Copyright question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Copyright question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
OgreMonk
07-19-07, 12:14 PM I just picked up a copy of MMV and found a creature by the name of Shaedling. Now I am not saying that someone ripped me off or anything silly but this is the name of a race used in my campaign since about 1989.
If I were to ever publish anything, would I still be able to use the name? I can prove how long I have been using the name.

Thanks!!!
RobbyPants
07-19-07, 12:48 PM I'm not sure if the name itself is copyrighted, so it may or may not be a problem. Still, if you failed to copyright it, I doubt that you can now retroactivly claim rights to it. And even if you could, you'd probably be fighting a losing battle; one person lacks the legal resources of a large company.

I work for a small company, and one thing we're always worried about is patent infringement and invalidation. If a big company really wanted to steal a patent from us, all they have to do is start violating it, and we're left with two options:

Fight it, which would cost a fortune in legal expenses. The larger company can bury us in paperwork, where less than 1% of it pertains to the patent in question. Invariably, we'd lose this type of battle due to resourses.
Do nothing, in which our patent gets invalidated becasuse we didnt' challenge it.

Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I doubt there's much you can do.
Seeker95
07-19-07, 01:41 PM If I were to ever publish anything, would I still be able to use the name? I can prove how long I have been using the name.Nope. The MM IV is not OGL. Doesn't matter how long you've been using it. You didn't protect it.
Zherog
07-19-07, 01:49 PM I disagree with Seeker, partially, and for two reasons. I'll preface them by saying, though, that I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

1) You can't copyright a name (though you can trademark one). Nothing prevents you from publishing a creature called Shaedling; as long as yours is demonstrably different from theirs you should be OK. (though note that this might not keep WotC from suing you - as Robby mentioned, they have more resources available than you do)

2) You do not have to register a copyright to claim it (though it does make it a heck of a lot easier). You own the copyright to anything you write the moment the work is put on paper (or screen, if you have digital files). If you can truly demonstrate you made use of something called a Shaedling back in 1989, then you don't have a problem. (though, again, that may not keep WotC from suing you and burying you in paperwork if they choose to do so).

The best advice, of course, is to consult a copyright lawyer and let them answer the question for you.
OgreMonk
07-19-07, 01:55 PM I disagree with Seeker, partially, and for two reasons. I'll preface them by saying, though, that I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

1) You can't copyright a name (though you can trademark one). Nothing prevents you from publishing a creature called Shaedling; as long as yours is demonstrably different from theirs you should be OK. (though note that this might not keep WotC from suing you - as Robby mentioned, they have more resources available than you do)

2) You do not have to register a copyright to claim it (though it does make it a heck of a lot easier). You own the copyright to anything you write the moment the work is put on paper (or screen, if you have digital files). If you can truly demonstrate you made use of something called a Shaedling back in 1989, then you don't have a problem. (though, again, that may not keep WotC from suing you and burying you in paperwork if they choose to do so).

The best advice, of course, is to consult a copyright lawyer and let them answer the question for you.

The funniest part of this is that my Shaedling is a grey/black insectile-like aberration and sports wasp-like wings and an odd mouth structure that looks like it would inflict quite a nasty bite. Not too far off from the accompanying artwork.
Witch
07-19-07, 01:57 PM Zherog is correct. Copyrights don't require registration to be valid. Though to be fair, most people who ask these questions generally don't publish things for money. If you do do that, I suggest that you just change the name to avoid problems.
Seeker95
07-19-07, 03:40 PM You have misinterpreted my answer (understandably). Because the Shaedling is not OGL, attempting to use it in an RPG is going to be a violation of WotC's copyright (it is explicitly published in the MMIV; no "I can prove it" grey area).

And although you cannot explicitly copyright a name, the name of this creature-as-a-creature in an established RPG makes its use within any other RPG a blatant copyright infringement.

Although the OP may be able to provide evidence that s/he used this creature in his or her own personal campaign many years ago, s/he cannot defend it in the published-capacity that WotC can.

The name itself is not specifically what is at risk; rather, it is the use of this name as assigned to a creature in an RPG environment that is "protected". The OP will be hard pressed to prove s/he has not impinged on WotC's copyright protection if s/he attempts to publish a Shaedling in an RPG.
Shiftkitty
07-19-07, 03:44 PM Who published the Indiana Jones RPG? They tried to copyright "Nazi". I think it failed due to overwhelming historical evidence placing it in the public domain.
Zherog
07-19-07, 03:48 PM You can't copyright a term, phrase, or name. You copyright the entire work of art (writing, drawing, etc). You cannot copyright an idea - only the expression of that idea. You cannot copyright facts - only the expression of those facts.

