yeah it's junk. Junk isn't useless though, so let's not call it that.

If you want to update your collection to the latest (and debatably greatest) version of the game, you'll have to purchase the D&D 3.5 edition books. Yeah they don't say "revised" anymore; they gave into the annoyingly popular Software market to draw in a little more of those players.

So you'll have to buy those - there are three core books. After that, you'll find all your dice are useful, save the d30 (if you played 1e).
jasper
10-27-03, 01:50 PM If you can't find enough players willing to play 1st edition, try picking up just the players handbook and playing at the local game shop until you get your feet wet.
Dice are the same but most rolls are now d20 instead of mixture.
High good low bad
Skills are like NWP but mean something ex bluff a guard, craft a sword.
Feats are combination of NWP and some special ablities. Ex two weapon fighting is open to most classes now.
Kronk LaSworda
10-27-03, 02:00 PM Originally posted by retireddndr
I'm an old school gamer contemplating coming out of retirement. I haven't played D&D since the late '80s. After browsing these boards do I assume correctly that all my AD&D stuff is now "junk" and would have to be replaced?

Are my dice still usable? I see this d20 talk and wonder.

Thanks

Well, I will preface my post by saying that I am realitively new to RPGs. BUT, some of my friends have been playing since the late 1970s and have seen many systems come and go. That said, I can provide you with some Hear-Say.

#1, your dice are not junk. D20 is just the name of the system. You still need d4s, d6s, d8s, etc.

#2. Is your old stuff obsolete, not really.

I currently play with two systems: D&D 3.0 and Hackmaster.

D&D 3.0 is a comparatively straight-forward game. AC goes up as it gets better, the resistance to your spells are based on your level, you level very fast, and any race can be any class. This leads to a ton of different character development paths, without even mentioning the prestige classes. There is a lot of resource material available for 3.0 and now 3.5 including splat books (class/race specifice guides), campaign settings, and even figures. The "Old Schoolers" in my group of friends play 3.0 with me, but like to tell us neophytes about the good old days, when men were men and elves could only be 12th level. While we refused to convert to 3.5, if you are planning on starting out with a new system, I would start with 3.5. Then, at least, you don't start "fresh" with a "dead" system.

Hackmaster is primarily based on 1st and 2nd edition D&D (Through a liscense with Hasbro, I think. Please don't quote me on that one.) with a few minor changes. It came out a few years ago and is produced by KenzerCo. There isn't nearly as many players or supplements as 3.0 or 3.5, but it is growing. The 4th spat book (on thieves) just came out and the Gazzateer is due out early next year. There are several modules already converted from the older editions, but you can actually just use the old modules with just a few changes (like giving all of the monsters a 20 HP kicker). In Hackmaster, AC gets lower as it improves, there are racial limits and restrictions for classes, there is a new system for tracking Honor, and there is a system for generating Quirks and Flaws for your character. The "Old Schoolers" love the feel of the game as it is based on the old rules. In fact, they were able to pick up the game much faster than us neophytes and help us along. There is a lot of humour in the game as it is supposedly a parody, but we treat it as an honest-to-goodness game with a solid rules system and are having a blast with it. We are playing sanctioned so that we can participate in tournaments, but that is not needed to have a good time with this game.

That said, you are much more likely to have multiple character deaths in Hackmaster than 3.0, all things being equal. I know that there are a multitude of causes that can affect such things (GMing style, Player style, general bad luck, etc), but hear me out. I play with the same group of guys. I have had the same GM for 3.0 and Hackmaster. He has over a dozen character deaths from Hackmaster and 2 from 3.0. And we played 3.0 for a year longer than Hackmaster.

Anyway, whatever game you choose, I am sure you will have fun with it. I am very glad that I started playing RPGs as I have made some very good friends through this outlet and have had many memories of our shared experiences that will last me for years and years.

Good luck with your group and welcome back to gaming.
Visceris
10-27-03, 02:26 PM The way that WotC is seeking to limit role playing in their products and licensed products you would be better off going with I.C.E. or the Hero System over d20.
diaglo
10-27-03, 02:37 PM your old stuff is not junk. but you also will have a harder time finding things to help keep your old stuff fresh or updated. it is no longer officially supported. you can try HackMaster www.kenzerco.com

or other fan based sites like www.dragonsfoot.org

or you can convert to the newer editions and stay here or d20 related sites like www.enworld.org and www.mortality.net
Mister Mayhem
10-27-03, 02:38 PM :rolleyes:

Yeah - try any roleplaying with WOTC stuff and a special WOTC ninja hit squad kick your doors down and steal your dice.

