Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arckon 10-14-04, 05:47 PM	Yeah, this is not strictly DnD, but since many people have these two characters in their games, I thought it appropriate enough. I was talking to a guy the other day, and he said that Elric and Conan were opposites of each other, and that Moorcock had defined Elric as the antithesis of Conan. As I considered it, it became quickly apparent that he was right. Conan was born in destitution and ascended into power. Elric was born to power and voluntarily entered into destitution. Conan was brawny cunning and despised magicians. Elric was naturally weak and dependant on magic to sustain him. Conan was irreligious, but had a simple values system that gave him strength of will. Elric was religious in that he constantly interacted with the gods, but despised them and found them and his moral values to be his undoing. Conan was a dark haired barbarian burned by the sun. Elric was an ephete albino who seemed uneasy in the daylight. That is all I came up with overnight (busy day), but thought I would start a thread here to see if anyone had any other contrasts that they observed.
Fixxxer 10-14-04, 06:22 PM	Conan was irreligious, but had a simple values system that gave him strength of will. I'd like to take exception with this one. Conan had an unshakable attachment to the values of the Cimmerian god Crom. Robert Howard just never wrote in too much that we would consider ventration of the deity because Crom was a god of strength, and to ask a favor or boon from him would be roughly equal to admitting you are too weak to accomplish the task on your own and are therefore unworthy of Crom's attention. In essence, Conan worshipped Crom by showing Crom that he was strong enough not to need to worship him.
Rian Lightblade 10-14-04, 07:37 PM	Indeed, the battle cry "Crom, count the dead" is very illustrative of how a Cimmerian warrior would worship Crom. By showing his strength and skill in battle, what better way could a warrior honor the god of strength? In addition to Fixxxer's little bone, I also have my own to pick. The fact the Cimmerians were lacking the "civilized" ways, that Aquilonians Ophirians, and Nemedians (for example) measured wordly wealth, does not mean that they were destitute by any means. They just measured wealth differently. By the way we are talking about Conan as he appears in R.E. Howard's unedited works, right?
Seeker95 10-14-04, 07:44 PM	I agree with everything except:Moorcock had defined Elric as the antithesis of Conan. Conan was irreligiousOthers have already addressed Conan's faith. I suspect Moorcock gave Conan no consideration whatsoever as he defined his archetype anti-hero.
Arckon 10-14-04, 10:18 PM	Umm, IIRC, Conan was a slave in his teens and used for some kind of gladiatorial fights, at least that is the most common version. If Howard did not write it this way, then obviously Moorcock would not be contrasting Elric with him in that respect. But I seem to recall that Conan was from meager circumstances and low social strata in his native land. If that is too politically incorrect to say, then maybe we can agree he was from the common class in a culture that had little physical wealth when compared to a member of the Melnibonean aristocracy? And whether you want to attribute Conans very infrequent appeals to his god for any reason, there is still a huge difference between his lack of a dialogue/spiritual relationship with Crom and Elrics with Arioch, a HUGE difference. Anyway, the other contrasts seem unchallenged, are there any others I have missed that anyone else cares to add?
Thorak 10-14-04, 10:35 PM	It's not so much Conan and Elric, as it is that Conan was deliberately intended to reflect the barbarian-king archetype in every way possible, and then Howard played with the implications, and Elric was intended to parody that archetype (a technique which is itself becoming an archetype) to similarly play with the implications. For a comparison of a less dissimilar comparison within the same series, I suggest the Coldfire Trilogy by C.S. Friedman. Gerald Tarrant and Damien Vryce, the two protagonists, are intended to be near-opposites. For instance, without ruining anything, Damien uses coldfire magic and prefers the dark throughout, while Damien (the main character, mostly) is constantly seeking warmth and light. Tarrant is well-educated and courtly, Vryce is experienced (as opposed to book-educated), and rough-hewn. Etcetera, etcetera. The truly interesting part of the series isn't that the characters exist, but that Friedman has them working together for a common cause, and finds believable reasons to do so while constantly straining their relationship through three books. The archetypes exist outside the characters. Whether it's Elric and Conan, Tarrant and Vryce, Raistlin and Sturm, it doesn't matter. No one author created them. It's only interesting seeing the new twists they put upon them.