Basically, I think you misunderstood something, Shiftkitty, or you're relaying an urban legend.
cwslyclgh
07-19-07, 05:44 PM Actually the makers of the Indiana Jones game (TSR?) did try to trademark the term Nazi (and failed) if I remember correctly, they could not copyright it though, as Zherog explained.

I am not a lawyer, but I am a writer, so here is how my understanding of how it works.

Because the Shaedling is not OGL, attempting to use it in an RPG is going to be a violation of WotC's copyright names can not be copyrighted (it is the reason that both marvel and DC comics can have characters with the same names Captain Marvel springs to mind), if a person wanted to publish an RPG monster called the Shaedling they could do it legaly, as long as that monster bore little to no resembelance to the one in MM4 (however as Zherog has stated that doesn't stop WotC from frivilously bogging that person down in court for a while hoping the person will give up and quite before the case is finaly thrown out).
Shiftkitty
07-19-07, 08:00 PM TRADEMARK! I'm sorry. Wrong word. Bad kitty.

"Heave starboard to avoid the iceberg, captain. Oh, wait. Port. Port. Port? Is port right or left?" **KEEEEEERUNCH!!!**
Kursk
07-19-07, 08:03 PM Nope. The MM IV is not OGL. Doesn't matter how long you've been using it. You didn't protect it.

Unless you have published s/g before MM IV came out and you used the name in that.
shadzar
07-20-07, 02:31 AM Harry Potter...now just listen to me before you jump onto berating me...

Harry Potter is a fictional character in the seires of books created by JK Rowling. everyone knows that. and this character has been made into movies.

well there was prior a movie called Troll, which had 2 Harry Potters in it. both are fictional works, but i have heard nothing of JKR being sued for using the name even though the movie Troll was released in 1986.

however Nazgul, was required to be removed from early D&D, as was a little fiasco with the Dieties and Demigods using the Cthullu and Melnibonean Mythoi.

the later was much more material than just a boys name. so depending on how close these things are related then it seems where the problems will lie. does your shaedling closely match the one printed in the WotC books?
Solaris
07-20-07, 02:43 AM well there was prior a movie called Troll, which had 2 Harry Potters in it. both are fictional works, but i have heard nothing of JKR being sued for using the name even though the movie Troll was released in 1986.That's nothing. Look what she did to Neil Gaiman:

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/8067/g1035600nk3.jpg
shadzar
07-20-07, 02:53 AM sadly i can't see that picture very good. why not a explanation?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OgreMonk 07-19-07, 12:14 PM	I just picked up a copy of MMV and found a creature by the name of Shaedling. Now I am not saying that someone ripped me off or anything silly but this is the name of a race used in my campaign since about 1989. If I were to ever publish anything, would I still be able to use the name? I can prove how long I have been using the name. Thanks!!!
RobbyPants 07-19-07, 12:48 PM	I'm not sure if the name itself is copyrighted, so it may or may not be a problem. Still, if you failed to copyright it, I doubt that you can now retroactivly claim rights to it. And even if you could, you'd probably be fighting a losing battle; one person lacks the legal resources of a large company. I work for a small company, and one thing we're always worried about is patent infringement and invalidation. If a big company really wanted to steal a patent from us, all they have to do is start violating it, and we're left with two options: Fight it, which would cost a fortune in legal expenses. The larger company can bury us in paperwork, where less than 1% of it pertains to the patent in question. Invariably, we'd lose this type of battle due to resourses. Do nothing, in which our patent gets invalidated becasuse we didnt' challenge it. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I doubt there's much you can do.
Seeker95 07-19-07, 01:41 PM	If I were to ever publish anything, would I still be able to use the name? I can prove how long I have been using the name.Nope. The MM IV is not OGL. Doesn't matter how long you've been using it. You didn't protect it.
Zherog 07-19-07, 01:49 PM	I disagree with Seeker, partially, and for two reasons. I'll preface them by saying, though, that I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. 1) You can't copyright a name (though you can trademark one). Nothing prevents you from publishing a creature called Shaedling; as long as yours is demonstrably different from theirs you should be OK. (though note that this might not keep WotC from suing you - as Robby mentioned, they have more resources available than you do) 2) You do not have to register a copyright to claim it (though it does make it a heck of a lot easier). You own the copyright to anything you write the moment the work is put on paper (or screen, if you have digital files). If you can truly demonstrate you made use of something called a Shaedling back in 1989, then you don't have a problem. (though, again, that may not keep WotC from suing you and burying you in paperwork if they choose to do so). The best advice, of course, is to consult a copyright lawyer and let them answer the question for you.
OgreMonk 07-19-07, 01:55 PM	I disagree with Seeker, partially, and for two reasons. I'll preface them by saying, though, that I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. 1) You can't copyright a name (though you can trademark one). Nothing prevents you from publishing a creature called Shaedling; as long as yours is demonstrably different from theirs you should be OK. (though note that this might not keep WotC from suing you - as Robby mentioned, they have more resources available than you do) 2) You do not have to register a copyright to claim it (though it does make it a heck of a lot easier). You own the copyright to anything you write the moment the work is put on paper (or screen, if you have digital files). If you can truly demonstrate you made use of something called a Shaedling back in 1989, then you don't have a problem. (though, again, that may not keep WotC from suing you and burying you in paperwork if they choose to do so). The best advice, of course, is to consult a copyright lawyer and let them answer the question for you. The funniest part of this is that my Shaedling is a grey/black insectile-like aberration and sports wasp-like wings and an odd mouth structure that looks like it would inflict quite a nasty bite. Not too far off from the accompanying artwork.
Witch 07-19-07, 01:57 PM	Zherog is correct. Copyrights don't require registration to be valid. Though to be fair, most people who ask these questions generally don't publish things for money. If you do do that, I suggest that you just change the name to avoid problems.
Seeker95 07-19-07, 03:40 PM	You have misinterpreted my answer (understandably). Because the Shaedling is not OGL, attempting to use it in an RPG is going to be a violation of WotC's copyright (it is explicitly published in the MMIV; no "I can prove it" grey area). And although you cannot explicitly copyright a name, the name of this creature-as-a-creature in an established RPG makes its use within any other RPG a blatant copyright infringement. Although the OP may be able to provide evidence that s/he used this creature in his or her own personal campaign many years ago, s/he cannot defend it in the published-capacity that WotC can. The name itself is not specifically what is at risk; rather, it is the use of this name as assigned to a creature in an RPG environment that is "protected". The OP will be hard pressed to prove s/he has not impinged on WotC's copyright protection if s/he attempts to publish a Shaedling in an RPG.
Shiftkitty 07-19-07, 03:44 PM	Who published the Indiana Jones RPG? They tried to copyright "Nazi". I think it failed due to overwhelming historical evidence placing it in the public domain.
Zherog 07-19-07, 03:48 PM	You can't copyright a term, phrase, or name. You copyright the entire work of art (writing, drawing, etc). You cannot copyright an idea - only the expression of that idea. You cannot copyright facts - only the expression of those facts. Basically, I think you misunderstood something, Shiftkitty, or you're relaying an urban legend.
cwslyclgh 07-19-07, 05:44 PM	Actually the makers of the Indiana Jones game (TSR?) did try to trademark the term Nazi (and failed) if I remember correctly, they could not copyright it though, as Zherog explained. I am not a lawyer, but I am a writer, so here is how my understanding of how it works. Because the Shaedling is not OGL, attempting to use it in an RPG is going to be a violation of WotC's copyright names can not be copyrighted (it is the reason that both marvel and DC comics can have characters with the same names Captain Marvel springs to mind), if a person wanted to publish an RPG monster called the Shaedling they could do it legaly, as long as that monster bore little to no resembelance to the one in MM4 (however as Zherog has stated that doesn't stop WotC from frivilously bogging that person down in court for a while hoping the person will give up and quite before the case is finaly thrown out).
Shiftkitty 07-19-07, 08:00 PM	TRADEMARK! I'm sorry. Wrong word. Bad kitty. "Heave starboard to avoid the iceberg, captain. Oh, wait. Port. Port. Port? Is port right or left?" KEEEEEERUNCH!!!
Kursk 07-19-07, 08:03 PM	Nope. The MM IV is not OGL. Doesn't matter how long you've been using it. You didn't protect it. Unless you have published s/g before MM IV came out and you used the name in that.
shadzar 07-20-07, 02:31 AM	Harry Potter...now just listen to me before you jump onto berating me... Harry Potter is a fictional character in the seires of books created by JK Rowling. everyone knows that. and this character has been made into movies. well there was prior a movie called Troll, which had 2 Harry Potters in it. both are fictional works, but i have heard nothing of JKR being sued for using the name even though the movie Troll was released in 1986. however Nazgul, was required to be removed from early D&D, as was a little fiasco with the Dieties and Demigods using the Cthullu and Melnibonean Mythoi. the later was much more material than just a boys name. so depending on how close these things are related then it seems where the problems will lie. does your shaedling closely match the one printed in the WotC books?
Solaris 07-20-07, 02:43 AM	well there was prior a movie called Troll, which had 2 Harry Potters in it. both are fictional works, but i have heard nothing of JKR being sued for using the name even though the movie Troll was released in 1986.That's nothing. Look what she did to Neil Gaiman: http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/8067/g1035600nk3.jpg
shadzar 07-20-07, 02:53 AM	sadly i can't see that picture very good. why not a explanation?