:bored:

More seriously, have a good read of the 3.5 SRD (some very nice versions here: http://3.5srd.com/ ), and see what you think.

I personally find it to be a much more cohesive ruleset than the earlier versions. And whilst non-combat isn't synonamous with role-playing, 3.5 ed characters tend to have better non-combat options than their AD&D counterparts, which can lead to more time spent on less hack-and-slashy plots, if that is what the players and DM want.
Tae Kwon Dan
10-27-03, 03:01 PM Originally posted by Mister Mayhem

Yeah - try any roleplaying with WOTC stuff and a special WOTC ninja hit squad kick your doors down and steal your dice.

Hey don't kid. I had them show up one time at my house. Luckily the phrase "weak like a ninja" was applicable. ;)

Seriously though, I think it would be worth it to go ahead and upgrade to a more recent version of the game (either 3.0 or 3.5.) For a brand new player, I say go 3.5 since that's the most current edition (I have some problems with it, but I think the best bet of a new player is to be on the current version.) Even if they don't support it with supplements like 3.0 eventually you could just port up the 3.0 supplements without too much of a headache.

Just my 2cp anyway.
airhead
10-27-03, 03:31 PM I "upgraded" about 2 years ago when my kids discovered the game. I also have a ton of 1e/2e stuff. I have found that I can run my old 1e/2e modules in 3e if the players are unaware. It takes a little more prep time on my (DM's) part to convert the monsters/encounters.

Your old DMG/PHB/MM are not very useful, but not worthless either.

See my sig for enworld's converted creatures. Big help in bringing old monsters "up to date".

Word of warning: old modules used to have ranges for players (4 to 6 of 3rd to 5th level - for example). I have found that after converting, most of the modules are tougher than originally designed. (the example would now read 4-6 of 5th/6th level).

The biggest difference is the multi-classed pc's. They used to be average of the two classes where now they are a sum of the two classes.

Welcome out of retirement.
mickshrimpton
10-28-03, 08:06 AM Originally posted by Visceris
The way that WotC is seeking to limit role playing in their products and licensed products you would be better off going with I.C.E. or the Hero System over d20.
You can roleplay with 3E?
diaglo
10-28-03, 08:39 AM Originally posted by mickshrimpton
You can roleplay with 3E?

Yeah, but i prefer the 2ed version of the J Holmes edition.;)

edit: 2ed vs. 3e. read my sig for my fave.
ORC_Paradox
10-28-03, 09:18 AM Your older versions work fine. Just do not expect any "new" stuff to come out for them.

Or, alternately, you can pick up the latest material and convert it back to an earlier edition.
Vornth
10-28-03, 10:06 AM Hiya Retiree :D

No extra advice - I'm just in the same boat as you.

My wife and I have just ordered the three 3.5 core books from Amazon (best price we could find in UK) plus some new dice and a box of the new D & D miniatures to use for marching order/battle layouts etc. (The hardware was from www.legendgames.co.uk, they currently do not do international orders though.)

It should all arrive through the post this week and we are SO excited! I also took the advice of a couple of guys on this forum and downloaded a free game scenario to start us off.

By the way - how did you find your way back to getting 'bitten by the bug' again? With me, it was playing Baldur's Gate II on my PC.

Blessings.

Vornth
retireddndr
10-28-03, 10:13 AM The bug bit when I was surfing the net.

Thanks for all your input. You all have given me a lot to think about.

I gotta find a group before I can play. Don't wanna play with teenie boppers. (No offense, but I like a few beers when I play.)

Again, thanks to all who have posted replies.
Pallin Rahl
10-28-03, 03:06 PM Originally posted by retireddndr
...Don't wanna play with teenie boppers. (No offense, but I like a few beers when I play.)

Just because they can't drink doesn't mean that you can't drink. ;)
Kaine Greyshadow
10-28-03, 06:50 PM Originally posted by Pallin Rahl
Just because they can't drink doesn't mean that you can't drink. ;)
Heh, just as long as you're not the DM, that never ends well. Just play a dwarf, call it "method acting."
Vornth
10-29-03, 03:16 AM Originally posted by Kaine Greyshadow
Heh, just as long as you're not the DM, that never ends well. Just play a dwarf, call it "method acting."