Graz'zt, Prince of Shadow 10-14-04, 11:14 PM	One nitpick, Thorak - Sturm is not Raistlin's foil. That would be his brother, Cameron; it's not exactly a subtle theme of the books, especially the Legends trilogy. Sturm is better fit as a foil for Kitiara and to a lesser extent, Lord Soth. I agree that the archetypes exist outside of literature. At the risk of drawing WizO ire, one could see the archetypes creeping into this year's U.S. elections.
Thorak 10-15-04, 12:50 AM	One nitpick, Thorak - Sturm is not Raistlin's foil. That would be his brother, Cameron; it's not exactly a subtle theme of the books, especially the Legends trilogy. Sturm is better fit as a foil for Kitiara and to a lesser extent, Lord Soth. I agree that the archetypes exist outside of literature. At the risk of drawing WizO ire, one could see the archetypes creeping into this year's U.S. elections. Ahh, yes. I actually meant Caramon, but got the two big n' burlies mixed up. As for Lord Soth, I always thought he was best viewed archetypally as Kitiara's soulmate. Given the changes she went through. It's a horrible thing, but those sometimes make the greatest emotional impact. If she deserves Soth, that says a lot about her in implication.
caeruleus 10-15-04, 01:37 AM	I suspect Moorcock gave Conan no consideration whatsoever as he defined his archetype anti-hero. In "The Secret Life of Elric of Melnibone", Moorcock discusses how he was asked to write "some Conan-type stuff", and so he came up with a story about Conan. It turns out that the person who asked him to write this actually wanted something along the same lines of Conan, without actually being Conan. It was at this point that he decided to make up "a hero as different as possible from the usual run of S-and-S [sword and sorcery] heroes".
caeruleus 10-15-04, 01:38 AM	One nitpick, Thorak - Sturm is not Raistlin's foil. That would be his brother, Cameron; Another nitpick... that's Caramon, not Cameron :)
Count Arioch the 28th 10-15-04, 08:32 AM	And whether you want to attribute Conans very infrequent appeals to his god for any reason, there is still a huge difference between his lack of a dialogue/spiritual relationship with Crom and Elrics with Arioch, a HUGE difference. No lie. Wish that damn Elric guy would stop bothering me when I'm taking a shower or being intimate with the missus.
Fixxxer 10-15-04, 09:28 AM	Thorak, I don't want to offend, but most of what you've described about Conan seems to derive from the film Conan the Barbarian. I don't think it was a bad film at all, but it certainly doesn't synch up with Howard's writings in many ways. For example, I can't recall reading anywhere that Conan was ever a slave.
Thorak 10-15-04, 09:34 AM	Thorak, I don't want to offend, but most of what you've described about Conan seems to derive from the film Conan the Barbarian. I don't think it was a bad film at all, but it certainly doesn't synch up with Howard's writings in many ways. For example, I can't recall reading anywhere that Conan was ever a slave. No offense taken, because that wasn't me. I only said Conan is an example of the barbarian-king archetype, which he certainly is in Howard's works. While I haven't read them (yet, they're on my list), I've read of them, and have heard this mentioned by others. I certainly am not basing it on the films. The important things about Conan, as far as Howard's character went, were that he was mighty in battle, and uncivilized in demeanor. And the latter wasn't meant as a bad thing; it meant he couldn't hack running a 'civilized' country because of the bureaucracy and political backstabbing that wouldn't face his honourable, and deceitless, sword. At least, I'm fairly sure that over the course of a couple of Howard's books Conan takes over, and then loses, what is the renamed equivalent of Rome (as Cimmeria is the equivalent of the same-era Germanic tribes). Conan's failure is meant more as an indictment of that society than any flaw in Conan, which is one of the chief ways the barbarian-king archetype is used; it exemplifies simple-minded (as in not complicated or deceitful) honesty and personal strength over everything else.