::guffaw::

Blessings.

Vornth

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
retireddndr 10-26-03, 10:14 PM	I'm an old school gamer contemplating coming out of retirement. I haven't played D&D since the late '80s. After browsing these boards do I assume correctly that all my AD&D stuff is now "junk" and would have to be replaced? Are my dice still usable? I see this d20 talk and wonder. Thanks
Mike the DM 10-26-03, 10:28 PM	Run away. While you still can. Like you, I gave up gaming for RL sometime around 1988 or so. Then a couple of years ago I made the mistake of walking into my FLGS... ...and found a new way to dispose of my disposable income. What really bites is that back in the day, when I was a struggling student, buying books and modules was a patience game, a birthday and holiday celebration. Now that I'm a working stiff, I actually can go out and buy stuff on the day it's released... ...dear Gawd help me. :twitch: (Kidding aside? Rediscovering my interest in this game has been a blast. You don't need the new game - I often find myself wishing I still had all my old 1e AD&D books, dogeared pages, broken spines and all - but like me you may find that the current iteration of the game gives your imagination new places to explore and the mechanics to get you and your players there.)
Pallin Rahl 10-26-03, 10:43 PM	Well, your AD&D stuff is not "junk", but it is not directly applicable to the current system. The core system / game mechanics took an evolutionary jump when 3rd Edition came out. D&D 3.5 was recently released - offering mostly tweaks to the system. So if you're wanting to get back into D&D, I suggest you grab a copy of the D&D 3.5 Players Handbook, Dungeon Master Guide, and Monster Manual - and you'll be good to go. There are tons of d20 System products out there (the core system behind D&D 3/3.5), both official and unofficial (via the d20 open gaming liscence)... but all you ever truly need to play D&D 3/3.5 is the PHB, DMG, and MM. The rest is optional. Personally I've bought a ton of it ...and much of it has definitely enhanced my games... but I wouldn't say that any of it is essential. The mechanics have changed, but the "heart" of the game has not... and if you hop into D&D 3/3.5 with an open mind you'll find that though much has changed... much has stayed the same (at least in a general sense). ...and of course, if you don't want to spend a single dime or learn any new rules, you could always run an AD&D game :) ...but IMHO you may be missing out on an evolved system that you may find even more enjoyable and flexible. :) I started playing D&D with AD&D and later moved on to D&D 3E, when it started up, and have been with it since. IMHO 3E is a much more solid, flexible system than AD&D (though I sill have my fond memories of back then hehe). ...oh, and of course the same dice are still used d4, d6, d8, d10, d12 and d20. So you'll be just fine there :) [...though you won't find yourself touching the percentile dice much, if ever :p ] Either way, welcome back (if you're game) :)
Edymnion 10-26-03, 10:53 PM	If you're thinking about getting back into the game, you need to decide if you want to play the "Keep up" game, or if you want to get everything in one fell swoop. 3.0 was the first release of third edition, and its the one that has 95% of all the 3e printed material published. 3.5 is a half-revision somewhere between a rules clarification and 4th Edition, but there is very little out for it. Three core rulebooks... and thats about it. With 3.5 just out, chances are you can find the core 3.0 books either on sale at your local gaming store, or a full set of Core Rulebooks cheap at a used book store. Basically, do you want to go with the vast bulk of 3e published material out now and just play that, or do you want to go 3.5 and hope it gets a similar amount of support in the reasonable future? Personally, I'd go 3.0 (like my sig says), because thats where the material is. 3 core rulebooks, 5 "splatbooks", a few extra books here and there, and a couple of setting books, and you've got everything you need to play with the new rules, and the 3.5 stuff isn't too hard to convert backwards into 3.0. Easier than starting 3.5 and converting the bulk of published material forward, anyway.
Cog 10-27-03, 03:34 AM	Your old stuff is not "junk". You could look around for a group that wants to play AD&D - I'm sure that there are plenty around. :) However, you may want to pick up a copy of the 3.0 PHB (or 3.5), as you are more likely to be able to find a group playing that. :)
aldymnor 10-27-03, 05:36 AM	To answer your question, yeah it's junk. Junk isn't useless though, so let's not call it that. If you want to update your collection to the latest (and debatably greatest) version of the game, you'll have to purchase the D&D 3.5 edition books. Yeah they don't say "revised" anymore; they gave into the annoyingly popular Software market to draw in a little more of those players. So you'll have to buy those - there are three core books. After that, you'll find all your dice are useful, save the d30 (if you played 1e).
jasper 10-27-03, 01:50 PM	If you can't find enough players willing to play 1st edition, try picking up just the players handbook and playing at the local game shop until you get your feet wet. Dice are the same but most rolls are now d20 instead of mixture. High good low bad Skills are like NWP but mean something ex bluff a guard, craft a sword. Feats are combination of NWP and some special ablities. Ex two weapon fighting is open to most classes now.
Kronk LaSworda 10-27-03, 02:00 PM	Originally posted by retireddndr I'm an old school gamer contemplating coming out of retirement. I haven't played D&D since the late '80s. After browsing these boards do I assume correctly that all my AD&D stuff is now "junk" and would have to be replaced? Are my dice still usable? I see this d20 talk and wonder. Thanks Well, I will preface my post by saying that I am realitively new to RPGs. BUT, some of my friends have been playing since the late 1970s and have seen many systems come and go. That said, I can provide you with some Hear-Say. #1, your dice are not junk. D20 is just the name of the system. You still need d4s, d6s, d8s, etc. #2. Is your old stuff obsolete, not really. I currently play with two systems: D&D 3.0 and Hackmaster. D&D 3.0 is a comparatively straight-forward game. AC goes up as it gets better, the resistance to your spells are based on your level, you level very fast, and any race can be any class. This leads to a ton of different character development paths, without even mentioning the prestige classes. There is a lot of resource material available for 3.0 and now 3.5 including splat books (class/race specifice guides), campaign settings, and even figures. The "Old Schoolers" in my group of friends play 3.0 with me, but like to tell us neophytes about the good old days, when men were men and elves could only be 12th level. While we refused to convert to 3.5, if you are planning on starting out with a new system, I would start with 3.5. Then, at least, you don't start "fresh" with a "dead" system. Hackmaster is primarily based on 1st and 2nd edition D&D (Through a liscense with Hasbro, I think. Please don't quote me on that one.) with a few minor changes. It came out a few years ago and is produced by KenzerCo. There isn't nearly as many players or supplements as 3.0 or 3.5, but it is growing. The 4th spat book (on thieves) just came out and the Gazzateer is due out early next year. There are several modules already converted from the older editions, but you can actually just use the old modules with just a few changes (like giving all of the monsters a 20 HP kicker). In Hackmaster, AC gets lower as it improves, there are racial limits and restrictions for classes, there is a new system for tracking Honor, and there is a system for generating Quirks and Flaws for your character. The "Old Schoolers" love the feel of the game as it is based on the old rules. In fact, they were able to pick up the game much faster than us neophytes and help us along. There is a lot of humour in the game as it is supposedly a parody, but we treat it as an honest-to-goodness game with a solid rules system and are having a blast with it. We are playing sanctioned so that we can participate in tournaments, but that is not needed to have a good time with this game. That said, you are much more likely to have multiple character deaths in Hackmaster than 3.0, all things being equal. I know that there are a multitude of causes that can affect such things (GMing style, Player style, general bad luck, etc), but hear me out. I play with the same group of guys. I have had the same GM for 3.0 and Hackmaster. He has over a dozen character deaths from Hackmaster and 2 from 3.0. And we played 3.0 for a year longer than Hackmaster. Anyway, whatever game you choose, I am sure you will have fun with it. I am very glad that I started playing RPGs as I have made some very good friends through this outlet and have had many memories of our shared experiences that will last me for years and years. Good luck with your group and welcome back to gaming.
Visceris 10-27-03, 02:26 PM	The way that WotC is seeking to limit role playing in their products and licensed products you would be better off going with I.C.E. or the Hero System over d20.
diaglo 10-27-03, 02:37 PM	your old stuff is not junk. but you also will have a harder time finding things to help keep your old stuff fresh or updated. it is no longer officially supported. you can try HackMaster www.kenzerco.com or other fan based sites like www.dragonsfoot.org or you can convert to the newer editions and stay here or d20 related sites like www.enworld.org and www.mortality.net