Rian Lightblade 10-15-04, 12:57 PM	No offense taken, because that wasn't me. I only said Conan is an example of the barbarian-king archetype, which he certainly is in Howard's works. While I haven't read them (yet, they're on my list), I've read of them, and have heard this mentioned by others. I certainly am not basing it on the films. Be to read only the UNEDITED R.E. Howard stories only, if you want the real Conan (Del Ray Books has released one collection and is releasing another one soon.) The important things about Conan, as far as Howard's character went, were that he was mighty in battle, and uncivilized in demeanor. And the latter wasn't meant as a bad thing; it meant he couldn't hack running a 'civilized' country because of the bureaucracy and political backstabbing that wouldn't face his honourable, and deceitless, sword Not all once Conan kills Namedides on his throne and crowns himself king of Aquilonia. His rule while often contested was not a failure. He had fractious nobles to contend with (which he dealt with quite well as the fate of the Rebel Four helped to keep other potential rebel nobles in line), petitions of redress from his people, and diplomatic requests from other nations. Conan wisely appealed to Aquilonian tradition by holding court in the old capital of Tamar, residing in the palace of the popular King Vilerus. He won the love of the masses by lowering taxes and curbing abuses at the hands of the nobility and he instituted land reform to ease the pressure on the western frontier. He made treaties and alliances with some bordering nations. While betrayed and dethroned by the deceitful lords of Ophir, Conan escapes and regains his throne. At least, I'm fairly sure that over the course of a couple of Howard's books Conan takes over, and then loses, what is the renamed equivalent of Rome (as Cimmeria is the equivalent of the same-era Germanic tribes). Conan's failure is meant more as an indictment of that society than any flaw in Conan, which is one of the chief ways the barbarian-king archetype is used; it exemplifies simple-minded (as in not complicated or deceitful) honesty and personal strength over everything else. Actually Howard never wrote any Conan books. Over four years, seventeen Conan stories appeared in Weird Tales, some were lengthy enough to require serialization. Had the English publisher Pawling & Ness Ltd. not gone into receivership in 1934, "The Hour of the Dragon" would have been Howard's first book. It was later serialized as a five-part story in Weird Tales, and has since been published in book form under the title Conan the Conqueror. (Do not read this version as it is heavily edited. In fact don't read any of Howard's works which have DeCamp's and Carter's names on it) The Conan stories came to a chronological end with The Hour of the Dragon (In which Conan overcomes yet another attempt to take his kingdom, and finally takes a queen. In March 10, 1936 letter written by Robert Howard shortly before his death, hinted that Conan was: *"king of Aquilonia for many years, in a turbulent and unquiet reign, when the Hyborian civilization had reached its most magnificent high-tide, and every king had imperial ambitions. At first he fought on the defensive, but I am of the opinion that at last he was forced into wars of aggression as a matter of self-preservation. Whether he succeeded in conquering a world-wide empire, or perished in the attempt, I do not know. He traveled widely, not only before his kingship, but after he was king. He traveled to Khitai and Hyrkania, and to the even less known regions north of the latter and south of the former. He even visited a nameless continent in the western hemisphere, and roamed among the islands adjacent to it. How much of this roaming will get into print, I cannot foretell with any accuracy." *quoted from a letter quoted at rehupa.com While Howard never wrote of Conan eventual fate, one can conclude that by the maner in which he survived the numbers atempts on his life, betrayals and wars by other nations Conan rule was a long and eventuful one. The end of Aquilonia and the other Hyborian Kingdom is detailed in his Hyborian Age essay. Aquilonia had grown and absorbed many of the other great western kingdoms and pushes further to west and into to Pictish lands, setting its eastern border against the land of the Hrykanians, Soon it is besieged on both sides by Hrykanian expansion from the east and the Pictish hordes from the jungles of the west. In the middle of these great battles a third cataclysm rocked the world, reshaping it into the world we know today and thus ending the Hyborian Age.
Fixxxer 10-15-04, 04:43 PM	Be to read only the UNEDITED R.E. Howard stories only, if you want the real Conan (Del Ray Books has released one collection and is releasing another one soon.) Two more, actually. In addition, a book of stories about Solomon Kane has been released (I'm halfwayt hrough it...it's very good) and a book containing stories about Bran Mak Morn is comming soon (after the next Conan book, I believe). Thus far, nothing concerning Kull is on the docket to be released. I don't think Howard wrote enough stories to actually make up such a book. In fact don't read any of Howard's works which have DeCamp's and Carter's names on it Hell, L. Sprange DeCamp was a William Shakespere compared to Robert Jordan. Who the hell was dumb enough to give him a license to use Conan's name, anyhow?!?
Random bloke 10-15-04, 05:34 PM	Amongst other things, you might count Conan's and Elrics relationship with the people around them. All those that come in contact with Elric are as doomed as he is - including his people and eventually... a lot more. Conan, otoh, has contacts that manage to live through 2 stories, and actually benefits the world he exists in.
Rian Lightblade 10-15-04, 07:33 PM	Two more, actually. In addition, a book of stories about Solomon Kane has been released (I'm halfwayt hrough it...it's very good) and a book containing stories about Bran Mak Morn is comming soon (after the next Conan book, I believe). Thus far, nothing concerning Kull is on the docket to be released. I don't think Howard wrote enough stories to actually make up such a book. I forgot about the Bran Mak Morn collection (since I have a book that claims to be unedited, we'll see). I picked up the Solomon Kane collection as well, good reading. As for Kull, I haven't heard anything either. But I do have a book of collected Kull stories, I'll PM you with the info, if you're interested. Hell, L. Sprange DeCamp was a William Shakespere compared to Robert Jordan. Who the hell was dumb enough to give him a license to use Conan's name, anyhow?!? :heehee Yeah. I guess I can give him that, as much as I pains me to say it. I picked up the first book of the Wheel of Time series, read the first chapter, set it down and never looked at it again and I thought Stephen R. Donaldson has a hard read, at least his stuff captures your attention.
Rian Lightblade 10-16-04, 01:08 AM	For Fixxxer or anyone else interested,here is the info on that Kull book I was talking about. Title: Kull. The Fabulous Warrior King Publisher: Bantam Books Copyright: 1978 ISBN: 0553120190 It's got Glen Lord's name under two of the copyrights and Weird Tales for the rest. Which means that the stories should be the untouched, original Howard versions. An advanced sreach in amazon, under ISBN and Publisher, pulled up 21 copies.
Asta Kask 10-16-04, 05:26 AM	Amongst other things, you might count Conan's and Elrics relationship with the people around them. All those that come in contact with Elric are as doomed as he is - including his people and eventually... a lot more. Yep. Whenever he's in trouble, Elric will a) pull out that sword of his and clip the guy behind him, or b) call up some ancient power too powerful for him to control and hope it'll do him a favor. My theory is that Elric is an idiot.
Ongorth 10-16-04, 10:11 AM	Sorry guys, your twenty-seven years late on this one. David Sim's Cerebus already examined this one in intense, artistic detail. Sorry.
Random bloke 10-16-04, 11:10 AM	You know what's nice to add when you post something like that? A link (http://www.captaincomics.us/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t2145.html) or two (http://culturedose.net/review.php?rid=10003117). Besides a parody that spoofs both does not a character study make. Mmmk?
Rian Lightblade 10-16-04, 01:38 PM	Sorry guys, your twenty-seven years late on this one. David Sim's Cerebus already examined this one in intense, artistic detail. Sorry. Oh my god really! Well I guess we had better stop talking about it then. Since one person, 27 years ago (when i was One) already addressed the matter :rolleyes:
Seeker95 10-16-04, 01:42 PM	Oh my god really! Well I guess we had better stop talking about it then. Since one person, 27 years ago (when i was One) already addressed the matter. :rolleyes:He didn't say to stop talking about it. He said the analysis had already been done. Anyone thinking they are blazing new trails here is mistaken. Anyone having fun with the conversation is still free to do so.
Rian Lightblade 10-16-04, 01:49 PM	Ya well... I still find posts like that annoying. We're having a great discussion here and then someone pipes in with, "Hey somebody already did that!" and that's all they say. Arrrgggh I guess I'm still a little peeved about the snafu going on over at the RPGA boards. I'll apologize for the sarcasm.
Ongorth 10-16-04, 04:47 PM	Thanks chief. Thats all I'm saying, its really not new. If you want to know the exact issues, for your referance, I'll be glad to give them. Cerebus #1-13 (1978-1979) covers the Conan and Elric parody. And, yes, a parody does not make a "character study" as can be noted in many television shows and bad movies. However, Cerebus has a touch for examining the characters that most parodies lack. Rather than simply exagerrating a single or set of character features, Sim makes sure to ridicule the whole character and pits them directly at odds where the contrast becomes sharp. Be adviced that this is also a parody of the Conan comic, so if the tone seems Windsor-Smith than Howard, thats why.