Mister Mayhem 10-27-03, 02:38 PM	:rolleyes: Yeah - try any roleplaying with WOTC stuff and a special WOTC ninja hit squad kick your doors down and steal your dice. :bored: More seriously, have a good read of the 3.5 SRD (some very nice versions here: http://3.5srd.com/ ), and see what you think. I personally find it to be a much more cohesive ruleset than the earlier versions. And whilst non-combat isn't synonamous with role-playing, 3.5 ed characters tend to have better non-combat options than their AD&D counterparts, which can lead to more time spent on less hack-and-slashy plots, if that is what the players and DM want.
Tae Kwon Dan 10-27-03, 03:01 PM	Originally posted by Mister Mayhem Yeah - try any roleplaying with WOTC stuff and a special WOTC ninja hit squad kick your doors down and steal your dice. Hey don't kid. I had them show up one time at my house. Luckily the phrase "weak like a ninja" was applicable. ;) Seriously though, I think it would be worth it to go ahead and upgrade to a more recent version of the game (either 3.0 or 3.5.) For a brand new player, I say go 3.5 since that's the most current edition (I have some problems with it, but I think the best bet of a new player is to be on the current version.) Even if they don't support it with supplements like 3.0 eventually you could just port up the 3.0 supplements without too much of a headache. Just my 2cp anyway.
airhead 10-27-03, 03:31 PM	I "upgraded" about 2 years ago when my kids discovered the game. I also have a ton of 1e/2e stuff. I have found that I can run my old 1e/2e modules in 3e if the players are unaware. It takes a little more prep time on my (DM's) part to convert the monsters/encounters. Your old DMG/PHB/MM are not very useful, but not worthless either. See my sig for enworld's converted creatures. Big help in bringing old monsters "up to date". Word of warning: old modules used to have ranges for players (4 to 6 of 3rd to 5th level - for example). I have found that after converting, most of the modules are tougher than originally designed. (the example would now read 4-6 of 5th/6th level). The biggest difference is the multi-classed pc's. They used to be average of the two classes where now they are a sum of the two classes. Welcome out of retirement.
mickshrimpton 10-28-03, 08:06 AM	Originally posted by Visceris The way that WotC is seeking to limit role playing in their products and licensed products you would be better off going with I.C.E. or the Hero System over d20. You can roleplay with 3E?
diaglo 10-28-03, 08:39 AM	Originally posted by mickshrimpton You can roleplay with 3E? Yeah, but i prefer the 2ed version of the J Holmes edition.;) edit: 2ed vs. 3e. read my sig for my fave.
ORC_Paradox 10-28-03, 09:18 AM	Your older versions work fine. Just do not expect any "new" stuff to come out for them. Or, alternately, you can pick up the latest material and convert it back to an earlier edition.
Vornth 10-28-03, 10:06 AM	Hiya Retiree :D No extra advice - I'm just in the same boat as you. My wife and I have just ordered the three 3.5 core books from Amazon (best price we could find in UK) plus some new dice and a box of the new D & D miniatures to use for marching order/battle layouts etc. (The hardware was from www.legendgames.co.uk, they currently do not do international orders though.) It should all arrive through the post this week and we are SO excited! I also took the advice of a couple of guys on this forum and downloaded a free game scenario to start us off. By the way - how did you find your way back to getting 'bitten by the bug' again? With me, it was playing Baldur's Gate II on my PC. Blessings. Vornth
retireddndr 10-28-03, 10:13 AM	The bug bit when I was surfing the net. Thanks for all your input. You all have given me a lot to think about. I gotta find a group before I can play. Don't wanna play with teenie boppers. (No offense, but I like a few beers when I play.) Again, thanks to all who have posted replies.
Pallin Rahl 10-28-03, 03:06 PM	Originally posted by retireddndr ...Don't wanna play with teenie boppers. (No offense, but I like a few beers when I play.) Just because they can't drink doesn't mean that you can't drink. ;)
Kaine Greyshadow 10-28-03, 06:50 PM	Originally posted by Pallin Rahl Just because they can't drink doesn't mean that you can't drink. ;) Heh, just as long as you're not the DM, that never ends well. Just play a dwarf, call it "method acting."
Vornth 10-29-03, 03:16 AM	Originally posted by Kaine Greyshadow Heh, just as long as you're not the DM, that never ends well. Just play a dwarf, call it "method acting." ::guffaw:: Blessings. Vornth