Thorak 10-16-04, 10:34 PM	I have to step up and defend an author here, a wee bit. Robert Jordan was a great writer, and one of the best plot-writers I've seen in quite some time. Note the "was". The Wheel of Time, for anyone who took the time to get into it, quickly became a spiraling pit of complexity that still made sense in a strange way. Jordan had a knack for answering questions 2-3 books after he introduced the question, and introducing 5 or 6 new questions in that time, which kept you reading trying to figure it all out. There are prophecies he reveals in book 1 that still, in the most recent book, haven't been exposed for what they mean. However, he has some serious issues. First; he's getting old. This isn't itself a bad quality, but I feel he's getting bored of the Wheel of Time series. And it's several books from completion. The last few books have been sub-par, and getting more so. It's also possible he'll never finish it, either because he abandons the project from boredom, or dies before it's finished (IIRC, he's over 70 already, and he's taking 2-3 years a book). Second, while he has a great mind for plot and complexity, he has very little imagination. Most of his concepts are blatantly stolen from mythology, from the ogrish Ogier, to Shaitan (a middle-eastern term for Satan or a devil, and Shaitan fills that role in his world), to pretty much everything. Now, stealing ideas doesn't make for bad fiction. But when you use them blatantly, it's ridiculous. If he hadn't called his Ogier something that sounded like Ogre, and if he'd called Shaitan, say, Xarga, there'd be less room for complaint, because at least he's being imaginative enough to come up with new names. He's not the 'new Tolkien' the fanboys insist. But he's worth reading, if just for the plot intricacies. Just be aware you'll get frustrated with the books around book 7 on, though if you make it that far you'll push on because you need the answers to the questions he's raised.
angryman 10-17-04, 12:45 PM	But he's worth reading, if just for the plot intricacies. Just be aware you'll get frustrated with the books around book 7 on, though if you make it that far you'll push on because you need the answers to the questions he's raised. Too true. I was hooked on the first 6 books, I loved Lord of Chaos, then I just went...meh...this is getting repetitive. Every female character is a cardboard cookie-cutter hardass pain-in-the-butt. But I do like the first 6 books, they're really good.
Thorak 10-17-04, 03:57 PM	Too true. I was hooked on the first 6 books, I loved Lord of Chaos, then I just went...meh...this is getting repetitive. Every female character is a cardboard cookie-cutter hardass pain-in-the-butt. But I do like the first 6 books, they're really good. That's exactly what I mean. Characters started running together, especially the females (though the 3 main males are all becoming hardened warrior leaders, too). The plot's stalled; nothing of real important happened in the last couple books, not like it was going beforehand anyway. The slowed pace makes sense in some respects, since the various things that were going on have all stalled, but Jordan's response to that in earlier books was throw 18 new problems at them. Which he isn't any more.
Random bloke 10-17-04, 04:05 PM	I have to step up and defend an author here, a wee bit. .And seeing how you don't even bother defending his Conan books, this is on topic, how? :rolleyes:
DBlizzard 10-17-04, 08:44 PM	An early issue of Conan the Barbarian (reprinted at least once) had Elric meet Conan. It can actually be considered somewhat canon for Elric, since Moorcock himself came up with the plot. I'll have to dig up my issues. All I remember is that Conan was able to parry Stormbringer when the two inevitably clashed because he had a spell cast on his sword.
Thorak 10-17-04, 09:49 PM	And seeing how you don't even bother defending his Conan books, this is on topic, how? :rolleyes: I reserve my right to threadjack whenever I feel the need. And someone else mentioned Jordan first, and his wheel of time series as well. Ergo it wasn't so much a threadjack as a tangent.
Rian Lightblade 10-18-04, 12:06 PM	An early issue of Conan the Barbarian (reprinted at least once) had Elric meet Conan. It can actually be considered somewhat canon for Elric, since Moorcock himself came up with the plot. I'll have to dig up my issues. All I remember is that Conan was able to parry Stormbringer when the two inevitably clashed because he had a spell cast on his sword. No he was, I remember that story as well.